I am wanting to commence a thread about overselling because this seems to be one of the industries great grey areas.

I am going to put a definition of either side of the argument and would invite hosts to comment. Not saying I'm wrong or right, I'm just putting down my own observations from 100% true experience.

Overselling Allowed:

Allows the reseller to use all the space and traffic they have paid for.
Allocates sold space and traffic allowances to the reseller therefore space and traffic is ready and allocated on the server for the reseller so they can use the space and traffic they have paid for.
Prevents the actual host from adding more reseller accounts than the space on a server can handle.
More reliable and consideraly faster hosting.
A more profitable solution for the reseller.


Overselling NOT Allowed:

Bases space and traffic usage on the resellers made up space and traffic allowances invented in his/her hosting plans.
Virtually guarantees resellers will never get to use the space and traffic they have paid for.
The host can load many more reseller accounts onto a server because the space sold to other resellers is not likely to be used.
Allows hosts to overload the server and possible speed issues.


HostGator is one that does not allow overselling and I've already had a bad experience with them after their reseller account shut me out when I was adding my domains, even BEFORE I had uploaded a single file. Hosts like http://resellerzoom.com and http://innohosting.com/ allow overselling and from what I see are excellent hosts.

In Australia there is http://cpanelreseller.com.au that's actually promoting REAL RESOURCES - Overselling Friendly, so they have come out in a very public way about the issue.

The facts are the space and monthly traffic allowances invented by a reseller in his/her hosting plans as ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the space and traffic they have paid to use. If a host can argue otherwise then I'll be astounded.

My personal opinion is that at the end of the day, whether a host allows or does not allow overselling does not automatically determine whether they are good or bad. However, the difference for the reseller can be huge, in that with one you can expand and grow your business and enjoy fast hosting yet with the other you could be shut out just because of the plans you invented or at the best run the risk of experiencing overloading issues.

Potential resellers need to look carefully at this. I was caught out once when going with HostGator. Never again.

Cheers

Right on. I would agree with most of what you said. Its refreshing when someone shows a clear understanding and explanation of overselling as it relates to resellers.

Now, lets hear what the hair-splitters have to say... :)

I don't have a problem with the general concept but some of your descriptions are inaccurate.


Overselling Allowed:

Prevents the actual host from adding more reseller accounts than the space on a server can handle.

No, it doesn't (unfortunately)

More reliable and consideraly faster hosting.

In view of the above, not necessarily.

Overselling NOT Allowed:

Allows hosts to overload the server and possible speed issues.

All other things being equal I'd expect the host to be offering more space for the same price in this case, so the host is likely to be overselling more, but in terms of load it should balance out since the resellers are overselling less.

Whether the reseller is allowed to oversell or not should be reflected in the price / limits of the plan. Either way what matters is the host's ability / willingness to manage the load on their servers, and to a large extent this will depend on the price point.

What in the blue moons are you talking about.... :eek:

You should read about OVERSELLING ALLOWED and NON OVERSELLING ALLOWED more, but will quote a few of the things you need to catchup on...

Overselling Allowed:
Allows the reseller to use all the space and traffic they have paid for.


This has nothing to do with having overselling on or off.

More reliable and consideraly faster hosting.
Not true at all, the biggest problem here is the client buying the reseller plan with OVERSELLING Allowed can place hundreds of small accounts causing more harm then 2 / 3 normal sites...

Remember OVERSELLING Allowed is a clients feature not a server admin feature... the Admins / Owners of the gear can still oversell the server.

JumBuck more or less got it right..But to add..

Overselling really depends on the context that it is being done in.

Resellers overselling is less risky than the owners of the server overselling. This is simply because the reseller can upgrade to a higher plan, whereas the main host may have already maxed out the server and has nothing to upgrade to.

In the reseller context, overselling is fine. It allows the reseller to use his/her allocated resources more easily. It provides an easier platform to generate more sales and even become more profitable.

As for the main host, I can only say how we do it. We fill the server to a certain capacity which is way below what the server can handle. This allows room for growth and expansion. We leave that server and take it out of rotation. It is simply not worth the risk of using the unused capacity to put more accounts on. Get another server and follow the same routine. Monitor trends and growth to ensure the server is capable - That's it.

If the main host has to oversell to make a profit, then that host is treading in dangerous waters.

Either way, if you model it correctly - overselling is a great feature to provide to your resellers. Whether a host decides to do that or not does not dictate if they are a good or bad host, they simply have different beliefs.

Jumbuck, all things being equal, you are right about the general concept. There are dozens of variables with every overselling situation, so of course there is lots of room to split hairs.

Foobic, I was going to comment on the "Prevents the actual host from adding more reseller accounts than the space on a server can handle" comment as well, but decided not to because I think the OP is trying to get a comparative, rather than an exact, understanding of how overselling works.

In general, hosts that enable their resellers to oversell have two choices: allow fewer resellers per server, or risk servers becoming overloaded. In theory, a GOOD host would not want their servers to become overloaded, and thus would put fewer resellers per server, thus reducing (again, as a general rule) the number of sites per server to what it would be if resellers were NOT allowed to oversell.

What in the blue moons are you talking about.... :eek:

This has nothing to do with having overselling on or off.

It has EVERYTHING to do with overselling. If a host does not allow overselling then there is little likelihood resellers will get to use the space and traffic they have paid for.

I purchased a reseller plan from HostGator, I invented my hosting plans and started to add my domains. It SHUT ME OUT saying I have reached my maximum limit. HOWEVER, the fact is I had not even started to upload anything.

I had not used any space at all, yet I had paid for it!! HostGator was telling me I had reached my limit. HostGator does not allow overselling and I wasn't able to use the space I had paid for so don't come in here and make ridiculous comments like that. It has EVEYTHING to do with it. If they allowed overselling I would have been fine.

I switched to another host that had maximum domain limits but allowed overselling and I'm been making money ever since.

Not true at all, the biggest problem here is the client buying the reseller plan with OVERSELLING Allowed can place hundreds of small accounts causing more harm then 2 / 3 normal sites...

Again, with respect, you are totally incorrect. If a host allows you to host up to a certain number of accounts then you won't be adding "hundreds" at all and not harming anything.

If you are trying to suggest that if by a host allowing their reseller to use the space and bandwidth they have paid for is going to "bring down" your servers then you need to have a serious look at how many reseller accounts you have on your servers.

Every reseller should be able to use ALL the space and traffic they have paid for and your servers should glide through it. If they don't then you've added too many reseller accounts on your server, reduce the number of reseller accounts you have on a given server and you should be fine.

Remember OVERSELLING Allowed is a clients feature not a server admin feature... the Admins / Owners of the gear can still oversell the server.

And my bet is with overselling NOT allowed this is exactly what most of them do because they are almost assured their resellers will not be able to utilise the full space or traffic they have paid for.

Cheers

Jumbuck not to get you confused, but I think you need to learn how cpanel works with and without overselling allowed...

Again this has nothing to due with overselling allowed or not allowed...

If a host like hostgator says no they don't allow overselling and you say buy a plan say with 5 gigs of space and make 5 account using 1 gig each and then run out of space that means you don't know what non overselling enable means...

It means you can make as many accounts as you like without using more then the total amount of space sold to you ( not used )... even if you don't uses it as it goes by package size, not space used.

Jumbuck not to get you confused, but I think you need to learn how cpanel works with and without overselling allowed...

Again this has nothing to due with overselling allowed or not allowed...

If a host like hostgator says no they don't allow overselling and you say buy a plan say with 5 gigs of space and make 5 account using 1 gig each and then run out of space that means you don't know what non overselling enable means...

It means you can make as many accounts as you like without using more then the total amount of space sold to you ( not used )... even if you don't uses it as it goes by package size, not space used.

Yes I agree. And lets say I've created those 5 x 1 GIG accounts yet have not uploaded anything. Two things are true ...

1. I have not used one single byte of the paid space I have PAID to use yet it will report is as FULL.
2. I will be prevented from adding any more accounts even though I have have not used one single byte of the 5 GIG space I have purchased.

The indisputable fact is, the space and monthly traffic allowances a reseller invents with their hosting plans has NO bearing at all on the space and monthly traffic allowance a reseller has paid to use in the first place.

From a strict legal stand point a retailer is legally obliged by law to provide a consumer with what they pay for. Can you imagine your broadband supplier cutting you off the moment you connect up to them because your hardware is capable of using more bandwidth than they've sold you. No. It would not happen because its illegal.

If I had chosen to take HostGator to court when they shut me out without me uploading a single file, I'm sure the first question asked by the judge would be, "Has the reseller used the space he has paid for?" To which HostGator would have to reply "No". Case closed in my favour.

The point is I can not see any real defence for not allowing overselling. How can a host possibly justify not providing a reseller with the space and traffic they have paid to use.

Yet, for some reason hosts can use the term "Overselling" as a way to justify exactly that - limiting a reseller based on imaginary unused space and traffic invented in a reseller's hosting plans instead of on what a reseller has actually paid to really use.

If a host does not allow overselling they should make it clear they are charging money for space and traffic invented by a reseller in his/her hosting plans only that may actually never get to be used at all.

I think its more a matter of ethics - resellers should not have to pay for stuff they won't be allowed to use.

Cheers

Conversely a host could argue that once space is allocated to an account the account holder could use all of it at any time, and on this basis the reseller shouldn't be allowed to sell that same space to someone else.

IMO there's no right answer here nor any lack of ethics - just accounts based on two different accounting methods. It's up to the buyer to understand what he's buying and decide which is best for him.

Conversely a host could argue that once space is allocated to an account the account holder could use all of it at any time, and on this basis the reseller shouldn't be allowed to sell that same space to someone else.

Hello foobic,

I hope you don't mind but even that argument doesn't wash. A host would naturally hope their reseller's hosting accounts WILL need to use more than the reseller accounts space and bandwidth limit, that way they can upgrade them to the next larger reseller account. That's what its all about. Its how ethical hosts that do the right thing by their resellers grow themselves.

To your other point - a reseller should be able to use all of the space and traffic they have paid for at any time. I mean they have paid for it for goodness sake!!! They have a right to use it!!! Please don't try and suggest otherwise.

Cheers

I think you got your things mixed up, its vice versa. well on some of them.
I dont see a problem with allowing resellers to oversell as long as they dont put 1000 accounts on a $15 reseller

But yeah, nice topic, overselling as never been discussed here at wht lol

I think you got your things mixed up, its vice versa. well on some of them.
I dont see a problem with allowing resellers to oversell as long as they dont put 1000 accounts on a $15 reseller

But yeah, nice topic, overselling as never been discussed here at wht lol

Totally agree. All the hosts I know that allow overselling cap the number of hosting accounts allowed on their reseller plans. This makes perfect sense to me. It show me they are serious about the quality of their resources.

Yes, and I think this issue, in particular the highly questionable practice of not allowing consumers use what they pay for, is something that needs to be brought out into the open to improve public awareness.

Hosts that do the right thing by their resellers like resellerzoom, innohost and others need to be given a pat on the back for making the internet a better place for us resellers. And I am not connected to either of them in anyway.

Conversely, hosts that do take money for something then do not allow their customers to use what they pay for (trying to justify it by saying "we don't allow overselling") perhaps also need to be exposed.

Either way, if you are a potential reseller looking for a good quality host you now have good cause to look very carefully at what is on offer.

Cheers

You can't compare between overselling enabled and overselling not enabled.
When a host offer a reseller package, they must take into account the resources allocated suitable with overselling option.
If you choose overselling enabled, you will most likely get limit on number of accounts and/or lower cpu usage
For example, IH offer starter package with 5GB space, 100GB bandwidth, 25 accounts for $16.95/m
HG offer starter package with 12GB space, 125GB bandwidth, unlimited domains for $24.95 (some hosts offer better than that)
If i have 50 websites for adsense, i will definitely go with HG
It does not really mean "more reliable", "faster hosting", or whatever else.
A host can still oversell their servers while offer reseller package with overselling enabled.
Isn't getting worse in this situation?

well you definitely need limits on the number accounts made no matter if you allow overselling or not.
I sold a reseller once, should have known better when I seen the domain, was some guy with link farms. Within 2 days he had 400 domains on the server, all link farms using those link generator scripts (blackhat seo).
I think for the most part clients wont take advantage but you have the few that do, regardless no one forces anyone to take a package. Read over everything and if it dont look like its what you need dont buy it just to complain later.

Jumbuck,
Ok, Lets give a few examples here...

You have a 5GB reseller plan. You create one plan, that allows 1GB of disk space. You sell that plan to 6 customers..
What happens when all 6 customers try to use the full 1GB of space you have given them?

Another question.. You say you have created plans, and signed up for them. But you were shut down when you tried to sign up for an additional plan that assigned more space than your account allows. Why did you not make the plans smaller... To equal the amount of space actually used on each domain. Then you would still be able to add more domains.

There are two business models at use here. Both are valid and both work well.

Overselling is very easy to abuse though. Thats what most people object to.

There are two different kinds of resellers.

1) Designers who have no need to offer huge plans, and so can create realistic package limits of 200M, 100M, or even less. They can change quotas for individual accounts, etc. For these types of resellers, overselling not enabled is just fine.

2) People who want to get into hosting, and who are at a competitive disadvantage if they can not offer plans much bigger than they are allotted with their reseller package.

Back when cPanel began offering the overselling allowed/ not allowed feature, it was easy for new hosts to compete because overselling to end users was not as commonplace then. Now, things have obviously changed, and resellers who are trying to become hosts really only have two choices.

1) They can go with a host that allows them to oversell
2) They can get their own VPS / Dedicated server to start out.

Conversely a host could argue that once space is allocated to an account the account holder could use all of it at any time, and on this basis the reseller shouldn't be allowed to sell that same space to someone else.

I agree with this. You can think of this like a hotel - you buy a room and may not even use it for a few days as you may be out, therefore I would not be happy to find someone residing in mine upon my return!

I firmly believe that data not even be used should still be available to the user- it's what they paid for and should be in the host's pricing structure / business model.

Best wishes

RavenServers

Jumbuck,
Ok, Lets give a few examples here...

You have a 5GB reseller plan. You create one plan, that allows 1GB of disk space. You sell that plan to 6 customers..
What happens when all 6 customers try to use the full 1GB of space you have given them?

I upgrade to a higher reseller plan that allows more space and bandwidth. Its very simple and its a hosts dream. Its how the hosting industry grows.

The fact is how much space I invent in my hosting plans has no bearing on what I have paid to actually use. It has no bearing on what HostGator has to pay to provide me, it has no bearing on anything. What counts is the actual space and traffic I actually use because this is the only time when HostGator starts to use their resources.

Are you suggesting you are happy to pay a host to simply invent hosting plans?? For me I pay a host to use space and monthly traffic.

Another question.. You say you have created plans, and signed up for them. But you were shut down when you tried to sign up for an additional plan that assigned more space than your account allows. Why did you not make the plans smaller... To equal the amount of space actually used on each domain. Then you would still be able to add more domains.
Totally impracticable and unworkable. If I sell a plan offering 1 GIG space then the client needs to see this in their cPanel.

Don't forget, when I was shut out by HostGator I had not even uploaded on single file. I was shut out during adding my domains to my reseller account - they said all the space I had paid them to use was already used. This was an ABSOLUTE TOTAL LIE. I had not used any space or traffic. I had not even uploaded one single file for goodness sake.

Think about this, HostGator had taken my money for a reseller plan offering 5 GB space and whatever monthly bandwidth. I had not uploaded one single file yet it was full - tell me how much space on HostGator's hard drive was I occupying??? Practically none - certainly NOT the 5 GB I paid for!!! Tell me how much expensive traffic was I using ?? Practically none. Yet they took my money and told me I had reached my limit.

I'm sorry, but I find the whole concept of not allowing overselling i.e. the HostGator model of not allowing their customers to use the space and traffic they pay for as totally appalling. If pushed my bet is it could possibly even be deemed illegal. Harsh words but to try and justify not allowing customers to use what they pay for because of the space invented by the reseller in his/her hosting plans is a con that's gone on long enough. What's invented in hosting plans has nothing to do with anything, its imaginery and non existant until its actually used.

Would you be happy with your bradband ISP if they cut you off the moment you connected up to their service because your computer could "possibly" use more bandwidth than your plan allows???? They won't do this because its illegal. Only when you actually use up all of what you've paid then to use can they legally take action. Think about that for a moment.

Cheers

For example, IH offer starter package with 5GB space, 100GB bandwidth, 25 accounts for $16.95/m
HG offer starter package with 12GB space, 125GB bandwidth, unlimited domains for $24.95 (some hosts offer better than that)
If i have 50 websites for adsense, i will definitely go with HG
It does not really mean "more reliable", "faster hosting", or whatever else.

Not really a fair comparison. Comparing plans just because they are both called starter and with a $7 price difference is not a fair comparison.
Comparing plans at the same/similar price point is surely a more valid comparison?

Comparing on similar pricing means in your example
IH offer Professional package with 15GB space, 250GB bandwidth, unlimited accounts for $26.95/m (overselling allowed)
HG offer starter package with 12GB space, 125GB bandwidth, unlimited domains for $24.95 (overselling not allowed)

So I know which one I would choose now if I was looking for a reseller plan :)

Jumbuck, Hostgator have every right to not allow overselling on their reseller packages, if it is the business model which they prefer to use.
However having looked at their web site I cannot see any mention that they allow or don't allow overselling.

IMHO to avoid confusion and/or misrepresentation of their services Hostgator and any other hosts should clearly state that they don't allow overselling just the same as we and other hosts should clearly state that we do allow overselling.

Customers shouldn't have to go searching through FAQ's etc just to find out if the host they are considering has a certain feature, especially one as important to a resellers business as allowing overselling.

just my 2c :)

Well if you investigate further, how many resellers using professional package can be hosted on a server with 2000GB data transfer that "allows room for growth and expansion"?

I'm wondering who will be more overselling to make profit. :stickout:

The thread title is a tad misleading. You're not discussing overselling, you're discussing whether a button is checked in one control panel system to allow disk space and transfer traffic to be based on allocation method or usage method. I can see where the confusion comes in, cPanel rather moronically calls the option "enable overselling"


All you've really done here is explain what the WHM manual explains. It doesn't give much of an insight in to overselling.

As for the original quote:

The facts are the space and monthly traffic allowances invented by a reseller in his/her hosting plans as ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the space and traffic they have paid to use. If a host can argue otherwise then I'll be astounded.
Actually, it has everything to do with it. Keep in mind that it is not the reseller hosting providers fault if you mis-manage your assignments. They give you the space and transfer to play with, then it is up to you to do with it as you want. Sure, you'll never use every bit of the assignment, but you can go right to the brink.

Usage VS allocation billing is a hot-topic on a few different business forums for many services around web hosting. I see the positives and negatives of both. If a provider uses cPanel I would honestly encourage them to use allocation method.

The "overselling" function of cPanel is there to calculate what possible usage you could have, based off of your per-account assignments, and give your total for assigned service functions. To be clear: No provider "locks you out". It is not a function of cPanel. If you get the message that all allocations have been used it merely means you have assigned all the space and transfer. It is not difficult to modify the packages and accounts within your WHM.


Would you be happy with your bradband ISP if they cut you off the moment you connected up to their service because your computer could "possibly" use more bandwidth than your plan allows???? They won't do this because its illegal. Only when you actually use up all of what you've paid then to use can they legally take action. Think about that for a moment.
That is not a comparable scenario. Unless you're reselling your ISP's assignments, you can't compare the two because one (the ISP example) is missing a very important tier: reselling.



Simon

REPUBLICAN/DEMOCRAT
PRO-LIFE/PRO-CHOICE
APPLE/WINDOWS (PC)
FORD/CHEVY
OVERSELLING / NOT OVERSELLING

It's a debate that will never be solved. Overselling is one of those topics that send brothers to war in this industry with their views they stand so strong on. I think it's time we all come to agree on a few things and let the other be of own opinion.

Example - shopping at Amazon. You can purchase an item only to find it has been back ordered. Are they selling a product they don't have or can't meet? NO. The same applies to the hosting industry. If you have the resources and hardware to back your plans, then it is not true overselling and this is where the term is getting confused by others and miss used.

Overselling should only be defined by offering more than you can handle / provide without killing your server's performance level.

I upgrade to a higher reseller plan that allows more space and bandwidth. Its very simple and its a hosts dream. Its how the hosting industry grows.

This is ONE way in which the industry grows. Certainly not even close to the only way.



The fact is how much space I invent in my hosting plans has no bearing on what I have paid to actually use. It has no bearing on what HostGator has to pay to provide me, it has no bearing on anything. What counts is the actual space and traffic I actually use because this is the only time when HostGator starts to use their resources.

This is not always true. It is true based on YOUR BUSINESS MODEL. This is your model, Not HostGators. It is certainly a legitimate model. But it is not the only legitimate model. Also, If you sell 6 plans for 1GB each, your customers can then use more space than is available to you. This would be bad.


Are you suggesting you are happy to pay a host to simply invent hosting plans?? For me I pay a host to use space and monthly traffic.

I am not paying anyone to create my plans. (I am not a reseller) But I base all of my plans on actual customer utilization. If I sell a plan with 1GB or disk space. Then the server has 1GB dedicated just for that customer. Whether they use it or not.


Totally impracticable and unworkable. If I sell a plan offering 1 GIG space then the client needs to see this in their cPanel.

Yes, But if the customer has a 200MB site, then why not sell them a 200MB plan. Or a 250MB plan? This would fit easily within the apparent HostGator configuration. (Basing this on your own statements. No personal experiance with HostGator)


Don't forget, when I was shut out by HostGator I had not even uploaded on single file. I was shut out during adding my domains to my reseller account - they said all the space I had paid them to use was already used. This was an ABSOLUTE TOTAL LIE. I had not used any space or traffic. I had not even uploaded one single file for goodness sake.

Were you actualy "Shut Down" ? Or did the control panel simply prevent you from signing up more accounts? If it just prevented more signups, then I would say that is appropriate based on their business model.



Think about this, HostGator had taken my money for a reseller plan offering 5 GB space and whatever monthly bandwidth. I had not uploaded one single file yet it was full - tell me how much space on HostGator's hard drive was I occupying??? Practically none - certainly NOT the 5 GB I paid for!!! Tell me how much expensive traffic was I using ?? Practically none. Yet they took my money and told me I had reached my limit.

HostGator is selling you the ability to resell 5GB of space in the increments you choose to sell that space in. You chose 1GB increments. That gives you the ability to sell 5 of those plans. HostGator did not force you to choose the 1GB increments. Again, Their business model doesnt appear to match well with yours. But it is a totally valid plan and works well for them.



I'm sorry, but I find the whole concept of not allowing overselling i.e. the HostGator model of not allowing their customers to use the space and traffic they pay for as totally appalling. If pushed my bet is it could possibly even be deemed illegal. Harsh words but to try and justify not allowing customers to use what they pay for because of the space invented by the reseller in his/her hosting plans is a con that's gone on long enough. What's invented in hosting plans has nothing to do with anything, its imaginery and non existant until its actually used.

Illegal..? Are you joking?
Overselling has been argued as illegal. But I do not see how giving you exactly the space that you pay for could be considered illegal?





Would you be happy with your bradband ISP if they cut you off the moment you connected up to their service because your computer could "possibly" use more bandwidth than your plan allows???? They won't do this because its illegal. Only when you actually use up all of what you've paid then to use can they legally take action. Think about that for a moment.


This is a bad comparison.
My Broadband ISP (RoadRunner) uses exactily the same setup as hostgator. I have purchased a certain amount of bandwidth, and I am incapable of using more. So they do not oversell either. I have 15Mb/s down and 2Mb/s up. I regularly use 15 down and 2 up. but no more. I wouldn't expect them to give me more either.

Hostgater is giving you 5GBs of space. They are lettng you use 5GB of space. They are NOT allowing you to sell more space than you can use. I see no problem with that.

Basicaly, it seams to me that you are complaining that someone elses business model doesn't match yours. I say that you should look for a host that does match your business model.

I think the title should be changed as this has nothing to due with overselling....

It's more about the overselling enable feature in cpanel

This is not always true. It is true based on YOUR BUSINESS MODEL. This is your model, Not HostGators. It is certainly a legitimate model. But it is not the only legitimate model. Also, If you sell 6 plans for 1GB each, your customers can then use more space than is available to you. This would be bad.

Not bad at all. I'm sure a host would love to upgrade me if I need more space and bandwidth for my hosting clients. Its actually a very good thing for all concerned.


I am not paying anyone to create my plans. (I am not a reseller) But I base all of my plans on actual customer utilization. If I sell a plan with 1GB or disk space. Then the server has 1GB dedicated just for that customer. Whether they use it or not.
You think its dedicated to that customer but it isn't. It doesn't become used resources until its used resources, otherwise its non existant, whether its there for them or not.


Yes, But if the customer has a 200MB site, then why not sell them a 200MB plan. Or a 250MB plan? This would fit easily within the apparent HostGator configuration. (Basing this on your own statements. No personal experiance with HostGator)
It should not matter what I sell. What counts is what I use. The fact is "selling" doesn't use one single bit of resources provided by the host. Only useing uses resources.


Were you actualy "Shut Down" ? Or did the control panel simply prevent you from signing up more accounts? If it just prevented more signups, then I would say that is appropriate based on their business model.
It prevented me from adding more hosting accounts.


HostGator is selling you the ability to resell 5GB of space in the increments you choose to sell that space in.
Incorrect. HostGator are selling me 5GB space to use. If I don't intened to use it I would not buy it. I mean c'mon. Who in their right mind would pay HostGator for 5GB space and be happy about not being able to use that space.


You chose 1GB increments. That gives you the ability to sell 5 of those plans. HostGator did not force you to choose the 1GB increments. Again, Their business model doesn't appear to match well with yours. But it is a totally valid plan and works well for them.
I totally disagree. Fact is what I sell has no effect on what actual space and bandwidth HostGator are obliged to supply me. And make no mistake, taken further I am sure HostGator would be made to provide me with the space and bandwidth I paid for. Their argument about invented hosted plan space and bandwidth is flawed.


Illegal..? Are you joking?
No. Not joking at all. Since when does a business get away with not providing the consumer with what they paid for.


Overselling has been argued as illegal. But I do not see how giving you exactly the space that you pay for could be considered illegal?

Kindly tell me how much of HostGators disk space was used by me when they shut me out saying I had reached my 5GB limit?

I will tell you, hardly anything, certainly not the 5 GB space I purcahsed to use.


Hostgater is giving you 5GBs of space. They are lettng you use 5GB of space.
Incorrect. HostGator failed to allow me to use anywhere near 5 GB space yet they were more than happy to take my money for 5 GB space.


They are NOT allowing you to sell more space than you can use. I see no problem with that.
Well you should see a huge problem with that because what one sells does NOT use any of HostGators resources. It is only when space and bandwidth is actually used does it use HostGators resources, i.e. the resources I have paid for.

Basicaly, it seams to me that you are complaining that someone elses business model doesn't match yours. I say that you should look for a host that does match your business model.

You call preventing people from using what they pay for a business model!!! I call it sheer theft and one of the most convincing cons ever perpetrated upon unsuspecting consumers.

Cheers

Jumbuck,
There are other ways of looking at it. They are valid viewpoints. They may not agree with yours.

From my point of view, not yours, HostGator is sellign you space. so they cannot use it for anything else. so if they sell you 5GB of space, they have given it to you whether you use it or not, but if their servers are reasonably full, they cannot let you sell more space then they have on the server. If they do, they can overload the server and then the space you are paying for would not be available to you.

and I still do not see how they are not letting you use your space. They are simply limiting the space you are allowed to sell to what you have purchased. If you sell 5 plans that include 1GB each and the customers use 1GB then they will use all of your available space.

If I was a reseller, this is the type of host I would be looking for. This host is not selling more resources than the hardware they have to support it. That is a great thing. It is one of the things I feel is most important about the reseller plans that I offer on my own hardware. it is not the only business model out there. it doesnt match well with what you are trying to do. But a lot of people are not trying to sell accounts in the same manner you are and these accounts work well for them.

Simply look at all of HostGator's happy customers. They are all happy with the way this is set up.

Again, you can choose another host if you want. One that more closely matches your own needs.

Remember, this is about a viewpoint and business model, not about how many Gig worth of space you are actually using.

@Kintallon

You beat me to this about the plan comparisons.

I love discussions about Overselling unfortunately all the back and forth seems to give me a headache. Like I've said before I'm not a professional reseller but my experience has led me to prefer hosts that allow overselling.

It prevented me from adding more hosting accounts.

OK now thats out in the open, YOU cannot say it's hostgator who is causing the problems as I and a few other have said already redesign your packages and learn how the overselling enable works.

Example:

I can go to any 1 of our reseller servers ( which we have many ) and turn overselling enabled off and if I set the package space to 1 GIG and then make a package call 1 GIG and selling it to a customer, then YES i would not be allowed to create another account as I already sold the space allowed to me... EVEN if he does not used it...

If you don't like how that works then YOU should contact Cpanel about it or find a host with overselling enabled...

Now about overselling enable:

The only thing overselling enable allows is the RESELLER to SELL more space then they have by using unused space from there other customers...

Basically your stealing from your customers ;) and selling space you have not purchased yet...

Overselling NOT Allowed:

Virtually guarantees resellers will never get to use the space and traffic they have paid for.
The host can load many more reseller accounts onto a server because the space sold to other resellers is not likely to be used.
Allows hosts to overload the server and possible speed issues.



Jumbuck, honestly, there is alot wrong with these statements. First off, let me quantify our policy so that there are no misunderstandings. We run a hybrid model where our cluster is 40% undersold as a policy. We then allow resellers to oversell by 30% - thereby maintaining an undersold environment and allowing resellers the ability to responsibly oversell.

Now, let me address your comments

1) "Virtually guarantees resellers will never get to use the space and traffic they have paid for."

The only way to ensure that a reseller can use what they have purchased is actually have the resources available for every user on the system to use if required. Allowing resellers to oversell does not ensure that resellers will get to use what they pay for - it in fact decreases the probability that those resources will be available when required

2) "The host can load many more reseller accounts onto a server because the space sold to other resellers is not likely to be used."

This is true whether the provider allows resellers to oversell or not. Resellers cannot control the business model of the upstream provider. A host that allows resellers to oversell or one that doesnt can still oversell their environment to whatever extent they want. The real issue here is whether a root provider should allow resellers to dictate their allocation ratios. Personally, I think this is really dangerous. I am not judging whether overselling is good or bad - as frankly, that is irrelavent here - what is important is how much control a root provider has on the environment - and allowing a reseller to dictate allocation ratios for an environment is, in my opinion, silly.

3) "Allows hosts to overload the server and possible speed issues."

And the alternative is what? allow resellers to overload the environment and cause speed issues?

First off, reseller hosting, in my opinion, should not even be provided on single server environments - and if it is, then it is vitally important for the root provider to control allocation limits (ie NOT allow overselling or otherwise restrict usage and hope for the best). The good providers doing this on cpanel leave alot of excess capacity and strategically monitor and plan resource utilization, growth rates and migrations.

It is obvious that for your business model you feel it is imperative to have the flexibility to control your allocation rates - ok - if thats what you want, you will have no issue finding that - but, to suggest that alternate approaches is unethical or illegal is absurd - frankly - a provider is not entitled to hand over their allocation rates to their customers - some providers choose to do this and some customers demand this - but, this does not make it a requirement by any stretch of the imagination. If you really want uncontrolled overselling enabled, you should not be looking at single server environments - rather you should be looking at clustered environments where accounts can be allocated across multiple servers and resellers are able to seamlessly grow without filling up single servers. Even under this scenario, resellers with the ability to determine allocation ratios in an environment are dangerous - but, at least in the right environment, the risks will be mitigated and you will have a greater chance of receiving quality, sustainable service.

Overselling = Recipe for disaster. One way or another, you will annoy someone if you oversell without knowing damn well that the people you sell to wont use what you are providing.
Unlimited = BAD

:lovewht:

The concept of overselling is a strange one. Most people get the concept wrong.

Mainly because people associate a reseller as an end user.

A reseller purchases disk space to resell to their clients, not to use for themselves.

If a reseller gets 10GB of space to resell, then he can allocate that disk space for his clients to use, again the reseller is not purchasing the disk space to use, only to resell to his customers.

Make sense?

Is anybody really reading this from 1st post to last?

The subject, which again should be changed as it has nothing to do with overselling ( really )...

The real problem the person is talking about is the Cpanel overselling enable feature, which HG has off for there reasons.

I believe that there are 2 kinds of overselling.

1. Crazy overselling (100 GB space / 1 TB traffic / 5.99 $ accounts)

2. Not so crazy overselling.

I believe that these days overselling is a very good friend for a reseller. It helps keeping the prices down BUT must be done in a very responsible way. You cannot sell 100 GB plans and expect all users to use 1 GB but it's probably ok to sell 10 GB plans and to think that the average user uses no more then 8 GB.(even if it's a reseller).
Also if you want to oversell (as a reseller or dedicated server owner) you have to be ready to order another account / server when your clients start using.
Overselling can be used to create a very effective business plan.

Wow, this is a very interesting Topic :)

I am currently doing Reselling through Hostgator myself. The way I feel about it personally is, while I would rather have a host allowing reseller accounts to oversell, I have chosen to stay with Hostgator to establish my Business first. I see a big problem here on competing with the "Big Guys". That is, these hosts who offer shared packages with 1000 GB of space and thousands more GB of transfer. It leaves a reseller to wonder how they target an audience of users when these Bigger hosts are offering so much more. How do local ISP in your area survive serving up $10 a month 56k accounts when Verizon is offering 768/128 DSL for 14.99?

I think there are quite a few ways.

#1 Start locally, put a face to your business. Do what these "Big Guys" cannot do. Then allow your business to spread through word of mouth.

#2 Value added services. Include something for free that these huge companies cannot. (I am not talking about free billing managers here) Offer to setup a CMS for them. Offer to transfer their account. But, do it in a personal way. Not a system generated message.

#3 Do customer callbacks. Call Fred, introduce yourself as the Owner of your business. Ask him how his hosting is going. Is he able to easily upload his files. Is the service excellent for his needs? (Don't ask him if the service is Okay... Service should be excellent)

These are some things I have learned. I have been managing a restaurant for the past 5 years and have learned a lot in grass root marketing as well as the personal connection part of creating sales. I think the only way you'll become big, is if you start small and are happy with being small.

I guess I have side tracked the entire thread...

I think it directly relates to the issue of overselling though. The idea that you want to give out space left and right just to be able to, creates the idea that you do not plan to guarantee what you offer. There always exists the chance that all of your space will be used up, and for it to be used up in a manner that was controllable by you is dishonest to the customer.

Be happy that you're small for now. Build packages with value added services (That is, if you're currently a small host) Those bigger hosts offer that extra space because it is appealing. Bigger isn't always better.

My woman loves me, not because I have a huge package, but because I have lots of value added services :D

I think the bottom line is allowing TRUE USAGE (overselling) is by far the superior model. It ensures customers can use the space and traffic they pay for thus the reseller can grow and expand within a very competitive industry. The host will have the resources there because they allow you to use all of what you paid for.

However, basing space and traffic on NON USAGE (no overselling allowed) is really only taking money to allow you to invent hosting plans, actually using that space is only a secondary issue because the host is measuring your space and traffic on what you invent in your plans only. Therefore the host doesn't really have to give you any disk space or any traffic because these are not what your space and bandwidth usage is measured on.

Without measuring your space and bandwidth on you real usage a host that doesn't allow overselling can then freely keep loading up the server with more and more reseller accounts because true available space on a hard disk and true bandwidth usage is not what they base your usage on.

I think as long as there are people who genuinely are taken in by the line "overselling is bad", hosts will continue to have a win fall and deny their customers the right to actually use what they pay for. They will keep charging for nothing more than imaginary space and bandwidth you invent in your hosting plans. I simply can not believe people are taken in by this.

Cheers

I do tend to agree with this. But, to avoid the hassle I am not switching hosts until my company is up and 100%. I can sympathize with your points as they make sense. I think that the word overselling is wrong here. There has to be some other type of word. Overselling by one host to shared users is one thing. As those shared users do not resell services themselves. There needs to be another term for Hosts who sell Reseller access but meter their usage on allocation rather than utilization.

I think as long as there are people who genuinely are taken in by the line "overselling is bad", hosts will continue to have a win fall and deny their customers the right to actually use what they pay for. They will keep charging for nothing more than imaginary space and bandwidth you invent in your hosting plans. I simply can not believe people are taken in by this.

You have completely missed the point - there are certainly 2 sides to this and both sides are valid - but, it seems you are not willing, or are incapable of, seeing the other side.

I certainly agree that Overselling is not, be default, BAD. But each side has its limitations.

I am going to stick to not overselling. With this model, I know that my servers are never going to exceed their capability to deal with the traffic my customers are generating. I know that I will have fewer hardware failures and that most of my customers will have no outages if someone gets "Dugg" or "SlashDotted".

But I will also not be able to put as many customers on a given piece of hardware. I will have lower profit margins for a given customer or server. I know that it has taken longer to build the business up and all other things dealing directly with your profit margin are slightly less well funded.

But I find that customers are much happier with the service you are providing if you don't oversell. And, In general, I am happier and more confident in the services we provide.

Both are valid ways of doing things. This all comes down to a religious war.. Linux/BSD, Ford/Chevy, Overselling/Underselling.

I certainly agree that Overselling is not, be default, BAD. But each side has its limitations.

I am going to stick to not overselling. With this model, I know that my servers are never going to exceed their capability to deal with the traffic my customers are generating. I know that I will have fewer hardware failures and that most of my customers will have no outages if someone gets "Dugg" or "SlashDotted".

But I will also not be able to put as many customers on a given piece of hardware. I will have lower profit margins for a given customer or server. I know that it has taken longer to build the business up and all other things dealing directly with your profit margin are slightly less well funded.

But I find that customers are much happier with the service you are providing if you don't oversell. And, In general, I am happier and more confident in the services we provide.

Both are valid ways of doing things. This all comes down to a religious war.. Linux/BSD, Ford/Chevy, Overselling/Underselling.

Vantage, this in my opinion is the correct way to build a business - and in 5 years from now, you will be reaping the rewards of your patience and your forsight :)

Being able to survive a digg or a slashdot without anyone noticing even a hickup in their shared service is a HUGE value add - and simply put - too many customers are not willing to have their site shut down simply because of a spike in traffic - as such, and with the increased reliance from the consumer on heavier, data base driven applications - your market is growing faster then the oversold market. Personally, I will enjoy having a quality provider like you as a friendly competitor in this market space.

I have to say the arguments about being able to withstand a surge in traffic is convincing. I can see the added value to that but that would be a bit difficult to quantify as a sales point.

Overall I'm pretty conservative, I don't like wild and crazy schemes. I prefer a slow and steady host who weighs their decisions on how they will impact their customers. I (hope) think most people eventually learn that just playing the numbers game isn't the best way to being happy with your host. I mean who cares that you have 1000GB of anything if your service is consistantly down and performance is often slow?

I agree that this argument seems to bring out the fanboi's and what often starts out as an interesting discussion sometimes get's drowned out by the noise.

I can see the added value to that but that would be a bit difficult to quantify as a sales point.Indeed it is, as the overselling and overloading can be there despite the claims. High price does not always equal high end. The test of time and the subsequent word of mouth advertising are everything.

1) Designers who have no need to offer huge plans, and so can create realistic package limits of 200M, 100M, or even less. They can change quotas for individual accounts, etc. For these types of resellers, overselling not enabled is just fine.Excellent point.

IMO, as a reseller, the focus should not be on space and data transfer anyway. It's a fight that you just can't win. The selling points should be completely different, and the need to oversell would be virtually non existent then. The cost of space and data transfer would be if not completely negligible, then rather unimportant in relation to the price paid by the end user.

I have to say the arguments about being able to withstand a surge in traffic is convincing. I can see the added value to that but that would be a bit difficult to quantify as a sales point.

Hello Nnyan, honestly, this does not need to be quantified. Environments with excess capacity will have less issues, better performance and increased resiliency - overtime, the results of this model will be the most powerful sales tool.

Indeed it is, as the overselling and overloading can be there despite the claims. High price does not always equal high end. The test of time and the subsequent word of mouth advertising are everything.

Hi Dan - agreed ! I do not think anyone is discussing price points directly - as that has very little to do with things - my only point was whether a reseller is permitted to oversell or not has very little to do with whether their upstream provider overloads their environment. Having said this, even though higher prices do not automatically mean less loaded environments - it is almost impossible to achieve lower loads, etc without prices higher then the typical larger package providers...

@ Andrew: I think I should have been a bit more detailed. I agree with your assessment. This would be something that would come to the forefront over time, as quality always does. My point was more on the technical side of life. I know for some of our network application installs we often do a stress test, how well the application handles very high load traffic. Being able to show your capacity to handle large spikes (industry standards if there are such beasts for something like this) would be a tangible sales benefit.

@LDCDC Total agreement here. Quality leads to a solid reputation which feeds a positive word of mouth flow. I was on another website yesterday for the first time, and they linked to WHT which something like "WHT has some good things every once in awhile but people there want everything for nothing". I could not agree less with this assessment. I may not agree with everything everyone says here but I have yet to find a better collection of knowledgeable industry people then here. Very few of the long timers are wanting everything for nothing. A better education and opinions on hosting I have yet to find.

I tend to agree with what is being said here in general. However, evidence from my own experience as a reseller suggests hosts that base space and bandwidth on actual usage (overselling allowed) do tend to allocate this themselves for their resellers - because space and bandwidth is measured on what really is used - real physical usage.

However, hosts that base their reseller's usage only on the reseller's invented hosting plans (overselling not allowed) have an open door to overloading their own servers without it being noticed because physical space and bandwidth is not a part of their model.

This is why I have found hosts that do not allow overselling don't offer anywhere near the speed and reliability as hosts that do allow overselling. Yes, a very general observation that may not be true of all hosts but nevertheless concluded from personal experience.

If I needed another reseller account and wanted to err on the safe side as far as speed and reliability goes I would go with a host that based space and bandwidth usage on the true physical usage of my hosted accounts (overselling allowed). You would really be taking a huge risk going with a host that based usage on the resellers invented hosting plans only (overselling not allowed).

Cheers

This is why I have found hosts that do not allow overselling don't offer anywhere near the speed and reliability as hosts that do allow overselling. Yes, a very general observation that may not be true of all hosts but nevertheless concluded from personal experience.
How many hosts have you used that don't allow overselling, and what was your experience with them?

How many hosts have you used that don't allow overselling, and what was your experience with them?

HostGator was one, and two from here in Australia. My terrible HostGator experience is well documented in my previous posts within this thread.

Cheers

From your earlier posts I thought your experience of HG was limited to discovering the limits on creating new accounts - I don't see how that gives you any indication of their speed or reliability.

But for sure there are bad hosts that overload their servers, either because their prices are too low to sustain any other model or simply to maximise short-term profit. I just don't believe in the connection you're making - if anything I'd expect more of the bad hosts to be offering "overselling enabled" accounts to bring in clients more quickly.

This is definitely something resellers need to understand though in order to compare prices realistically - both to ensure that they're getting value for money (price not too high) and that the host has a sustainable business model (price not too low).

Jumbuck,
You never mention speeds or any type of reliability in any of the posts in this thread. All you have said about HostGator is that they don't have overselling turned on.

Most of us here are much more concerned with the quality of their support, the speed of the sites, the server load and the uptime of the servers. Overselling or not is just that important in and of itself.

This is why I have found hosts that do not allow overselling don't offer anywhere near the speed and reliability as hosts that do allow overselling. Yes, a very general observation that may not be true of all hosts but nevertheless concluded from personal experience.


I would say that this is not 100% true.

The reason you would see this ( slow servers, ect ) is if the provider is placing shared and reseller clients on the same server ( this is something many of the smallers host do ) or they are placing them on reseller only servers and not watching the servers and placing real limits on them.

The best thing is to find host who don't mix shared and reseller and who have real limits.


IMO, as a reseller, the focus should not be on space and data transfer anyway. It's a fight that you just can't win.


I will agree with that, many resellers go and buy a plan and then try to complete with the mid-size guys or the bigger host....

They just don't get it 100%, that it take a lot more then just a reseller account to even come close. :rolleyes:


"WHT has some good things every once in awhile but people there want everything for nothing"


It's true, I love seeing ( many post ) can you recommend me a host who has 10GB space and 100GB for 5 bucks and has 100% uptime :eek:

I would say that this is not 100% true.

The reason you would see this ( slow servers, ect ) is if the provider is placing shared and reseller clients on the same server ( this is something many of the smallers host do ) or they are placing them on reseller only servers and not watching the servers and placing real limits on them.
That makes no sense at all. By definition, a reseller hosting server is a shared hosting server. They are the same end-environment. Whether the host directly serves the 'shared hosting client' is irrelevant, the resource usage is the same.

I do agree that finding a hosting provider that has realistic limits is a good idea though.


Simon

No I won't agree you That makes no sense at all

Here's why: ( Not talking about clustered and real host )

I should have written it a little better, just doing many thing at once...

if your a provider who is selling say Shared accounts 10GB / 100GB and say 3GB/30GB reseller accounts and have them on the same server you will notice slower speeds. ( it may take some time to see it, but it will come in time )

Reason why... most providers who mix the accounts don't care about customers as the limits can't be controlled as well as breaking them up.

See most PROVIDERS say the provider limits the servers to 100-200 accounts :eek: , now tell me how you are going to control them with mixed accounts?

YOU CAN'T... meaning most providers server speeds will be slower due to them mixing them and the server being oversold.

Now if you have them broken them up... you can and will see better speeds as the control is alot easier...

Not say all providers like clustered and real providers who care about clients, I talking about the smaller guys who buy a server and think of hosting as a video game.