From your experience is ARIN really tightfisted with IPs? They require justifcation, but what is considered justification?

Do you need to launch a long off into a prolonged discourse regarding how your life depends on the posession of another IP?

I'm curious

thanks

They basicly only want you to use an IP for name servers and SSL certs.
They have a fairly detailed form that has to be filld out and maintained by a host or data center and more IP's can only be had when 80% of the ones already issued are in use for one of the reasons listed above.

Son in other words they do not want every web site in the world to have it's on static IP address. They want you to use name based hosting.

Originally posted by Monte
They basicly only want you to use an IP for name servers and SSL certs.
They have a fairly detailed form that has to be filld out and maintained by a host or data center and more IP's can only be had when 80% of the ones already issued are in use for one of the reasons listed above.

Son in other words they do not want every web site in the world to have it's on static IP address. They want you to use name based hosting.

This is false. They dropped their idea for name based virtual hosts long ago.

As long as you can justify the need and you have used IPs from your upstream then there is no issue.

-davidu

Originally posted by Monte
They basicly only want you to use an IP for name servers and SSL certs.
They have a fairly detailed form that has to be filld out and maintained by a host or data center and more IP's can only be had when 80% of the ones already issued are in use for one of the reasons listed above.

Son in other words they do not want every web site in the world to have it's on static IP address. They want you to use name based hosting.

Named based hosting was brought up, voted on, and lost out early last year. You are not required to use named based hosting.

I need a couple more IPs and i need some pointers on demonstrating my need. I want to be granted the IPs the first time.

I need a couple more IPs for the following reason: one of my clients wishes not to be hosted on the same IP as my adult site.

My site has a members section and due to its nature it would much easier to run if it was on a separate IP.

are those legitimate reasons, do you think?

=THanks

Originally posted by Jag


Named based hosting was brought up, voted on, and lost out early last year. You are not required to use named based hosting.

Hmmm have not heard that. Wonder why I am still having to fill out the justification ARIN forum every time I want to get a block of IP addresses then..

Guess I need to talk to my upstream. Can you point me to where that was dropped and you no longer have to use name based?

I hate filling out that form.

The rule has not been dropped but is "on a case-by-case basis". Try and request IPs from ARIN without good justification and they will not issue them. I know of companies who bought dead companies just for their IP space.

Originally posted by WoodShedd
I need a couple more IPs and i need some pointers on demonstrating my need. I want to be granted the IPs the first time.

I need a couple more IPs for the following reason: one of my clients wishes not to be hosted on the same IP as my adult site.

My site has a members section and due to its nature it would much easier to run if it was on a separate IP.

are those legitimate reasons, do you think?

=THanks

lol
well if you dont think your reasons are legit, then you could always just lie, and say you just bought newdomain.com and you're going to run ns1 and ns2, or just ns1 and ns2 on another box

and just say you need 1-2 ips for the ns's
:)

or say that you're goign to be running two name servers off your box for an existing domain
you're planning on transferring it

Thats what I was planning, but I have to go through my host to get more IPs. The conversation would go something like this.

Me: I need some IPs
Admin: no you don't you already have 5.
Me: Yeah I have 5, and the offer said 8.
Admin: the other three are for gateway
Me: good thing the offer said that.
Admin: its pretty obvious.
Me: As I said i need more IPs.
Admin: justify them.
Me: I need to setup a nameserver
Admin: you already have 2
Me: It is for a domain that I have hosted elsewhere, and plan on transferring
Admin: you are lying I saw your post on WHT
Me: this would be a hell of a lot easier if you would go along with me.

I'll give it a try anyway. thanks :)

Originally posted by Monte


Hmmm have not heard that. Wonder why I am still having to fill out the justification ARIN forum every time I want to get a block of IP addresses then..

Guess I need to talk to my upstream. Can you point me to where that was dropped and you no longer have to use name based?

I hate filling out that form.

You still have to justify ips, they are not just free to be handed out like candy. I was stating that named based hosting is not a valid reason for not getting more ip's.

Originally posted by Jag


You still have to justify ips, they are not just free to be handed out like candy. I was stating that named based hosting is not a valid reason for not getting more ip's.

HUH:confused:

What is a valid reason then?

websites, servers, name servers, cell phones, dsl, etc...the list goes on. I was just saying they arent going to say "you cant have any more becuase you should be using only named based hosting" , but you should have some named based hosting to show them you are making an effort to reduce your ip consumption.

So you are saying that I can just say I want IP's for websites and I can get them? No need to list reasons the websites need IP addresses?

I would assume that the more reasons, esp. legitimate reasons you give the more likely you will get the IPs you need.

do arin assign IP's to individual companies hosting / colo with a data center?. After ARIN assign IP's how they are brought into production.

And say after some time if I decided to switch from Data Center 1 to Data Center 2, can those IP's be routed towards new data center!

I was asking this just for knowledge.

A slight bend off topic
when is the new ip address system going to be coming out.

They will run out of ip sometime.

just wandering

Yeah thats true...whats stopping all these IP management guys from adopting IP v.6.0, there would be no dearth for IP and the justifaction for the IP space requirement also would not be required ??

Any obstacles for the IP v6.0 wide adotpion !?!
I have read at some places some ISp's are migrating to IPv.6.0, but could take a while for large scale adoption, right ??

Cheers

At the last of February, my company was forced into name-based hosting and was denied IPs even though I only had 2 free ones. I was pretty upset about it at the time, but am okay with it now. Since I converted to name-based hosting, I don't seem to have much of a problem getting IPs. Isn't that weird? It seems that it is easier to get IPs if you have a reseller program, as you can justify IPs easily (nameservers).

On a different note, a couple of months ago, Linux Magazine had an article on IP v6.0. They inferred that it is a done-deal and the industry will start conversion to that system soon. I, personally, don't know.

-Lamar

Did I miss it in this thread where someone with clue pointed out this has nothing to do with ARIN.

This guy wants a couple more IPs for his porn or his customer who doesn't want porn or whatever. :-)

Talk to your ISP. Get the IPs or switch ISPs.

ARIN won't even allocate less than a /20 these days I don't think.

As to the "oh my god we are running out of IPv4 space" comments -- we are not. We won't run out this year, we won't run out next year and we won't run out the year after or the year after. I can't predict the future, but I'm pretty sure we're all safe. As a last resort, taking an /8 back and breaking it down wouldn't be the end of the world.


-davidu

Originally posted by RackMy.com
The rule has not been dropped but is "on a case-by-case basis". Try and request IPs from ARIN without good justification and they will not issue them. I know of companies who bought dead companies just for their IP space.

Maybe they are giving you the run around? :)

From the director of ARIN (http://www.merit.edu/mail.archives/nanog/2002-06/msg00833.html)

-davidu

you can only route ip's through the same connectivity usually, if you try and change your ip's you asking your new provider to punch big hole in their dns, which is obviously not ideal.

You will notice that all registrys and getting a little tighter with ips, ripe, arin, apnic e.t.c you dont have any problems getting them but the proof process is a long and windey road due to the fact that theyre basically running out of them

This is why ipv6 is set to launch properly soon, some isp's will already root ipv6 addresses. At a RIPE conference i attended back in april they said there were enough ipv6 addresses for every grain of sand in the world or something (kinda hard to believe) hopefully they dont make the same mistakes as the launch of ipv4 where they allocated many ip's within the first few years and realise that theyre just wasting them......

How is it determined that an IP is 80% used? How many name-based domains is that?

Originally posted by RandyL712
How is it determined that an IP is 80% used? How many name-based domains is that?

Maybe I didn't make myself clear on that, what I meant was you have to use 80% of the IP numbers you have allocated to you before requesting more. At least that is my understanding, in other words they do not want you getting 100 IP numbers use 25 and then request a 100 more.

Originally posted by Monte

Hmmm have not heard that. Wonder why I am still having to fill out the justification ARIN forum every time I want to get a block of IP addresses then..


Well, you still have to justify allocations, but using non-name based Web hosting is not grounds for denying an allocation. For non-name based Web hosting, they may also ask why you aren't using name-based, and that is strictly to collect information, not to impose or imply any policy.

Of course, if you're just asking for more IPs from your colo provider or your dedicated server provider, then they can make their own rules, and sometimes that's based on their own misunderstandings of ARIN policy.

Kevin

Originally posted by jimnaro
you can only route ip's through the same connectivity usually, if you try and change your ip's you asking your new provider to punch big hole in their dns, which is obviously not ideal.


Their DNS? route ip's through the same connectivity? Huh?
*shakes head*

Originally posted by jimnaro
You will notice that all registrys and getting a little tighter with ips, ripe, arin, apnic e.t.c you dont have any problems getting them but the proof process is a long and windey road due to the fact that theyre basically running out of them

If you are a real ISP you can get IPs same-day. Look at the ARIN faq for emergency allocations. Most allocations that are fully justified and who are being requested by people who have requested before and know the process tend to be allocated within a few days. I know some people have lots and lots of trouble but it is usually bercause of lack of justification or not completing the application fully. I would guess the most common answer to first time applicants is "Talk to your upstream" to get more IPs.

Originally posted by jimnaro
This is why ipv6 is set to launch properly soon, some isp's will already root ipv6 addresses. At a RIPE conference i attended back in april they said there were enough ipv6 addresses for every grain of sand in the world or something (kinda hard to believe) hopefully they dont make the same mistakes as the launch of ipv4 where they allocated many ip's within the first few years and realize that they're just wasting them......

s/root/route maybe?

I think the IANA and ARIN/RIPE/APNIC's of today are a lot smarter than they were way-back-when. It shouldn't be a problem as you say, as long as they continue to be rational and efficient in their allocations.

:angry: ICANN is who we should be worrying about. :angry:

:D

-davidu

I was going to do the math, but I realized that I forgot the formula. How many domains can there actually be? I know at least a few million, if not billion.

IPv4: 2^32 = 4,294,967,296 IP Addresses (not bad)
IPv6: 2^48 = 281,474,976,710,656 IP Addresses (whoa :))

So that's how many grains of sand there are in the world. I always wonder when I'm at the beach... ;)


Assuming four billion people in the world (I don't know what the real number is), with IPv6 each person can have 70,368 IP addresses all to themselves. Yay! Time to allocate IPs to all your lightbulbs!

"281,474,976,710,656 IP Addresses"


There are far more than that. IPv6 is 128bit not 48 thus there'd be 340 undecillion or 340 trillion trillion trillion IP addresses. Basically that's 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 IP addresses.

And there's 6+ billion people in the world, I remember the 6 billionth one born being on the news a few years ago.

Originally posted by mushrew
"281,474,976,710,656 IP Addresses"


There are far more than that. IPv6 is 128bit not 48 thus there'd be 340 undecillion or 340 trillion trillion trillion IP addresses. Basically that's 340,282,366,920,938,463,463,374,607,431,768,211,456 IP addresses.

I'm writing a letter to ARIN right now in view of this information:

To whom it may concern:

I am requesting 239,849,543 IPs as I am running low. Don't give me that line about not having enough; I know you are lying. I shall expect them by this afternoon.

Your cooperation is anticipated and expected <==(my old boss loved to use that line).


So you think they will look favorably upon my request?:stickout

-Lamar

Originally posted by Thirdbrain
A slight bend off topic
when is the new ip address system going to be coming out.

They will run out of ip sometime.

just wandering

It's already out, but not many people (in comparison) are using it. You can get IPv6 addresses right now if you really wanted.

I don't see IPv6 being widely accepted any time soon. It's not compatible with IPv4, so software has to be modified to support IPv6. Most places are not in a rush to implement it, so hardly anyone's in a rush to support it. IPv6 implementation is going to take a while. Plus, I'm not sure if I can get used to IP addresses being like 3FFE:B80:2:1::18C8:C21B. :)

Plenty of IPv4 addresses are available. Millions are reserved, and millions are not in use. Also, I don't think Ford really needs 16 million IP addresses...

Back when IP managers such as ARIN were first founded, they handed our IPs like they were an endless resource. If you needed 257 IPs or more, you were immediately moved up to the next higher class and given 65,000 IPs (a little less than that don't remember the exact number). Big mistake. This is why ARIN's regulations are so stringent: while millions of IPs may not be in use, they are reserved and that's the point....you can't use them. ToastyX brings up a good point, however, lots of code will need to be rewritten to accept IPv6. That includes anything that checks whether an IP has been inputted correctly in the form of X.X.X.X

i'd say modify v4 to have 999.999.999.999 (if its possible, which i know better). that would be much better, and you would have billions more

Originally posted by dreamHOBO
i'd say modify v4 to have 999.999.999.999 (if its possible, which i know better). that would be much better, and you would have billions more

Yes... but then the software would still need to be updated, and that's mostly why implementing v6 is so slow...

Originally posted by dreamHOBO
i'd say modify v4 to have 999.999.999.999 (if its possible, which i know better). that would be much better, and you would have billions more

An Ip address is actually a single 32bit number but is written down as four 8 bit numbers separated by a dot (period to you guys over the water) which is easier for human consumption, plus it makes it easier to work on the bit boundaries for things like subnet masking (plus a lot else).

Hence....

http://217.206.205.3 (Our Website)

is exactly the same as....

http://3654208771

Hence the reason you don't see anything higher than 255 as an 8 bit number can only store 256 numbers (0 to 255).

Cheers

1) if you need new IPs you dont' talk to arin. just ask your isp/host/etc

2) justification just means proof that you're actually using your current IPs. so just list all the domains associated with each IP you have.

for example I use to be with catalog.com and had a dedicated server with 4 ips. I needed another block of 4 so I asked. they say justify it. so i listed every domain hosted on each of my 4 ips. (I had about 30 domains total distributed among the 4 ips) few hours later they gave me the new block. simple as that! :D

There is a real simple way that never fails of justifying more IPs but RIPE and i suspect ARIN make it clear that they would come down heavily on anyone posting it in a public forum.

With the current IP format, there are a max of 4 billion addresses because the max range is:
255.255.255.255, correct? What is the new v6 format?

Originally posted by markcastle
There is a real simple way that never fails of justifying more IPs but RIPE and i suspect ARIN make it clear that they would come down heavily on anyone posting it in a public forum.

uhhh? what? I'm not to familiar with how RIPE runs their organization I do know that ARIN is almost totally open book. Meeting minutes, policy, etc are all public.

So either speak up or please stop spreading rumors/lies.

And oh yeah, "I know how to get a million bucks easy, but I can't tell you."

-davidu

Originally posted by DavidU


uhhh? what? I'm not to familiar with how RIPE runs their organization I do know that ARIN is almost totally open book. Meeting minutes, policy, etc are all public.

So either speak up or please stop spreading rumors/lies.

And oh yeah, "I know how to get a million bucks easy, but I can't tell you."

-davidu

Look mate - you obviously don't know me or you would not accuse me of spreading rumours and lies. That is not something i indulge in. Search this or other boards and you will hopefully agree that i always try to answer questions helpfully and honestly.

I did say "RIPE and i suspect ARIN" - hence i hinted that i don't know if the same goes for ARIN or not.

There IS a way with RIPE that you can get IP addresses if you need them when you are a webhost and it IS quite simple.

My previous company obtained LIR (Local Internet Registry) status, which meant we were one of the companies that gave IP addresses out to smaller IP users such as webhosts so i do know what i am talking about.

What i am not prepared to do however is hand it to you (the whole hosting community) on a plate - If you REALLY do need IP addresses, go away - think hard about why a webhost would need IP addresses and cannot make do with purely name based hosting and i am sure the answer will come along. If not - then you do not need more IP Addresses - simple as that.

It would be irresponsible of me to undermine the policy of RIPE or ARIN when they are trying to conserve IP space by posting a way of getting lots of IP addresses on a public forum - all i am saying is that if you really need them - there is a way - go find it.

Originally posted by markcastle

If you REALLY do need IP addresses, go away - think hard about why a webhost would need IP addresses and cannot make do with purely name based hosting and i am sure the answer will come along. If not - then you do not need more IP Addresses - simple as that.


I just want to state one more time that ARIN does not require you to "justify" using non-name-based Web hosting. You can go to ARIN, show them client information for four thousand Web sites, and that justifies a /20. (Yes, they do NDAs.)

So if your idea is "just pretend you're giving everyone SSL" or something, there's no point. ARIN doesn't care, as long as you have the customers and will use the IPs.

Kevin

Originally posted by sigma


I just want to state one more time that ARIN does not require you to "justify" using non-name-based Web hosting. You can go to ARIN, show them client information for four thousand Web sites, and that justifies a /20. (Yes, they do NDAs.)

So if your idea is "just pretend you're giving everyone SSL" or something, there's no point. ARIN doesn't care, as long as you have the customers and will use the IPs.

Kevin

Exactly!

This markcastle guy is totally blowing smoke as far as I can tell. His "super secret" way is probably nothing more than claiming a need for SSL certs which is a totally valid and legitimate need.

As to his reason for not talking because he doesn't want to "undermine RIPE or ARIN" -- it's total BS -- he doesn't seem to realize these are open groups with open policies and they either approve or deny based on the applicant's needs.

I'm sure it's cool for him to think he has a secret though.

-davidu

Originally posted by RandyL712
With the current IP format, there are a max of 4 billion addresses because the max range is:
255.255.255.255, correct? What is the new v6 format?

IPv6 has eight hexadecimal sections separated by colons ranging from 0 to FFFF (65535).

For example: 3FFE:0B80:0002:0001:0000:0000:18C8:C21B


Small numbers do not have to be prefixed with zeroes.

For example: 3FFE:B80:2:1:0:0:18C8:C21B


One series of zeroes can be abbreviated with a double colon.

For example: 3FFE:B80:2:1::18C8:C21B


The hexadecimal is not case sensitive, so you can use lowercase letters.

For example: 3ffe:b80:2:1::18c8:c21b


I believe that information is basically correct, but I could be wrong since I haven't messed with IPv6 very much.

Wow... while that'll obviously add nearly endless amounts of IP addresses, what a pain! I can (now) easily remember a few IPs that I use regularly...

Why does Ford have 9,103,500 IP addresses?

They gotta beat Chevy SOMEHOW :)

Originally posted by IT Hosting
Why does Ford have 9,103,500 IP addresses?

They have much more than that. They have an entire class A, which is 16,777,216 IP addresses, as well as many smaller blocks. Why? Heck if I know...