Hello,

One thing I find strange on some hosting sites is that fact that some of their features mention the word FREE next to it. For example, I took this feature list from a host:

FOR JUST $199, YOU GET:
3 YEARS OF OUR SERVICES

- 100MB Of Space
- 2,000MB Of Transfer
- Online Control Panel
- FREE CGI-Bin
- FREE FTP Access
- FREE POP3 Accounts
- FREE Shopping Cart
- FREE AutoResponders
- FREE Telnet/SSH Access
- PERL, PHP, SSI, mySQL
- 99% Guaranteed UpTime!
- FREE ONLINE Support
- NO ADS
- NO Monthly Fees

Aren't you really paying for the free things, or can you take the auto responders and the pop3 accounts (forget the space and, etc.) -- for free?

Just wondering...

You're absolutely right. None of those things are free at all.

There are many words that have been so misused that they must be defined rather than used for what they really mean. The word "free" was abused long before the Internet became mainstream.

Free means no cost and no obligation. It is still used for its true meaning, and often must be defined because of those abuses. Some typical ones are:

Buy 1 get, 1 free (the second is not free since it requires purchasing the first).

Free sunglassses as a marketing test - $7.95 for shipping and handling. Comes with free lifetime replacement warranty - $7.95 S&H for replacements. (needs no explanation)

Free printer with computer purchase (the printer is not free, it is at no additional cost - not the same thing. It still requires purchase of the computer.)

Free web site or e-mail (when pop up banners or any other terms that include links or advertising of some sort, including being on a mailing list are included, it is not free, just at no financial cost. There is still an obligation to receive or display advertising, which negates the "free" part.)

The word free is often misued and abused in place of accurate words like bonus, gift, etc. and has lost its value as an accurate description of what free truly means.

[Edited by Duster on 02-23-2001 at 05:47 PM]

Ya we have a special right now, for $199 you get everything we have for FREE :):):)


ATTN: CDS
*This is just a joke, not a real offer. Dont move it to the advertising*

Originally posted by Jag
ATTN: CDS
*This is just a joke, not a real offer. Dont move it to the advertising*
I don't know .. that sounds like shameless advertising to me ;)

Its about as good as unlimited... :)

Originally posted by cbaker17
Its about as good as unlimited... :)
The most fundamental/basic thing everybody needs is air (not a 200Meg hosting), and guess what? It's free! Only GOD can afford giving free air to everybody (7 billion people!).
And that's the only free thing I can come up with :D :D :D

cheers,
:beer:

I do things for free all the time....

Originally posted by JTY
I do things for free all the time....

Will you design my site, configuring my merchant account to work so that I can accept credit card for free too? I will definitely be interested! :D :D

cheers,
:beer:

I give out free gas.. not gasoline.. ;)

Hmm, free gas.....

Its a marketing trick. Thats how 'advertising' works. I dun see anything wrong with it.

free air?
Probably the only reason it is free at the moment is because there is no way to calculate how much of it you use.
I would not be suprised if in the future we'll have to pay for clean air.

There is a way to calculate how much air someone uses and it's not always free. Just ask any scuba diver!

Originally posted by dektong
Originally posted by cbaker17
Its about as good as unlimited... :)
The most fundamental/basic thing everybody needs is air (not a 200Meg hosting), and guess what? It's free! Only GOD can afford giving free air to everybody (7 billion people!).
And that's the only free thing I can come up with :D :D :D

cheers,
:beer:

Just over 6 billion actually :D

At the rate we're going at they probably will come up with the great idea of charging for free air - Because it would be in the best interests of the people of course.

It can be done.

Pollute the air, and then sell clean air. :angel:

I would not be suprised if in the future we'll have to pay for clean air.

I believe this is already happening, I think it was Mexico City, where they were selling tanks of oxygen on the street due to heavy pollution and smog.

That wouldn't suprise me at all. Never been there but pictures of Mexico City on TV make Los Angeles look pristine!!

Back to the topic:

Adding 'free' to the list of features is a bit of an odd way to do it, but yeah, I suppose they *could* charge for them - hosts used to charge extra for quite a few things that are considered part of the package now. I remember Dreamhost accounts didn't even have a CGI-BIN for $10 a month accounts, only a year ago. You had to pay for the $20 a month plan, or whatever it was to get basic functions like that.

They'd probably be better off using 'included' instead of free to anyone with a basic idea of how it all works, but people *do* like to see the word free - whether it's legit or not

Greg Moore

Since I'm the CTO at a company that's being posted above, I'd like to explain this a little further.

It's marketing! The way advertising works is by exagerating a bit of what they really offer. We could post all ofour information on the main page, but I really don't see the point.

We are not trying to cheat anyone, but the way I see it is that a client basically pays for space and bandwidth. Everything else is simply an addon for their account. This is different from unlimited. We show our limits on our hosting page, so the client knows what he's buying before he actually does.

Usually if the client is interested in a certain plan, but he needs more, for example, subdomains, we just give it to him at no charge because subdomains don't really have a value to us. We post a limit to prevent people from abusing them (ie. offering free hosting), but that's all.

We can argue about this for days, but this is the way that marketing is.

Boris
p.s. I'm disabling my signature because I don't want this reply to be considered advertising.

echoweb,

actually that's pretty much the way I was looking at it, in the way you were doing it. The monthly fee is for the hosting space, and you throw in the CGI-BIN etc for nothing as opposed to charging for them and adding it to the price. In the end it's a case of semantics, and there's nothing wrong with doing it that way. It doesn't reflect poorly on your business model at all :) As you say, it's advertising. I'd rather see a company advertise the way you do than a *lot* of others who offer unsustainable, or even outright false, claims on their pages. People like that do a diservice of both customers and legitimate businesses.

At times people on this board can get a little rightous in their defense of truth justice and the american way, but in general they are trying to make the world a better place :) I wouldn't worry about it too much - the average hosting consumer is pretty smart these days and will be able to see the offer you present isn't trying to be misleading.

Greg Moore

Originally posted by echoweb
Since I'm the CTO at a company that's being posted above, I'd like to explain this a little further.

It's marketing! The way advertising works is by exagerating a bit of what they really offer.

We can argue about this for days, but this is the way that marketing is.

It's a lie. Saying it's okay because it's marketing is a lame excuse. That's not how marketing works. That's how lousy marketers work.

It's a simple thing to use accurate terms like "included"

We have dozens, perhaps hundreds of words, that can't be used unless they are defined because of lousy marketing,, You can call it exaggeration, hyperbole, or marketing. It's still a lie.

More important than the words is the lack of respect for potential customers by misleading and deceiving. For any company that says "but that's not our intent", I say, then why lie in the first place? Why not use accurate terms unless the intent is to deceive?

Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. We are not misleading anyone. These features ARE FREE with every account. Yes, there is a limit but it doesn't mean that you need to pay anything to use them.

Another reason why we put the word free on our sidebar is also because we have a limited amount of space there.

Boris

Hey check this out!

Free webhosting!!
Unlimited Storage

Note*
each gb of bandwidth cost 1,000 USD
a month

Give me a break. I think it's really low to compare this to unlimited things. It's a completely different situation. We NEVER say that it's unlimited - just that it comes at no charge with every account.

Boris

Originally posted by echoweb
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. We are not misleading anyone. These features ARE FREE with every account.
NO THEY ARE NOT! You don't know what free is and you're not paying attention. We have discussed what "free" REALLY means in this discussion.


Another reason why we put the word free on our sidebar is also because we have a limited amount of space there.


So it's okay to lie because telling the truth takes up too much space?

Let's see - F R E E - 4 letters

I N C L U D E D - 8 letters

Yep, I can see where those extra 4 letters create a real problem.

It would probably be tough to say:

ALL THIS INCLUDED
- CGI-Bin
- FTP Access
- POP3 Accounts
- Shopping Cart
- AutoResponders
- Telnet/SSH Access
- PERL, PHP, SSI, mySQL

The only thing worse than someone who lies is someone who defends the practice of lying. They often do it by saying that everyone else lies too so it's okay for them to do it. They may also change the name from lying to marketing.

It might seem like I'm making a big deal of it. I don't think so. The problem is endemic and reflective of what I consider a poor attitude for several reasons. When telling the truth and using accurate terms are sacrificed, what other areas will they be sacrificed in?

If a company won't be bothered to get such a simple thing right and tell the truth, how could they be trusted to do it for a more serious issue?

Remember former President Clinton's problem with the truth and keeping his fly zipped? If he didn't have the integrity to tell the nation "Yes, it's true, Monica Lewinsky performed oral sex on me in the White House. I'm embarrased and don't want to discuss it further.", why would we believe he could be trusted to tell the truth on serious matters?

I sure wouldn't.


[Edited by Duster on 02-25-2001 at 10:16 PM]

Although I agree that 'included' might be a better choice of wording, I don't see it as a big deal either. Shopping carts, mysql... these are some things that some hosts charge extra for. With this account they are included at no cost, in other words, free, no charge, zip.

Unlimited? ::shudder:: now that's a whole different cupcake.

Originally posted by echoweb
Personally, I don't see what the big deal is. We are not misleading anyone

That's a damn lie!

|> Our Premium Web Hosting Costs $0/month!

Sure, because you pay $199 at one clip for 3 years. It seems like a cost of $5.527777 monthly to me, even if paid once every 3 years.

Choices:
HostVelocity is one of the only hosts that offer different hosting and design solutions for virtually any kind of a business. Whether you are looking to host a huge, high-traffic corporate site that requires a lot of resources and maintenance or a small, personal one, we have exactly what you need for the price that's just right.

Sure, one of the only hosts among thousands who can do that.

3) Spamming, or the sending of unsolicited email, from a HostVelocity server or using an email address or domain that is maintained on an HostVelocity machine as reference is STRICTLY prohibited.
Another host forbidding normal e-mail communication between parties because they haven't a clue what spamming is so they can't define it properly.

From their Terms of Service in the section termed FINE PRINT:
2) If for any reason you are unsatisfied with our service within your first 30 days of usage, simply let us know and we will refund all your fees. Plus, there is no advanced notification to give, no paperwork to fill out, no red tape or catches whatsoever. After the 30 days expire, you will not be able to receive any kind of a refund.

Ah, but wait they don't really mean all your fees. Just below that clause, only much smaller (the REAL fine print), it says:
* 15% of the total sum will NOT be refunded in order for us to cover setup and paperwork costs
If they donlt want to mislead, then why not put the fact that they will retain 15% ($29.85 for setup) in the paragraph above, the same size as the rest? They can't use the "no room on the sidebar" excuse this time.

Oh, excuse me. It's not lying, it's marketing. That's what Clinton was doing when he denied having sex in the Oral Office. He was marketing to the nation.

[Edited by Duster on 02-25-2001 at 10:45 PM]

Once again, I fail to see the point in comparing us with Clinton. Besides, his private life is non of our business and even though he did lie, he only did so, because everyone made such a HUGE deal out of it. I wouldn't want the whole country know that I had an affair either (if I did) ... that would be something for me and for my spouse to work on.

Yes, we take back 15% of our ONE-TIME plan if the client wants to cancel, but only because we have to pay almost 10% of the total sum to our credit card processor.

I really don't see the point in having this discussion. If a client asks us about something (ie. 30-day money back policy), we'll tell him. All they have to do is ask.

Fine, maybe we do have a couple of flwas, but so does every single business in the world. No one is perfect and if I might add, we provide a pretty good services for our clients - isn't that all that matters?.

If you want to continue this, fine, but I think it'd be better if we discussed this in private. Contact me by eMail, ICQ, AIM or LiveHelper.

Boris

Originally posted by echoweb
Once again, I fail to see the point in comparing us with Clinton.
That wasn't the point. I know a lot of people have problems understanding similes, metaphors and allegories. However, the point was stated immediately prior to the example with Clinton. Here it is:

If a company won't be bothered to get such a simple thing right and tell the truth, how could they be trusted to do it for a more serious issue?

Yes, we take back 15% of our ONE-TIME plan if the client wants to cancel, but only because we have to pay almost 10% of the total sum to our credit card processor.
I made no remark about the fee being unjustified, only the inaccuracy of the refund statement and a meagre attempt to mislead.

I really don't see the point in having this discussion. If a client asks us about something (ie. 30-day money back policy), we'll tell him. All they have to do is ask.

Why should someone looking for a host have to ask what should be clearly stated on any site? What makes asking necessary is all the "marketing" so many use (where marketing is a euphemism for lies).

Fine, maybe we do have a couple of flwas, but so does every single business in the world. No one is perfect and if I might add, we provide a pretty good services for our clients - isn't that all that matters?.
Lies and deceit are not flaws, they are serious defects.


If you want to continue this, fine, but I think it'd be better if we discussed this in private. Contact me by eMail, ICQ, AIM or LiveHelper.


I don't, though this is the forum to do it in. My remarks are not especially directed to your company alone, but to any and all that use deceptive terms.

We hae had some that have used even the U word and asked for help in clearly expressing their intent without deception. They received that assistance and some of them are regular, and valuable, contributing members to the discussions here.

You're the first that I recall that had the temerity to defend deception and lies.

Like Judge Judy says, and a title to one of her books, "Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining."

Originally posted by Chicken
Although I agree that 'included' might be a better choice of wording, I don't see it as a big deal either. Shopping carts, mysql... these are some things that some hosts charge extra for. With this account they are included at no cost, in other words, free, no charge, zip.


Yes... I agree.. I don't see what the big deal Duster is trying to pull? Many hosts here (I mean, really big hosts who frequents this board a lot!) offer unlimited POP3 account, unlimited email forwarding, etc for free... Probably Duster wants to start critisizing all the hosts here? I can give the list if you want, start a new thread, and Duster can start cirtisizing all of the big hosts here... shall we Duster?

cheers,
:beer:

dektong,

Do you know why donkeys don't go to college?



Because nobody likes a smart ass!

My issue is with deceptive terms and lies, and the defense of lying under the guise of "it's just marketing".

Of course, since you feel lying about unlimited bandwidth or transfer is justified since everyone else does it (in other markets), I wouldn't expect you to understand or agree. Lying is perfectly acceptable to you.

It's not to me.

I'm not on a crusade to change every host. However, if they come here and try to defend their practices rather than amend their wording, I will be just as critical of their wording.

If, instead, they have an honest intent and want to state their policies clearly and without deception, I'll be as helpful as I can to help them achieve that goal.



[Edited by Duster on 02-26-2001 at 10:22 PM]

Originally posted by dektong
Many hosts here (I mean, really big hosts who frequents this board a lot!) offer unlimited POP3 account, unlimited email forwarding, etc for free...

Well, I think in a perfect hosting world, *that* un... unlim... (I can't even say it), *that* word should never be used. I don't really think it has a place in hosting, and hosts have come here saying that unlim... is a lie and that any host who states it is lying, yet they have it for certain things (like POP accounts).

If a host states unlimited bandwidth, transfer, or disk space, I will tell members to look elsewhere. If they have unlimited POPs, well, honestly I don't like it, but am not going to get into it for something like that. Guess you have to pick your battles, heh.

There are a few things that people don't always understand. One, that you cannot run a free POP email service or a free subdomain host off a $5/mo shared account. In the end it just doesn't work.

Two, is that there is a difference between stating unrealistic amounts (such as unlimited anything really), and overselling services, such as transfer and disk space.

Exactly. I had meant to say this in my earlier post and forgot. It helps to use reason and understand things in context.

When a host says "unlimited POP3 accounts" and similar features, for practical purposes, it means that the customer can have as many as they want. It's somewhat similar to an ISP using the term "unlimited hours" in describing dial up access time, when the real limit is half the hours in a month.

For things like POP3 accounts, there are just so many any customer will want to use. There is a practical limit of their own determination that will be reached long before any technical limitations. It just gets cumbersome for them to have too many accounts.

With transfer, unlimited has a very different contextual meaning, even though the word literally means the same as when used with POP3 accounts. We know it to be a lie in this usage.

Most of us can tell the difference.

Originally posted by Duster
dektong,
Of course, since you feel lying about unlimited bandwidth or transfer is justified since everyone else does it (in other markets), I wouldn't expect you to understand or agree. Lying is perfectly acceptable to you.


I have never said that! Find it, Duster! I do really challenge you this time! When did I say lying for marketing is okay? When did I say it is justified? All I was wondering was whether it is actually realistic in the specific case of Papua New Guinea business (and from Daniel's answer, I know that it's not!)! If you can't find it, you better apologize! I clearly said, in fact, I would not used that word! I am thinkin about starting a web host company, and I won't use that word! Read carefully before you try to be your own smart ass donkey! Gee!

cheers,
:beer:

[Edited by dektong on 02-27-2001 at 03:39 AM]

Originally posted by Duster
With transfer, unlimited has a very different contextual meaning ...

BTW, from the original post, I don't see the host under fire is offering unlimited transfer? I can see that he is limiting his bandwith/trasnfer or have I missed any?

cheers,
:beer:

I remember looking for domain registration and seeing:

"FREE domain registration for only $5.95!"

I was scratching my head over that one for a while. That was back in the days of NS dominance.

Originally posted by dektong
Originally posted by Duster
With transfer, unlimited has a very different contextual meaning ...

BTW, from the original post, I don't see the host under fire is offering unlimited transfer? I can see that he is limiting his bandwith/trasnfer or have I missed any?

cheers,
:beer:
No, his site is being criticized for other lies, and he is for defending them. That's what you have missed. You seem either intent on redirecting the focus of criticism or just aren't paying attention.

Maybe you should have some coffee instead of beer. ;)

Originally posted by Lawrence
I remember looking for domain registration and seeing:

"FREE domain registration for only $5.95!"

I was scratching my head over that one for a while. That was back in the days of NS dominance.


Well that's confusing, but I do recall companies stating free domain registration and then *'ing it with, "NetSol will bill you $70 blah blah blah", which I'm sure confused a good amount of people.

Chicken,

Yes I remember that myself. A few people did actually charge a fee to register a domain for people ($10-30), so others decided to do it for 'free', but mention Net Sol charged $70 for two years regardless. I presume these were resellers themselves so got a cut (thereby not really being free at all) Being the only game in town at the time I suppose it was their only tactic.

These days you can just offer it at a realistic market value and say it will cost you X amount to register through whichever host or registrar it is. Oddly though some OpenSRS resellers still seem to whack people for $35 a year or so... nice profit margin that :)

Greg Moore

I think when they say "free domain name", they mean, they wont be charged anything extra other then the NetSol costing. You know, like some hosts charge 150$/2yrs for domain reg.

Originally posted by Duster
ALL THIS INCLUDED
- CGI-Bin
- FTP Access
- POP3 Accounts
- Shopping Cart
- AutoResponders
- Telnet/SSH Access
- PERL, PHP, SSI, mySQL
[/B]

And if your clients ask you: "Do all these features included for free?", how would you answer them?

cheers,
:beer:

Originally posted by Duster
Maybe you should have some coffee instead of beer. ;) [/B]

Putting smilies aside, have you found any statement where I said/claimed lying about unlimited bandwith/transfer can be justified for marketing reasons? You may want to delete that part of the post or you may start apologizing, if you are a real humble man.

cheers,
:beer:

If all that was included in a standard account I offered, I wouldn't say it was free. I might say it was all included in the standard account (and others), that there were no additional charges on my end, and otherwise answer their question without deception or misusing terms.

Since I make it clear on my web site, the question does not come up.

Here's how I list the description of most of the features on my standard account. Emphasis added here only

Here's the poop:

you get the disk space you need - we allocate 5 mb initially (unless otherwise stipulated), let us know if you need more. disk space is one of the cheapest things any host can offer.
data transfer (bandwidth) of 5 gigabytes monthly based on sustained peak bandwidth. Any excess amount billed at $3 per gigabyte (or portion of a gigabyte).
set-up & configuration by us at no charge
no charge for Domain Name Registration or transfer. You pay only registrar fees.**Check Domain Name
if you are transferring an existing domain name, most registrars do not charge you any fees. We will gladly complete the form on your behalf (if we can). You just reply to Network Solutions or the other registrar when you get it by e-mail and the transfer will be completed.
free setup of an e-mail name on one of the free e-mail services (just for your domain registration) to prevent you from being bombarded with spam (junk-e-mail). Internic registrations are a primary source of names for spammers (along with Usenet postings).
FTP setup and directory (for transferring files to your account - which we will gladly do at no charge).
e-mail addresses (aliasing) and forwarding, POP3 accounts, (anynames@yourdomain), as many as you need
auto responders
server access logs and statistics
account control panel that allows you to add e-mail addresses, check your disk space, and many other functions
shopping cart program (for online credit card ordering)* license fee may be required
electronic (e-commerce) support for online credit card processing at low rates (and other things)


Note that the only time I use the word "free" is in reference to free e-mail elsewhere where the use of the word is entirely accurate.

I havent read the entire thread, but to my understanding, nothing in this world is ever free then right? There inst anything like free email? or webspace? nothing? Since, someone is always gaining something from the offered service correct?

Yes! not even one-free email account. If Duster can offer a free email services (of course, with no ads), then sure all of us would like to use your service (and start filling up your HD space). Duster can offer free email because he requires a client to buy his hosting service. Why not use the word "included" (see! 8 characters instead of 4!). Even if you use the word "included", how if your clients ask you: "is this feature included for free?". What would you answer them?

cheers,
:beer:

dektong,

It's obvious your limited understanding of English is at the root of some of your misunderstandings. The free e-mail account I make mention of is not on my server, nor is it one where they are obligated to receive ads. It is also a suggestion. Some customers make use of it, some don't. They can also open as many free accounts as they want totally independent of me doing it for them. I even have a list of some of them, and a link to a site that has over 400 listed.

For instance, I use a Bigfoot address for my e-mail address here, other forums, and on ebay. I change it as needed (it has been harvested from ebay a few times. I know that domain registrations are harvested, so I do not use a valid address there and that is why I suggest others use a free e-mail service (or use an invalid address).

Since there is no charge for the e-mail account, and it is unrelated to paying for a hosting account with me, there is no obligation to receive advertising offers, and no charge by me to set it up, the word free is accurate by the strictest definition.

Incidentally, if your limited knowledge of English caused a misunderstanding over your use of the term unlimited transfer, then it is regretable. You did seem to be seeking justification for the term, whether that is clear to you or not.

You might want to remove that burr from under your saddle. I've already answered your question about "is this included for free".

Greg,

There are a lot of things that are genuinely free, just not as many as many people would have us believe.

[Edited by Duster on 02-27-2001 at 02:59 PM]

Originally posted by Duster
You did seem to be seeking justification for the term, whether that is clear to you or not.
[Edited by Duster on 02-27-2001 at 02:59 PM] [/B]

I don't see why you have to keep pointing this false information! Since when did I find justification on using the term unlimited transfer? Show it to me where I even consider using that term, Duster? Why haven't you shown anything to support your false information regarding me? Just quote it from any of my post where I am looking for any justification for the use of that term! As I said, when I open my own hosting company, I will notused this unlimited tranfer/bandwith or anyting! What part of this don't you understand? Stop telling false information! If you can, back it up! My third challenge for you! Once and for all! Find where I said lying about unlimited transfer/bandwith is justifiable for marketing reasons! Haven't you found any?

cheers,
:beer:

I said you gave the impression that you were seeking justification for the term, not that you stated it overtly. I'm glad you decided not to follow other providers who use the term falsely. However, neither did you state that either.

Duster,

Believe me, my comment on domain names had no relevance to the general flow of this thread at all. Call it a tangent if you will :) Chicken was involved, so I blame him *lol* We all know those 'chickeny' tangents.

Greg Moore

Originally posted by Duster
I said you gave the impression that you were seeking justification for the term....


You just added that word 'seem/gave the impression' later since you can't backed up your own bad-mouth about me! Very sad! OK... how about this?
Originally posted by Duster

Of course, since you feel lying about unlimited bandwidth or transfer is justified since everyone else does it (in other markets), I wouldn't expect you to understand or agree. Lying is perfectly acceptable to you


First you tell people that I feel lying about it is justified! Second you tell people that lying is perfectly acceptable to me! Completely false! So far, I have not lied! So far I have no intention to lie! And you suddenly came with a gun telling bad things about me! Why? Have you known me that much? You are still being stubborn, you just can't ask for apology publicly, can you? Are you too pathetic to ask for an apology and take your word back?

However, neither did you state that either.


I might have not said it explicitly, but that is not the ground for you to justify your false statement against me! I clearly stated that the word "unlimited" is a non-sense, in every cases! Here is the quote of what I said regading this, in other thread, and that's how I will run my business one day!

Originally posted by dektong
Anyway... the word unlimited is not a reality, not in unlimited bandwith, not in unlimited data transfer, not in unlimited pop3 mail, not in unlimited email forwarding, not in unlimited internet access, not in everything...


Do you have anyhing worthier to say than just defending your self, Duster?

cheers,
-> no beer this time.

[Edited by dektong on 02-27-2001 at 04:22 PM]

dektong,

This is the last I will say on the subject. Did you also not understand the meaning of "Incidentally, if your limited knowledge of English caused a misunderstanding over your use of the term unlimited transfer, then it is regretable."?

That's as much of an apology as you're going to get. You gave the impression you were defending the practice of lying about unlimited transfer (in the context of your other remarks and competition), never said you were going to be different, and my remarks were directed towards that impression.

They were also made after you became antagonistic and sarcastic.

If you want people to understand your intent, you need to state it clearly. You failed to do so. I have already said I am glad you are not planning on doing as others in your area are doing and lying about unlimited transfer. Good for you!

I shall say no more on this matter. I suggest you do the same.

Duster, I (as do some others) don't think my english is the real problem here, but your direct attach on me. But, let's forget about this. Unlike you, I have no reputation yet to loss.

cheers,
:beer:

[Edited by dektong on 02-27-2001 at 06:47 PM]

Originally posted by akashik
Chicken was involved, so I blame him *lol* We all know those 'chickeny' tangents.

Greg Moore

Ohhhhh suuuuuure, blame the chicken! I think we need a chicken smilie? Example:

<insert future chicken smilie here> :smash: or
:uzi:<insert future chicken smilie here>

Really, I was the tangent master until etLux and SpiderJohn came along with their knives and goats. Thank goodness *that* died out, since if I read another tangent involving either of those two things I'm going to :sickface:

Anyway, I'm not really here -just popping in for a moment or two when I have time until things settle down here (few more days).

Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to post this (let me know because I'm a newbie to this forum).

Anyway, I'm looking for a host that offers a free lunch. Any suggestions, thanks.

Originally posted by freakysid
Hi, I don't know if this is the right place to post this (let me know because I'm a newbie to this forum).

Anyway, I'm looking for a host that offers a free lunch. Any suggestions, thanks.

freakysid,

Sure! We do a free*'^ lunch. Just drop by anytime.

shifty-guy hosting
-service with a wink, smile, and slap on the ass

* free lunch does not include rental of knife, fork, and spoon. In addition, we do not accept liability for the performance of the above mentioned free lunch, or it's performance regarding taste, or stomach filling capacity during peak hours. There is a 20 minute limit for the consumption of above mentioned free lunch and customer accepts that minutes in excess of the stated 20 minutes will incur a $50 an hour 'waiting at your table' fee.

' free lunch by it's nature is an untidy practise, so therefore is automatically appended with a 'clean up' fee of $100. Extra fees may be incured in certain cases where peas have rolled onto the floor, or certain items such as sauce have stained out nice clean, white table cloth These fees are to be decided on a 'case by case' situation.

^ free lunch is only available in conjunction with other feeding plans. To be accepted you must agree to eat regularly at our usual rates, once a day for a full year (either using our greasy bacon breakfast, or full 'all you can eat'** dinner plans). Prices for these plans are available from the shifty looking guy with the gold chains down that alleyway over there.

** all you can eat plans have a bunch of terms too, but they are secret and will only show up on your credit card, three days before we declare backruptcy and disappear forever.

Chicken,

Glad I wasn't the only one getting tired of goats and knives. :)

Greg Moore

Incidentally, Consumers Union (publisher of Consumer Reports) has often taken issue with the misuse of the term "free" and deceptive practices, as well as impractical ones.

Impractical includes guarantees where it costs nearly as much or more to make use of it than the purchase price of what you bought. For instance, you buy a 25 cent candy bar and the wrapper says "if not satisfied, send remainder to X Company for replacement".

Duh. The postage alone will cost more than a new candy bar.

The same principle is used with more expensive items. I mentioned some sunglasses earlier in this discussion. Instead of just advertising them as inexpensive sunglasses (which they are), the company makes them out to be really high quality (as in expensive) sunglasses that you get for "free" as a marketing test (translation - a test of how many they can sell by this marketing lie) for just $7.95 shipping and handling (it might be a dollar or two more - I forget).

They offer a "free" lifetime replacement warranty. It is completely useless.

When I lost a bridgepiece to one pair I bought (because they were cheap, not because of any worthless warrantees of marketing gimmicks), I read the warranty. I would have to return the pair to them (about $3.20 in postage) and include another $7.95 shipping and handling to get another pair with a new bridgepiece. The idea of spending $11.15 for a $7.95 pair of sunglasses (including the shipping) is ridiculous. So is their warranty.

It would be far better to just buy another pair (or get another "free" pair and pay for the S&H of $7.95)

Marketing lies.

Originally posted by echoweb
You don't like us? Then don't use us. The thing that really pisses me off is that you start sending us "threatening" (for the lack of better word) eMails and think that we don't know who it is.
I suspect you mean me since I have been most critical of the wording of certain things on your site. If so, you are are gravely mistaken. I have not sent any e-mails to your company and I cannot fathom why anyone would send any threatening ones (unless it's one of your customers).

If you have a problem with us, talk to us instead of creating yet another flame post. To be honest, we did want to change our wording after this post started, but now I'm not so sure anymore because of what it grew into. Even if we do change our text, you'll find some other flaw to critisize. What's the point then?
I should think a continual effort to improve would be reason enough. However, it seems you have the attitude of a petulant child, so improving hardly seems to matter to you. I will point out that I casually mentioned the misuse of the term "free" after someone pointed it out. We didn't know which company was involved until you announced yourself.

A smart person might have just kept quiet and changed the wording. Instead, you told us who you are and said you weren't deceiving anyone and defended the practice of lying under the guise of marketing. I pointed out how some of your terms are misleading.

If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen We have had hosts (who are regulars here) who have an earnest desire not to mislead and changed the wording on their sites based on what they learned here. They took some criticism of their wording, including from me. The difference is that they didn't try to defend it, just ask how better to express what they meant.

What we write on our site HAS NO EFFECT WHATSOEVER on the quality of service we provide!

Maybe not, Boris, but you have again missed the point. Someone new, looking at your site and considering your company, might pass solely because of your deceptive wording. They may never get to know your level of service because of what you say about your company by the way you say it.

It seems you are determined to continue saying it the same way. Suit yourself, It makes no difference whatsoever to me.