What kind of software do you all use to keep record of your customers and if they pay in time etc. etc.

A url is preffered with each program :) Thanx.

For good recordkeeping, I would recommend Quickbooks Pro.
And if you don;t have a merchant account, you can get one with them that works with Quickbooks Pro to credit any invoices that the customer pays via CC.

The new version is nice in that it can email out invoices, and you can have the customer pay online as well.

Michael,

Do you have the newer version of Quickbooks ... 2001. I am thinking about upgrading and was wondering if you thought it was worth it. I would love to see an example of an email invoice if you could throw one my way.

Paul:

I do have it (upgraded from 2000) and will send you a sample invoice as soon as my office manager gets in. It will probably be tomorrow, though. She has a sick child today. I wish I knew how to access the darn thing. You would think that I should :). Actually, I do, but I don't want to screw up what she has done so far!

We use a piece of software we wrote inhouse.
It's available for free and can run on any server that has MySQL and PHP.

It's called CBMS.

Check out http://www.voxel.net

Click on software and then click on CBMS.

Cheers,

Where can i find Quickbooks Pro or other related software? How much it cost?

http://www.quickbooks.com/

It sounds to me like you may be looking for something online regarding software. Quickbooks is a desktop piece of software, with the Pro version having *some* online functionality... Just in case you wondering when you check out their site :)

Greg Moore

Oh by the way (in general)....

If you are ever tempted to use the Site Solutions package at Intuit (makers of Quickbooks), don't... I spent a great deal of time once getting a domain out of their clutches for a customer after the trial period was over...

Greg Moore

Originally posted by Starhost
What kind of software do you all use to keep record of your customers and if they pay in time etc. etc.

A url is preffered with each program :) Thanx.

http://www.optigold.com
http://www.hawk-i.com

you can also look at:

http://isp-lists.isp-planet.com/isp-invoicing/resources/

for about 50 more ISP/WSP billing/customer management/invocing software.

Whoops. Can't delete the post so I will edit to correct.

At first, I didn't find the word "software" at http://www.voxel.net/ -- and then I did. Life's like that. :D

[Edited by Website Rob on 03-24-2001 at 06:14 PM]

Any other programmes that can do the trick or are these really the only ones or best?

Hey NopZor,

It would be great if there would be a separate adduser file the new users could fill in themselves so it saves you time to do it yourself offcourse.
Many great things could be added and my question is if you are still working on it and if yes what new things are to come?
Maybe you want more suggestions for new implementations...

I installed it and I like it allready ;-) Any dutch people here willing to translate it?

Thank you,
Domenico

can i find any installation manual of the CBMS besides the readme file?

we are working (and about to release) a completely revamped version (*complete with documentation*). i won't bother advertising here, but let me know via email if you want to be kept up to date with when it comes out.

cheers,
raj dutt
voxel dot net, inc

YES!!!!!!

I don't understand more companies step into this sector and make Webhosting User Management software.

Many, many people are looking for these kind of programmes but no software company seems to notice it or care about it :-(

If someone could make a complete program with all kinds off functions and many variables so everyone could tailor the software to his situation this would be a massive hit.

Programmers think about this!

Domenico

I'm currently letting a programmer develop a delphi programm for me who will store all data of clients and make bills.

What options have to be in it?

We have been happy with BillAdmin...

http://billadmin.com

Suggested features:
1. A form for customer to sign up
- customer choose between transfer domain or signup new
- fill up information
- after signup link customer to instabill, revecom ...etc
- add customer to database
- send a conformation e-mail to customer
2. Customer able to upgrade or downgrade their account
- support multiple account / domain
- can charge customer for extra bandwidth, space...etc
3. Support reseller
- bill customer the package they resell
- including add-ons features resell
4. A page for customer to check their billing status
- bill customer automatically every billing period


thats the customer management / billing programme i suggested / looking for

Ok, I will make a list tomorrow ;-)

I just looked at billadmin. Too bad it's not a program for your own computer or server. I would be very interrested. Now I just ignore it :-(

DOMENICO WROTE:
> I don't understand more companies step
> into this sector and make Webhosting User
> Management software.
>
> Many, many people are looking for these kind
> of programmes but no software company seems
> to notice it or care about it :-(
>

KSSTUDIO WROTE:
> Suggested features:
> 1. A form for customer to sign up
> - customer choose between transfer domain
> or signup new
> - fill up information
> - after signup link customer to instabill,
> revecom ...etc
> - add customer to database
--------------- SNIP ------------------

I've seen a lot of enthusiasm for software like this in this and other threads. And I agree with the need and understand the enthusiasm. (Nice features list, by the way, KSStudio!)

But what I *don't* see around this joint is anyone saying they'll actually pony-up the dollars when and if someone comes-up with an objectively good product that finally fills the need.

It's a huge and costly undertaking to do it right -- the operative word, there, being "right." I've toyed with tackling it, myself. But I'm not a disciple of the open source movement. It's not that I don't believe in doing pro bono work for the good of the masses. Lord knows, in my 24 years in this business, I've given away plenty.

But, in the end, I gotta' eat. And there isn't a person reading these forums that doesn't have a reasonably healthy profit motive.

So where's the collective offer to pay a reasonable fee if someone finally up and does it -- and does it right?

The lack thereof might be why no one has really stepped forward with a high-quality, commercial-grade, fully documented and supported product that is very specific to web hosting companies and resellers (or even resellers of resellers): Because those who can probably keep noticing that everywhere you turn in these and other forums, everyone's looking for an app with high production values that is available under the GNU paradigm -- or worse.

At least that's my observation -- no slight intended to the good folks, generally, who lurk here.

In the past couple of months, I've been having to stop myself from just diving-in and finally doing it once and for all because I've feared that once I did no one would really be willing to pay what it's worth to use it; to accept its price as a normal and essential cost of doing business -- even if it meant that the cost of each account went up a buck or two a month.

Would hosting companies pay? Or would everyone just dismiss it because it wasn't a script on a freesite somewhere -- even if using it would make them so much more productive that even after paying their effective net profit increased, as I believe would be the case?

Just askin'

Gregg L. DesElms

Would hosting companies pay?

Yes, absolutely. I think the majority of hosting companies would pay if the price isn't patently ridiculous.

The problem with most ISP billing software that's out there right now (and there really is no shortage) is the price. Unless you're a huge ISP with many thousands of customers, you probably can't justify the $5,000 to $10,000 the decent packages demand.

Especially when you look around and see software focused at other business models for a fraction of the cost. For example, if I ran an alarm company, I could buy billing and customer management software (very very good software, in fact) for under $200. You look at Quickbooks and it's a great program with a very low price. Peachtree at around $300 is great.

And then we look at a billing software targetted to our business and it's priced in the thousands of dollars. It just doesn't work out.

I think most web hosts would pay for a really solid customer management software. One that does automated e-mail and credit card billing. One that allows storage of technical information, so that it can truly be used for total customer management (if you look around, the few low-cost packages out there are lacking in any customer management features and only do billing).

If you can create a software and price it in the $500 to $1000 range, then I think there would be a tremendous demand. The lower you can get your price, the more potential business you can get (at $500 to $1000 you'll get small hosting companies - but if you go $250 to $500 you'll also be able to pick up all the really small resellers, too). There is definitely money to be made here, it's just a matter of understanding what hosting companies need. This is a very low-margin business, let's not kid ourselves. When you start seeing hosting companies selling accounts at $4, $5, or $6 a month, how much can they really be making? Even the companies that start at $20 a month or so don't have nearly the margins of, say, a dial-up ISP.

Price it right and everybody wins. Price it too high and you're going to price yourself right out of the market.

Just my feeling, as someone who has been searching for suitable software for my own business for over a year, I've probably evaluated just about every software product out there targetted to this business, and I can tell you that none of them really do what we need at a price we can afford.

Good luck,

Jason

Excellent, thoughtful input, Jason. Thank you.

Hmmm...

Well, I understand what you're saying about the price of software. But one really can't compare the price of general-purpose, mass-marketed, non-vertical-market software products like QuickBooks or Peachtree with that of narrow-interest, vertical-market applications such as a Billing/Management system for web hosting companies would be. In part, it is the sheer volume of sales upon which the makers of those general-purpose products may count which allows them to pick a pricepoint that will appeal to the consumer.

And even among mass-produced, general-purpose software products, such as Peachtree or QuickBooks cannot even hope to compete with high-end accounting packages. For all its faults, the exponentially higher-priced Great Plains accounting software is a concomitantly exponentially better product than Peachtree or Quickbooks. And Great Plains is by no means a narrow-interest, vertical-market product. It truly is a "you get what you pay for" situation, in that case.

The minute one narrows one's market from potentially millions of copies to potentially only thousands or even hundreds or less, one has fewer sales over which to amortize the cost of development. We see that even with mass-market products like Great Plains. Just try contacting a VAR who has written a narrow-interest, vertical-market A/R module that sits atop the Great Plains G/L so that Great Plains accounting system power may become available to whatever kind of business the VAR wrote the app for. That VAR probably spent as much time writing his narrow-interest A/R module as Great Plains did writing their general-purpose version. Yet that VAR knows he'll only sell a few hundred copies (or less) of that A/R module versus Great Plains' thousands and thousands of copies of its A/R module. So his A/R module is necessarily going to have to cost a lot more than the general-purpose A/R module one can get from Great Plains.

That explains, at least in part, why any vertical-market application costs more. But, I grant you, that doesn't explain it all. There is, indeed, a not-insignificant amount of pure greed among the makers of much vertical market software, as you alluded to. The VARs know that the users can't get it from anywhere else, so it's true that they hike the price up a bit for that, too.

But I agree that the $5,000 to $10,000 price tags are unconscionable. Frankly, $1,995 doesn't feel that bad to me -- if the software is good enough.

But, it's true that if one really wants to snag this market, where margins are so thin just to compete, one needs to price it so a broad range of hosting companies can use it.

And part of what affects that might be the method of deployment of the product, i.e., web-based/online versus a Windows app that sits on your machine in your office but which performs online tasks.

The latter lends itself more to the "outright sale" deployment method, which is what your comments seem to suggest you envision.

But the former could lend itself to deployment methods that might allow a price point that is low enough to allow almost any hosting company to avail itself of the product. For example, an online web app wherein the hosting company or hosting reseller creates an account and then pays a tiny fee per every one of *his* accounts for each month of use might be a good method of delivery of the service.

Could, in your opinion, *that* be the right approach? Or do you believe the only best way to deploy a product like this would be as a custom Windows or UNIX app that resides locally on one's office computer?

Or, yet another model: An outright-sale product which is a web app intended to reside on the purchaser's own server. Would *that* be the best approach, do you think?

(Comments from anyone reading this are welcome, of course... please chime right in!)

It seems to me that the inherent problem with the outright sale method, across the board, would that one could never really price a truly good product at a point that would allow the smallest of the hosting companies to purchase. From among the price ranges you and I have tossed-around here, for all the reasons I've cited above, to outright purchase it would almost have to be priced at the high-end of the ranges you suggested, or even at the nearly $2,000 price point that I suggested.

Or more, frankly.

And I only base that on my own 24 years of experience. I've written (or overseen the writing of) what feels to me at this point in my life like six ga-billion custom applications on a variety of different platforms. And to do it *right* (and I really need to make sure anyone reading understands that that's the salient difference, here... that I'm talking about really high-end software that actually works, has tons of features, has good documentation, and is well-supported) costs a ton of money and the creator of the product has to get his money back from someplace! Plus, as anyone who's ever worked on a significant custom software project will tell you, it always takes longer and costs more than anyone envisioned before the project was begun (although, after doing it wrong for so many years, I've finally actually gotten to the point where I'm almost guessing it right these days... but I digress).

So it occurs to me that maybe one way to eliminate that inescapably high price point might be to make it an online service -- a served web app to which web hosting companies could subscribe; that could be highly-customized to accommodate varying server, customer, billing and merchant types within a range of common options that will be limited enough that it could still be reasonably supported by a small but astute staff of techical folks; and that would be incrementally billed in an ongoing way so that the cost of entry for the hosting company would be low enough to fit into its world of extremely low margins, while also allowing the creator of the product to recoup and then profit from his investment via the ongoing subscriber revenue stream.

Would that fly, do you think?

And, if so, at what cost? What, in *that* paradigm, would people pay?

Or am I looking at this all wrong?

And what features, precisely, does everyone need? You said you've researched it for some time now and have evaluated just about every product out there. I believe you. So what was wrong with them? What was missing? Or, if it claimed to have something you wanted but which you still didn't like, then in what way(s) did those products deliver the subject capability wrongly or ineffectively?

Were I to tackle this (and my emotions are so mixed at this moment about it that I can't honestly say that I want to... yet there's something here that tells me if I did, and did it right, I'd really be contributing something of value to the marketplace), what features, precisely, would this product need to exhibit?

And deployed how, in a perfect world?

And priced how, given its method of deployment?


Gregg L. DesElms

Hello,

Since English is not my native language I am not able to give such high fligh answers as above so I will make this short and simple ;-)

It's like jason says, for every market/business there is software in the range from free to big budget.

Now I want some software with very few and in my opinion simple to program features and i have to pay big bucks for it because it's targeted only at high profile hosting companies.

What do we need really?

People choose their package (admin defineable), sign up and their info goes straight into a database.
An email is sent to the admin and to the user.
We review it (option if this goes automaticly or manually) and send the first bill (by mail or some people want CC billing. I don't want that).
The program knows when the customers have to pay again and send the bill by email and a mail to the admin that they must pay again so he can keep an eye on that.
There must be also the abbility to list all the customers and other (search) functions that are common with every database. Offcourse every generated html and sent email file has to be user defineable. Things like currency hast to be variable too and don't forget the taxes...

This is all!!! I don't want a high-end accounting program because I have my own high-end accountant.
I want to pay for this but not 10000 dollar!
If I could program it myself I would but I can't so why isn't anybody programming this kind of software?
I know there is a market for it so why doesn't anyone come up with something like this...

Sorry for my terrible Engligh but it's really late here and I'm very tired and English just isn't my native language wich is terrible because I could come up with more clever lines than I did now.

Domenico

Don't worry Domenico...

...you done good -- in any language. [grin]


I'm actually beginning to allow myself to think about doing this -- maybe. I feel those creative juices starting to flow.

Anyone else have comments/suggestions/guidance?



Gregg DesElms

Originally posted by DesElms
But one really can't compare the price of general-purpose, mass-marketed, non-vertical-market software products like QuickBooks or Peachtree with that of narrow-interest, vertical-market applications such as a Billing/Management system for web hosting companies would be.

Oh, I agree completely. The problem is that even though you really can't compare the two, to the average small business owner who knows little about software development and distribution (and trust me, most hosting company owners couldn't program their way out of a cardboard box, myself included), those comparisons are going to get made anyway. What you have to do is really make it clear (through your marketing and the program's capabilities) just why the extra expense is worth it.


And part of what affects that might be the method of deployment of the product, i.e., web-based/online versus a Windows app that sits on your machine in your office but which performs online tasks.

The latter lends itself more to the "outright sale" deployment method, which is what your comments seem to suggest you envision.

Outright sale is always the preferred method of buying software (IMHO). I never much bought into the whole ASP model as it relates to actual software purchases. I also think that the moment you begin to think about offering something of this nature in an ASP service model, you're opening up a major can of worms. More on that later.


For example, an online web app wherein the hosting company or hosting reseller creates an account and then pays a tiny fee per every one of *his* accounts for each month of use might be a good method of delivery of the service.

I would highly recommend against this approach, for several reasons. One reason is that by doing this you will instantaniously alienate a very large portion of your potential customer base. Many hosting companies, my own included, would never, ever, even consider putting confidential customer data on someone else's equipment and network.

But it's not only the loss of potential customers that I think you should stay away from this model. There is a large amount to consider with this model. Yes, you have to make a working software. But in addition to that, you need to set up servers and a network, make sure those servers and network are running to 5 nines (99.999% uptime), make sure both the servers and network are secure (and not just toss a firewall up and say "good enough" - when you're dealing with a potential for millions of credit card numbers to be sitting on your network, security is probably going to be your largest single investment, probably even more costly than developing the software in the first place).

You'll have to have service level agreements in place with all of your customers, and also security guarantees. You'll need an absolutely huge insurance policy to protect you (when, not if, your network gets hacked and millions of credit cards get stolen, imagine how many lawsuits you'll have on your hands).

No - the ASP model for billing is not a good one. There are other companies doing it (BillMax and BillAdmin are two), but I would consider it extremely risky and I doubt either of those two have *really* considered the consequences. Even if you write into your agreements that your customer hosting companies won't hold you responsible if you're hacked (which you can probably do but doesn't reflect favorably when those hosting companies review the contract), no contract will prevent you from being sued, it just prevents you from losing the suit. But even if you with the lawsuits it'll cost you a fortune in attorneys fees.


Or, yet another model: An outright-sale product which is a web app intended to reside on the purchaser's own server. Would *that* be the best approach, do you think?

This is probably the best solution. The problem with software that is designed to sit on one computer and run is that it's far less useful as a total customer management solution. If you design a software that's designed to sit on one (or more) servers (and what I'd suggest is really 2 pieces of software - the database back end that contains all the actual information and that can sit on one server behind a massively restrictive firewall, and then a second software that sits on a web server that's not as restricted that will then go ahead and interface with that restricted server for the data - much safer against hacking that way, though you'll still have to figure out good ways to make it really secure.

Erm... where was I? Oh, yeah - if you have software that will sit on a server, then it's a lot more useful for total customer management. It wouldn't *just* be a billing software, it'd be a customer tracking and technical tracking software too, which is a lot more useful.

It seems to me that the inherent problem with the outright sale method, across the board, would that one could never really price a truly good product at a point that would allow the smallest of the hosting companies to purchase.

This is where you need to start getting really creative. You might not be able to make as much off the actual software sales, but there are other ways to make money on this. Create a plug-in module that acts as a tech support ticketing system that integrates with your customer management program, and sell that for extra fees. You could create create two versions - one using a low-end database and then another version using something like SQL database, then you can market at two different price points (where the larger companies would buy the higher-end database version).

You could offer installation of the program for an extra fee. And offer training (both on-site and over the phone) at extra fees. Offer an annual support contract (at a more reasonable price than most support contracts, though). You could set it up that with a support contract people get free upgrades for the length of the support contract. If they don't have a support contract, then they'd have to pay for upgrades - that way you either make money on the support or you make money on the upgrades, either way.

Offer low-interest financing (with expiring license keys until the program is paid for 100%). That way even companies that can't afford to plop down $1000 or $2000 all at once can still use your solution. Don't make the financing contingent on a lot of red tape and hoops to jump through - the expiring license key protects your interest, so make it as easy as possible for someone to buy from you. And you make a little extra on the interest payments.

There's tons of extra "value-add" services you could offer to make extra money. It's true that not every customer will buy the extra stuff, but some will.

I guess my point is that if you wander around this forum long enough, you're going to see this same topic over and over and over again - every couple months someone pops up looking for a customer management and billing program. And there just aren't a lot out there priced at a price that is affordable for the small web host. There is a real need here, and eventually someone will fill that niche and be very successful at it.

I'm not trying to talk you specifically into doing this - I'm just offering my own feedback. Any programmer who wants to jump at this project is free to use my comments and suggestions.

I'm going to continue this message in another post, because VB is telling me I've exceeded the maximum message size. So follow me to my next post :D

And what features, precisely, does everyone need? You said you've researched it for some time now and have evaluated just about every product out there. I believe you. So what was wrong with them? What was missing?


Well, this is a *really* tough question. Not because I'd have trouble coming up with problems, but because I wouldn't have time to list them all! So I'll just list a few of what I see as the biggest problems I've encountered:

One of the most common problems I have found, to be quite honest, is actually a problem of there actually being too many features (I call this phenomenon "Feature Bloat"). Feature Bloat occurs when a software developer decides he (or she) wants his program to be all things to all people, and it comes out being too much for most people.

A great example of this is Optigold (www.optigold.com). A wonderful program being used by thousands of ISPs, I admit. However, when I downloaded the demo and tried to use it, I spent over 12 hours just configuring the thing. In the end I just said "to hell with it" and uninstalled the program. There was just too much - it was overwhelming. 90% of the features that were in there I simply didn't need. And I know I'm not alone in that opinion - I subscribe the Optigold support mailing list, and I see dozens of inquiries a day with people saying "I know it can do this, but for the life of me I can't figure out how." - and that's because the program suffers from feature bloat.

That's not to say you shouldn't strive to be all things to all people, but there are better ways to go about it. I personally like the programs that are written with modules - if you don't need the feature, you don't install the module. It'd take some thinking to figure out what should be part of the base installation and what should be add-on modules, but trust me your customers will thank you for it later when they're trying to use the thing.

The other big problem I run into time and time again is the user interface. I won't pick on Optigold again (Optigold's interface is neither great nor horrible - it's pretty much average), this time I'll pick on ISP Easy (www.buddysystems.com). This user interface tries to cram every single piece of information that can possibly go into the program all on one single screen. They even advertise that as a good feature of the program. I disagree. I think that it makes the layout messy and non-intuitive, it makes it difficult to find information at a glance, and you lose efficiency by having to search for things.

On a lot of these programs they really lack decent documentation. This time I will praise Optigold - their documentation is incredible. Not only do they have extensive online documentation, but they also provide a printed manual with every sale. Fantastic. On the other hand, you have a program like Freeside (www.sisd.com/freeside/) that has no documentation whatsoever other than information on how to install the thing.

Another common problem I've found is the lack of real-time credit card processing. They'll pick one or two programs (that you have to purchase extra) which they "fully support" where if you use those programs you can process the credit cards real-time and the software will interface with them directly. And then they set up a "batch file" feature for another dozen or so processing systems (like AuthorizeNet, which is what we use), so that what you have to do is generate a batch file, export it from the system, upload it to AuthorizeNet (or another processor), let the processor do it's thing, and then enter back into the billing software what went through and what failed. That's little better than processing by hand. An example of this deficiency is ISP Billing (www.isp-billing.com), an otherwise very good software that we rejected because of this credit card issue.

And then there are the ones that just don't support credit card processing at all (I won't list them - they are too numerous). And there are some that only do credit card processing - no invoicing at all. And ones that'll invoice via snail-mail but not e-mail, or vice versa. And so on.

Well, I could go on and on with problems with various systems I've looked at, but it'd take hours. Hopefully this gives you a little bit of a sense as to what, in my opinion (and believe me, this is just my opinion - I have no doubt that I'll have left some people on these boards shaking their heads wondering what's wrong with me that I see these things as problems), but in my opinion these are the biggest problems I've seen.

If I can help to clarify anything I've said here, or provide additional feedback, I'm happy to do so. As I said, I've spent literally hundreds of hours in the last year looking at billing software (in fact I'm downloading one right now that I just discovered (www.cyberacs.com) - I'll let you know how it goes), and thus far although I've found some decent solutions, I have yet to find a solution that didn't have a serious problem and/or was priced out of our price range (which, contrary to what I implied in my posts here, is actually a lot more than what I'm encouraging you to charge - I'm thinking of what we would have been able to afford 3 years ago when we started this business, which is when we should have implemented a total customer management solution instead of now 3 years later. Web hosting companies should be buying their customer management software within their first 3 to 6 months of business, so you need to target your pricing to fit startup budgets. Companies that don't put a good customer management solution in place early on will regret it a tremendous amount later - I know I do.)

Anyway, now that I've written this novel, I hope I've given you some good things to think about.

Thanks,

Jason

Wow... Jason... thank you.

I'm digesting it all now.

Very insightful. And helpful.

So, if your opinion is to be considered "typical" (and I have a suspicion it's closer to being typical than not), then let's see how this looks as a feature/requirement list so far -- in part just so I can get my mind wrapped around it, and also so that others can also and then maybe add to it.

In no particular order, and with me fiddling with the ideas and adding a little here and there as I write:

1. It needs to be an app that one can purchase outright and will run on one's own server instead of as a centralized web app served by an ASP.

2. It needs to be modular so the user won't suffer from feature overload.

3. If it's not modularized, then it needs to have its many features and capabilities presented and organized in such a way that it's fairly obvious how to set everything up; or maybe turn on or off whatever's not needed. And its user interface, generally, needs to be fairly intuitive that it's obvious in an instant how to get around to its various parts quickly.

4. It needs to be well-documented -- presumably by means of both a well-written "getting started" documentary feature, as well as a reference document. And same should be both printed and available within the program by clicking on "help" buttons or something like that. And the printed version could also be available as one or more PDF files.

5. It needs to be able to interface tightly with just about any credit card processor out there -- and in real-time, not batched. And CC processing results would post right to the customer database, right into each customer's account, as appropriate. And said CC processing postings (fund reservation acknowledgements) would then be shown as receivables from the CC company with a means of later showing, easily, the actual receipt of the money once it hits the hosting company's bank account (settlement acknowledgements/verifications).

6. It needs to have a way of doing everything in item 5 backwards when a refund needs to be issued. Or perhaps only partially when a partial or adjusted refund needs to be issued.

7. The problem of the cost and lostics of security you described in your discussion of why the ASP model is not good would still exist if the hosting company ran the software on its own server. And if the market is as you describe, the hosting company would be in an even worse position to erect a security infrastructure that would offer any hope of true security. So perhaps the product itself should have a tremendous amount of inherent security built-in -- way beyond just password protection. In addition, possibly breaking the application into two parts -- a secure database part that runs behind a firewall (or at least on an SSL server), and a less-secure "font end" on a web server.

8. It would need to have either a modular add-on or an integrated trouble-ticketing and support tracking system -- presumable one wherein either the hosting company or the customer could open a ticket on a web page and then either party could see the status at any time... password-protected, of course. I would add that it should also include the ability to make any support performed either billable or not billable, depending on how things are set up.

9. You mentioned the words "customer tracking," which, if you think about it, is the whole point. So I'm having trouble seeing that as a separate item. But if I may launch off what that suggests, an integrated contact management system, generally, might be interesting -- for prospects, with a simple way of converting them, in more or less a single click, over to 'customer' status.

10. It would have as separately billable items or combinations of items such things as: Installation, training, tutorials, ongoing support, patches and upgrades.

11. If it's not modular, then as a means of giving extremely small hosting companies or resellers an inexpensive point of entry into a software system that may cost many hundreds of dollars (or more), use expiring license keys that allow the hosting company to acquire the software with a low initial payment and then additional payments over time to obtain additional license keys just before the old license key's expiration; with either low-cost or no-cost interest; and not a lot of hoopla and red tape to get signed-up, make the initial payment, acquire the software, and get started.

12. It would need to allow for all manner of easy communication with the customers -- all at once, or in groups, or individually -- withe click (or two or three) of a button (or two or three). This would include e-mail as well has printed letters on paper and sent via the Postal Service.

13. It would need to produce invoices of varying types (manual, automatic/recurring, for overages or additional services or support, etc), that could be sent both via e-mail and/or printed-out on paper and sent via the postal service. And the e-mailed invoices could contain a password protected link that would allow recipients to authorize payment (for those who don't pre-authorize payment automatically at invoice time). Or, pre-authorization can be split so that basic monthly fees can be pre-authorized but extras require authorization; or vice versa; or neither -- at the customer's option.

14. And the marketing plan should hit hard on the value of implementing a management system at the beginning, not after one has been in business for a couple or three (or more) years.

15. And there's Domenco's suggestion for the ability to highly customize, generally.

16. Domenico's and KSStudio's requirement for high-definable "Welcome" e-mails after signup for resellers.

17. Domenico's requirement for a full-range of (presumably customizable) reports as would be found in any typical database application of this sort.

18. KSStudio's need for domain handling (transfer or registration) as part of signup.

19. KSStudio's existing customer automated upgrading/downgrading with concomitant billing and customer record adjustments.

20. What else?????? (Anyone want to add anything?) (Please, folks.... contribute!)



Okay.... I think I got it so far.

I do have one comment or rebuttal or food-for-though or whatever you want to call it: You wrote that, under the ASP model, no one would want to put their confidential customer information onto someone else's server. But isn't that already what everyone is doing when they use credit card processing companies -- be they full merchant accounts or 3rd party accounts? And doesn't every small virtual hosting company do essentially that whenever it purchases a reseller account from a server owner who co-locates at places like Alabanza, Communitech, or VDI?

If so, then, philosophically, why would they balk at doing essentially the same at an ASP that is helping them run their little hosting company better and faster and cheaper than ever before -- especially if that ASP really *did* take reasonable steps to ensure security?

Just askin' [grin]


Now, we haven't spent much time on the practical aspects of the customer interface and the transactional integration into whatever hosting management systems might be in place at various hosting or hosting-reselling companies.

For example, for an Alabanza server owner, customer signup, credit card processing, etc. is already part of the package. Many of the customer management tasks are already included in the Alabanza software when you're a server owner.

It is only *their* virtual reseller clients who are jammed-up with no billing/managment system.

So how far should the management system go? Should there be a separate version (or features to be turned on or off) for server owners versus their reseller hosting clients?

And how to accomplish integration with so many different existing management or control panel systems? Alabanza is just one, as you know. And more and more are showing-up all the time.

Or should *this* package become the sign-up system, usurping/replacing any existing systems and then the hosting company just signs-up manually? If so, doesn't that kill hosting company's ability to advertise "instant signups" or "automatic account activation within minutes" or whatever their salient marketing claim?

How to accommodate such diversity without having to get down into the bowels of so many different and ever-changing existing systems? How to make existing systems notify the billing system of certain transactions -- and/or vice versa?

Or does that hurdle, alone, make it untenable in the end? Does that hurdle, alone, make it so this product can't really be so standalone as everyone has been thiking and, instead, this system needs to be nothing more than part of a complete hosting management system, like what Alabanza offers, but with more features and a completely management system for resellers? If so, then it suddenly competes with Alabanza, Communitech, VDI and others, does it not?

Thoughts?

My brain is spinning. Enough for one post.

Others.... please chime-in!


Gregg L. DesElms

Though i'm not certain of the costs involved, they offer some serious eBusiness software.

http://www.siebel.com

Originally posted by DesElms
Wow... Jason... thank you.

You're very welcome. And here's more coming at you now :D

I'm going to snip a lot here, because much of this doesn't need responding to... so here goes.


1. It needs to be an app that one can purchase outright and will run on one's own server instead of as a centralized web app served by an ASP.

Well, I didn't say it needs to be *just* that. A company like BillMax, for example, does both. No reason you couldn't as well. It also doesn't (necessarily) need to be entirely web-based, either. Although a lot of them out there are, there are a lot of client/server apps (Optigold being one of them) that are also very effective. Just something to think about.

3. If it's not modularized, then it needs to have its many features and capabilities presented and organized in such a way that it's fairly obvious how to set everything up; or maybe turn on or off whatever's not needed. And its user interface, generally, needs to be fairly intuitive that it's obvious in an instant how to get around to its various parts quickly.

As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, this afternoon I downloaded a new billing software (www.cyberacs.com) that I hadn't tried before. I'll tell you a little bit about what I liked (a lot) about that software here - it was the user interface. You should download it and take a look. The user interface they had was very very well organized, very intuitive, and relatively crisp and clean. I liked it. A lot. I also liked how they had two sections - one for dial-up accounts and one for commercial accounts. That way you don't have to try to squeeze multiple types of accounts into one generic "all-purpose" type of information form. Very classy. That being said, I'll tell you why I decided this software was not for us a little farther on in this e-mail :).


5. It needs to be able to interface tightly with just about any credit card processor out there -- and in real-time, not batched. And CC processing results would post right to the customer database, right into each customer's account, as appropriate.

I consider this to be probably the single most important item. I have seen many, many billing products (as I noted before, ISP-Billing, and also as I discovered this afternoon CyberACS are two of them) that simply do not implement the credit card processing well.

Since CyberACS is fresh in my mind, let me tell you how their credit card processing worked. You had to load up the software and click a button to generate a batch file. At the time you generate the batch file, CyberACS would actually set all of those customers to having paid - even though you hadn't actually processed those credit cards, as soon as the batch file was generated CyberACS set everything to paid.

You then had to take the batch file, upload it to your processor, and wait for the processor to do it's thing. Once it's done it's thing, presumably the processor spits out a report of what went through and what didn't. Now, here's the kicker - anything that didn't go through (declined, expired, whatever), you actually have to go back into CyberACS and manually enter each and every account and re-set those invoices to be due again. It didn't even have a feature to import the results, you have to do that by hand.

In my opinion, the reason a company implements a billing system such as this is to automate a significant portion of their back-office systems. The batch file method of credit card processing is anything but automated. You really have to make an effort to make these credit card processing work automatically.



7. The problem of the cost and lostics of security you described in your discussion of why the ASP model is not good would still exist if the hosting company ran the software on its own server.

True. My point wasn't that you couldn't provide just as good (if not better) security than the hosting company itself. Rather, my point was, is the hosting company really willing to take that chance. If the hosting company sets everything up and gets hacked, then they are the only ones to blame and there's no finger pointing involved. If they outsource and it gets hacked, then there's blame going around left and right - and believe me, there's nothing a customer hates to hear more than "it's not our fault, we outsource that part of our business". A hosting company server getting hacked is a major customer relations problem. A hosting company who is outsourcing their billing and their outsourced provider gets hacked, that's a customer relations disaster. Finger pointing only ever has bad outcomes, never good.


8. It would need to have either a modular add-on or an integrated trouble-ticketing and support tracking system

Doesn't have to - I had indicated that as a potential additional revenue stream for you, but it's not an absolutely necessary part of the program. It's not uncommon to see billing software that includes that, but it's not uncommon to see billing software that doesn't.

My feeling is that when you have a trouble ticket system, that's got to go out on a web site that's a lot less secure than the server where you want your billing. So using a billing software for your trouble ticket system makes securing the billing portion that much more improbable. I, personally, wouldn't use that feature even if it were available (we already have a trouble ticket system we're happy with and prefer not to mix the two), but a lot of companies would use it. So it's up to you whether you want to include it, but don't include it based on my feedback alone - I was just using it as an example of what you could do.


13. It would need to produce invoices of varying types (manual, automatic/recurring, for overages or additional services or support, etc), that could be sent both via e-mail and/or printed-out on paper and sent via the postal service.

This should be very automated. I would prefer not to have to walk over to the billing computer and click "Invoice Now" every time invoices should go out, I'd much rather the system just do it (but of course if that's not possible, then make it as painless as possible even if I do have to hit an "Invoice Now" button). The system should also be able to send past due notices and track when someone is due to be suspended for non-payment.

.....
Darn - ran into the 10,000 character limit again! ATTN ADMIN: Can we get that increased to 15,000 characters?

Anyway - this post continued on the next post :)

16. Domenico's and KSStudio's requirement for high-definable "Welcome" e-mails after signup for resellers.


Excellent idea, except not just for resellers - all e-mail templates (from invoices, past due notices, welcome e-mails, statements, etc.) should be very customizable.

Also while on the topic of resellers - a great feature that most billing programs lack is a "child account" feature - the ability to actually create a separate account that is applied to a parent account's bill. This is important for reseller tracking, because the reseller would be billed for every account they have but we would need to be able to track technical information (usernames, domains, passwords, IP addresses, plan types, add-ons per domain, etc.) on a per-domain basis, but the resellers absolutely demand getting all accounts on just one bill each month.


I do have one comment or rebuttal or food-for-though or whatever you want to call it: You wrote that, under the ASP model, no one would want to put their confidential customer information onto someone else's server. But isn't that already what everyone is doing when they use credit card processing companies -- be they full merchant accounts or 3rd party accounts?

Point taken.


And doesn't every small virtual hosting company do essentially that whenever it purchases a reseller account from a server owner who co-locates at places like Alabanza, Communitech, or VDI?

Yes, someone that rents servers and actually uses all the mumbo-jumbo control systems absolutely does that. A company like mine, though, that colos our own boxes doesn't give any information to our upstream providers (they know the IP addresses and the domain name that goes with them - that's it). We'd never hand over any customer information to our upstream. I can see why some small hosts and resellers would have to do that, but a lot of hosts don't, either.

If so, then, philosophically, why would they balk at doing essentially the same at an ASP that is helping them run their little hosting company better and faster and cheaper than ever before -- especially if that ASP really *did* take reasonable steps to ensure security?

The type of company that uses Alabanza or VDI and also uses their customer management utilities wouldn't balk at using your outsourced solution anymore than they balk at using BillAdmin. But a larger hosting company that doesn't depend or use those types of services would not be nearly so comfortable outsourcing something like that. I won't even rent a dedicated server for loss of control it causes, so why think that I'd outsource our billing software? That's not to say I couldn't be convinced, but it'd be a *very* hard sell.

For example, for an Alabanza server owner, customer signup, credit card processing, etc. is already part of the package. Many of the customer management tasks are already included in the Alabanza software when you're a server owner.

True. Same thing (essentially) with VDI clients. But do you know how many Alabanza and VDI clients that I have heard over the last few years say to me (or on these forums publicly) "If I weren't so dependant on Alabanza's systems I'd leave and go elsewhere."? In fact, that's the entire reason Alabanza created these systems was for the whole purpose of customer retention.

You could market your service as an alternative. I think a lot of companies would leap at it. It doesn't matter what NOC they use, they can always use your services. Gives them a lot more flexibility.

I know one hosting company on these boards (that will remain nameless, since I can't remember who they are right now) who posted a few months ago saying they were using 3 separate billing systems - 3! Not because they wanted to, but simply because they were stuck between two different NOCs and couldn't get everything straightened out. Now, they're probably down to just one by now, since this was months ago, but that's the type of story I hear fairly often.

There's always opportunity.


So how far should the management system go? Should there be a separate version (or features to be turned on or off) for server owners versus their reseller hosting clients?

Well, I don't know. I don't know that, as a host, I would want to give any of my resellers access into my billing system at all. On the other hand, it would be handy to have a way to have resellers add accounts/features automatically. But I wouldn't want resellers to be able to use my billing system to bill their own clients - let them get their own customer management system.

Maybe the solution to this one is to offer a program whereby a hosting company that already uses your services can offer (as part of their "reseller welcome kit" or whatever they might have) a discount program for their resellers to buy your software (or ASP service) directly but with a refund because they are a customer of a customer. We're setting up something like this with a vendor of another software we think our resellers might like, and I think that it's a good way to market it for you if you don't mind giving discounts.

And how to accomplish integration with so many different existing management or control panel systems? Alabanza is just one, as you know. And more and more are showing-up all the time.

I'm not so sure you need to integrate with existing management systems. I could be wrong here (I've never used Alabanza or VDI or any of the others, so this is probably not an area where I'm truly qualified to speak of), but my personal feeling is that a customer management system should actually not have too many direct controls into a server. I know that some, like Optigold, have the ability to set up accounts automatically. That's an ok feature, sure, but it's extraneous. Not really truly necessary.

I just don't think integrating with other management programs is necessary (or even really that good an idea). I could definitely be wrong in this, though - I think I'd seek out the opinion of people who actually use those systems rather than taking my word for it. But that's my opinion anyway.

Or should *this* package become the sign-up system, usurping/replacing any existing systems and then the hosting company just signs-up manually? If so, doesn't that kill hosting company's ability to advertise "instant signups" or "automatic account activation within minutes" or whatever their salient marketing claim?

Not necessarily. I'm sure there's some way to custom-program some type of formmail script that'll write the data to both your system and the setup system at the same time. You create an API with the necessary plugs (or whatever you'd call it) that the hosting company can then use to write that script. Leave that specific portion of the integration up to the hosting company (or offer to program it for them for an extra fee).

Even a program like Optigold that includes the setup feature you have to actually write the specific setup script from scratch to work with your specific server setup. So it doesn't seem unusual to leave a few integration portions up to the hosting company to complete. Your software works stand-alone by itself just fine, but give the ability to integrate with something else if the hosting company wants to put in the time and money to do it.

Again, just my thoughts and observations.

Your turn :D

Jason

Jason (and whomever else is following this thread):

You wrote: "Your turn."

I didn't want you to think I've given-up on this thread or that I didn't appreciate the really thorough response you posted. I printed-out every word of it and it's in a file folder entitled "Study this and Learn."

I haven't replied yet because right after my last post I got an emergency project that sucked the fun right out of my life -- not to mention the time.

I'm finishing it up now. Sorry.

I'll get back to 'ya!

And, again, thanks for your thoughtfulness. I want to continue... but later. I'll be back.

Gregg

Originally posted by Paul_Szymanski
Michael,

Do you have the newer version of Quickbooks ... 2001. I am thinking about upgrading and was wondering if you thought it was worth it. I would love to see an example of an email invoice if you could throw one my way.

Paul,

I use QB 2001 and do like the email invoicing. It saves a lot of faxing time. I do wish they had it for sending statements too.

I'd be glad to send you a sample email invoice. I'm new to this forum and not sure where i would email it to. So just let me know and I can do it.

Have you considered just making a template for Quickbooks users that want to start a webhost and selling that at $50.00 a pop?

I've done a search on Quickbooks Templates and there are only about a dozen, and none of them are appropriate (Forestry??).

As popular an application it is I would think that someone would be selling all sorts of templates.

Is there not a CPA out there involved in the hosting business?

This thread has been incredibly helpful in my search to find decent account management software.

I realize that we are talking mostly about account management software, but what about billing and user management software (more like CBMS)? What are some decent, inexpensive (preferrably free for up to x customers) billing and account management software packages on the market?

http://www.dreamcost.com
http://www.modernbill.com

both seem to be shaping up quite well. (and affordable)

Greg Moore

May I add that it would be nice also to have the client's username and password besides what ksstudio already mentioned incoporated into the software/program.


Originally posted by ksstudio
Suggested features:
1. A form for customer to sign up
- customer choose between transfer domain or signup new
- fill up information
- after signup link customer to instabill, revecom ...etc
- add customer to database
- send a conformation e-mail to customer
2. Customer able to upgrade or downgrade their account
- support multiple account / domain
- can charge customer for extra bandwidth, space...etc
3. Support reseller
- bill customer the package they resell
- including add-ons features resell
4. A page for customer to check their billing status
- bill customer automatically every billing period


If anyone could write one(software/program) such as the above, it would definitely be very saleable to resellers and hosts alike. Presently, as a reseller, I have to ask them to fill in a Form where they enter their Domain Name, Email address, Username, Password and after submitting the Form, send them to my cc processing company to make payment. All this is done via a redirect page and to the cc company using the Form features which list what package/plan they intend to sign up.

After receiving all the details from my cc company and the client's details I have to create manually an account for that particular client on the server and send all details/info pertaining to their account.

As you can see it takes a lot of work and very cumbersome, with such a software to automate the process would really make make a lot of difference in keep records of clients.