Hello!

I have a user that has been with us for a week or so. This person was a pain in the arse even before she signed up, and is becomming more and more of one. My question is this: is it acceptable to terminate this user? She has not violated our TOS, and I would offer a complete refund - or, I would give her the option of finishing out her first month of service. She complains about everything, and it is always something that she is doing wrong to cause her problems!

One more question - this may be a little off topic, but I have another WHT username, and for some reason, I am not able to post to the forum with that UN. This happened once before, and I simply created a new one and it worked ok. The page told me I didnt have permission to post, even though I have posted many times before and do not think I did anything to violate the WHT TOS. My old username is WWH-David, and when I do a search for that username, none of my old posts come up.

What's up with dat?

<<MOD NOTE: I think your old username is David-WWH not WWH-David - is it ok to terminate members who can't remember their username? ;):D You also registered for WWH-David but misspelled your URL (hsoting), so you didn't get the confirmation email>>

Thanks for the help!

Regards,
David Harris

Hi David!

Well, if they haven't violated any of your terms, there are no grounds for termination. I don't think you can legally just cut them off without them violating anything.

What type of things do they complain about?

Don't know what's up with your other user names. But, I'm sure if you contact the moderators here at the address listed at the bottom of every page, someone would be able to tell you.

Back to your original question. If I had a member as you described, there is no way that I would terminate them if they had not violated the TOS. That's just part of the business. There are those that will never ask one thing from you. And there are those that will demand everything and more. It seems to all even out.

Yeah i dont think you can terminate them without violating something in the TOS or AUP.

Thanks for the replies!

This user first complained that I didnt get back to her soon enough, when I emailled her 20 minutes after her inquiry. Then, she complained that we didnt answer our phones when she tried to call - my caller ID has no calls from her, and we are always here to answer phones during businees hours. I would think that these reasons would be enough to prevent her from signing up, yet she did anyway. Then, she proceeded to imediatlely call our 800#, which is for sales, not support, and she told me how ugly her username is. We use the standard username which consists of the users 1st initial plus their last name. She said, "how could you give me such a bad username? This is ridiculous!". So, I changed it for her. Now, she cant get any FTP client to work for her, because she just doesnt get it that her index page needs to be in the httpdocs directory. When I offered to upload her pages for her, she replied that she got it to work with a 'paid' FTP client, as opposed to the 'free' ones that dont work ie WsFTP and FTP Explorer. She said those would let her download, but not upload. I would love to know what she downloaded, if she could never upload anything! Now, she is hitting me with these email questions about setting up folders and "fetching" email, and after about 3 times back and forth with it, I still can not understand what she wants. But, she is "very upset", and wants me to fix it. I wish I could put a line in my TOS that stated that clients are not allowed to be a pain in the arse! She kept telling me about this 'georgous index page" that she cant upload, and it is driving her nuts. I think that isnt a long trip, and one that she made long before signing up with us.

I have only mentioned about 10% of the stuff she has hit me with, and she only signed up last thursday.

Is it really that unacceptable to refuse to renew her service?

Thanks again for the replies!

David

I would find it unacceptable if a host refused to renew my month to month service just because they felt I asked too many questions.

Just look at it this way; eventually you will have taught her everything she needs to know about using her account and she will not ask. She will think you are the best host ever for taking the time and patience to teach her.

By the way; do you have a good FAQ section?

Hehe, see if she has anonymous ftp on. If she has, it's quite easy to upload a few illegal files via a few proxies and you have immediate grounds for account termination.

Man, can I be evil or what :dgrin:

While I don't believe it would be a good business move, I am not sure that it would be "illegal" to let this customer go. Generally, businesses are regulated by the local governments under which they operate. Thus, if you were incorporated in the state of Nevada, for example, you should be familiar with the regulations of that state. Whether or not you can legally dump a customer would be (hopefully) addressed under those regulations.
It also depends on what your contract with your customers state. If your contract states that you can dump customers without any recourse, then your customer would most likely be bound by that contract. If your contract doesn't address the issue, it's a bit more stickey.
If you feel that it will cost you more to keep this customer than to let them go, you may want to consider doing that. However, take into consideration all factors such as 'good will'. Perhaps, if you satisfy this customer, you will build up enough good will that this customer will remain loyal for years and promote your business to friends and associates. Consider the value in that. OTOH, if you dump them, consider what it will cost you in good will if the customer goes from website to website lodging complaints against you. Look at the open customer complaints we see on this forum alone about hosts mistreating customers. Consider it.
I wouldn't think of dropping a customer because they ask too many questions. If there's something more you're not telling us, then maybe there's justification for doing it. However, I'd use extreme caution before cutting them off. If you're going to do it, be honest with them, give them time to find a new host and maybe even recommend them another host that might be able to handle their needs better than you. If you do it gently enough, perhaps you can send them to another host without making a hostile situation.
Good luck!

Originally posted by Tazzman
Hehe, see if she has anonymous ftp on. If she has, it's quite easy to upload a few illegal files via a few proxies and you have immediate grounds for account termination.

Man, can I be evil or what :dgrin:

that is a horribly evil thing to do...
:eek:

give her time she will learn and you cant just terminate her account for asking to many questions just grin and bare it lol

:uzi:
:uzi:
:uzi:

Hi

I love those types of customers really :)

Few can host with no problems, and patiance is best learned thru customers like that. If the customer is a newbe - sound the alarm, or get more coffee for the first month.

The first site, first month is a panic for users. You can help them with patiance or without - your choice.

2 years - I have not lost a single customer. Now even when they their own dedicateds - they prefer I get it for them.

Call me Silly :)

wow i think mas murder is a bit to much , lmao

Originally posted by WorldWide
She complains about everything, and it is always something that she is doing wrong to cause her problems!
Here's a thought, if it bothers you that much why don't you just tell her she's an ass and to stop bothering you. The worst that can happen is that she cancels her account, which is what it sounds like you want anyway. On the other hand, she make wake up and say to herself, "You know, he's right, I am being an ass. I really appreciate his honesty. I'm going to put my best foot forward and learn to do this on my own!!! I feel so liberated!!! I am a new woman!!! I'm so lucky to have found these guys, this is the BEST hosting service in the history of the world!!!"

Or maybe not. But hey, what have you got to loose? I'm sure many hosts on here have wanted to do that at one time or another (except me of course :) ), you could be famous as the first that actually did it.

a couple of points

1. who says you cant kill the account refund her money and tell her to split. most hosts have written into their terms provisions for such.

2. assume you do this what can she do, dont tell me sue. let her plop down the retainer of 2k for an attorney to even look at it.

on the other hand

3. how many times do any of us piss off the admins at our nocs because we dont know admin tricks paths etc?? hmm?

4. wouldnt like it if your noc told you split because you asked to many dumb questions, but read their sla, they can...

in the end when we get one of these types we go so far then we take our time responding by email to the support request blitz

and definitely NEVER phone support for this type--trust me on that one.

put up with the trash, by email only. in the end if she really gets to you stop resonding to her support tickets...


dos centavos

Feel free to terminate her at will. You are not obligated to offer service to anyone. It is not their right, it is YOUR BUSINESS. You can terminate her for any or no reason whatever. I've had a problem customer a time or two in the past and agonized over the decision, but in each case refunding their money and politely telling them that I didn't have sufficient resources to support them adequately was always the best decision.

Don't worry, ive had a couple of customers who have been a pain in the ass, i have put up with them and they have been greatful and now, ive been asking a few customers for some testimonials for the site and they have been great. I have a fewe up atm and more to come.
They were also prepared to stick by me when we hit a rough patch with a server and had a lot of dowtime.

See, they weren't a pain in the ass afterall!!!
Remember that its the customers who keep us here, without them you will have no business.
Also remember what it was like when you first started with your very own site and had to learn all about FTP.....if you are new to it you find it hard to be clear and tell teh host what they need to know, just because you dont understand.

Give her time i'm sure it will pay off in the long run.

Yes indeed. This is one of those cases of 'raise the customer' -- after all those hours of 'teaching' them to do what they want to do on the Internet, in the end they will thank you for it. Really! :)

Or you could make some really annoying sounds when she is on the phone (e.g. yawning, imitate a donkey or an ape) and thinks that you are insane and leaves! j/k :D

Originally posted by ARETNA
Well, if they haven't violated any of your terms, there are no grounds for termination. I don't think you can legally just cut them off without them violating anything.

Sure he can! It's his business! They're using his resources! As long as he provides a refund, I don't see any legal problems. Whether it's ethical or not is for you to decide. It's no different from a manager kicking someone out of their store.

well maybe that is true

Originally posted by WorldWide


Now, she is hitting me with these email questions about setting up folders and "fetching" email, and after about 3 times back and forth with it, I still can not understand what she wants. But, she is "very upset", and wants me to fix it. I wish I could put a line in my TOS that stated that clients are not allowed to be a pain in the arse! She kept telling me about this 'georgous index page" that she cant upload, and it is driving her nuts. I think that isnt a long trip, and one that she made long before signing up with us.

I have only mentioned about 10% of the stuff she has hit me with, and she only signed up last thursday.

Is it really that unacceptable to refuse to renew her service?





Some people really have trouble putting their exact thoughts into emails, or following the instructions that you send them. They may make perfect sense to you, but if she is new to the net, she may be lost.

Instead of losing a paying customer, take a minute to pick up the phone and call her. Let her know that you are working on her problem and walk her through step by step in getting her email problems fixed. You might be surprised how different she acts. Now instead of a pain in the but customer, you may have a customer that will tell others about the good customer service you have. Just a thought, but it does work.

We've all had newbie customers who make you dread answering your email. It's just a part of the business. In my experience, if you stick with these customers and teach them how to use your service, then they will remain loyal. ;)

Originally posted by ToastyX
Sure he can! It's his business! They're using his resources! As long as he provides a refund, I don't see any legal problems. Whether it's ethical or not is for you to decide. It's no different from a manager kicking someone out of their store.

You are correct. There are customers I've "trained" over time and its worked out -- but there are others who I've jettisoned because it was clear they just weren't ever going to "get there".

Naturally we need our customers, but that doesn't mean we have to live with bad customers.

Maybe the best solution would be to hire extra help so they can deal with the annoying customer instead of you ;)

...or recommend them to your competitor!

Sorry if someone has already mentioned this, but...

Customers shouldn't *EXPECT* training from their ISPs or hosting providers. Once you identify this the customer may realize where the line is being drawn.

Every business has the right to deny service to a customer as long as that service is not under a restricted contract.

Many people have pointed out that with a little care and handling she might turn out decently.

On the other hand, you have zero legal obligation to host her (hopefully you have in your TOS that you have the right to refuse service to anyone for any reason). You're in business, you're not a charity outfit, and if you are using so much resources (time, energy, effort, anger) it may not be worth hosting her, right?

So, I'm not advising you either way; it's your choice, but I would take both points into consideration (that she might turn out to be a good customer, or she might ending up being a losing deal).

One person mentioned that hosts and ISP's aren't supposed to 'train' their customers but no one really expounded on it.

When you buy a car do they teach you how to drive? No. When you buy a gun do they teach you how to shoot? No. (although maybe they should :D )

As webhosts, it is not our responsibility to teach our clients how to design webpages, upload them, or even setup an email client. It is our responsibility to make sure the server is up and running and that they have email, ftp and http running.

Frequently asked questions are great to help iron out some simple problems with email, ftp and other simple issues. If they still don't get it just politely explain that you'll have to charge for that kind of support.

I've seen hosts do this in the past and frankly I can't blame them. A goot tech support rep can get $15/hour here (which ends up costing the employer $22/hour!) - that's more than many customers pay in a month for hosting. The costs just don't justify troubleshooting everything the client needs.

I try to answer as many questions as possible for clients, but in the end I have the right to tell them that I have to draw a line at certain things, and if everything is working on our end then they're going to have to pay for further support. I always try to help the customer but some customers just want to call you every 5 minutes no matter what is wrong. "I can't pull my website up." - "Can you pull any website up?" - "Well, no." LOL

Otherwise they could run you right out of business :D Anyway, good luck and be sure to let us know how you handled her!

Drop her..

A simple: "If you don’t believe we reply to your questions fast enough, or provide the level of service you require, we would recommend (blah host – or – looking for a host that can meet your needs)." email, with a refund (less what she used) should do the trick ;)

There is a limit on how much a web host can put up with, and from what it seems, she passed that a long time ago! Maybe letting her know it’s time to go, or at least smarten up a little will put her in place.

I for one would absolutely refuse to put up with that for a few dollars per month! Let someone else deal with the problems. It's not worth it.

Have you thought that possibly you are being "reviewed" for a mag or a host directory? Unlikely but possible.
When we get clients like this, we absolutely go out of our way to make them happy, but in the process we politely identify what we are and are not responsible for. Difficult to do but usually worth it in the end. Often results in repeat business and additional support fees.
Cheers

Please feel free to offer her one year- Free - 100 Meg hosting on my dedicated servers - just to get her out off your hands and hair - no kidding.

First, I do not recommend "firing" any clients who have not broken any TOS. It's just bad business. Now, if she's rude and abusive, then I would simply refund her payment in full and bid her good luck (but tell her why you are refunding her $$ -- that it's her abusive tone). But be clear: abusive is not asking questions and calling your sales toll free number. Abusive is swearing and shouting at your staff, mail-bombing your support address, etc.

That said, if you really want to get rid of her, just ignore her and she'll fire you... eventually :)

I agree with those who recommend patience and caring for this customer. I have a few like this and once you get over that initial aggravation, they become dedicated clients. On occasion I slip in suggestions of books or online learning courses to let the person know that they need to spend some time and money on educating themselves.

And if none of the above works for you, send her my way! We'd be happy to take all the customers you don't want off your hands :D

Good luck -- and let us know how it turns out!


HS.c

I don't see anything wrong with refunding the customer and telling her bon voyage, good bye :) :eek:

Originally posted by edude
I don't see anything wrong with refunding the customer and telling her bon voyage, good bye

Its certainly a decision that the business owner has to make for themselves. You have to make a cost-benefit analysis and do what's right for your company.

I mean this customer could also be causing problems amongst the rest of your customers, such as unrest.. etc..

Another idea would be to point her to some online newbie/tutorial sites, it sounds like she could do with spending some time to learn the basics, and/or in a carefully worded polite email let her know that you do not provide computer/internet training as part of the basic service but would be happy to do so at your hourly rate of $x/hr.

Ok, the last part might be a last resort ;) But I think you'd have to draw the line somewhere to keep your own cost (in terms of the time spent giving support to her) to an acceptable level. Its a fine line to walk huh.

Might be worth writing an extensive newbie FAQ on setting up a site with your service and include links to other resources and tutorials. If after going through that your customer still has questions then at least you know they covered the basics.

Just some random thoughts :)
Myros

good idea myros

I don't think you have any reason to suspend her account, even though she is a pain in the ass. She hasn't violated any of your policies. You should state in your TOS "Being a pain in the ass is subject to removal or suspension of your account.":)

This is kind of late but thanks for alerting me about this issue. Do you guys think it is a good idea to add something to TOS about not complaining to staff/owner/support? Well not exactly complaining but, "complaining with unacceptable language". Heh, I know some companies that just cut off the phone if you are doing this=)

What do you guys think?

Originally posted by iamdave
I don't think you have any reason to suspend her account, even though she is a pain in the ass. She hasn't violated any of your policies. You should state in your TOS "Being a pain in the ass is subject to removal or suspension of your account.":)

i think i am going to add that to my TOS! heh j/k

Originally posted by WorldWide
My question is this: is it acceptable to terminate this user? She has not violated our TOS, and I would offer a complete

You have the right to deny service to whomever you want, for pretty much whatever reason you care to dream up.

Pay attention to the posts in this thread by hostpath.com and Lurleene - they are right on the money.

-Bob

we just had the same thing with a new reseller he claimed to have been there and done that, but could not move over his first child account cause he couldnt log into his web host mgr

he was asked to reread his setup info - 4 times duh!

some people are lazy, want to be spoon fed, and dont read

this customer requested a return phone call today--NOT

he can wait till monday, maybe he will learn to read by then....


when they dont read the easy to use setup instructions we very rarely show any mercy and we cut off this type of behavior at the first sign of trouble.

normal support is normal we are happy to help
laziness or refusal to read is not tolerated


for those of you hand holders that feel compelled to teach the newbies ftp or read for those that refuse to

you can have our fallout

we dont want newbies
we dont want lazy spoon feaders

and yes we do just fine without those $ too!!

Many customers get upset because of communication problems. I'm sure most of us have had the customer that doesn't know their browser from their "Yahoo"

Usually the patience pays off when you educate the customer, not always, but usually.

It doesn't really matter if you don't like the way a customer asks you questions, certainly there's nothing wrong with a customer asking a million questions.

It's also relative since some customers may be better suited to a particular company and their policies as opposed to another. Your customer from hell may be my typical customer, and vice versa.

Well I know I am just adding to the post but we too get these types of customers all the time. The best thing to do is have a good FAQ section and try to be as helpful as possible and make sure each time say "that's a great question and it has come up before so we added it to our FAQ section to help get you the answers even faster" (hint hint)

We have a guy every month without fail right after his CC get charged for his hosting he complains that our server was down according to his monitoring service. Funny thing is we run internal and two external monitoring services from two different parts of the US to make sure we know if a server is down long before the user ever would know. Every month he has the same "proof" that his server was down for days at a time... Last month he told me that his monitoring service said that his server was down for almost 47 hours straight.. :rolleyes: whatever.. I told him if my servers were down that long I would be out of business....
I explained that even though some hosting companies will claim 100% uptime and some can even get really close that the server might be running fine but somewhere between his ISP and the our DC something could be down and that happens but not for 47 hours.
Anyway I told him that he seems unhappy and maybe it would be best if he found a hosting company that he would feel more comfortable with and move to them and I offered to give his monthly fee back. He changed his tune really fast and said NO I like the service.:confused: :confused: :confused:
Anyway. Stick with her.. If it continues lay it on the line and explain you are the hosting company and not a teaching company. Give her some links to places that will help her along and if that does not help offer to let her go elsewhere and offer to give her money back.
Usually those type customers will be cool once they think that you don't really need them. We love our customers, I still have the very first customer I ever signed over three years ago.
Some are more work and some you never hear from.. Even it all out and you might have 2-3 questions a day :D

Okay that's it for me

My 2 cents.

Robert