Seriously, whats with all the GSP-wannabee posts around here lately?

Game server hosting as a shared server is not an EMERGING TECH. Its a DYING TECH. Its so 2001.

Reasons:

1) broadband access more universal to the home - better upload, easier to run your own server ( <10 people )

2) Dedicated servers = CHEAP. Colo=EXPENSIVE. Why rent a server from company X when you can run 5 of your own on your own dedicated box? Does it take knowledge? Yes.. but any pimply-faced prepubescent teenager can run a game server on windows.. seriously.

3) PC gaming is dying (relative to console gaming). Consoles are all the rage these days - PC gamers started the revolution but arent sustaining it.

I ran a successful GSP for over 4 years, but I got out while there was still time :) Game server customers are the most demanding, needy, whiny, needing-hand-holding type there could possibly be. Plus, they are very time-sensitive and money-sensitive, especially when mommie grounds them and takes their server credit card payment away. Ugh.

So - to all the wannabees: Dont quit your day job (you should have a day job, BTW). If it makes you feel important to have cash-strapped teenagers bothering you all the time, go ahead and make a hobby of it. You aint gonna get rich though.

Part of what I do now involves developing and selling business software to corporations. I like to contrast this to my former life selling game servers. My customers now actually are MORE than willing to pay what I consider good money for my product, as it makes them money and makes their work better. In addition, I dont get support requests at 1am. They know enhancement requests will not be done in 24 hours. They actually have separate payments for support and enhancements - its not simply part of the 'deal'. Its about the polar opposite, and man.. life is so much better.

What was your company called?

I'd have to agree with alot of your post Innova my old friend. Most of today's game providers simply do not have the knowledge or skills needed to sustain a decent business hosting games. I believe there is still a market for shared hosting but only a handful of companies are making any kind of substantial $$ at it. Getting into this business now probably wouldn't be worth the time or effort.

Rich you make it sound like its totaly impossible to start a gaming business now because its too "late" well guess what you are wrong. If your company is old then thats good but let new companies give it a shot.

LOL at PC gaming is dying. Quit babbling about things you dont know.

It's not impossible by any means. That's not what I said.


viclopez, Innova ran one of the biggest GSP's in the world. I would consider his opinion of note.

While I do agree that it is an extremly challanging feld to "break into", it can also be a very profitable one. Yes by all means it does take ALONG time to get "established" and gain the gamers trust in your company as a reputable one.

There are very few companies that can even survive for 3 months. The market for specific titles of games is just plain rediculous. Take Americas Army for instance...My company is 1 of 14 that are able to sell the "Honor" servers, and with this title your simply not going to make money unless you do sell the honor servers. I wont even go into EA and how complicated it is to become Ranked. Again with EA titles your not going to make money unless you are ranked.

As far as this market "DYING"? No I would say its very "stable".

With dedicated server prices dropping every year it's more cost effective for clans to simply purchase their own server where they can run whatever they want rather then rent a server and be limited.

I think your going to find the market shift increase as the price drops continue on dedicated hosting and the newer games become more resource intensive.

Your always going to have the kids who simply don't want to deal with running their own machine but as mentioned above it's no where near as lucrative as it once was.

This is very interesting. I had an idea about breaking into, but I think it would take quite a while to get their trust. I would look at it as a option to add to your already established company, but not totaly rely on it as your source of income.

I have to agree totally with innova, I had a long talk with my friend Tony from aim2game yesturday about this same discussion here.

I do beleive PC Gaming is dieing slowly, gameserver providers will need to find a new avenue to turn to.. Some inside information for you guys is, aim2game a very well known gsp, and they are turning to providing colocations and dedicated servers as their main business. DONT GET ME WRONG, they will still be providing gameservers until the business is not in demand. Right now aim2game is super strong and almost full with their 400+ dedicated servers that have colo'd around the globe.

We'll have to wait and see what will happen, you never know. Web Hosting might die down the road too, it's loooking that way, how innova putt it Bandwidth for home broadband is getting larger and larger and faster and faster, soon everyone who has a website will be putting up their own linux/win box and hosting their own!

You hit the nail on the head. Being a successful GSP and staying successful is all about diversity and not many have made it by sticking to only game hosting as their primary means of income. We came to that conclusion 2 years ago when we saw there was more demand in offering gamers their own machines. In addition to this a nice portion of our personal sales come from hosting other GSP's on our equipment. The advantage to the GSP is they have professional game hosters to turn to for support. Most dedicated server providers cannot offer that..

i dont know i still see lots of posts online about bf2 and counterstrike...pc game hosting never really ends like console gaming does.

If PC Gaming is dying then I am George W. Bush.

Interesting to see where this thread has gone. I have a few comments but for the most part almost everyone is right on the money here.

This is very interesting. I had an idea about breaking into, but I think it would take quite a while to get their trust.

Its really not about trust - its about economics. You are dealing with a very price-sensitive, latency-sensitive crowd. That is what makes it difficult. Go ahead and add it to your offerings, but dont rely on game hosting as a moneymaker in itself - use it to drive sales of auxillery services (hosting, dedicated, voice, etc).

As far as 'dying' goes.. Let me rephrase. Its not DYING per-se, as the industry is withering. Rather, its just not growing like it was. You arent signing up completely new customers, you are borrowing/stealing them from competition. I say borrowing because unless you offer something more compelling than price alone, someone else will always be cheaper and they will jump ship after a few months.

I think your going to find the market shift increase as the price drops continue on dedicated hosting and the newer games become more resource intensive.

Absolutely. When I started out, seriously beefy hardware was seriously expensive. It literally took an incredible amount of resources to be able to provide these services, and that made the pricing what it was. We had a scarce resource (server power) and the concept of dedicated servers wasn't widespread.

Flash forward to today, when server power is a commodity like anything else. Combine that with the ever-increasing savvy of our internet-addicted youth and there isnt as much need for the expertise of the gaming host. I didnt say NO need, I said less need. Better these todays to cater to those who want to run their own show but have somewhere to turn for questions.

Web Hosting might die down the road too, it's loooking that way

Hard to say. Despite my fast broadband and tech savvy, I still pay for web hosting. Why? Lots of stuff to setup and maintain - ala the convenience factor. With a game server, you have ONE program to worry about.. with web, I have php, mysql, the extensions, apache, ssh, the OS itself, and whatever else. Plus, ISP's play tricks like blocking port 25 (as they maybe should), so to compete there you really still need a real connection (even if its only a VPS).

Thanks for sharing everyone.. interesting conversation.

Things sure have come a long way. I remember when places like Server Matrix first opened and everyone went crazy at the cheap prices they had. I'm talking about a P4 2.4ghz dedicated with 300GBs transfer that set you back $225+ per month and folks were buying them like hot cakes.

In some ways it's great prices came down as much as they did but in alot of ways it's ruined a good chunk of the hosting business since literally anyone can now rent a server, throw up a $20 template and call it a "business". A few years ago the end consumer had reasonable security knowing the "host" invested a good deal of $$ in their business and by virtue weren't going anywhere very quickly.. It's a whole different world now. The term "Buyer beware" should be a hosting catch phrase..

As far as 'dying' goes.. Let me rephrase. Its not DYING per-se, as the industry is withering. Rather, its just not growing like it was. You arent signing up completely new customers, you are borrowing/stealing them from competition. I say borrowing because unless you offer something more compelling than price alone, someone else will always be cheaper and they will jump ship after a few months.

Bingo. So true it is. Shame too, as there are still quite a few repuable/decent hosts suffering due to the here-1-month-gone-the-next upstarts.

I agree with some of things previous posters have said. As an avid PC gamer (Counter-Strike, Half-Life, Star Trek Legacy, Guild Wars..), I know the gaming industry is far from dead and is growing nicely. Right now I run 3 x CS 1.6 servers and 1 x DoD (non-Source) with an average monthly player count ~12,000 unique players, with more coming every month.

However, being in the GSP business for over 4 years, I see that unfortunately there is not too much of a market left in being a GSP.

Four years ago, anyone could become a GSP and become one of the biggest out there. There was so much demand placed on the market, especially because of the popularity of Counter-Strike (and it's still growing!). All anyone hosted was Counter-Strike. Those were the glory days.

Unfortunately, once competitors started to host servers at very cheap prices for crappy servers, the market started to go bad.

Then came EA with Battlefield 1942. Another spike in the GSP business. Tons and tons of BF servers sprung up, but unfortunately, the popularity soon plummeted. Same went for BF: Vietnam. Then EA had a <sarcasm> bright idea </sarcasm> and released BF2, but this time with a ranked server system. While the rank stats were a great idea, the implementation was horrible. Only select GSP's could host ranked servers, which was what everyone demanded. This hindered the growth of the market. Then EA released BF2142, but severely limited any GSP's chance of hosting ranked servers.

The only game that still has a huge demand (and the stats to show it) is Counter-Strike. No other game has singlehandedly kept the GSP industry alive. At 40,000+ servers running at a single moment, nothing else comes close. Unfortunately, the actions of EA and other developers/publishers have kept the industry from growing. This is why the growth of the industry has come to almost a complete halt - there are no good games to host.

The second problem with the GSP industry is the gaming community itself. I have never seen such a large amount of whining, bickering people that want to buy a product. Day after day kids, teenagers, and adults whine and complain about everything in the GSP industry.

The worst was the gamers that complained that their ping to the server went up 10ms and threatened to cancel because of it. Try explaining networking, routing, or how latency and ping in a game are calculated and displayed to someone with no more knowledge of computers than your garden variety potato. Especially the more immature players who would kick and scream if you didn't cater to them. Those asking for free servers were bad too - cursing or spreading lies if you didn't sponsor their clan and give them a free server. I especially liked the ones that kept saying "oh, we're in CAL-O and will do well this year, so give us a free server". Yeah.. right..

Unfortunately, until TF2 and CS2 come out, the industry is going to keep dying. Not to mention that the attitudes of gamers and those running servers needs to change.

Unfortunately if you run your business a certain way you will receive the "pimply faced teenagers" as customers.
If you think the game industry is dying than obviously you've been out of it too long.
Management and Ease of use from a dedicated server is far different than having a dedicated box for yourself.
Jon Biloh agrees with you because he now runs a dedicated, color and other service provider. You guys are partial to what you believe.
I see the GSP industry growing and exploding new territory for current GSPs.
Yes the market is oversaturated with fly by night GSP's who are 16 year old kids,
but there is money to be made and adults 18+ who play games, and new and old people starting to play games and create clans who require such.

So end of line here, All of your oppinions/experiences are soley yours.

If you can properly manage your business, and I see new people renting servers everyday, and not taking them from other gsps you will get reliable customers.

So why are you criticizing a market you no longer do business in? It has most likely changed since then.

EA can go off into the sunset with their Ranked servers that the gamers want. When we can host others like it for free.

Well theres also no denying that there has been a recent trend in gamers shifting from individual game servers to dedicated servers.

With dedicated server prices dropping every year it's more cost effective for clans to simply purchase their own server where they can run whatever they want rather then rent a server and be limited.

I think your going to find the market shift increase as the price drops continue on dedicated hosting and the newer games become more resource intensive.

Your always going to have the kids who simply don't want to deal with running their own machine but as mentioned above it's no where near as lucrative as it once was.

I will agree on both defcon and innova on this one. They don't mean that the industry is dead, they are just implying that it is not as beneficial today as it was 5 to 6 years ago. The availability of high bandwidth DSL nowadays makes it easier, cheaper and more worth while to just make a game server of your own. :agree:

The ones arguing this weren't around a few years ago so it's a moot point..

I also use to run a GSP 3 years ago and got out basically because of every reason innova mentioned.

With that being said. Maby there is a new emerging nich gaming market for "managed" clan dedicated servers?

For example, instead of selling shared hosting game servers. you can sell your managed dedicated servers. this can appeal to many clans especialy the 32 slot/multiple server and high preformance type clients.

For example most serious CS clans are using companies like Hi-Def gaming. a 12 slot private match server cost $93 per month + ventrilo server this can go to over $100. Now you can get dedicated servers that can handle this very well in big name DC's from $70. Most people have no clue about how to run a game server on a dedicated Linux box so they would need your services. and for about the same price they get their own dedicated server, ability to put how every many game server/clients as they wish. And you benefit in that you are not paying any upfront cost. ie they pay you then you rent the dedicated box not the other way around. and considering the price you will probably be dealing with 16+year olds instead of 8-13 year olds.

This may be an "emerging market" to think about.

I get the feeling that soon some of the mid-sized GSPs may start to go up in flames. Too much capacity within the industry right now...

The ones arguing this weren't around a few years ago so it's a moot point..

Are you referring to me? I definately was here a "few" years ago. None the less I still see a wide open market. Just my oppinion.

Just a general statement. I didn't mean anyone in particular.

Eh,

After reading all these posts, I am kind of shocked... It seems like you people dont even like what you do/did with game serving... I have been running my company for nearly 4 years (august) and the money is certainly there...

The profit margins on selling virtual servers are staggering, at least thru my eyes.. But I am more happy to be providing a service for a group of people... the bills are paid every month with no problems, so I guess I am a hobby guy... there are profits involved no doubt, but like i said.. its all about providing a service.. its a thrill.. I even like dealing with 'pimply faced teenagers' to be quite honest, I dont have many teenagers as customers.. Id say 90% are 20+..

But fun little thread here... it was interesting to see some other providers thoughts on the business... and what company did innova run, you better not say ilangame... I heard they screwed alot of people over in their little dissolution.

Dan

Wasn't Ilangame.

Fragism if memory serves?

I am super surprised that this conversation got as deep as it has, let the newbies give it a shot and let them fall on their faces if they do not have what it takes.

Eh,

After reading all these posts, I am kind of shocked... It seems like you people dont even like what you do/did with game serving... I have been running my company for nearly 4 years (august) and the money is certainly there...

Dan

Don't get me wrong i did love running game servers. However it was a full time job paying a part-time salary. I only had about 140 - 150 customers and slowly growing. so for me, i was only making $22,000 per year, which were i live just doesn't pay the bills. If i had gotten into it sooner and had maybe 350 to 400 clients, i would still be doing it today.

The real money is probably in professional tournaments. Unfortunately, CAL and others have established strong barriers to entry for that market.

I get the feeling that soon some of the mid-sized GSPs may start to go up in flames. Too much capacity within the industry right now...

I know of one company that is currently fending off a lawsuit that I doubt makes it out of 2007. :agree:

What have you heard? I'm curious.

Well here is where I heard about such a thing http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/ . Will they go under I don't know or much care

Well here is where I heard about such a thing http://www.gotfrag.com/css/story/37209/ . Will they go under I don't know or much care

Looks like me like some CS kiddies sued them for some sponsorship issues? With that kind of money they would have been better off renting machines through softlayer to begin with.

Well from what I understand a deal with said CS team would mean probably a big return in sales and exposure hence why they are even paying that team an amount. Considering this team is signed to be on tv for a national gaming league thing soon this was not your average sponsorship of here's a few game servers. I imagine that's why it's not just a walk away thing the team is trying to make money off of how well they're known.

It is unfortunate that the deal turned South, I have no problem with a competitor coughing up revenue and sellable space only to find out a year later that they are in the hole $15,000.

Sponsorships of gaming teams by "known" companies is a losing proposition. The teams cannot approach an even return. There are more important things in business than buying friends on popular teams.

The company in question seems to have had it coming. http://www.hd-gaming.com/images/summit-train.JPG

I guess they had some free time between lunch and naptime.

It is unfortunate that the deal turned South, I have no problem with a competitor coughing up revenue and sellable space only to find out a year later that they are in the hole $15,000.

Sponsorships of gaming teams by "known" companies is a losing proposition. The teams cannot approach an even return. There are more important things in business than buying friends on popular teams.


So if your company is already well known, brand recognition isn't important anymore? You should hire your consulting services out to Intel and AMD, they seem to be making the same mistakes!


The company in question seems to have had it coming. http://www.hd-gaming.com/images/summit-train.JPG

I guess they had some free time between lunch and naptime.

I didn't understand the drawing. The writing was hard to read. Was that a dig at Velocity Servers? First, Velocity seems to be a reputable company -- I've never heard any important negative criticism of them from anyone that matters. Second, don't go bashing them when they can't defend themselves. If complexity is suing Velocity, Velocity would be very unwise to comment on it in a public forum. You have to be careful with civil suits.

As it relates to the game server market I agree it doesn't make sense to sponsor. My opinion is why should we give away servers when we get plenty of new paying customers every month?


It didn't look like anyone was being bashed here, Jon asked a question and was given the answer. If you don't want to hear the answer don't ask ;)

So if your company is already well known, brand recognition isn't important anymore? You should hire your consulting services out to Intel and AMD, they seem to be making the same mistakes!



I didn't understand the drawing. The writing was hard to read. Was that a dig at Velocity Servers? First, Velocity seems to be a reputable company -- I've never heard any important negative criticism of them from anyone that matters. Second, don't go bashing them when they can't defend themselves. If complexity is suing Velocity, Velocity would be very unwise to comment on it in a public forum. You have to be careful with civil suits.

What is important negative criticism? Who matters?

The drawing was made by a staff member of Summit Servers/Velocity Servers last year where they were "running the train" down the mountain to NFo, HiDef and GriffinRun (notice HD is a person tied to the tracks). Point being...immaturity. Then again, I don't matter and my negative criticism isn't important.

All in good fun. Much like the GameServers robot and their animated movie, which has them blowing up many GSPs (NFO/Velocity/etc). http://www.gameservers.com/why/?video

As it relates to the game server market I agree it doesn't make sense to sponsor. My opinion is why should we give away servers when we get plenty of new paying customers every month?

It's about trust, market share and retention.


It didn't look like anyone was being bashed here, Jon asked a question and was given the answer. If you don't want to hear the answer don't ask ;)


I didn't ask. If I misinterpreted Hi-Def's post, I apologize Hi-Def. But, based on his follow up, I think my understanding was accurate.


What is important negative criticism? Who matters?

The drawing was made by a staff member of Summit Servers/Velocity Servers last year where they were "running the train" down the mountain to NFo, HiDef and GriffinRun (notice HD is a person tied to the tracks). Point being...immaturity. Then again, I don't matter and my negative criticism isn't important.

I really wasn't referring to you. I was just saying Velocity has a good rep, and to pre-empt some link to some thread somewhere where someone is saying "OMGZORS Jon Biloh is so gayzor", I included that little caveat.

All in good fun. Much like the GameServers robot and their animated movie, which has them blowing up many GSPs (NFO/Velocity/etc). http://www.gameservers.com/why/?video

Exactly - good fun. And if you can't poke fun at your competition on an internal company whiteboard, I'd suggest you need to mature your sense of humor.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion I guess.