Hi all.

Last night I was doing a simple search on Alta Vista for a celebrity and came upon this site which linked to thousands of adult 'Quality Paysites'.

I found a link to Teen sites. When I entered the link there were like a hundred sites devoted to Lolita sites. I clicked on one of the links - can't remember which one - and the site had on its tourpages naked children from the ages of, as stated, 6-16 year olds. I checked out a few more and then couldn't continue any further as these sites just showed naked children. I then went into a whois site and checked who owned these sites. Most of them belonged to Dutch, Bulgarian and Danish webmasters.

I just want to know who the hell hosts these sites and can anything be done to stop them. The creditcard processors were someone called TrustBilling or something.

And then there was this bulls**t about the legal information page which stated that the images are not intended for porn and that these images and sites are allowed according to US Laws because the parents of the children allowed the photos to be taken.

I won't state the site, unless someone wants me to. I just want to know is there anyway in which the hosts who host these sites can be STOPPED and who are these hosts.

Cheers - DAV.:mad:

Run a whois search on the domain names (I like NitWit Solution's because they tend to be more complete than others):

http://www.netsol.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois

Check out the nameservers and you'll see who it's hosted to (sometimes you have to run a whois on the nameservers themselves).

do a whois on the domain names, and then get the name servers.

then enter the name servers in ARIN (www.arin.net) and get who owns the IP block.. that will get you in the right direction.


you can also enter the nameserver in the whois database as like this

server blah.foo.com


and it should give you more information.

unfort. this is a boon for alot of dedicated providers, as a customer will buy a machine from us, then sell accounts to resellers, then sell accounts to individuals, and it makes it impossible to keep track of what kind of sites are on your network....

child pronography makes me sick.... :(

All hosts can do is when thier notified tell the customer to remove that site. Different hosts have different policys, but reagrding child pronography and spam we have a 0 tolerance poilicy if its not removed within a day your out of here. Theres no excuse for it.

In some countries (including my own home country of Canada, I am ashamed to say) pictures and descriptions of child nudity are legal as long as it can be determined that they are of "an artistic nature". There was a case in British Columbia recently where a man who belonged to NAMBLA (for those who don't know, NAMBLA stands for the North American Man-Boy Love Association, a group whose purpose is to promote the physical intimacy between grown men and male children) who had such pictures (517 of them) and descriptions seized from his house got sentenced to 4 months of house arrest between the hours of 4 PM and 8 AM Pacific Standard Time (which, when one considers the likelihood that the man will likely be asleep for 8 or more of those hours, amounts to an 8-hour-a-day stay-at-home sentence.) The reason he didn't get anything worse (like the jail time or perhaps the chemical castration he should have gotten) was because it was "artistic" and by Canadian law, "artistic" stories and written descriptions of things are completely legal as long as they don't advocate what they are describing. In some cases, the photographs themselves can be considered "artistic" too. Full details can be found here:

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/05/02/sharpe020502

Depending on the country or region in which the site is hosted, the content may be legal on these same artistic grounds as well. However, I would still do a WHOIS on the host and perhaps the solution would be to post the links of the hosts that cater to such garbage in a public forum such as this and arranging boycotts of said hosts. If we all work together and pull any sites that we have from these hosts and encourage others to do the same, then perhaps the hosts themselves will be forced to remove the sites from their servers or go down as businesses.

You should really give the host a chance to do something about the problem before you go blacklisting them. They may not be aware of the situation.

I 100% agree with you cbaker17. If ANYONE on my server was to host child pornography and I was made aware of it, I would suspend their account and contact the police. Those kids would NOT give permission - and I doubt their parents would either - not to mention it is damn right sick!

James

And then there was this bulls**t about the legal information page which stated that the images are not intended for porn and that these images and sites are allowed according to US Laws because the parents of the children allowed the photos to be taken
That is a lie! I know for fact, (friends in photo developement) that if a photo developer sees any pics of children (persons obviously under the age of 18) in a comprimised postion, he/she can and will report them. When the pics are ready to be picked up, the police are waiting in the wings to arrest the creeps.
One case that made the media was a guy who took one of those "naked baby laying on it's tummy" pics of his child and was arrested when he went to pick up his pics.

IMO porn consisting of, intended for, and viewed by, consenting adults is OK (but not on my sites) but any deviant or child porn simply attracts the seemy side of humanity, and is just sick!
(Don't tell me, I already know that what is considered to be deviant for one, may not seem deviant to another)

WildWayz you better check out spawnos account ;)

On a serious note it's disgusting in my opinion and I would ban a user then let them explain.

lol Terry - Spawno is a good lad (for those who do not know, I know Terry and 'Spawno' so I know he is joking about).

ATST - wasn't there a case in a UK where a celebrity had some pictures taken of their baby in a bath, and some photo developer handed the pictures to the police? They were innocent pics - but their names were dragged up in the media.

James

Apologies as the joke may be taken out of context by some.

Well we do hear a lot about Gary Glitter and the child material. I remember on the news a few weeks back that something like 10 police forces from Bulgaria or somewhere to the US got a whole ring of these internet sickos. What makes me sick is that apparantly someone hosted the forum they used where they rated the 'quality' of the material by each member getting stars. :angry: Makes me sick!

Originally posted by The Laughing Cow
WildWayz you better check out spawnos account ;)

On a serious note it's disgusting in my opinion and I would ban a user then let them explain.

Personally, I wouldn't let them explain. If I caught a client who used his space to archive child pornography -- I would terminate his account, give him no refund, and call the police. Maybe in a business sense doing that isn't the best option -- but morally, I would feel obligated.


BTW -- :puke: NAMBLA is real? I thought that was a fictional organization made up in that South Park episode...

NAMBLA is very, very real, sadly.

Originally posted by TheGAME1264
NAMBLA is very, very real, sadly.

Oh wow. I think I'm going to be sick. :unhappy:

Originally posted by FDrive

BTW -- :puke: NAMBLA is real? I thought that was a fictional organization made up in that South Park episode...

Sorry if this is off-topic, but the NAMBLA in South Park is the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes. That is how it was used in the show itself.

Just wanted to clear things up :)

Originally posted by GetDrawn


Sorry if this is off-topic, but the NAMBLA in South Park is the National Association of Marlon Brando Look-Alikes. That is how it was used in the show itself.

Just wanted to clear things up :)


No, there were two NAMBLA's in that episode -- the real NAMBLA, and the Marlon Brando look-alikes... Cartman accidentally got signed up with the wrong one

personally i say follow heretic's advise and take the proper steps to find the host and then alert them. Let the host take care of it as they should.

If for some sick reason the host wont deal with the situation then contact your local fbi office and let them deal with it.

To clear things up even more, the whole joke in that South Park episode is the confusion between the two different organizations using the acronym NAMBLA -- their fictional "Marlin Brando Look Alikes," and the real-life "Man-Boy Love Association." If the real group didn't exist, neither would the joke.


On-topic to the thread, without seeing the specific sites (and I don't want to; don't mistake this for a request for the links) it's hard to say but most such sites actually aren't illegal. In most cases the pictures are in and of themselves not "erotic" or "sexual," they are just, from a legal standpoint, pictures of kids. Some are somewhat revealing, but in most cases they aren't explicit -- which would be required before they'd violate the law.

The problem is that these pictures that to most of us would bring no more reaction than maybe "yeah, cute kid" if shown to us by a parent, when seen in a different context by a different group of people bring a different reaction.

So there's probably nothing that can be done legally to force a company not to host them. On the other hand, hosts usually reserve for themselves the right to not host any site they choose not to host. If it were me, I wouldn't provide service to any site that's serving that market, "legal" or not.

even worse is the 10 or so spam mails i get a day advertising horribly gross child porn sites. i'm not talking the teen whatever whatever. small children.

i feel sick to my stomach even thinking about those emails.

For me, it is immediate termination of the account...and if it is under a reseller, he is contacted immediately and warned a reoccurence will lead to termination of his account. I also having found one under a reseller, check out all his accounts to see the nature of the business he is conducting. If I find other offending accounts which are outside my tos, then I immediately suspend the reseller, terminate all violating accounts and give the reseller 24 hours to get his act together.

I have no tolerance for such as this-plain, simple.

Originally posted by skylab
even worse is the 10 or so spam mails i get a day advertising horribly gross child porn sites. i'm not talking the teen whatever whatever. small children.

i feel sick to my stomach even thinking about those emails.
somebody obiously got pissed off at you :D

Where do people draw the line at what constitutes child porn though?

If you hosted a small personal site that had a page about a couples new baby, which happened to include some of it naked in the bath would you ask the customer to remove it for fear of being accused of holding childporn?

How would you determin that this isn't a cover for a peadophilic ring?

I don't know much about the laws covering this area but would this even be seen as illegal?

it unfortunately comes with running a website that has around 8,000 users, where your system sends out emails for many different things. you get on the worst spam lists thanks to end users.



Originally posted by Andrew Bell

somebody obiously got pissed off at you :D

I am not condoning, nor am I not condoning child pornography, but I have trouble understanding one thing...what makes pornography of underage teens, let's say 15-16, any more "sick" than pornography of adults? Please don't mention legality because legality does not constitute morality. I just have trouble understanding why age makes a difference between sick and acceptable in this society. Please don't take my post the wrong way or try to read between the lines. I just don't get it, so I'm asking from a "sociologist" point of view. I just noticed that the words "child pornography" tend to push some people's buttons, and I just want to know why.

Because it is the exploitation of people that neither have the ability to understand, and in most cases are forced.

Child pornography follows the lines of rape in that the child does not know what is going or does not have the control or the understanding of how to stop it.

Because even though a 15 or 16 year old may have a body that looks adult, they do not have the maturity of an adult. There are exceptions, teenagers who are very mature and adults who are very immature, but both in a moral sense and in a legal sense you have to deal with the norm.

It is not hard to understand how a 15 or 16 year old can be attracted to an older person for many reasons. It is very hard to understand why an adult would be attracted to a 15 or 16 year old for any other reason than sex, and if the only real attraction is sexual then the 15 or 16 year old SHOULD be protected from the (so called) adult.

Okay, I understand Samuel's point, but the ability to understand only applies to younger children, and being forced applies to any age because nobody should be forced to commit a sexual act no matter how old they are.

As for Hiccups' point, I don't see what mental maturity has to do with sexual maturity. I understand the legal aspect, since the child is still in the parent's custody, but why couldn't there be consent forms? From the moral aspect, I don't just don't see it in that case.

Some consider a 20 year old attracted to a 14 year old sick, but there's quite a difference between sexual attraction, physical attraction, and mental attraction, but you're right, if the only attraction is sexual, then it's no different from a predator looking for prey, but there's also a difference between thinking and acting.

Kudos to Dav who's taking action and the hosts in this thread who have integrity and brains. You have our respect. May your business prosper for a long long time to come.

As for the site in question, please

1. Contact the host AND report it to the FBI and the State Attorney General. This site is a criminal operation that must be investigated even if the host terminates the account, otherwise they would simply move to another host.

Remind the host to preserve a backup copy and turn it over as evidence.

2. Please also report it to http://WiredPatrol.org . A team of volunteer lawyers and law enforcement will follow up on this matter.

If the host is intentionally involved in the operation of this site: post it on the web, tell ALL your associates, friends, and acquaintances about this host's practice. Any human being with even the least decency would refuse to do business with a host that knowingly shelters such materials.

If only everyone would do his part and stop making excuses.

Gosh, if you think they are sick, you should see what they have on forums and private MLs.

I was looking for some anime info when I clicked this link, and I got this HUGE amount of unending pop-ups showing nothing but links to signup for Lolita porn/bestility, MLs to discuss them, public forums and even chat rooms. And the images - URGHH!! :eek:

But if you're talking about the hosts, they might not be aware of the problem, so it'll be best if you contact them and give them about 3 days to get something done. If nothing happens, file a report with the FBI!

Child porn - it's even sicker than bestility... :angry:

The sexual exploitation of children is disgusting, and any evidence of such should be reported to the appropriate legal authorities. (If you have control over the server, take care to immediately secure the evidence -- before calling the police -- since law enforcement agencies have demonstrated on many occasions that they have trouble with collecting electronic evidence.)

But someone who is 15 years old is not a child. Physical maturity arrives in most cases between the ages of 10 and 13 throughout the western world (a couple years earlier than in the past, largely due to improved nutrition). As for emotional and mental maturity, well, many people never achieve those.

I've mentioned this before, but it's worth saying again: One of the most mature people I know is 16. She is five years younger than me, but I'd trust her judgement over my own any day (except in technical fields, of course). If she decided that she wanted to become a porn star, I would be no more worried that she was being "taken advantage of" or "exploited" than if she were 30.

Personally, I think that laws on child pornography and statutory rape (and non-reproductive incest, for that matter) should be repealed -- because they are completely unnecessary. In the vast majority of cases, the offenses are already covered by laws against assult, kidnapping, forcible confinement, sexual assult, issuing threats, manslaughter, murder, or obstruction of justice.

Originally posted by cperciva

someone who is 15 years old is not a child. One of the most mature people I know is 16. She is five years younger than me, but I'd trust her judgement over my own any day.


You, who admittedly can't make better judgement than a 16-year-old, are making the judgement for all that a 15-year-old is not a child?

Originally posted by cperciva

If she decided that she wanted to become a porn star, I would be no more worried that she was being "taken advantage of" or "exploited" than if she were 30.


Sure you're not worried. Her parents, who raise and care about her, should be worried.

Originally posted by cperciva

I think that laws on child pornography and statutory rape (and non-reproductive incest, for that matter) should be repealed


There must be such laws in place. There must be an enforceable standard and a consistent definition of legal age across all areas of law. "You" think it's perfectly OK to have sex with a 15-year-old child. Those sickos also think it's perfectly OK to have sex with a 10-year-old child. Everybody can sit here debating forever playing philosophers while someone's children are being raped over and over.

I think you took that out of context. The person did not state that it was OK to rape children.
I too, some times wonder if the laws we have are already good enough, and the reason we make these additional specialized laws is to simply statisfy the general public into thinking the govt. is ferverently working on our behalf.
Examples:
- More gun laws. We already have tons of gun laws, but lawyers, get the criminals out of jail faster than our law enforcement can get them off the streets. Soon, only the criminals will posses guns.
- Racial hate crimes. Not to be confused with self defense, murder is murder and it is against the law. It is not worse to kill one peticular person over another, and really none of our business to judge what kind of person the victim is. Black, jewish, white or gay, dead is dead, and murder is still murder the last time I checked. Soon, people deemed insignificant, will not count if they are murdered.

On that note, any forced sexual act to any person of any age is terrible as well as unlawful. It is our general thinking that a phsyical adult who may or may not have had sex before can deal with it better. This is not the case. In fact it isn't even about sex at that point. The difference is that a mentally healthy adult victim can speak up for themselves better and possibly stop further abuse. However, most preditors look for certain traits in their victims, hence children (or mentally incapacitated adults) are the most commonly victimised by these creeps. And that is what is so apalling. They try to hide their sadistic desires under the guise of sex. They are twisted, miswired, and evil in its truest form.
Is it any wonder an astoundingly high percentage of sexual preditors can not be rehabilitated? Sex is not rape. Sex is not forced. and Sex is not sex with children, unwilling, or mentally disabled persons.
I do think that sexually explicit material does not belong on the internet, because it is too hard to ensure that 1) Only adults can access it. and 2) That it is only adult consentual sex, and not just creeps calling it sex to cover up their sickness. I don't want to study the activity and make that judgement.

You're trolling, but I'll respond anyway.

Originally posted by Equity
You, who admittedly can't make better judgement than a 16-year-old, are making the judgement for all that a 15-year-old is not a child?

My judgement is far better than that of most 16 year olds; her judgement is likewise better. But the fact that 15 year olds are not children is not a matter of judgement -- that is a matter of scientific (biologic) fact.

Sure you're not worried. Her parents, who raise and care about her, should be worried.

You assume that parents always care about their children. Unfortunately, that is not always the case.

Everybody can sit here debating forever playing philosophers while someone's children are being raped over and over.

We don't need extra laws to deal with the rape of children. We already have laws which deal with all sorts of rape. And if you're going to argue that the rape of a child is worse than any other example of rape, I think the victims would likely disagree with you.

Is it any wonder there is such confusion in our society over this? I've seen this topic crop up on forum after forum and it always degenerates into the same name-calling, backbiting, trolling and flaming. It is a subject that nobody will ever agree on, particularly in the US, where we equate nudity with sex.

There are a few unalterable facts that bear on this.

FACT: Up until the late 1800's, it was considered perfectly acceptable to exploit children, both as workers and sexually.

FACT: Although society has changed it's attitudes toward that sort of behavior, people have not changed. There are still people who seek out children for sexual gratification, and abuse them. Around here in the Boston area, we call them priests.

FACT: A recent study showed that most explicitly sexual child pornography is the same stuff that's been going around for decades, it's just been scanned and is now available electronically. Very little of that is actually new.

FACT: Nude non-sexual pictures of children (such as the baby in a bathtub,etc.) are not child pornography. Neither are the very sexy pictures of underage fashion models we see in every major women's magazine.

However, get a guy who finds babies, children, or adolescent girls arousing, and suddenly those images change from "how cute" or "I have to buy that jacket" to become sexually stimulating materials (aka pornography), not because of the content, or the intent of the photographer, but in the mind of the person viewing them.

Something to think about.

Two children are playing Doctor. Mommy thinks that's cute and takes a picture to put in the family album until one of the kids brings home a date, right next to the picture of his first solid bowel movement.

Is that child porn?

And what about those adolescent males and their webcams that you find in a lot of Yahoo chatrooms?

Is that child porn?

A guy picks up an art book with pictures of nudes in it including some children, and takes it home to, you know...

Is that child porn?

ATST,

Your points are relevant and coherent, so I'd like to address them :

Originally posted by ATST

I think you took that out of context. The person did not state that it was OK to rape children.


I think you took mine completely out of context. I stated such laws were indeed needed to provide clarity and consistency, otherwise we would all sit here debating endlessly over different philisophies while nothing constructive could be done to stop the fact that children are being raped and sold.

In business we wouldn't enter into contracts with a 15-year-old because he/she is a child, but when it comes to our own sexual pleasure we try so hard to convince ourselves a 15-year-old is an adult.

Do you think those pedophiles are some illiterate bums hiding in basements plotting their next prey? No, most of them are in fact highly educated, sophisticated, and well-to-do fellas who sincerely and honestly believe it is OK to have sex with children. They are capable of delivering an intelligent speech any time of the day to justify their criminal acts. They know the law perfectly well and are experts in arguing endlessly each and every child they've raped did consent.

Give them enough time they have the resources and sophistication it takes to twist any facts and beat those over-worked under-paid State prosecutors.

One thing that frustrates us the most is seeing a criminal set free in court on mere technicality. We can sit here and blame it on everybody else in the society each time it happens, or take whatever insignificant steps "we" can to make that one tiny bit of difference. The next child saved by your humble efforts could very well turn out to be someone related to you.

You're right. The laws are not perfect and they never will. They are only made by "us" - a bunch of imperfect human beings. But instead of tearing down anything imperfect (which would mean "everything"), we can build and improve.

This is for those pornographers!
__________________________
Romans Ch1 from:24.

24: Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26: For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29: Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30: Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31: Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

This is their FATE!!!

At what age are you an Adult? 21 or 18 ( or some other age)?

I think in America the age is 21 (well you cant have alcohol etc until you are 21).

Where as in Australia, when you turn 18 you are an adult (legally) - you can have alcohol, gamble etc....

Anyway probably going a bit off topic, but for anyone that is interested - the age of consent around the world:
http://www.ageofconsent.com/ageofconsent.htm

I belive some clarity may need to be addressed with our exsiting laws to prevent the lawyers from tap dancing around them. I don't think new laws help. I think new laws create new loop holes.
A study was done on drinking and its statistics showed that most people were not being responable drinkers before the age of 21. I know you can vote, fight and die for our country for three years before you can drink, and I didn't like that law back when I was 18, but I lived with it.
When your activity gets in the taxpayers pockets, they do have a right to say what you can or can't do. It is better to have some "legal activies determined by age" than to allow exceptions, because that would put the public in postitions to judge the character of the person to whom an exemption may apply.
Sex can be dangerous when done by immature person not yet at an age where they can make intelligent decisions about it.
I am not judging these people, I am just going by statistics. Most babies born to parents under the age of 18 are supported by tax dollars, therefore, the taxpayers do have a say in it.
I don't care how mature a 16 year old is, if he/she is not married to a person old enough to work (18 in most cases) who can support a child, or can not support one him/her self, then he/she is not ready to be involved in an activity that will bring a new life into his/her dismal future.
What about new born babies rights? Do they not have the right to be brought into the world with two parents? Do they not have the right to be born without venerial deceases or addicted to drugs?
In this day and age humans are becomming physically mature and more intelligent at a younger age, but emotionally we still appear to grow at the same rate as before. So to protect the children, we have an age of consent.

We recently caught a server we had leased to a client with *child porn* related site(s), without any questions, the network cable was unplugged, the owner notified.

If, we start to crack down on the geeks, and they get the same treatment from other providers, then they'll know that theres nowhere for them to go, they will be isolated and then the autorities can do there business.

I will be reporting this individual to the authorities as we have had no response from him, therefore making him look more guilty then ever.

I'll let you know what procedures the authorities take against this person, so we all know what we need to do, and what to expect.

Imran