Well, this is my first time in the lounge, but here goes :D

I'm teaching a bunch of inner-city tenth graders about the internet and web design. I've got a roomful of computers with FrontPage and a T1 line. I figure FrontPage is easier and less frustrating to teach to n00bies (I don't use it myself, but hey...).

I'm 25, and normally I would think a bunch of 15-year-olds would kick my ass in the computer world :stickout , but I'm told this group has basic Windows skills and little else, and I guess few of them have a home comptuer.

So, should I sign them up for a little free space on my own server (subdomains of course)? Or should I direct them to some free hosting site? I just visited AngelFire and was shocked/appalled at their front page :eek: and it looks like you can't upload FP to a Geocities account.

Ideas?

And I'll take suggestions from anyone who has interesting ideas to teach kids. I've got nine hours to fill up here :)

use your own space with subdomains... it will give them a better understanding of everything involved if your going to go through all the steps inclufing ftp'ing the pages and all that.

frontpage should be perfect for them to learn on because all they have to know if how to use the mouse and draw. that's pretty much it.

good luck.

I strongly disagree with Frontpage, and having people learn from Frontpage is not a great idea. Frontpage doesnt allow for creativity and individualism. I would suggest teaching these kids how to code HTML. Show them easy things like HTML tags and image inserts.

Just my opinion :)

Jim

Teaching students with Office software is a waste of time, there are many courses, classes geared towards it, although I don't expect many of them to focus on front page all that much, I think its a waste of time.

Teach them to learn html first, and make sure they understand organization, using the keyboard and mouse for shortcuts, and other usability aspects first.

Once you are confident you have them understanding that to learn they must do, and to do they must understand how to do.

GIve them that, and they will dig themselves a bit which makes your job a great deal easier.

Start with the very basic concepts.

If you got FrontPage on those computers then you must have Microsoft Word loaded on those hard drives. I suggest you start with MS Word. They have web page templates which could be fairly basic. Start with hyoerlinks, fonts and colors,
And if by some chance a few have computers at home or at the library with MS Word, they could practice. MS Word has a decent HTML editor also.

I would start from scratch and using notepad. Have the kids learn the basic and then introduce frontpage after the understand the concept of markup language. This will give them a sense of how to create a page and the code that produces a site.

For example show the markup language and then start off by explaing the title tag, head tag, meta tag ( not nessasary ), body properties, bold, italics, font sizes including h1 and so forth, how to create links and insert images. That should fill up an entire class just learning that. Good luck.

Originally posted by jimb
I strongly disagree with Frontpage, and having people learn from Frontpage is not a great idea. Frontpage doesnt allow for creativity and individualism. I would suggest teaching these kids how to code HTML. Show them easy things like HTML tags and image inserts.


Spot on! I think it's better for the web developer community if you instill fundamental basic of html coding rather than straight to using wysywig editors. wysywig can be learned quicker if they know/familiar with their codes.

Guys :D .... I have 3 x 3 hour sessions with kids with a limited attention span. I am a Notepad user myself, and to be honest I've never used FrontPage (I'm assuming that since I have a brain I can learn it in about 3 minutes).

But I've got to get them looking at pages right away. And this is just a little summer thing built into one of those bring-the-city-kids-to-the-country-and-have-them-milk-cows things. They didn't sign up specifically to learn web page authoring, and so I can't see myself standing up there telling them about tags and tables and target blanks and hexadecimal codes.

So actually, the FrontPage thing, lame as it sounds, is not something I'm prepared to reconsider.

HOWEVER I've got to get these kids some real web space they can fool around in. I don't want to get them dependent on me; I want them to feel like they can get a webpage up any old time they like. So does anyone know any free hosts that have FrontPage extensions? And don't tell me about free, either, these kids are quite poor and most don't have PCs, so I think free with crappy uptime and no support and little space and ads will do just fine.

I hear what you're saying about FP being lame and limited and not teaching them the real thing, and I agree, but frankly a limited page builder fits right in with limited time and limited attention, you see what I mean? :)

The method I suggest was the way my teacher taught us in hs. I mean it was years ago but FP was around. FP isnt the way to learn and to get them looking at the pages quickly all you do is tell them to open a browser and keep notepad open saving and making changes. They can preview their changes by switching back to the browser. Simple and it will make you look better than using some lame ass program like FP.

But was this like a whole semester? I've got three days.

I know the browser will show the results immediately, but don't you think FrontPage will allow them to do things more quickly? I mean, the first few weeks after I learned HTML I made the crappiest sites in the world, but I don't have a few weeks to pull them through that slump.

So -- what do others think? Should I teach a class that has basic (and no more) computer skills how to hand-code in three days?

For such a short time, you only get somewhere with something simple like FP...

I learned to hand code that very day and with a sheet with the codes on it you can allow your kids to experiment and possibly award the best student with the best page in the three days. I dunno make it challenging for them to learn and make them want to learn.

Someone who feels my pain. I teach kids at a daycare how to operate computers, and basically the difference between a CD & floppy. Its tough at times, you just have to find out how to connect with them. They are young, they need to be doing something at all times, or they will loose interest. My only advice, is to just keep pushing things at them to keep them interested, staying on the same topic will bore them.

Candy, beer and or breaks would have kept me interested in school! ;-) Maybe run a quality film by Ron Jeremy or by Vivid and I'm sure you will keep the male students in line. :D

DO NOT USE FRONTPAGE. It's just wrong on so many levels. First, teach standards and how to actually code. You only have three days, but let it be worth something. Throwing it away on Frontpage is a waste of time and something they can do at home. Second, I've take courses like this, where they promise to teach webdesign and you get a "This is a mouse and this is how to open a file" ****. It's demeaning, people who know stuff will tune out, and nobody will learn anything. Third, teach standards. Fourth, let them actually learn how to code pages, not use WYSIWYG. Fifth, teach standards. Sixth, teach how to actually code, not use WYSIWYG.

If you want help developing a lesson plan, try signing up at Webdesign-L «http://www.webdesign-l.com». It's a wonderful mailing list with top professionals and 1700 members who can help you develop a lesson plan if you need it.

Nice post dogma. Very helpful.

I'm going to take the other side of the arguement here, and actually suggest Frontpage. Rest assured I agree with everyone here that FP is the devil's tool as far as making webpages go, and we'd all agree that our support tickets would be lower had it never been invented, but she has three days...

In three days, using FP you could develop a keen interest in these kids to go ahead and learn some real design/development. Given the makeup of the class (I know the kind of project this is in regard to having city kids milk cows etc), one of the main purposes of it is to expose people to new ideas without trying to force any real education into them.

Most people who start with Frontpage do end up moving on to better products (like notepad) :D If they get a website online showing the world their name blinking in inch high letters, a few animated scroll bars, and a background that resembles a traffic accident, they'll be proud as punch. As time goes on, they may retain that interest long after the 3 day course is done, and start looking at better ways of doing things.

At 15, if they're not online already these days it usually indicates they're either not too interested, or don't have the financial ability to own a computer with net access. I'm not sure that droning a hello world type of html dictaion through notepad will do much for them. If they were there *just* to learn html them sure... maybe.

Greg Moore

Here's the thing: being as how you have a limited time....
Create the pages in MS front page...

Most of the stuff you are going to do wont require front page extensions... You know ... this is me this is my dog or whatever....

straight point and click type of deal... Once the page is saved Upload it with an FTP client WsFTP Le is free.... the page can than be moved anywhere and no ned to worry about the extensions.


my two cents

Mike, do you know exactly what needs FrontPage extensions and what doesn't? As I mentioned, I've never used it, not once.

I would rather teach them to upload with WS_FTP if I could.

Greg, you've made a lot of sense :D

Dogma, I appreciate the comments, but you said I would lose the kids who knew stuff. As I pointed out several times, none of my kids will know anything beyond maybe mouse usage and two-finger typing. I'm not going to bore anyone except those who have absolutely zero interest in computers -- and frankly, FrontPage will be more exciting to those kids, so at least I'll probably keep everyone's interest.

I learned most of HTML in a day too, but I specifically wanted to and had an interest. Some of these kids will have an interest, but not much of a background. Others will have to be encouraged to like it.

I'm hoping for a whole class to be beaming with scanned pictures of their best friend or favorite rap star, six animated gifs, a tie-dye tiled background, and a header 1 marquee title. It's going to be awful, and hopefully they'll love it. :D

As many are apparently not too experienced with the internet in general, I was thinking of leading a discussion on what they think the internet is and what's so great about it. Hopefully they'll come up with reaons on their own, like you can connect with anyone in the world and there's no censorship (that's a discussion on its own).

Then I want to make sure everyone has an e-mail address, and get those who don't signed up with hotmail or yahoo. And then make sure they know how to navigate. Maybe I'll send them on an internet treasure hunt ("who was the first president of Indonesia?").

Then start right in on FrontPage. This is really basic stuff, but for a good reason. It's a confidence-building week for them, and they have me in the morning before they go out and hike the mountain nearby and visit our museums and waterfalls.

Thanks, everyone, for your input!

Well, I know the mouseover buttons require the front page extentions. I'm not sure on anything else though, that might actually be it.

As for my recommendation, I recommend using Frontpage. With Notepad they'll prolly get bored, start typing dirty words into the thing and just give up, and then the all hell will break lose with the rest of the class.

Well now I have to go to work, so when I come back I'll finish what I was saying...

Originally posted by inogenius
Well, I know the mouseover buttons require the front page extentions. I'm not sure on anything else though, that might actually be it.

You don't have to use frontpage extensions in frontpage. In fact ,javascript mouseovers are much better and more economic.

Although I hate Frontpage and would never use it, I would suggest it if you were teaching kids who don't know much about the Internet, especially if it wasn't very long-term.

Have them use 1st Page - http://www.evrsoft.com/download/
Instead of FrontPage... why, well the only reason (aside from frontpage being every hosts nightmare)... is that these kids if they do have a computer at home, probably won't have or be able to afford FrontPage. So... do them a favor and teach them how to code a site in something that is free, easy to use.. provides some cool dhtml scripts that will keep them entertained, etc. :)

I fully agree with Elena, in fact she beat me to the punch. I would recommend 1st page, http://www.evrsoft.com/, as it is free, it allows you to code in an editor and view your results and if you need, WYSIWYG editor. But it does not force you to use the WYSIWYG editor and works wonders for just coding raw code and viewing your results instantly. The best thing is, if these kids are serious about dabling into HTML afterwards and they most likely do not have the cash to purchase FP you save them alot of money using 1st page as it is free and they would all ready be familiar with it. I started out with FP, :( I knew no better but have you seen what FP does with HTML? There should be a law against butchering HTML the way FP does!
Not only is it free, but it comes with HTML reference, 4 modes of operation so they can advance easily, has a nice "Teach me HTML", hints and tips section, and already made templates so they can view and learn. I am a very hands-on type of person and that is how I learned by viewing the source of all the pages I visited.

I have used 1st page personally but currently do not use it, but I do keep a copy around :)

Elena,

Front PAge extensions:

Search form
Hit counter
Discussions
Form handler and confirmation fields

Most of the tools options from the main menus.

Mostly, if you just do drag and drop change, font settings and general page properties you should be ok.

Altho I agree with everyone saying Teach Html, in the short period of time you have it really is'nt feasible. If these kids express an intrest in learning more.. then give them the time or tools... stress through-out the course that MS front page is a quick way to create pages, but if you want to be good at it.. then learn the code... leave the rest up to them...


My two cents...

I still do not think FP is the answer, if he is teaching kids html but yet has limited time and resources plus the kids them selves have limited resources then why in the world pick an html editor that is $150 to buy when y ou have 1st page that IMO is better then FP, does html cleaner, and is not WYSIWYG (I downloaded it again last night and checked it out it is editor with nice options to right click tags and edit the options of each tag). Best of both worlds, they can create and watch their creation come alive instantly YET get the full benefit of learning the code itself PLUS they all can get a copy free and use at their own homes.

I see only a Win-Win situation here.

Well... if i remember correctly.. the software is already there....
These are Kids with Limited computer experiance, and will not understand first page or notepad or what ever....

The argument about the cost was quite compelling, and I hadn't thought of it before :o

So... y'all have officially changed my mind. I'll be rewriting my lesson plan for notepad/WS_FTP lessons. Wish me luck!!!! :D

Good you went the right way. I learned how to code html using notepad and was hooked using that method as it shows you that for each line of code you write it actually does something! Good luck with your class and hopefully the kids will get a lot out of it.

I learned HTML by using Front Page 97... :rolleyes:

I learned using 1st page and it works exactly like notepad, sorry I just have no reason to use a computer for notepad... I have pen and pencil for that :P

But I am a hands-on type of person, I need to see instantly what my code is doing, yes I code everything by hand the long way still but 1st page will allow you to use some great help and allow you to instantly see your affects.
Just my opinion Millage will vary

That's what's great about Windows ... NotePad and Browser can run simultaneously :D

Definitely not HTML on notepad!

1) It will appear like lots of typeing to do only too little.
2) They need to understand the syntax (tags, attributes, qoutes, entities ..)
3) They need to understand many concepts like relative and absolute paths and why images must be put outside, and how can they be referenced inside the document.

If I was going to give a class about web-design, I would start from the most basic things like TCP connections and the HTTP protocol, but that will take much more than 3 days to understand and practice.