I've noticed alot of people requesting logos here lately. I was thinking about some things when i was driving around town today and I had a few thoughts. Those of you who are old enough to drive, take a drive around town and look at all the company signs and logos. What do the logo's look like? They are all simple designs. I just wanted to say to all the designers out there and to all the people who want logo's made : "Simplicity is the key to success". Be creative though. A simple , yet unique and creative logo is something that will not only be easy to incorporate into the web, print, and broadcast mediums but also will be something that will stick with people who have seen it. Anyways, just my .02 . Post your comments on the subject of logos.

All the comments you have made recently about peoples logos...I doubt you just realised all this today...more like you are trying to make some point...SO JUST GO AHEAD AND MAKE IT.

Simon

I agree. Though the reason most people around here haven't been designing logos like that, is because they are mainly designing it for online use. So not only are they attempting to design a logo, they are trying to have it serve as a header too.

Many (but not all) of the logos being displayed on WHT, might work well for a website, but not on print, signs, etc...

Simon, what synthetic is saying is what i am saying. Most of the logos i see here, bout 60%, are strictly made for online use and arnt thinking forward about the possibility of other mediums.

Originally posted by SimonMc
All the comments you have made recently about peoples logos...I doubt you just realised all this today...more like you are trying to make some point...SO JUST GO AHEAD AND MAKE IT.

Simon
Do you have the ability to make logo's ? Or do you just use the logo templates? Quite controversial simon.

Originally posted by eepgfx

Do you have the ability to make logo's ? Or do you just use the logo templates? Quite controversial simon.

ROFL

lol

Originally posted by eepgfx

Do you have the ability to make logo's ? Or do you just use the logo templates? Quite controversial simon.

Oh by gum YES.

Just take a look at the portfolio....more will be added to it later. As you can see...not all the logos are made with templates. Some are completely 100% original.

PORTFOLIO (http://logo.hostmob.com/example.htm)

Customers are starting to realise that for $20 you can get a really great logo for your business. Oh...I know you real designers hate it. But you know what...if you charged a reasonable amount of money for your work...you too could make a living from it.

Some of the testimonials I have received from happy customers over the last few weeks are testamony to the fact the The Logo Company provides a service where there is a gap in the market. We do not pretend to be the greatest designers in the world...we just provide great business logos..for web or print...for a great price. In a really fast time. Customers Love it...and no matter what you say...you can't argue with the customer.

Simon

okady dokady

Reasonable ammount of money? I don't recall of any Fortune500 company paying $20 to have their logo designed.

I'm not trying to bash your work (not even saying that your work isn't good.) But there is a reason why companies charge more than $20 for logo design services, the result of their production is creative, original, and distinct. Of course, cost is not always associated with quality, but charging more than $20 IS very so reasonable.

And I'm glad that your company has been a success, and I'm sure that your customers are satisfied with what you provide them.

IMO the standard rate Fortune500 companies pay for a logo is anywhere from 40-60k ($40,000-$60,000)

That's probably true. And when logos are designed for such large corporate enterprises, I'm sure the whole process is alot more complex. Market research is conducted, every detail and aspect is thoroughly researched, public surveys, etc.

Your correct. The process is intense.

Ah..you see...you are all starting to realise that the market I work in is not the same as the market you work in. Or shouldn't be anyway.

Somebody mentioned that they were not sure whether my customers were happy or not.

If you like I can give you some testimonials that I have received from very happy customers over the last couple of weeks. It is no skin off my nose to do that.

I also promised earlier that I would be uploading another page to my portfolio. Well...the proof of the pudding is in the eating as far as I am concerned. So I have done what I promised to do. You can see the additions HERE! (http://logo.hostmob.com/example3.htm)

Now....being a businessman...I always back up what I say with proof. I find the customer appreciates COLD HARD FACTS over what somebody thinks or feels. Saying that...I think you will agree that there is not one logo in my portfolio that is not worth at least $20. Some of them I think you will also agree are worth far more. That is the beauty of design....that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have a real good knack of giving the customer what they want.

I do not pretend that 100% of my customers are completely satisfied. I have even had to refund one customer. Not because I gave him a bad logo...but because what he wanted was not in line with my business model. Having said that, the vast majority of my customer write me a testimonial...without me actually asking for it. That says more about my logo designs than I could ever say.

Going back to the original point about forethought of design....well..every logo supplied by The Logo Company comes in multiple file formats...including High Resolution TIF (300dpi) for off-line printing. That is at no extra cost.

Simon

I don't think talking about what a Fortune 500 company would pay for a logo has any relevance to this conversation. They are on a totally different level of development. The design process is multi-staged, the approval process is far more complex, the various designs are evaluated through focus groups, and on and on. What we are generally talking about here are logos for small businesses with online presence. Not enterprise level companies.

Unfortunately, the Internet seems to generate an entirely different mentality about doing business. So many things on the net seem to drop to ridiculously low prices...to the point where the service offered is hard to take seriously.

In the real business world at ground level, these bargain basement prices would be laughed out the door. Nobody would take them seriously. A company logo for $20? That's absurd. Most business owners understand that there is a cost to doing business, and they expect to pay a reasonable price for it. Thankfully, offline businesses have a more realistic idea of what reasonable means. There is also the question of perceived value. If you offer a logo design for $200 vs one for $20, which one do you think the average business owner will take seriously?

I certainly do not claim to be the best designer in the world. And my prices reflect my level of abilities. The majority of my design jobs come from offline customers. Mostly from referals. My clients will pay around $850.00 for an entry-level complete site design. Logo design? About $200. If I ever dared to offer a logo design for $20, I doubt I would even get the job.

But the Internet breeds an entirely different price point. Why? Because on the net, anyone can hang a shingle and call themselves designers, business people, web developers, web hosts, whatever. A $15 domain and $10/month for hosting, and a credit card in your pocket, congratulations, your doors are open for business.

I'm not saying that all companies offering $20 logos are just producing garbage designs. Many of them produce many nice looking designs. But on the other hand, exactly how much time/effort can you justify investing into a single design for a measly 20 bucks? I guess they cater to a specific market that is happy with services rendered considering the cheap price.

I guess in the long run the key is to avoid getting caught up in trying to compete with $20 logo designers. I admit, I get sucked into it every so often. But then thankfully I give my head a shake and snap out of it. I remind myself of what my time is actually worth charging for...

Just my 2 cents.

Vito

Well put Vito.

Let me ask you a hyperthetical question. If I could make 200k per year designing $20 logos...would that be worth thinking about..and be worth your time. I am not saying that is even possible...but it it not impossible. The way my business is growing..week on week 200K does not seem that absurd. You were right about price and quality not being aligned. I have seen some logos designed by so-called designers that are not as good as some of my $20 logos. I have also seen some far better...but 2 or 3 times better...NEVER.

Things can get pretty competetive in the real world too. Look at KMART...pile them high...sell them cheap!!! Great for the consumer. At the end of the day the CUSTOMER and the CUSTOMER only will decide if my business is viable. The Customer will also decide if I offer value for money.

Like I said before...my portfolio speaks for itself.

Simon

Well, I'm not entirely sure you've done the math properly on this. $200K means 10,000 logos per year. Based on a 5 day work week, 8 hours a day, you'd have to be churning out 4.8 logos per hour. That's about 12 and a half minutes per logo. That includes receiving and processing an order, communicating with the customer at least once or twice (probably more, on average), designing the actual logo, building it, tweaking it, presenting it to the customer for minor/major revisions, tweaking it some more, finalizing a design that is acceptable to the customer, getting sign-off approval and sending files to the customer. I hardly think you can do all that in just over 12 minutes. If you in fact can, then either you're super-human or you are just cookie-cutting logos at a production line rate. I don't care how creative and talented you are, the design process is just not that quick.

I have seen some logos designed by so-called designers that are not as good as some of my $20 logos. I have also seen some far better...but 2 or 3 times better...NEVER.

Wow. You've never seen any logos 2 or 3 times better than yours? That's a pretty arrogant statement. If that were the case, you wouldn't be peddling $20 logos to bargain hunters. You'd be in the top 10% elite group of designers in the world. You'd be charging $thousands of dollars per logo design, not $20.

I can almost understand the thinking behind your business. I don't like it, for it reaks havoc on respectable and reasonable market price levels for the rest of us. Just as there are individuals who look for the cheapest web hosting, there are those who look for the cheapest logo designs for their sites. So there definitely is a market there.

However, do not make such self-important claims that you never see logos that are 2-3 times better than yours. You lose credibility, and you look like you're pretending to be something you're not. Just call it what it is. You're catering to a market that isn't looking for high-level design, and the price reflects that.

Regarding the KMart analogy, it is flawed. We are not talking about an identical product selling for $1.99 in one store and $1.69 in another. First of all, it is the identical product. Secondly, I don't know about you, but if I see a $1.99 product selling for $1.69, I buy it. That's competitive pricing. But if I see a $1.99 product selling for $0.20, I wouldn't buy it. It has to be a reasonable and sensible discount. Then I feel I'm getting comparable value for a better price.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. If average web hosting was $10 per month, would you ever consider buying from a host who was offering hosting for $1 per month? If not, why not? I think you might get my point by examining your own answer to the question.

Vito

Wow, you have some great points, Vito. I enjoyed reading your posts.

Thanks, Synthetic.

To paraphrase something I read somewhere recently,

I have read some points made by so-called WHT members that are not as good as some of my points. I have also seen some far better...but 2 or 3 times better...NEVER.

:D :D :D

Vito

Vito, did you major in business by any chance? It sure seems like it.

No, I just draw from 22 years of owning various businesses.

Vito

and thats where real knowledge comes from........
business majors and the like will teach nothing........

However, Vito, why or how did you end up in this silly business......??

Hey, 21.

Heh, it's quite a change from my last business. I owned a spring water bottling plant for 18 years. I still have past associates looking at me with confusion. :)

I just love the challenge of exploring new business opportunities. And the Internet has alot of "uncharted waters" to explore. Thankfully, site design is just a small part of what I do online.

Vito

Originally posted by vito
Well, I'm not entirely sure you've done the math properly on this. $200K means 10,000 logos per year. Based on a 5 day work week, 8 hours a day, you'd have to be churning out 4.8 logos per hour. Vito

Hey Vito,

1. How many successful businessmen do you know that only worked 8 hours a day to build their business.

2. How many successful businessmen do you know that only worked 5 days a week to get where they were.

On top of that we offer a corporate Id Pack of Business Card, Logo and Letterhead for double the money...but not double the effort. That package is very popular. 60% of our orders are for the Corporate Identity pack.

For a SO-Called ex-captain of industry...your math is way out.

Think more like 16 hours a day and 6 days a week. Then think about expansion...then then then....

Don't belittle the consumer because they speak with their wallets. The Logo Company must be doing something right for them...because we do get repeat business as well.

Simon

<--- glad he made this post. we've got a nice debate goin :)

Originally posted by SimonMc
1. How many successful businessmen do you know that only worked 8 hours a day to build their business.
2. How many successful businessmen do you know that only worked 5 days a week to get where they were.
Personally, I work about 80-90 hours a week. But that's just me. I will not presume to speak for your working habits and dedication. That is why I cited the hours that I did.

Originally posted by SimonMc
On top of that we offer a corporate Id Pack of Business Card, Logo and Letterhead for double the money...but not double the effort. That package is very popular. 60% of our orders are for the Corporate Identity pack.
Great. Good to hear. I'm sure that helps the bottom line.

Originally posted by SimonMc
For a SO-Called ex-captain of industry...your math is way out.
You see, now this is why you and I are not cut from the same cloth, Simon. We were having a nice civil discussion about the industry as a whole. Yet you feel the need to be sarcastic and insulting to make your point. Do you feel you are not able to make your point intelligently without throwing insults? Is that how you deal with all issues? I never claimed to be a SO-Called ex-captain of industry. Synthetic asked me a question, and I answered it. Plain and simple. I did not start my discussion claiming any superiority of intellect or business acumen. I just expressed my opinions in an open forum. Yet you feel the urge to diminish this discussion with petty comments. Your choice, I guess. I know that personally, I wouldn't want to go through life with that kind of hostility...very unproductive... And besides, that "ex-captain" comment infers that I'm over the hill and retired. It's a struggle as it is to stay young. Don't rush me...

Originally posted by SimonMc
Don't belittle the consumer because they speak with their wallets. The Logo Company must be doing something right for them...because we do get repeat business as well.

What are you getting so defensive for, Simon? I never said you weren't successful. And I never belittled the consumer. I simply acknowledged that there is a specific market of bargain hunters, and you are catering to them. Personally, you can have them. There are bigger fish to fry, as far as I'm concerned. As I stated before, it's just not a market in which I try to compete.

In the meantime, Simon, when someone offers a point of view that you don't necessarily agree with, try to be civil with your replies. Otherwise, as in this case, all it does is make you appear as defensive, hostile, and lacking in maturity.

Vito

Originally posted by vito
Thanks, Synthetic.

To paraphrase something I read somewhere recently,

I have read some points made by so-called WHT members that are not as good as some of my points. I have also seen some far better...but 2 or 3 times better...NEVER.

:D :D :D

Vito

The real reason that you and I are not cut from the same cloth Vito..is when somebody pulls you over for your insulting and derogatory remarks....you get all defensive and say you never said a thing.

Well..the quote above says otherwise. The insult was only returned.

Simon

That was called "humor". Not an insult. Can you tell the difference?

Vito

Originally posted by vito
That was called "humor". Not an insult. Can you tell the difference?

Vito

Ah..well..in that case...I appologies most humbly. It's the 16 hour days that does it.

Simon

Great. The quibbling was starting to bore me, anyways. I appreciate the apology, Simon.

Back to the original post by DoobyWho.

Yes, a simple logo seems to be common with enterprise level companies. IBM, Macromedia, Adobe, Microsoft, and on and on. The challenge is oftentimes to present a "simple" logo to a customer and have them consider it more than just "plain text" that was contrived in 2 minutes. They tend to attach less value to it just because of its simplicity. I don't know what it is in the human psyche, but if we see a simple logo on a large company's site, we think it's brilliantly simple. Yet we, on a whole, tend to look for more intricate details in our own sites. That's why it really helps to get other's opinions to inject a bit of objectivity.

Most of the time, as a rule, less is more...

IMHO

Vito

I agree.

Simon what happened to your logo for Utopia Hosting? It was a great example of your non-template designs...

"Logos and Corporate Identity
http://logo.hostmob.com"

hay you should charge $30 and put the extra $10 towards a real domain name for u logo co......:stickout

Originally posted by jhcashman
"Logos and Corporate Identity
http://logo.hostmob.com"

hay you should charge $30 and put the extra $10 towards a real domain name for u logo co......:stickout

Really! I like it the way it is....!

Timechange...you can see the logo here:

Utopia Hosting Example Logo (http://logo.hostmob.com/view/utopia.jpg)


Simon

Originally posted by jhcashman
"Logos and Corporate Identity
http://logo.hostmob.com"

hay you should charge $30 and put the extra $10 towards a real domain name for u logo co......:stickout

...or $40 for a nice short 3-char domain from my large collection ;)

Originally posted by SimonMc


Really! I like it the way it is....!

Timechange...you can see the logo here:

Utopia Hosting Example Logo (http://logo.hostmob.com/view/utopia.jpg)


Simon

Thanks, for some reason it would not load earlier.

Originally posted by timechange


Thanks, for some reason it would not load earlier.

Probably my $1 a year webhost down again.

Simon

Originally posted by SimonMc


Probably my $1 a year webhost down again.

Simon

See? Now there's that thing called humor... :D :D :D

Vito

On the topic of logos...

Am I the only one sick of seeing companies reuse and reuse this logo design (the inverted nike swoosh look)

What do you want a logo for??

You want it to be recognizable, for branding. So it must be:
1) simple
2) unique

And that's it.

Well SimonMc.....

I'm fairly sure that your point in originally posting to the thread was to prove that people actually do make money by selling $20 logos... On the other hand I am really appaled at the fact that you made no less than 6 advertisments, self-promoting, praises in your conversation.



Just take a look at the portfolio
Some of the testimonials I have received from happy customers over the last few weeks are testamony to the fact the The Logo Company provides a service where there is a gap in the market
I also promised earlier that I would be uploading another page to my portfolio
On top of that we offer a corporate Id Pack of Business Card, Logo and Letterhead for double the money
The Logo Company must be doing something right for them
Timechange...you can see the logo here


On Top of That.... You also contradicted yourself


I have also seen some far better...but 2 or 3 times better...NEVER
We do not pretend to be the greatest designers in the world



All of that aside (which quite frankly is moderatley hard to put aside). The entire point of the Dooby's post was about logo designs' attributes of cost and simplicty.

I'm in complete agreement w/ Vito. Web vs. Print Media is a very, very large gap. The requirments for designs b/twn the two are very large. In cost? Again in agreement w/ Vito. In the end you always get what you pay for, whether you like it or not. If I pay a company $20, or $50 dollars for that matter, for a complete logo, IMO I don't really think it would be usable in a business sense. If your a flash in the pan reseller, sure what do you have to loose; it'll look better than what you could whip up in MSPaint. But, a business: A true business, offices, employees, income regardless of the industry alot of factors and money go into a logo.

A logo in it, of itself, is an identity. Usually most web designs will be based around a logo and/or it's color scheme in general. Yes, you can design (I have as well) a logo to fit an existing design but, 8 times out of 10 it will look out of place. A business on the web (for webhosts especially, b/c usually it will be the only form of contact b/twn a customer) the web design is probably the most critical component.

A web design, is your company. It's look, feel, and touch (user interaction) give the customer feedback mentally of what the company is. A plain jane website might deter customers from a company that is in a high-tech field. An excessivly flashly and distracting website might scare off customers in a retail setting. Incorporated into that design is the logo. It is the company, IMO.

I don't entirely agree w/ the point that a Fortune 500 companies logo and a webhost's logo are different. Yes, it is obvious that a great deal more effort and money go into a larger corporations design but, the function of it is identical.

But, what is in a logo? An image of a clown for a finincal institution would deter all but, sadistic customers. That industry you want your logo to convey strength, trust, integrity, and longevity. In a children's market, you want a simple, bright, playful logo that displays happiness, and friendly traits. The webhosting industry is one that is obviously high-tech (from an outsiders point of view :D) so you want to convey a high-tech look. This usually can't be done w/ a simple logo. Take a look at the extremely successful hosts webdesigns. The designs are simple and easy to navigate but, they do appear high-tech and give a proffessional thought out look to them.

All media design, be it print, web, or outdoor advertising, has a great amount of physcology involved (be it a conscience or subconscience thought of the designer). It is the effect of this physcology that is what determines the successfulness of the design itself.... I personally don't believe that I can purchase this for $20.

Originally posted by Studio64
Take a look at the extremely successful hosts webdesigns. The designs are simple and easy to navigate but, they do appear high-tech and give a proffessional thought out look to them.

All media design, be it print, web, or outdoor advertising, has a great amount of physcology involved (be it a conscience or subconscience thought of the designer). It is the effect of this physcology that is what determines the successfulness of the design itself.... I personally don't believe that I can purchase this for $20.

Have you tried?

REMEMBER...PROOF...Not feelings. Any one can say..I feel this...I feel that...etc etc....and then they can come back and say...OH but it is only my opinion.....well...I for one would like to see you back it up with COLD hard facts.

Oh..and have you seen McHosts Logo...Very Plain..Very Bland...Not high tech at all...but what a success story.

(The Logo Company has nothing to do with the McHost Logo---Just in case you think we are claiming the design).

If Joe blogs designed the Nike flash for Jimmy Riddle Incorporated...do you think you would recognise it today. NO....The bigger picture is the fact that Nike could have had a picture of a steaming dog turd..and then thrown a few billion at it..then every body would say...That dog turd is so COOL!


Simon

Originally posted by SimonMc
Well put Vito.

Things can get pretty competetive in the real world too. Look at KMART...pile them high...sell them cheap!!! Great for the consumer. At the end of the day the CUSTOMER and the CUSTOMER only will decide if my business is viable.

Simon

<wisecrack>
Ahem- I have been a repeat customer for KMart... didn't they go bankrupt anyways?
</wisecrack>

I'm kidding- I hope your business is serving you well. I can't imagine spending the time to design something for a half hours' orth of pay.
But seriosuly, I agree with the original poster aout a few things, a logo has to be printable, scalable, and simple. You can spice it up for the web (I put some comets flying around mine) but one has to keep in mind that larger clients need things like ...paperwork...
This has been an entertaining thread so far-