Duster
02-23-2001, 11:41 PM
This was meant to be part of one of the discussions about spam. I previewed it and must not have posted it. Argghh. I have done that about 4 times now and it is frustrating, especially with detailed, lengthy posts
I advocate terminating the accounts of deliberate spammers and showing no mercy, no second chances. However, as with so many things in life (most of them), there are no absolutes. Also, and this is most important, a host must be absolutely sure that a customer is indeed a spammer and deliberately spammed.
Since the term spam is so misused, I will define it before I go on. I am referring to e-mail spam, not spam on newsgroups, which is where the term originated and whose definition is a bit more complex. E-mail spam is unsolicited bulk e-mail. It is not necessarily commercial, though much of it is.
There are several reasons web site abuse departments require the full headers be sent with any report of spam (and other abuses). While most spammers are stupid and have the I.Q. of an amoeba, there are a few clever, cunning ones. These are the ones who create the spam software and initiate the dirty tricks spammers are known for. They probably make their money from selling their spamware to the many moron spammers (pardon the redundancy).
There are also idiots in the world. The tale that follows is about two such idiots. One received a message that was a reply to spam and reported it as spam, the other is a company that listed it as a spam source. I know it to be true as it happened to me.
My position about spamming and spammers is well known here (unless someone just arrived on the forum) and I think most of you would believe me, without hesitation, when I say that I have never spammed and never will. You might imagine how :angry: I was when, in December, through Google, I came across a site that had my primary e-mail address (from my scuba diving site) listed as a known spam source. Not very much gets me angry these days, and that sure did.
I was going to condense the stupid remarks, and reconsidered. Although the exchange is a bit lengthy, I think it will be both more accurate and revealing if I include the entire exchange, as I did with my first post here about AIT. Not only will you not have to wonder about what I said, but you can see the faulty reasoning (or lack of reason) on their end.
It serves as a lesson that one must be careful in accusing someone of being a spammer. Even people that claim to know what they are doing can be idiots that recklessly and falsely accuse people of being spammers and make no effort to think.
On December 30, I sent them the following message entitled A lie on your site:
Hi,
reference
spam.webeasy.com:8080/spam/spam_download_table_sendmail
On your list of sites and e-mail addresses from spam sources, you list divemaster -@- diverlink.com as a known spam source. That is a lie. No spam has ever been sent from that domain.
You should learn more about spam and the dirty tricks that spammers use before you go including innocent people on your list. One of their tricks is to forge someone else's address and/or domain name. This may be what happened to you. However it is incumbent upon you to verify the authenticity before you go besmirching the integrity of a site. It is a simple thing to do. For one thing, you could have visited diverlink.com first. You would have seen that there is nothing to be gained by me spamming.
I sell nothing, have no advertising banners or affiliate programs, and the policies against spamming are easy to find.
I was spammed on Christmas day by elfoutlet.com using my server's domain name, which I've only had for about 6 months. I've owned diverlink.com for over 4 years. I'm not aware of any case where the name was forged, but I suppose it could have happened.
If you knew how much I detest spammers, you might have some idea of how angry I was at seeing my address included on your list. I even have a list on my site of businesses to boycott for spamming. (see http://diverlink.com/boycott.htm) However, I have to remind myself that we have a common enemy (spammers) and should excuse your ignorance, once.
All the same, I shall expect my address to be removed from your list. I consider it libel and defamation of character. It is a lie.
See http://mail-abuse-org http:/members.tripod.com/~SpamCanners and links from both sites for information on spam, including how to read headers and detect forgeries
______________________________
I sent it again a week later, on January 6 (last month) marked Second Message
On January 12, I received a reply. It said
Your business was listed because of this submission - you send unsolicited mail to someone and did not stop. Can you confirm your policies? If you cannot, your name will not be removed. The message we received is as follows:
I am a webmistress for a very large Automobile Club and would certainly NOT need the services of another Travel network. Not only that but none of the employees at this location have even ever been Scuba Diving! Due to the size of our site and the amount of locations we have, many emails are listed on our site making this email repeatedly sent to us over 100 times in the last 2 months:(ps. can you remove the references to my email before posting? If notI understand, I just dont want to geteven more spam.)
While they did not send the entire message, they did send the headers which contained the subject line: Subject: Spamming is not acceptable
Between that and the date, I rapidly figured out what happened and told them of it. I had received spam from the PADI Travel Network (the travel department of the largest scuba certification agency) entitled "Here's the information you requested about Cozumel". Of course. I had requested no such information. See Rule #1 (Spammers lie). I replied to them Spamming is not acceptable (in the subject line) and reprimanded them in the body of the message. I also added them to the boycott list on my site.
____________________________________________
My reply to them was:
You can find my policies at http://diverlink.com/spamnotice.htm That page has been up there for 4 years, since the start of the site. Here's another one http://diverlink.com/boycott.htm that indicates my position on spamming.
Furthermore, spam is the sending of BULK unsolicited e-mail, not merely unsolicited e-mail. Even further, the very subject of the submission was a protest against spamming, which should have given you a clue that I was not spamming myself.
Based on that message, I can surmise what may have happened, as it has happened to me 2 or 3 times.
Remember that spammers use all kinds of dirty tricks and lies. Some have their mailings rigged so that any response, even in protest, gets sent to all other recipients. The first time I had that happen to me was when I protested spam from some site for homosexuals (with the usual lie that I was receiving it because I went to their site and signed up for it). All of us that replied in protest ended up mailing to each other.
The case you cited seems to be similar. Christmas day I was spammed by a site that hijacked my server domain name (sent out as elfoutlet@ns.techcellence.net).
Nevertheless, you guys need to get a clue. You can't go listing people as spammers when they are victims. You need to educate yourselves on the dirty tricks that they use and USE YOUR BRAINS. A protest against spamming (my message) is hardly likely to be intentional spam. Duh! It is incumbent on you to verify that any submission at least appears to be spam. Mine did not, for reasons already stated. I have never spammed and never will!
Aside from the tremendous disrespect and annoyance to people, I don't sell anything and don't have any ad banners. Diverlink is strictly an informational resource for scuba divers. The only mailing list I ever had was a very infrequent one to diving clubs listed on site, with specific information for clubs (how to revitalize a club, etc.) and I haven't even sent that out in 2 years since I lost my address book in a hard drive crash. There would be no point whatsoever in mailing to anyone else.
Failure to exercise good judgment can cost you in other ways. It should not have taken 3 messages to get a response. If not for the fact that we are on the same side in the battle against spam, I would have taken further action already.
Now that you have acknowledged the facts, I will expect my e-mail address to be removed from your list. You should contact Google.com and have them remove their cached version of the page, or at least refresh it after you remove my address.
____________________________________________________________
An addendum I sent after I researched it further:
I just checked the boycott page I have on my site,. It appears that the message that was received was from the PADI Travel Network. Although the date isn't listed on the boycott page, it would be about the time of the date according to the message you sent me (since a later was received just a few months after that).
I had learned not to respond to the majority of spammers. I know PADI, they are also a diving certification agency - the Professional Association of Dive Instructors, and I remember protesting to them.
Based on all available evidence, the scenario I mentioned in my message a few moments ago is exactly what happened. PADI sent out spam. When I protested, it went to other recipients on the list (note the submission you received said the spam she got was about another travel network). She didn't know any better than to realize it did not originate from me. However, YOU should have checked before adding my address to your list.
______________________________________________________
Their reply:
Unsolicited mail, bulk or not is the issue. Did you remove the person from your list when asked? If so, I can proceed in removing your name. Also, even if people hijack your name, this service is for mail server admins - it allows them to filter known bad addresses - hijacked or not. I am sorry if you are in a bunch about this, but your tone has been less than business like. As for the turnaround, it has been the holiday season, so things have been slow as we are getting rid of our backlog.
____________________________________________________________
My response:
Did you read my message? She was never on a mailing list of mine. The spammer (PADI Travel Network) had their list rigged so that responses went to other recipients on the list. My address was not hijacked nor is it a bad address.
My server's domain was hijacked on Christmas, though it doesn't appear on your list, nor should it.
As far as my tone, it is civil yet stern. With no effort to prove or disprove an accusation of being a spammer, you add my address to a list and accuse me of being one. I was FURIOUS when I read that. If you read the warning to spammers and boycott notice on my site, you might have an inkling of why.
The fault is yours. Take responsibility for it. I included links where you can learn what you should know. You can't go around falsely accusing people of being spammers, at least not without consequences.
You might want to exclude your list from being spidered and cached by search engines. It will protect other victims from your unjustified accusations.
________________________________________________
Their reply:
Look , I will take you off the list, however the truth is that from a mail server's point of view, it uses the from address for filtering. Trust me, I write mail software, I understand how spammers, open relays and forging all works.
I can also understand that you are upset, but getting hot under the collar and calling people damn liars is just not going to win you any friends here or anywhere.
My advice to you would be to learn some courtesy when dealing with people. I am not surprised as to why people have hijacked your email address after this brief encounter.
As for your email, it will be removed today - it will most likely take a few weeks to get respidered by everyone.
Have a good day.
_____________________________________
My response:
> Look, I will take you off the list,
Good.
> however the truth is that from a mail server's
> point of view, it uses the from address for filtering. Trust me, I write mail software,
> I understand how spammers, open relays and forging all works.
Which makes your error all the more grievous, then, since you can't claim ignorance as an excuse.
>
>
> I can also understand that you are upset, but getting hot under the collar and calling
> people damn liars is just not going to win you any friends here or anywhere.
I referred to a lie on your site and did not call any people liars. I'm not looking to make friends at your company, just have you rectify a willful and wanton defamation of character.
>
>
> My advice to you would be to learn some courtesy when dealing with people. I am not
> surprised as to why people have hijacked your email address after this brief encounter.
My advice to you would be not to be so inept and cavalier about reputations and not take libel so lightly.. :P
Own up to your screw ups.
>
> As for your email, it will be removed today - it will most likely take a few weeks to
> get respidered by everyone.
Good. That settles the matter.
________________________________________________
Their reply:
You are a big *******. I hope that MAPS or RBL lists you for something. The people that spammed with your name are justified in my opinion. Get a life.
-MA (Michael Amster)
_____________________________________
My response:
Insults are the refuge of the incompetent.
____________________________________
Their reply: (notice that they can't spell incompetent, even though I showed them how)
Addressed to An incompetant webmaster
Typical libertarian bull****. You may be some hot shot diver, but your understanding of RFP1829 is for pretty shoddy. One of these days when you write some sendmail filters or setup your own mail server, give me a call. For now you can stop wasting my time.
Good day,
-MA
[Edited by Duster on 02-24-2001 at 02:23 AM]
I advocate terminating the accounts of deliberate spammers and showing no mercy, no second chances. However, as with so many things in life (most of them), there are no absolutes. Also, and this is most important, a host must be absolutely sure that a customer is indeed a spammer and deliberately spammed.
Since the term spam is so misused, I will define it before I go on. I am referring to e-mail spam, not spam on newsgroups, which is where the term originated and whose definition is a bit more complex. E-mail spam is unsolicited bulk e-mail. It is not necessarily commercial, though much of it is.
There are several reasons web site abuse departments require the full headers be sent with any report of spam (and other abuses). While most spammers are stupid and have the I.Q. of an amoeba, there are a few clever, cunning ones. These are the ones who create the spam software and initiate the dirty tricks spammers are known for. They probably make their money from selling their spamware to the many moron spammers (pardon the redundancy).
There are also idiots in the world. The tale that follows is about two such idiots. One received a message that was a reply to spam and reported it as spam, the other is a company that listed it as a spam source. I know it to be true as it happened to me.
My position about spamming and spammers is well known here (unless someone just arrived on the forum) and I think most of you would believe me, without hesitation, when I say that I have never spammed and never will. You might imagine how :angry: I was when, in December, through Google, I came across a site that had my primary e-mail address (from my scuba diving site) listed as a known spam source. Not very much gets me angry these days, and that sure did.
I was going to condense the stupid remarks, and reconsidered. Although the exchange is a bit lengthy, I think it will be both more accurate and revealing if I include the entire exchange, as I did with my first post here about AIT. Not only will you not have to wonder about what I said, but you can see the faulty reasoning (or lack of reason) on their end.
It serves as a lesson that one must be careful in accusing someone of being a spammer. Even people that claim to know what they are doing can be idiots that recklessly and falsely accuse people of being spammers and make no effort to think.
On December 30, I sent them the following message entitled A lie on your site:
Hi,
reference
spam.webeasy.com:8080/spam/spam_download_table_sendmail
On your list of sites and e-mail addresses from spam sources, you list divemaster -@- diverlink.com as a known spam source. That is a lie. No spam has ever been sent from that domain.
You should learn more about spam and the dirty tricks that spammers use before you go including innocent people on your list. One of their tricks is to forge someone else's address and/or domain name. This may be what happened to you. However it is incumbent upon you to verify the authenticity before you go besmirching the integrity of a site. It is a simple thing to do. For one thing, you could have visited diverlink.com first. You would have seen that there is nothing to be gained by me spamming.
I sell nothing, have no advertising banners or affiliate programs, and the policies against spamming are easy to find.
I was spammed on Christmas day by elfoutlet.com using my server's domain name, which I've only had for about 6 months. I've owned diverlink.com for over 4 years. I'm not aware of any case where the name was forged, but I suppose it could have happened.
If you knew how much I detest spammers, you might have some idea of how angry I was at seeing my address included on your list. I even have a list on my site of businesses to boycott for spamming. (see http://diverlink.com/boycott.htm) However, I have to remind myself that we have a common enemy (spammers) and should excuse your ignorance, once.
All the same, I shall expect my address to be removed from your list. I consider it libel and defamation of character. It is a lie.
See http://mail-abuse-org http:/members.tripod.com/~SpamCanners and links from both sites for information on spam, including how to read headers and detect forgeries
______________________________
I sent it again a week later, on January 6 (last month) marked Second Message
On January 12, I received a reply. It said
Your business was listed because of this submission - you send unsolicited mail to someone and did not stop. Can you confirm your policies? If you cannot, your name will not be removed. The message we received is as follows:
I am a webmistress for a very large Automobile Club and would certainly NOT need the services of another Travel network. Not only that but none of the employees at this location have even ever been Scuba Diving! Due to the size of our site and the amount of locations we have, many emails are listed on our site making this email repeatedly sent to us over 100 times in the last 2 months:(ps. can you remove the references to my email before posting? If notI understand, I just dont want to geteven more spam.)
While they did not send the entire message, they did send the headers which contained the subject line: Subject: Spamming is not acceptable
Between that and the date, I rapidly figured out what happened and told them of it. I had received spam from the PADI Travel Network (the travel department of the largest scuba certification agency) entitled "Here's the information you requested about Cozumel". Of course. I had requested no such information. See Rule #1 (Spammers lie). I replied to them Spamming is not acceptable (in the subject line) and reprimanded them in the body of the message. I also added them to the boycott list on my site.
____________________________________________
My reply to them was:
You can find my policies at http://diverlink.com/spamnotice.htm That page has been up there for 4 years, since the start of the site. Here's another one http://diverlink.com/boycott.htm that indicates my position on spamming.
Furthermore, spam is the sending of BULK unsolicited e-mail, not merely unsolicited e-mail. Even further, the very subject of the submission was a protest against spamming, which should have given you a clue that I was not spamming myself.
Based on that message, I can surmise what may have happened, as it has happened to me 2 or 3 times.
Remember that spammers use all kinds of dirty tricks and lies. Some have their mailings rigged so that any response, even in protest, gets sent to all other recipients. The first time I had that happen to me was when I protested spam from some site for homosexuals (with the usual lie that I was receiving it because I went to their site and signed up for it). All of us that replied in protest ended up mailing to each other.
The case you cited seems to be similar. Christmas day I was spammed by a site that hijacked my server domain name (sent out as elfoutlet@ns.techcellence.net).
Nevertheless, you guys need to get a clue. You can't go listing people as spammers when they are victims. You need to educate yourselves on the dirty tricks that they use and USE YOUR BRAINS. A protest against spamming (my message) is hardly likely to be intentional spam. Duh! It is incumbent on you to verify that any submission at least appears to be spam. Mine did not, for reasons already stated. I have never spammed and never will!
Aside from the tremendous disrespect and annoyance to people, I don't sell anything and don't have any ad banners. Diverlink is strictly an informational resource for scuba divers. The only mailing list I ever had was a very infrequent one to diving clubs listed on site, with specific information for clubs (how to revitalize a club, etc.) and I haven't even sent that out in 2 years since I lost my address book in a hard drive crash. There would be no point whatsoever in mailing to anyone else.
Failure to exercise good judgment can cost you in other ways. It should not have taken 3 messages to get a response. If not for the fact that we are on the same side in the battle against spam, I would have taken further action already.
Now that you have acknowledged the facts, I will expect my e-mail address to be removed from your list. You should contact Google.com and have them remove their cached version of the page, or at least refresh it after you remove my address.
____________________________________________________________
An addendum I sent after I researched it further:
I just checked the boycott page I have on my site,. It appears that the message that was received was from the PADI Travel Network. Although the date isn't listed on the boycott page, it would be about the time of the date according to the message you sent me (since a later was received just a few months after that).
I had learned not to respond to the majority of spammers. I know PADI, they are also a diving certification agency - the Professional Association of Dive Instructors, and I remember protesting to them.
Based on all available evidence, the scenario I mentioned in my message a few moments ago is exactly what happened. PADI sent out spam. When I protested, it went to other recipients on the list (note the submission you received said the spam she got was about another travel network). She didn't know any better than to realize it did not originate from me. However, YOU should have checked before adding my address to your list.
______________________________________________________
Their reply:
Unsolicited mail, bulk or not is the issue. Did you remove the person from your list when asked? If so, I can proceed in removing your name. Also, even if people hijack your name, this service is for mail server admins - it allows them to filter known bad addresses - hijacked or not. I am sorry if you are in a bunch about this, but your tone has been less than business like. As for the turnaround, it has been the holiday season, so things have been slow as we are getting rid of our backlog.
____________________________________________________________
My response:
Did you read my message? She was never on a mailing list of mine. The spammer (PADI Travel Network) had their list rigged so that responses went to other recipients on the list. My address was not hijacked nor is it a bad address.
My server's domain was hijacked on Christmas, though it doesn't appear on your list, nor should it.
As far as my tone, it is civil yet stern. With no effort to prove or disprove an accusation of being a spammer, you add my address to a list and accuse me of being one. I was FURIOUS when I read that. If you read the warning to spammers and boycott notice on my site, you might have an inkling of why.
The fault is yours. Take responsibility for it. I included links where you can learn what you should know. You can't go around falsely accusing people of being spammers, at least not without consequences.
You might want to exclude your list from being spidered and cached by search engines. It will protect other victims from your unjustified accusations.
________________________________________________
Their reply:
Look , I will take you off the list, however the truth is that from a mail server's point of view, it uses the from address for filtering. Trust me, I write mail software, I understand how spammers, open relays and forging all works.
I can also understand that you are upset, but getting hot under the collar and calling people damn liars is just not going to win you any friends here or anywhere.
My advice to you would be to learn some courtesy when dealing with people. I am not surprised as to why people have hijacked your email address after this brief encounter.
As for your email, it will be removed today - it will most likely take a few weeks to get respidered by everyone.
Have a good day.
_____________________________________
My response:
> Look, I will take you off the list,
Good.
> however the truth is that from a mail server's
> point of view, it uses the from address for filtering. Trust me, I write mail software,
> I understand how spammers, open relays and forging all works.
Which makes your error all the more grievous, then, since you can't claim ignorance as an excuse.
>
>
> I can also understand that you are upset, but getting hot under the collar and calling
> people damn liars is just not going to win you any friends here or anywhere.
I referred to a lie on your site and did not call any people liars. I'm not looking to make friends at your company, just have you rectify a willful and wanton defamation of character.
>
>
> My advice to you would be to learn some courtesy when dealing with people. I am not
> surprised as to why people have hijacked your email address after this brief encounter.
My advice to you would be not to be so inept and cavalier about reputations and not take libel so lightly.. :P
Own up to your screw ups.
>
> As for your email, it will be removed today - it will most likely take a few weeks to
> get respidered by everyone.
Good. That settles the matter.
________________________________________________
Their reply:
You are a big *******. I hope that MAPS or RBL lists you for something. The people that spammed with your name are justified in my opinion. Get a life.
-MA (Michael Amster)
_____________________________________
My response:
Insults are the refuge of the incompetent.
____________________________________
Their reply: (notice that they can't spell incompetent, even though I showed them how)
Addressed to An incompetant webmaster
Typical libertarian bull****. You may be some hot shot diver, but your understanding of RFP1829 is for pretty shoddy. One of these days when you write some sendmail filters or setup your own mail server, give me a call. For now you can stop wasting my time.
Good day,
-MA
[Edited by Duster on 02-24-2001 at 02:23 AM]