I would avoid any host that meets any of these situations:

1. Does not offer phone support of any kind
This is unacceptable.

2. Offers payment ONLY with PayPal.
They have a good chance of not being around very long.

3. Is not based in the country where there servers are located.
make sure they have servers in THERE own country.

Just my humble opinion of the current mess with hosting companies online...

I'd agree with all apart from #3 - I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to rent a host in the U.S. just because I'm Irish...?

Certainly nothing against the Irish :)

I find that people who rent servers in different countires have serious problems with:

1. Time zone and communication issues
2. Slow maintainence of servers
3. Increased likelyhood of downtime

I'm somewhat with Noel on his opinion on #3, I do find #1 a bit of a shot though.

Just because a company does not provide a phone number does not mean they are unreliable, or "unacceptable." There's tons of new web hosts popping up every day, and I'm sure that 99% of them don't start with an 800 number. Of course, only a few of those new webhosts will make it to the big league with the proper business plan, at which point extra staff can be hired and a phone number can be provided to their clients.

Everyone has to start somewhere, and everyone deserves a chance.

I agree, yet I feel I am perhaps a realistic exception.

The telecommunications in this country is frankly a mess, ADSL was only introduced in April (and we're dubbed the e-hub of europe heh)

But anyway, Time Zone is litreally nothing to me - I'm often working until 7am when most of my American pals have gone to bed... Plus most of my co-workers are Americans ;) so in my case I think I'm safer than most.

Well I disagree only because at the moment - I am down (on the back end anyhow)

I have no way to pick up the phone and call my provider who is in the U.K. with servers in Dallas.

Phone support is a must, and being in the same country - does have some obvious advantages.

Well Intraweb - I have genuine pity for you and your current situation, but I think this is a unique case and it's a tad unfair to paint us all with the same brush.

In some cases phone support is not needed as email support can be much faster. This depends on the host though of course. I dislike being put on hold for 20 mins for something as simple when it can be solved by email in 2 mins.

I don't think that phone support is a must. Why call when you can e-mail?
Hosts that doesn't have phone support can keep their prices lower than those with.

Intraweb,

Number 1 is the most important in my opinion. Even if i'm on hold for 20 minutes, its better than no response because their email is also down at the same time.

I also verify the domain record at truewhois.com to make sure everything matches on the web site.


Just recently I checked 40 offers here and less than 20% had a telephone number for support. Who would give their credit card number to a company without an address or phone number?

I completely disagree with #3. Take a look at a company like eServers.biz for example. Shazad and Imran are in the UK, but have servers in the US -- and they're still there for you 24 hours a day and offer an excellent service with excellent support. Look at MCHost, based in Canada, I believe. Their servers are in the US, and they are one of the largest and most well repected reseller hosts out there. The list could go on, but I think you get my point...

Originally posted by intraweb
I would avoid any host that meets any of these situations:

1. Does not offer phone support of any kind
This is unacceptable.

2. Offers payment ONLY with PayPal.
They have a good chance of not being around very long.

3. Is not based in the country where there servers are located.
make sure they have servers in THERE own country.

Just my humble opinion of the current mess with hosting companies online...

I disagree in #1 and #3

1. Its not needed, if the host have a help desk alive.
3. How its different if the host its based in dallas and servers are in Denver or Seattle?

Originally posted by intraweb
I would avoid any host that meets any of these situations:

1. Does not offer phone support of any kind
This is unacceptable.

2. Offers payment ONLY with PayPal.
They have a good chance of not being around very long.

3. Is not based in the country where there servers are located.
make sure they have servers in THERE own country.

Just my humble opinion of the current mess with hosting companies online...
Number 2, yes, but 1 and 3 are way off the mark, IMO. :) But we're all entitled to our opinions. :D

Originally posted by FDrive
I completely disagree with #3. Take a look at a company like eServers.biz for example. Shazad and Imran are in the UK, but have servers in the US -- and they're still there for you 24 hours a day and offer an excellent service with excellent support. Look at MCHost, based in Canada, I believe. Their servers are in the US, and they are one of the largest and most well repected reseller hosts out there. The list could go on, but I think you get my point...
Some more - voxtreme.com, based in Ireland - servers in USA - excellent provider. I could list dozens of repectable hosts from this forum who don't match your list. But as I said, you are quite free to express your opinions. Let's just not confuse them with factual statements. :cartman: :D

I guess we are all agreed about #2. But, I'm with everyone that says numbers one and three are of little consequence.

The only valid point you I feel you have is number 2. The rest is just blowing of steam caused by your current host. Our servers are located in the USA, our company is based in Australia. We have had no problems with communicating with our server providers, and just because we do not provide a phone number to over seas users doesn't mean we don't answer email. We also have an emergency paging system, whereby we are notified in emergencies.

Originally posted by esdjco
In some cases phone support is not needed as email support can be much faster. This depends on the host though of course. I dislike being put on hold for 20 mins for something as simple when it can be solved by email in 2 mins.
Phone support is way too expensive to roll out as your company grows, grows and grows. Maybe it's ok if it's just you and a hundred or so accounts. How do you do this effectively with 100,000 accounts?? Call centers are very expensive to operate and setup. This drives up your cost base and makes you less profitable or less competitive.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob

Phone support is way too expensive to roll out as your company grows, grows and grows. Maybe it's ok if it's just you and a hundred or so accounts. How do you do this effectively with 100,000 accounts?? Call centers are very expensive to operate and setup. This drives up your cost base and makes you less profitable or less competitive.

Very well stated, these are exactly my feelings on the subject.

Offering only the paypal option just seems cheap to me and not a really good billing solution. I mean as a side option yea but as a primary means of collecting payment, no. Are there a lot of hosts that only accept paypal? If so why?

Originally posted by intraweb
3. Is not based in the country where there servers are located.
make sure they have servers in THERE own country.

What's the difference between a host based in California with servers in Florida, or a host based in Toronto with servers in New York? Nothing! In both cases, the servers have to be remotely administrated, but hey this is the Internet -- thats what it's for!

Just my $0.02.

I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.

I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.

Phone support is NOT expensive, unless you are very very large - at which point it is all part of doing business.

If you are home based - as most of you are - simply get a TOLL-FREE number, forwarded to a seperate line in your home. Total cost - under $40 per month & apx. 6 cents per minute. If you can not afford this - you should not be offering services online. If you can not afford $40 per month, how can you afford to pay YOUR hosting fees - and if YOUR fees are not paid - then any service you provide to your customers will be interrupted, or eliminated.

Phone support is #1. Toll-Free & 24 hours are a real plus and shows you are in some capacity more of a 'REAL BUSINESS' then offering some useless online chat, or slow unacceptable email...

just my opinion anyhow....

Welcome to the global economy.
We've been waiting for you.

I mean, really.. why would someone even suggest getting a server in the USA if they live elsewhere?

Why would U.S. outsource their shoe making to asia and south america?

Doesn't make sen$e!

Originally posted by intraweb
Phone support is #1. Toll-Free & 24 hours are a real plus and shows you are in some capacity more of a 'REAL BUSINESS' then offering some useless online chat, or slow unacceptable email...

just my opinion anyhow....

So you think phone support would solve slow response by email?
How long have you been in the business?

Originally posted by intraweb
I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.

I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.


Phone support is #1. Toll-Free & 24 hours are a real plus and shows you are in some capacity more of a 'REAL BUSINESS' then offering some useless online chat, or slow unacceptable email...

just my opinion anyhow....

I think that most of us disagree with you because you doesn't showed a valid point, just because YOU have phone support doesn't mean anything. Your statements about that those who disagree with you were resellers, its just stupid like almost all your message.

Also, please show me how its different if you have your servers in Dallas and you're in NY?

Originally posted by intraweb
I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.

What's the difference between remote admining from Chicago and remote admining from ooo, say, New Zealand?

Originally posted by intraweb
If you are home based - as most of you are - simply get a TOLL-FREE number, forwarded to a seperate line in your home. Total cost - under $40 per month & apx. 6 cents per minute. If you can not afford this - you should not be offering services online. If you can not afford $40 per month,


Hang on a second. It's not a factor of not affording $40 per month - it's really going to be quite a bit more than that if you get a large volume of callers, now, won't it?

Originally posted by intraweb
I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.
Nope.
I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.

Phone support is NOT expensive, unless you are very very large - at which point it is all part of doing business.

If you are home based - as most of you are - simply get a TOLL-FREE number, forwarded to a seperate line in your home. Total cost - under $40 per month & apx. 6 cents per minute. If you can not afford this - you should not be offering services online. If you can not afford $40 per month, how can you afford to pay YOUR hosting fees - and if YOUR fees are not paid - then any service you provide to your customers will be interrupted, or eliminated.

Phone support is #1. Toll-Free & 24 hours are a real plus and shows you are in some capacity more of a 'REAL BUSINESS' then offering some useless online chat, or slow unacceptable email...
Nope again.
just my opinion anyhow....
Yep. :cartman:

Originally posted by intraweb
I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.


I live in the US, have servers in the US, and I still disagree with you.

Originally posted by intraweb
I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.

I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.
. . . . . . . . I see. :rolleyes:

Here I thought this thread was started over a genuine concern.

It now appears that it is only to slam others that are not like you.

This thread is not about your humble opinion. And the wish to help others avoid errors in choosing a host.

It is only meant as a flame by you to those that don't agree with you.

Doesn't appear as though it's working real well for ya though. :D

This thread is nothing short of not very cleverly disguised :spam:

I'm not a reseller.

I, too, vote to keep #2 as a legit issue, and scrap #1 and #3. Not realistic for most hosts.

And I'm not too clear on how the time zone difference poses a problem. Regardless of where I am there is always some client on the other side of the world. I'm in the US. Yet, my clients in Hong Kong, China, and Australia seem to think the support is fine. We're up half the night anyway.

Originally posted by Lurleene

And I'm not too clear on how the time zone difference poses a problem. Regardless of where I am there is always some client on the other side of the world. I'm in the US. Yet, my clients in Hong Kong, China, and Australia seem to think the support is fine. We're up half the night anyway.

Good point, I didn't even think about it in reverse like that. But you're right -- I haven't had any international customers complain about time zone issues. So why would it matter if I was the international one instead of them?


I'm getting the same feeling as you other people... this is beginning to seem like spam. Albiet clever spam, but spam nonetheless.

Ok - you guys/girls really lost the point of my post.

1. It was not a SPAM, or advertisment. I am not accepting any new consumer accounts at this time.

2. I just base this off of my past experiences, and again - calm down it is just MY OPINION. If you want to offer email only support, live in Africa and have servers in U.S., and accept only pay pal - this is YOUR CHOICE. :D

I am not saying I am better than anyone - I am just saying in my humble opinion these are 3 very clear signs to avoid A LOT of headaches down the road...

just my opinion (again)

I wouldn't see those three as conclusive criteria for good webhosts. Lets be realistic here. Most people ignore the advice they are given when it comes to unlimited, so don't expect them to look at your "rules" either.
I don't care if their phone number is posted or not, I just want to see it on a WhoIs. (and it better be a working number)
Funny how when people get screwed, the first thing they do is what they should have done before they signed up: a WhoIs. Then when they see non exsistant info, they scream "fraud!"

PayPal doesn't mean they won't be around, if anything, it means they haven't been around. Or that they are going out of their way to cater to the customer.

Servers in the same country would be nice, but not really neccessary if they are using a well known DC.

The real test as I see it is:
- Look at their WhoIs.
See if it looks like a real name and address is being used.
(I've eliminated over 50% of propects on just this one alone)
You can easily see what IP block they are using and find out where the servers are located. You can also ping them.
- Call the number listed, and make sure it is really them.
- Email them with questions and see how fast they answer.
- Do a google search, and a WHT search for the name to find out about other peoples experiences with them.

I highly doubt any fraudulent host is going to come up "clean" if you follow the above.

I have used phone support I believe once maybe twice since 1997! In both cases an e mail would have worked.
I really do not care where the servers are if I get good service.
I take Pay Pal for payment, not for web hosting and have been selling on the net for over 6 years!
A thief, crook or what ever can take you anywhere with anything.
All my hosts give very good support. The one with phone support ranks lower then the ones with e mail and MSN.
My best support comes from the host who lives outside the USA and has their servers in the USA. Which means I will be moving all accounts to that host as they expire.
Two hosts have taken me for money and both where based in the USA!
You just have to do your home work the best you can and never get into a hurry when looking for a host.
I am a host user and NOT a reseller or owner of a hosting company.

Number 1 and 3 are way off. I think that if a customer would want a phone call, a host should be obliged to call the person but not as a first line of contact.

Originally posted by intraweb
Ok - you guys/girls really lost the point of my post. . . . . . . . I think we understand, completely, the point of your post.

Originally posted by intraweb
Well I disagree only because at the moment - I am down (on the back end anyhow)

I have no way to pick up the phone and call my provider who is in the U.K. with servers in Dallas.

Phone support is a must, and being in the same country - does have some obvious advantages.

In Dallas? is your UK provider associated with C.I.Host either reseller,co-lo,dedicated?

That is the only big host here other than Verio (they have policy to house data at NOC nearest you).

Whoa, while I thought I was adding to your concerns, I see you typed your real motiveI think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.

I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.

Phone support is NOT expensive, unless you are very very large - at which point it is all part of doing business.

If you are home based - as most of you are - simply get a TOLL-FREE number, forwarded to a seperate line in your home. Total cost - under $40 per month & apx. 6 cents per minute. If you can not afford this - you should not be offering services online. If you can not afford $40 per month, how can you afford to pay YOUR hosting fees - and if YOUR fees are not paid - then any service you provide to your customers will be interrupted, or eliminated.

Phone support is #1. Toll-Free & 24 hours are a real plus and shows you are in some capacity more of a 'REAL BUSINESS' then offering some useless online chat, or slow unacceptable email...
just my opinion anyhow....
Phone support is OK, but I find most people need written confirmation or instructions. The phone just won't work in a lot of cases. I am not going to pay 6 cents a mintue to spell out the path to sendmail, (again) or their user name (again).
You sir, appear to be a snob, because your office is not in your home.
Well, I have you beat. (except for the snob part)
My 400 sq foot, 2 corner office (ooh two corners!) is nicer than yours because:
I don't have to drive there.
I can be there when needed 24/7.
It is temperature controlled.
It is totally secure with 6 foot tall sceurity fences to hold the attack dogs and electronicly monitored.
I have a nice view, and am surounded on three sides by lovely landscaping. (The dogs like it too)
I have a really nice custom buit in to the wall fish tank to relax my eyes when needed while working.
I am only 10 foot from a full service kitchen. (Coffee is served 20 hours a day)
I am only 20 feet from a full bath.
I am happy, healthy and solvent. (and I don't SPAM)
So there!
Now don't tell me how to run my biz, and I won't tell you how to run yours.

I have no way to pick up the phone and call my provider who is in the U.K. with servers in Dallas.

Phone support is a must, and being in the same country - does have some obvious advantages.

If he doesn't answer your email, what make you think that he will answer your phone calls?

ATST - there is no need to be like that. I didn't call you a name, so let's not act like a child and name call people. I am not telling anyone how to run their business. Nor do I SPAM. THIS IS NOT A SPAM - I am not accepting new customers at this time.

I am pointing out, the phone support issue in my OPINION is 100% essential. If my service is down - I expect to contact someone within 30 minutes - maybe an hour max. Maybe not a solution, but at least a contact.

Ok - I will rank MONITORING 24/7 even higher than phone support. If no one is monitoring online help, email, or the server 24/7 than you are pretty much out of luck...

Just my opionion (again)... Let's not resort to name calling - I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

I can understand that some customers will want phone support. That's fine - if that's what they need then that's what they want. Most of the hosts around here don't cater to that need.

As for number three - I think what is most important is the data centre you host is in and the level of support that data centre, colo provider, etc gives the host. As has already been pointed out, Sydney to Parsippany is no more remote in practicality than Miami is to L.A. You aren't going to fly accross the world or the continent to reboot your server or replace a hdd! In these situations you relly on having responsive and competent support from your colo/dedi provider.

Ever noticed how some hosts are proud to announce the exact data centre they are in in their about us page on their website while most describe "thier" data centre in very vague and generic terms? It's no suprise when you traceroute and find out which data centres the upfront hosts are in and which cowboys the evasive hosts are with.

:)

Regarding your 1, 2, 3...

1. I don't care how they offer support as long as they are responsive to problems in a timely manner when they occur. That's the bottom line.

2. I don't care how they choose to take my money as long as they don't take more than what was agreed, and offer adequate billing correction if there comes a time when that is needed.

3. I don't care where they or their servers are located so long as my server is up and when it isn't, see #1.

Originally posted by intraweb

I am pointing out, the phone support issue in my OPINION is 100% essential. If my service is down - I expect to contact someone within 30 minutes - maybe an hour max. Maybe not a solution, but at least a contact.


That doesn't make sense. If you email us your problem, or preferably submit it as an "urgent" problem via the helpdesk, you can get it attended to within 5-10 minutes. If we were to accept calls, then chances are, you would be put on hold for 30 minutes or more. Email and live chat are faster than phone support.

I agree phone support is not a must, because everyones business model differs..

I think some of you guys owe IntraWeb an apology for name-calling and basically giving him a hard time. Just because his opinion is different than yours does not mean that he is any more stupid than you may be. I also don't see where he is spamming or being arrogant at all.

I think he's absolutely right about the fact that many of you that disagree don't follow his suggestions, and are either resellers, have servers in a different country, or don't have a phone number. It's his opinions... which he is entitled to.

He already explained the difference between having the company in one US city and the server in another as opposed to having the server in the US and the company in a different country... yet people keep asking what the difference is.

Originally posted by chrisb
. . . . . . . . . I think he's absolutely right about the fact that many of you that disagree don't follow his suggestions, and are either resellers, have servers in a different country, or don't have a phone number. . . . . . . .I'm not a reseller.
Servers in the same country.
Phone number is on site.


And I don't agree with him; and now you.



But, Hey! This is a forum. We get that stuff all the time.
We surely ain't all gonna agree on everything.

Originally posted by SoftWareRevue
I'm not a reseller.
Servers in the same country.
Phone number is on site.


And I don't agree with him; and now you.




You may not be in that category, but I believe that most of the people I saw responding to Joe(Intraweb) are, and he cleverly picked up on that.

You asked so...
1. I agree except I don't agree that the number has to be an 800 number.
2. I agree with;
3. I forgot what that was.

And what are you doing up so late SWR? Its' past your bedtime.

You're wrong as Joe.

I do not disagree with him because I live in another country, I disagree with him, because I think in a diferent way than he did.

I agree with Jedito, just ignore people like Joe, they are just jealous that hosts who don't have these features have so many clients whilst he has these features and doesn't have that many clients - Jealousy!!!

:stickout

Originally posted by Jedito
You're wrong as Joe.

I do not disagree with him because I live in another country, I disagree with him, because I think in a diferent way than he did.

I see. So because you "think in a different way" gives you grounds to say that all of his statements are stupid.

Edude: No, I don't think there is any jealousy involved here.

Yes, I think that this is just plain stupid.


I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.

I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options

Since he can say his opinion, can I say mine?

Originally posted by chrisb
. . . . . . . . . . .
And what are you doing up so late SWR? Its' past your bedtime. Finally!! Something we can all agree on. :D




Just had one o dem; wake up, and I mean wide awake, kinda things goin' on. :eek:

Originally posted by Jedito
Yes, I think that this is just plain stupid.



Since he can say his opinion, can I say mine?

uh... I think you already have. :)

SWR: LOL

Chrisb: yes i do think jealously is involved, because hosts from other countries around the world have clients from the U.S.A, when mr Joe probably doesnt have so many clients and he is based in the U.S.A, he is just plain jealous..

I said "can I say mine" not, "can I have mine" :)

I think, "Hosting Situations To Avoid" come down to:

1) Avoid ******
2) Avoid ********
3) And, above all others, avoid **********

Follow these simple rules and your hosting experience will be greatly improved.

Maybe should add number four:

4) Never go with a host that has * in their name at WHT. ;)

Originally posted by edude
Chrisb: yes i do think jealously is involved, because hosts from other countries around the world have clients from the U.S.A, when mr Joe probably doesnt have so many clients and he is based in the U.S.A, he is just plain jealous..

By your use of the word "probably", you do not know whether he has few clients or not, so how can you come up with a conclusion of jealousy based on "an assumption with no foundation?" It is a guess at best.

Jedito: More than I want to know. :)

Numero Cinco: Never go with a host who's posts manifest a bad attitude at WHT. ¿compreñde¿

que es una mala actitud para vos? y como esta relacionado eso con la calidad del servicio que brinda?
Entendes ? :)

Well someone tell me where I should put my servers then?

I have a home on Australia and one in Arkansas USA so should I move my servers everytime I change locations?

Yes Monte, thats right..

Maybe you should place your servers in Hawaii? :P

Or in a trailer with some kind of wireless connection, and move with your servers to everywhere you go.

Know any good colo's there?:confused:

Originally posted by intraweb
ATST - there is no need to be like that. I didn't call you a name, so let's not act like a child and name call people. I am not telling anyone how to run their business. Nor do I SPAM. THIS IS NOT A SPAM - I am not accepting new customers at this time.

I am pointing out, the phone support issue in my OPINION is 100% essential. If my service is down - I expect to contact someone within 30 minutes - maybe an hour max. Maybe not a solution, but at least a contact.

Ok - I will rank MONITORING 24/7 even higher than phone support. If no one is monitoring online help, email, or the server 24/7 than you are pretty much out of luck...

Just my opionion (again)... Let's not resort to name calling - I respect your opinions, even if I don't agree with them.

I will agree to your monitoring remark, that will reduce the need for support no matter how you choose to provide it.

Originally posted by chrisb
I think some of you guys owe IntraWeb an apology for name-calling and basically giving him a hard time. Just because his opinion is different than yours does not mean that he is any more stupid than you may be. I also don't see where he is spamming or being arrogant at all.

I think he's absolutely right about the fact that many of you that disagree don't follow his suggestions, and are either resellers, have servers in a different country, or don't have a phone number. It's his opinions... which he is entitled to.

He already explained the difference between having the company in one US city and the server in another as opposed to having the server in the US and the company in a different country... yet people keep asking what the difference is.

Nah, he is not correct about people being resellers just becuase they dont provide one of the three things he listed. We dont post our number on our site but it shows up on your credit card bill no matter what you have (visa, mastercard, amex). A phone is needed to do business, you have to make calls and take calls sometimes, but I dont think its a very good means of normal support.

The way you talk is as if you've been in business for ages and you are a real EXPERT.

But guys give a whois ( go to http://www.checkdomain.com ) to his domain.

His been online since June and he cannot afford US$ 70.00 to renew his domain for 10 Years. Why do you talk about US$ 40.00 that people cannot afford ?

domain: hostingwave.com
created: 2002-06-24 23:29:11 UTC JORE-1
modified: 2002-06-25 14:40:28 UTC JORE-1
expires: 2003-06-24 17:29:05 UTC
source: joker.com

Just my opinion ;-)

#3 is so wrong

The price of bandwidth in the UK is stupid

So can give better service / prices using US servers

I agree with Jag, and GUESS WHAT!

Its proven that techies provide better support via e-mail than over the phone!

*Newbie alert! My 2 cents are really only worth about 1 cent at this point, so use my advice at your own risk. :) *

From the perspective of someone who's new to paid hosting, I don't think it's feasible to have phone support in the beginning. The manpower and funds needed to keep it going simply aren't feasible for most who don't have major money to dump into their operation. I felt my money was better spent elsewhere.

That said, I think it's wise to at least have a phone number listed. I don't advertise my number, but it sits there for everyone to see under my 'Contact' section. If someone wants to call and ask a question, and I'm available, I'll help out. Otherwise, they can leave a message. But the number provides for some reassurance to the customer and is an essential element for emergency communication following a service failure. For emergency support, I have built an emergency paging system with PHP that uses the text-messaging function of my cell phone to page me whenever there's a problem.

So long as I have my phone with me, customers always have a way to get to me, either directly or indirectly.

In conclusion, I think #1 is important, but not as a primary support vessel.

That's my .01c.

Brian

I just think it's funny when folks think their opinions are right and anyone else with a differing opinion, is wrong or stupid. God forbid we have differences of opinion. :D :rolleyes: :cartman:

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
I just think it's funny when folks think their opinions are right and anyone else with a differing opinion, is wrong or stupid. God forbid we have differences of opinion. :D :rolleyes: :cartman:

I don't know if this post its related to me, but since I was the first who used the word stupid in this thread, I want to clarify if it were any kind of confusion.

I never said that he's stupid.
I said that his statement about that "who disagree with him are resellers" its stupid.

Again, I don't know if your message its related to mine, but I wanted to clarify, just in case :)

I dont agree with no.3 or no.1.

I am just going into business with my brother as a webhost (www.dynamitehost.com), we have a service like humanclick (not humanclick obviously), so you can chat with a site operator. We do supply a mobile phone number, but quite obviously, we have only just started and cant afford to run an 0800 number.

Also, some people have no-one else to go with apart from paypal... I am using Nochex, Paypal, CCNow & PayBox, So I can accept... US/Worldwide ($): MasterCard, Visa, Discover & American Express. UK (£): MasterCard, Visa, Solo & Switch.

Oh, and I also find most of the world is very far behind (including the uk) in connections and whatnot, thats why we HAVE to have our servers based in the US, its hardly an option where I live.

Anyway, thats my bit :)

hmmm, this has taken a nasty turn hasn't it?
Me thinks his plan failed. :D
I hope now he knows people will not tolerate being called resellers because he feels they do not live up to a standard he thinks he is the model of.

Intraweb (hostingwave.com),

We are from Russia (GMT+10) and what???

We are in computer-software business since 1997 and in hosting business almost 15 months, we own 4 hosting websites, host *** sites, host sites with 110Gb/m traffic, the name of our main (local) company - "Hacker's House, Ltd"

... and we have no phone support :D :D

Ugly? Does it mean that our customers are not happy?

NNNNOO! no way! Our customers are the best!

If they ask us - "where are you from?", our answer - "we are from Russia, we are "Hacker's House, Ltd" ... and in almost 100% cases receive an order in 10-20 minutes after reply.

P.S. We have a game in the office - to search webhostingtalk.com and to read threads about pure customers who were ***** by US BASED host with PHONE support ;)

Let me guess H2, you only host people that dont mind people who dont make any sense :D

Originally posted by Jedito


I don't know if this post its related to me, but since I was the first who used the word stupid in this thread, I want to clarify if it were any kind of confusion.

I never said that he's stupid.
I said that his statement about that "who disagree with him are resellers" its stupid.

Again, I don't know if your message its related to mine, but I wanted to clarify, just in case :)
Sorry. My post was just a general observation and statement. I was not referring to anyone in particular etc. :)

For those of you who must know...

My domain hostingwave.com is a fairly new domain. My other domain was worldwidenow.com which - as you will all see was registered since early 1997. I actually have a fair amount of customers - most of my hosting customers also purchase other value addded services (consulting, scripting, e-commerce, etc.,)

Most of the people here who do not believe phone support is essential - are also the same people I see bashing their hosts when they can not get a hold of them, or they are down. Issues that take 5-10 hours in email, can be settled in 5-10 minutes on the phone.

And how good is email support if your server is down? Many hosts I see in this forum are on the same servers as their customers. So if all servers are down (or the server that has YOU and YOUR host) - then what good is email? Who can retrieve your inquiry?

Phone support at a minimum as an emergency, or second line of defense is essential (in my ever so humble opinion). If I send an email and am down - get no response or solution in ONE HOUR - I believe I have the right to pick up the phone and be heard.


just my opinion (once again)...

Originally posted by intraweb

Phone support at a minimum as an emergency, or second line of defense is essential (in my ever so humble opinion). If I send an email and am down - get no response or solution in ONE HOUR - I believe I have the right to pick up the phone and be heard.


So what you really want is a one-hour response time, not necessarily phone support. Right?

As for an emergency, such as the box that the support email and helpdesk is hosted on going down, what do you say to hosts that offer AIM/MSN/ICQ support?

Originally posted by Jag
Nah, he is not correct about people being resellers just becuase they dont provide one of the three things he listed.
Huh? That's not what I said.

We dont post our number on our site but it shows up on your credit card bill no matter what you have (visa, mastercard, amex). A phone is needed to do business, you have to make calls and take calls sometimes, but I dont think its a very good means of normal support.
Then, why not just put the phone number on your site? You can't check out a phone number before signing up if it's only on the credit card statement.

Also, I did not look up his whois info; so I'm glad he explained that for us.

Interesting discussion even though the majority disagree with #1 and #3.

Jedito: Me español es no muy bueño. :)

As for an emergency, such as the box that the support email and helpdesk is hosted on going down, what do you say to hosts that offer AIM/MSN/ICQ support?

AIM/MSN/ICQ these are NOT professional use tools. These are for personal - or hobby use...

Nothing is faster and more productive than a phone call.

Originally posted by intraweb


AIM/MSN/ICQ these are NOT professional use tools. These are for personal - or hobby use...

Nothing is faster and more productive than a phone call. Please explain to us how spoken words are faster, more productive, and more professional than written words.

It is so easy to misinterpret a spoken language. Written works leave little room for misunderstandings.

I fail to understand the logic.

Also, please explain to me how I can cut and paste url's over the phone. Also, if you could point me to how it's easier to spell out a path/to/a/filename on the phone than it is over an instant messenger, I'd appreciate that as well.

Originally posted by intraweb


AIM/MSN/ICQ these are NOT professional use tools. These are for personal - or hobby use...

Nothing is faster and more productive than a phone call.

Phone calls are horribly unproductive in terms of time spent versus time to resolution.

I would say that a real professional would use whatever tools are available to use (ticketing systems, email, messengers, IRC, forums) in order to take care of customer needs instead of dismissing alternatives out of hand.

You know no one here is going to change anyones mind one way or the other.

All this about phone support is silly, I have an 877 for emergency support issues several of my clients have my home number as well as my cell phone. None use it. They all use email or support desk some use the live chat and ICQ , Yahoo IM. I get one phone call maybe every 3 months.

As far as a site being on the same server, yes mine is, but I also have a complete back up support desk and support forum off server in a different data center using different pipes. I think most host should do that in case of a data center or network outage.

Lets face it if Interweb wants to advertise the fact he has a 800 number and it brings him more customers, great.

But I still do not get the server in same country issue tho and never will, makes no sense to me.
Data centers I use have 24/7 support so what dif does it make if I am on the same time zone as them or not? Not like I am going to jump in the car and go fix it anyway, if it is hardware I am getting them to fix it, software I am going to shell in and fix it no matter where I am.

yes,
it would be nice to be able to contact your hosting provider but, you panted all of us start ups in a bad light now. We are trying to start a business that will be a round for a long time. and to help keep costs down we dont have a 800 number right off the bat.
i personaly would give out my number to any client that asks for it just to make shure they fell that i can be reached at a moments notice. paypal does have it down sides but for right now it is a cheep way to get the money rolling in to the start ups will be able to offer CC and other forms of payment. it does take money to make money after all. for the people who read this please dont judge any of the start up web hosting providers by what one person says use your own common sence.

NOTE -- i am not trying to bash anyone i am just posting my thoughts on this matter. every one is intittled to there own views of anything.
James

Originally posted by intraweb


AIM/MSN/ICQ these are NOT professional use tools. These are for personal - or hobby use...


According to who? You? Certainly not my clients -- they love the feature.

I am still amazed how many of you still think my intnet of the post was to generate more business - since I have a toll-free number... that is crazy... I don't spam...

A toll-free number, is not very expensive - even for start-up's. If you can not afford $40 - $200 for a toll-free number - then I would question how I could depend on this host to pay THEIR bills - because if my host doesn't pay THEIR bill - then my service will certainly go down.

How do you afford your server rental/lease fees?
How do you afford to advertise?

Phone support is all relevant in the big picture of operating a 'BUSINESS'.

But the real question here is: are you operating a 'business' or a 'hobby'? If you do not have sepearte bank accounts, business plan, budgets, some form of company created - then it sounds more to me like you are running a 'hobby' not a 'business'. And some poor customer out there has no way of knowing your capacitiy to provide long term service.

I hope all of the 'hobby' hosting companies do well. I hope you all make tons of money - but maybe we should all sit back and be a little realistic here as to the definition of what we are talking about. When the dust settles (whenever that may be) the unfortunate truth is those running like a 'hobby' may not be able to survive the long haul. This could be web hosting, a mini-mart, or any other business for that matter - it is all relevant business principles.

just my unpopular opinion.... again...

Originally posted by Monte
. . . . . . . . .
All this about phone support is silly, I have an 877 for emergency support issues several of my clients have my home number as well as my cell phone. None use it. They all use email or support desk some use the live chat and ICQ , Yahoo IM. I get one phone call maybe every 3 months. . . . . . . . .And that about sums up this nonsense about phone support.

If you are getting one call every 3 months, it means you have no customers :-)

Originally posted by intraweb
But the real question here is: are you operating a 'business' or a 'hobby'? If you do not have sepearte bank accounts, business plan, budgets, some form of company created - then it sounds more to me like you are running a 'hobby' not a 'business'.

Have you ever thought why so many people react harsh on your posts?
By some parts of your postings you are insulting successfull hosts - why?
BTW, I know even a host operating some hundreds servers with excellent support without any phone support.

My opinions set aside - you at least have to admit the post was a 'conversation piece' anyhow.... :D

Heh, yes, quite a conversation piece indeed :stickout

Originally posted by intraweb
If you are getting one call every 3 months, it means you have no customers :-)

If you expend $40 per month in a toll free number, its because you have no calls, then no customers.

Also, you said that toll its not expensive as long you don't get a lot of calls, so, what you'll will do when you grow up? cancel the service?

Could be possible that you stop to treat as amateur to anybody else who don't think like you?


Also, why don't you pay $24/month and get removed the bravenet advertise in your Human Click icon? Geez, some people.

Originally posted by intraweb
If you are getting one call every 3 months, it means you have no customers :-)


Since it takes longer to offer phone support than it does to answer an email and with phone support you can only work on one issue at a time and only talk to one customer at a time. I have to conclude that if you have enough time to post here insulting other host while offering pure phone support to all your customers, it is you sir that has no customers.

So far you have managed to insult as many people as you can in one thread, by calling everyone who disagrees with you a hobby host. If your customer skills are as bad as the people skills you have shown here it is no wonder either.

Originally posted by Monte



Since it takes longer to offer phone support than it does to answer an email and with phone support you can only work on one issue at a time and only talk to one customer at a time. I have to conclude that if you have enough time to post here insulting other host while offering pure phone support to all your customers, it is you sir that has no customers.

So far you have managed to insult as many people as you can in one thread, by calling everyone who disagrees with you a hobby host. If your customer skills are as bad as the people skills you have shown here it is no wonder either.

Amen!

Originally posted by Monte



Since it takes longer to offer phone support than it does to answer an email and with phone support you can only work on one issue at a time and only talk to one customer at a time. I have to conclude that if you have enough time to post here insulting other host while offering pure phone support to all your customers, it is you sir that has no customers.

So far you have managed to insult as many people as you can in one thread, by calling everyone who disagrees with you a hobby host. If your customer skills are as bad as the people skills you have shown here it is no wonder either.

I have never intented, nor do I wish to insult anyone here. Personally - I don't know all of your "businesses" - so I can certainly not comment on anyone specifically.

I don't call everyone who disagrees with me a 'hobby host'.

Here is the solution to this conversation:

Maybe we should eliminate email support as well. It uses computer resources, takes a lot of time to read and respond - maybe we should go to SNAIL MAIL only for tech responses. It is almost as fast as email! Simply write your problem down on a piece of paper and mail it to a p.o. box. Hey - you can even charge for this service to supplement the $2 per month hosting charge.

Priority level low - use regular mail 4-6 day response time
(example: need configuration instructions, billing questions)

Priority level medium - use priority mail 2-3 day response time
(example: portions of control panel not working, error messages, lost passwords)

Priority level high - use over night mail 1 day response time
(NOTE: Please only use over night mail if server is down for more than 24 hours)

You will receive a post card in the mail when your problem has been corrected.

....just a joke folks.... lighten up a bit....



:D :D :D

hahaha monte, :agree:

i always said he had no customers ;)

[Edit]

Never mind. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by intraweb


Maybe we should eliminate email support as well. It uses computer resources, takes a lot of time to read and respond - maybe we should go to SNAIL MAIL only for tech responses. It is almost as fast as email!
:D :D :D

Naw some how my poor suffering customers are satisfied with the average response time of 30 minutes or less for all their support questions, I think I will stick with what works for them.

Is this thread still going?? I lost interest ages ago. :rolleyes: :cartman:

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
Is this thread still going?? I lost interest ages ago. :rolleyes: :cartman:

Good call, Bob :stan:

Well i guess you loose interest too quickly bob :rolleyes:

Originally posted by edude
Well i guess you loose interest too quickly bob :rolleyes:
I'm getting old. I'll be 40 soon you know. :eek: [in about 7years ;)] :blush:

I lost interest too - and I started this mess...

:D

Well, I think this is a very interesting discussion. Though the subject's been brought up before in a different way, it's a subject that is always worth rehashing for new ideas as new people come aboard WHT.

The guy made suggestions and some good ones at that. I see no advertising, spam, or insults in his posts. Some of you must be insecure or just plain jealous to think that it was more than that, and to take it personally. Why are you reading things into his posts that are not there?!?!?!

Monte's 1 phone call in 3 months either means one of two things... either he has no customers or his customers are unique. Every host gets a different set of customers as their market is unique as defined by their offerings. While Monte may well get only 1 call every 3 months; others may get 20 calls a month or more.

A phone number is important, and it is silly to think otherwise. As a customer looking for a host, I'd strongly advise people to look for a host that lists a phone number and to try it, and make sure it's real.

To hosts, I'd suggest listing a phone number, but not a toll-free one. Make the customer pay for the call, and you should get less useless calls that way.

I realize that some hosts that don't list their phone number have been successful; but think of how much more successful they might have been with a phone number, or the better clientele they may have drawn.

Email, AIM, livechat and all that is well and good; but here in America where everybody is in love with the telephone, people "expect" and "rely" on a phone number. When something goes wrong, the phone is the first method of contact most people want to try.

Originally posted by chrisb
When something goes wrong, the phone is the first method of contact most people want to try.

What are you basing that on? (not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely curious)

Crisb is a man that makes a lot of sense - listen to him people!

MY MORAL OF THE POST CAN BE WRAPPED UP BELOW. IT IS NOT SO MUCH ABOUT PHONE SUPPORT AS IT IS PERSONAL SERVICE, BOTH IN AN EMERGENCY AND NOT IN AN EMERGENCY. Some of the hosts online are like talking to a brick wall. You can't contact a human efficiently.

Read my approach below, maybe then you will understand:

I will admit that I only get a handfull of incoming calls per day (apx. 12 - which costs me apx. $2-$3 a day total), but I also call every customer upon signup - this is just my style. It also cuts down on fraud in the process.

Last month I even mailed one of my customers a birthday card. This is a true story - you can email him if you like. The card cost me $.50 + $.34 for the stamp (at the time). Ok - this sounds odd but he was turning 70 years old - not bad! I knew this since I had called him for apx. 5 minutes upon signup. He has since sent me over 10 customers! (His son is a web developer). Each is paying on average $14.99 per month. So my $.74 investment returned $149.90 per month - or $1798 annually!

As silly as it may sound, I do like to thank every customer for their business - and some folks could care less, but most actually appreciate the call. Most calls have either led to refferals or additional business down the road. I have even called my customers at random, to see if they have any suggestions, or problems.

I find that very few people are actually 'annoyed' by my 2 or 3 calls annually. This has led to a very high customer satisfaction rating, and a very high retention rate, and high refferal rate. Let's not forget that word of mouth is the best form of advertising.

BTW, I don't use my phone carrier for most outgoing calls. I use these south of the border (I am in Texas) calling cards that are under 1 cent per minute. My average cost per outgoing call is between 3-5 cents. I spend more than that on one useless pay per click. Retention is everything.

Work hard to get your customers. Work harder to keep them.

Originally posted by FDrive


What are you basing that on? (not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely curious)
Yes. Please make public your data that proves your above statement. Otherwise add the IMO [In My Opinion] in front of your statement.

I'm serious. I'm not having a dig here. I'm curious to know if there are actual case studies that have been conducted [in the context of the hosting business] in this area.

Originally posted by intraweb
Crisb is a man that makes a lot of sense.

Well, you got the "man" part right. :) ...and you can just call me "Chris".

Are you saying that because I agree with you in part more than the others. ;) Anyway, thanks for the compliment.

Originally posted by intraweb
[B]Crisb is a man that makes a lot of sense - listen to him people!
chrisb has opinions and expresses them. Nothing wrong with that. :)
<snippage> :D Work hard to get your customers. Work harder to keep them.
Amen to that. :D

Originally posted by chrisb
Well, I think this is a very interesting discussion. Though the subject's been brought up before in a different way, it's a subject that is always worth rehashing for new ideas as new people come aboard WHT.

The guy made suggestions and some good ones at that. I see no advertising, spam, or insults in his posts. Some of you must be insecure or just plain jealous to think that it was more than that, and to take it personally. Why are you reading things into his posts that are not there?!?!?!


I have to think that you didn't read the whole thread, other than that I can't understand why do you say that.

Let me point you to some things that make me piss out.

When the people disagreed with him, he said this


think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself.

I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers, with few options.

Phone support is #1. Toll-Free & 24 hours are a real plus and shows you are in some capacity more of a 'REAL BUSINESS' then offering some useless online chat, or slow unacceptable email...


Althrough he always said its my opinion, somehow its making accusations based in nothing.

You know, I break my ass working form my company, and I don't need an arrogant comming here and calling me names because I disagree with him, I felt insulted.

But, he didn't stoped in that point.


But the real question here is: are you operating a 'business' or a 'hobby'? If you do not have sepearte bank accounts, business plan, budgets, some form of company created - then it sounds more to me like you are running a 'hobby' not a 'business'. And some poor customer out there has no way of knowing your capacitiy to provide long term service.

I hope all of the 'hobby' hosting companies do well. I hope you all make tons of money - but maybe we should all sit back and be a little realistic here as to the definition of what we are talking about. When the dust settles (whenever that may be) the unfortunate truth is those running like a 'hobby' may not be able to survive the long haul. This could be web hosting, a mini-mart, or any other business for that matter - it is all relevant business principles.

Then.. because people disagree again with him, he call them "hobby hosting companies".

Should I explain more?

Originally posted by Jedito
. . . . . . .
Should I explain more? I wish you would. But, I know at least two people that have chosen not to listen.
So . . . . . . . I'm sure they will not understand. :(

I see no need for me or anyone to have to put IMO before expressing an opinion, though I do it sometimes. If it's a fact, I use the word "fact". It's that simple.

BTW, it's a FACT that you stated earlier that you were getting tired of this thread. So, IMO, it doesn't make sense that you are still responding. ;)

Originally posted by chrisb
I see no need for me or anyone to have to put IMO before expressing an opinion, though I do it sometimes. If it's a fact, I use the word "fact". It's that simple.
You made a statement chrisb -
Email, AIM, livechat and all that is well and good; but here in America where everybody is in love with the telephone, people "expect" and "rely" on a phone number. When something goes wrong, the phone is the first method of contact most people want to try.
[bold by me] I was just wanting to know if you could back that up with some hard data or if it was just your opinion.
BTW, it's a FACT that you stated earlier that you were getting tired of this thread. So, IMO, it doesn't make sense that you are still responding. ;)
Tired of the thread, yes. Most here are. But I never said I was not going to post in this discussion again, did I?? :)

Originally posted by Jedito


I have to think that you didn't read the whole thread, other than that I can't understand why do you say that.

Let me point you to some things that make me piss out.

When the people disagreed with him, he said this



Althrough he always said its my opinion, somehow its making accusations based in nothing.

You know, I break my ass working form my company, and I don't need an arrogant comming here and calling me names because I disagree with him, I felt insulted.

But, he didn't stoped in that point.



Then.. because people disagree again with him, he call them "hobby hosting companies".

Should I explain more?
ummm... No. I've read the entire thread, and I just read that part again. Still, I see no personal insults to you or anyone else in there; and see nothing wrong with what he said. I say it again... It was merely his opinions and suggestions. I think you're too touchy and sensitive about this Jedito. I seriously doubt if it was meant to insult anyone.

Am I the only one who thinks that phones are scary?
They're evil...

I love my e-mail! :D

Originally posted by chrisb

ummm... No. I've read the entire thread, and I just read that part again. Still, I see no personal insults to you or anyone else in there; and see nothing wrong with what he said. I say it again... It was merely his opinions and suggestions. I think you're too touchy and sensitive about this Jedito. I seriously doubt if it was meant to insult anyone.

Ok, this is the last time that I'll try to explain why I felt insulted, and why its not only his opinion.



I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself

Based in what can he call us resellers? ohh I see.. based in that we disagree with him, very intelligent.


I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers

Same thing, it doesn't worth to explain.


I hope all of the 'hobby' hosting companies do well

Now, because people doesn't think or do not manage their bussines like him are "hoby hosting companies".. ohh.. yes.. very deep argument.

Now, you tell me that I'm too sensitive and touchy about this. Of course that I am, this bussines is my food income, some people depend of how my bussines go to get food on his table. As I said, I work VERY hard to my company, and his baseless arguments saying that I'm reseller or that I do manage my company as a "hobby hosting company" its insulting.

I want to ask you, how would you feel if somebody call you in the same way in your job (I don't know which is it.).

Would you take it impersonal?

Jorge just ignore them, they are jealous - they are not worth your time..

:angry:

Stay away from Cyberwings...It is a terrible hosting company. They have lied for the past 2 weeks about getting servers online. Their upstream providers have emailed members about CW not paying their bills. Check out the Cyberwings logos on the othe rpart of this board....

Chris

Just curious did you ever sign up for that reseller account you were looking for?

What does cyberwing have to do with this thread?

And this is the last time I'll try and explain, as I don't think you'll change your mind, but...
I think most of you that disagree with providing phone support - is because you are a reseller & do not provide phone support yourself
Based in what can he call us resellers? ohh I see.. based in that we disagree with him, very intelligent.

What's wrong with that! Right or wrong, that was his OPINION in general, and it was not specifically aimed at you.


I think most of you that disagree that your servers should be in the YOUR country are overseas resellers
Same thing, it doesn't worth to explain.
Ditto, above.

I hope all of the 'hobby' hosting companies do well

And this one you took out of context.

Nothing personal, Jedito, but I think you are over-reacting. Joe (Intraweb) even used the phrase "I think" which further indicates that he could be right or wrong, so I don't understand how anyone would take umbrage to any of what he stated.

Now, let's get back to discussing 1-3, shall we? ;)

NO. You're wrong. Joe's wrong. The whole durned hosting system is wrong!

I'm going to bed. :cartman:

Originally posted by chrisb
And this is the last time I'll try and explain, as I don't think you'll change your mind, but...


You're right :)


is because you are a reseller


That's not an opinion.

Oh well, maybe we'll agree on the next thread, though I have my doubts. :)

I do think SWR summed it up nicely though. ...LOL

Originally posted by intraweb
I would avoid any host that meets any of these situations:

1. Does not offer phone support of any kind
This is unacceptable.

2. Offers payment ONLY with PayPal.
They have a good chance of not being around very long.

3. Is not based in the country where there servers are located.
make sure they have servers in THERE own country.


The above are very short-sighted, immature, and bigoted points.

This person found himself in a situaton where he went with a host that did not meet his support expectations and/or requirements.

If reliability and instant response by on-site support staff were so important, why didn't he pick a host such as RackSpace or Ventures Online that have a documented record of excellence when it comes to performance, reliability and support? Why didn't he follow his own advice before the fact? Because he was too cheap or because he was too inexperienced?

So, instead of dispensing "advice", he needs to do a re-evaluation of his needs and realize that visions of grandeur are not built with peanuts.

And BTW, all of the above are just my opinion.

Jorge, give up, some people will not get your point even if you write it in 10" letters. :(
Even when we quoted his own words to show that he was insulting some don't get it. :confused: