Thats why they are evil :)

news link (http://www.nbc5i.com/news/1539017/detail.html)

Haha. Except for the fact that ***** already removed the site from their servers.

They should be investigated regardless. Maybe they'll find some other irregularities :)

well I just looked over the AUP / TOS of *****

there is nothing there that states that a site that is involved in anti-american feeling is against there hosting rules.

so if the site is american base I would sue the pants off of ***** just because they terminated me. You can not terminate a client if they don't break the rules, the only loop hole to this is when you offer a straight month to month contract, then with 30days notice you advise the client on non-renewal.

Mike

Good Ideah Mike.........Lets encourage illegal activity.............Now unless I am mistaken terrorism is not supported in the " service level agreement " with any american company. I am sooooo glad you "love your customers" as opossed to those other companies who love their country........hmmmmm........hope this terrorist support thing works out for ya :angry:

Jason

Now unless I am mistaken terrorism is not supported in the " service level agreement " with any american company. I am sooooo glad you "love your customers" as opossed to those other companies who love their country

:laugh: And you have a little goth demon waving a flag in the rear window of your american car?

Nah...he's one of those driving an overpriced gas guzzling SUV with a sun faded, weather worn/torn american flag stuck backwards and crooked on the back window that they got for $3.99 at the grocery store checkout all to show their support.
:D

Originally posted by jason_nash
Good Ideah Mike.........Lets encourage illegal activity.............Now unless I am mistaken terrorism is not supported in the " service level agreement " with any american company. I am sooooo glad you "love your customers" as opossed to those other companies who love their country........hmmmmm........hope this terrorist support thing works out for ya :angry:

Jason

offtopic

Nifty way to try to portray me as a terrorist supporting person, but no dice, all you have done is point out flaws within your statement.

Anyway you are missing the point. the information they were posting was low level. I would think that would be properganda. Also the constitution has no qualms about revolutionary speach ( Tomas Jefferson said we should have a revolution once every 10 years to keep government honest ), this would fall under it. and would not fall under hate speach ( if it did they did not exersize there TOS /AUP which could be held against them in the future )

What you are saying leads to people being forbidden to express there thoughts freely. We can as web host prevent certain types of talk ( hate speach ) but there are some other things we can not, Unless we define it within out AUP and TOS.

To say I think there should be a revolution in XYZ country is not hate speach, but to say xyz people should be killed might be ( i really don't know the legal wording for hate speach but I know when I see it, or atleast I think I do )


On topic :

Overall you got to admit, it is funny that ****** is caught up in this dodo

Mike

oops dual post by accident

My point was that the gist of a post flew right by this kid, it happens often. Almost like posting at the end of a thread without reading it. :rolleyes: \
As for our friends at CI, I thought that was hilarious. Those poor dorks can't win for losin'.

Originally posted by ADEhost
You can not terminate a client if they don't break the rules...

Uh, yes you can.

hostpath explain to me how you can do that with no liability to the firm ?

Most TOS / AUP are unenforceable because they lack a few things. and those covering statements that you see in 99% of all tos/ aup are not valid in a court of law.

Get someone with big enough dollars mad at you you will see how quickly you will fall, heck my lawyer and myself still can not create a qualified AUP / TOS that meets up to the government rules and fair to both users and me.

Mike

:laugh:

Originally posted by ADEhost

Overall you got to admit, it is funny that ****** is cuaght up in this dodo


yeah i think it is funny that they got caught up in it. heh

You don't see the feds trying to close down the neo-nazi sites or the anit-abotion sites with information about doctors to be killed and their home addresses.

Only a moron would leack out such information. The feds could have spied on the webmaster and his connection to terrorism easily without even him noticing. They could've monitored all his conversations and such. Hope they are smarted then that,

They weren't the only one. And won't be the last I am sure.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56585,00.html

I could be way off here, but a site crosses the line when it has content that incites people to commit heinous crimes - like murder, incest, rape, etc. Neo-nazi sites that encourage people to take actions against any race are illegal - you can certainly say "I hate these people", but you can't say Kill so-and-so..In particular, you cannot publish information that directly incites treasonous actions - again, I could be way off here!

Well I have mixed opions on the matter. I mean yes if the content of the site was talking about killing others and sort then yes it should have maybe been suspeneded untill futher investigation was done by the FBI. I myself dont know what i would do in the situation. If the FBI forces you to shut down then do so because any legal action can be just thrown on them like little kid games...."he did it not me" but other than that i think they should have revied the site to see what the content had and left it up. If it was promoting terror then yeah take that dang thing down but otherwise i guess that would be like if spain attacked the Sears tower taht we would turn around and stop hosting all spanish sites because they could be bad. Its not right its almost discrimination. I dont know like i said i have no idea what to do LOL. :uhh:

As long as you have the web host's equivilent of the 7-11 "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at anytime" cluase in your AUP, then I think you would be covered.;)

(And I Know that the above is legal because I have owned/been part of owning a 7-11 store for nearly 20 years now.)

:D

Originally posted by mpope
As long as you have the web host's equivilent of the 7-11 "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at anytime" cluase in your AUP, then I think you would be covered.;)

(And I Know that the above is legal because I have owned/been part of owning a 7-11 store for nearly 20 years now.)

:D

your statement above in not bulletproof in the USA. The first time you deciede not to server someone because they come in dressed in a turban, nazi uniform, or something to your non-liking, You will be taken to court. ( or atleast in NJ it seems that these type of cases are common ).

I'm not fighting what you are saying, but I want people to understand the the rights we are granted via the Bill of Rights, Constitution of the United States of America, and the laws withing our nation can not be so easyily looked upon and thrown away at your saying. When you say "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone at anytime" you are stating in your own words that the freedom's for equality that we all have fought hard to win for don't count.

To sight something very basic, I will recall my day's back in the 80's when me and a group of us would cruse the main drag in out tricked out cars ( don't know if that's popular now to but was in my day ):

we would all cruse single file about 20 cars long, Cops placed up no cruse signs and would give us tickets for it. So we went to court. At court, we stated we all crused single file so that emergency people could pass right by. we cruses at 15 MPH so that there were no issues of slow spead, and we followed the 2 second rule so as not to be tailgaiting. Well we fought hard and won the privilage to cruse ( given we might have gotten tickets for noise polution ) and the town was happy. Heck we were even in our favorite magazine as a cool crusing spot ( car craft 1986 I think, for hackensask NJ ), but the point was the we were willing to fight, paid for an attorney and we won.

Just a point of sanity:

How would you know if the content incited hatred if it was in another language?


Oh , and Dr Johnsons definition of Patriotism was "last refuge of a scoundrel"
Something worth considering when things go a bit OTT on issues like this.

Gordon

I think this is a matter of free speech. Since we don't know what it said, I think that its inappropriate to from an opinion based speculation.

If the site just expresses an opinion, then it should stay. If it gives instructions, or serves as a communications center for terrorists, then it should come down.

I don't know much about *****, but I feel the need to defend them. When you deal in the large volumes of sites that they do, you don't get the chance to keep an eye on all of your customers. I'm sure they had no idea what the content of site was.

Originally posted by GordonH
Just a point of sanity:
How would you know if the content incited hatred if it was in another language?
Oh , and Dr Johnsons definition of Patriotism was "last refuge of a scoundrel"
Something worth considering when things go a bit OTT on issues like this.

Gordon

when my lawyer and myself got together about these types of issues, we had to spend about 2 days discussing it. and then looking over the business plan. At what price are you willing to carry Contriversial ( sp? ) speach.

personally I would be scared of having abortion ( anti or for ) sites and related type sites. Same for discrimination site like a white power site. So I spent some time reasearching whom they host with. and I found out that I could price myself out of thier range. so I did that. Now what would I do if one of them came to my hosting company for services. well after I found out about it. I would exersize my 30 day rules ( all accounts in the begining can only sign up for monthly untill I choose otherwise ) and not renue the monthly contract. So they would be off of my servers within a gross ammount of time of 60 days maximum.

in reference to other language sites : that's simple, have in you TOS and AUP ( both are required, the TOS would have how you would transmit the request for information, the AUP would have the rules for how the client should reply, ... ) the right to demand a translation of the site. We currently have that into effect with a reseller that deals with the Asian markets, I can pick up the phone and call him asking what a site is all about and he has to give me the traslation ( I use the babblefish and google to confirm what he is saying ) If they refuse to translate, you can again give the 30 days notice and then they are gone.

Also there is only 1 way that me and my lawyer agree upon on how to remove a client from the servers without warning or notice. Hacking attempt or a DOS attack. one of those against a specific tageted site with contriversial ( sp? ) speach will bring immediate termination of the clients site. This has been already been tested in the courts of California and Washington as a justified measure a web host can take to protect his business and the clients that depend on the survivalbility of web host.

we live in a law suit happy world ( or atleast in the usa ), so I really am just trying to protect myself as much as possible.

Mike

Mike.......I didn't mean to be volatile at first and insinuate that you were a terrorist supporter.......it's just that you said you would go and sue the company........well you are a host, right? If some supposed " al quida " site poped up on one of your servers and the FBI got involved, would you want to be sued for teminating the client?
I totally agree on the freedom of speach thing.....I mean that is one of the core beliefs our country was founded on.......However when you don't even live here and you are acessing an American network and posting crap about praying for the destruction of America I don't think that really falls under the constitution. Then again these are just my opinions.

Jason

.... posting crap about praying for the destruction of America I don't think that really falls under the constitution

Though the current administration would like to lead us to believe otherwise, I certainly think that it does.

My question Jeff is that if you were found in another country talking crap there is a good chance you would be in prison or executed..................Why should we continue to be all PC and in turn get kicked in the teeth for it? I dunno I guess this whole situation just realy gets to me........I don't hate anyone and don't understand why alll these people want to kill and destroy.......it's just beyond me!

Jason

Well, I agree about hate and killing. The Bill of Rights is an interesting and unique document, you should check it out. (http://www.archives.gov/exhibit_hall/charters_of_freedom/bill_of_rights/bill_of_rights.html) Basically, it is what differentiates us from all other countries.

Originally posted by jason_nash
Mike.......I didn't mean to be volatile at first and insinuate that you were a terrorist supporter.......it's just that you said you would go and sue the company........well you are a host, right? If some supposed " al quida " site poped up on one of your servers and the FBI got involved, would you want to be sued for teminating the client?
I totally agree on the freedom of speach thing.....I mean that is one of the core beliefs our country was founded on.......However when you don't even live here and you are acessing an American network and posting crap about praying for the destruction of America I don't think that really falls under the constitution. Then again these are just my opinions.

Jason

If the FBI came and said that they wanted access to my servers, I would say, where is your Warrent, upon presenting the warrent, I would grant them access to the specified areas of the warrent ( I'm not giving up my other clients right's ) and nothing else.

now al quida site shows up and is covered under the warrent, I have to provide the services based on the terms of the warrent, I have no choice. I could not even exersise my business right's to terminate them by not renueing them on a monthly basis. But let's say it's just someone call al quida ( heck there are alot of funny names out there so) , and it's his business, could you by your standards terminate his business if he's done nothing wrong.

For me this is a huge problem, because it basically falls along those lines of : am I a patriot, or do I believe in the constitution. Remmember sometimes following the terms of the constitution will seem to be unpatriotic. Being a first generation american ( where my parents came from was a military government without any rights) , we were drilled daily from our birth (in NYC), that we have rights and how to defend them and never to loose them. ( still amazes me that over 50% of the USA population does not vote )

Your last line is a general misunderstanding. american or non-american on USA Soil or properties are protected by our bill of rights and constitution. I believe that was placed to the test in the 90"s when a non-US citizen was arrested in California and was not read there Maranda Rights. And also another case where taxpaying non-citizens we requesting the right to send there children to school ( migrant labors if I recall correctly ). Also in the 80's we had the flag burning issues, It is your right to burn your own american flag, but it is an unpatriotic act. and patriotism is not something the government should have to look at. The last time that the USA government sugjest you had to be a patriot was durring the Macarthy and his hunts to destroy Commies.

Boy, I feel sorry for Albert Qaida (I checked the local phone book and he was listed)

Why should we continue to be all PC and in turn get kicked in the teeth for it?

Who was it that said "Freedom is a struggle"?

Your business, your server, you decide who gets to use it and who doesn't. Free speech rules DON'T apply on a private piece of equipment.

Very simple. TOS or not, it just doesn't matter.

Just like with a retail storefront -- if you don't want to serve a customer, kick them out. The law is on YOUR side, not theirs. So long as you give them a full refund for any services not paid for but not provided, you've nothing to worry about.

Your customers have no rights to use your equipment for their purposes other than the rights you give them. Period.

Originally posted by the-admiral
I think this is a matter of free speech.

Not really. When you own a server, your customers only have the right to express what views you allow them to express there. If a guy walks into your retail store and starts holding up signs of aborted fetuses and claims he has the right to do so because he just bought a pack of gum, give him back his 50 cents and boot him out the front door...

Originally posted by hostpath.com
Your business, your server, you decide who gets to use it and who doesn't. Free speech rules DON'T apply on a private piece of equipment.

Very simple. TOS or not, it just doesn't matter.

Just like with a retail storefront -- if you don't want to serve a customer, kick them out. The law is on YOUR side, not theirs. So long as you give them a full refund for any services not paid for but not provided, you've nothing to worry about.

Your customers have no rights to use your equipment for their purposes other than the rights you give them. Period.

retail store front:
You may not discriminate on race, creed or color even smell ( ask delta airlines about that one ), but you can prevent people based on dress codes.

for free speach:
your TOS / AUP has to define what is the restricted speach. otherwise they are in the clear. that's why we got in big letters "no adult content " to prevent adult content

as for the term "it just does not matter", Yes it does, maybe you are lucky in your time that nobody wishes to take action against the terms that you offer. But if I was a client of a host that I did business with and they decieded to pull the plug because I posted something that they did not like ( example would be a view point on current state of affairs ) I believe I have enough legal grounds to make you provide me with my hosting services back without retaliations.

the point I'm making is that most people don't know what thier rights are, I happen to be one of the few that has a general idea of what I can not do, and when someone does those things to me I check with my lawyer to counter.

good example is the public park we have in our area, I go with my daughter there all the time. sometimes there are people speeding like mad ( well it is NJ ). SO what have I done, called the local mayor, had him place one of those speed indicators at the corner of the park, and attached a video camera, now the town will write about 5 tickets a day easy of people that are traveling 40mph in a 25mph zone. Now this took me 3 months to get done, and required alot of handshaking and going to the weekly town meetings. But I exersized my rights and got it OKed.

Mike

Originally posted by ADEhost
But if I was a client of a host that I did business with and they decieded to pull the plug because I posted something that they did not like ( example would be a view point on current state of affairs ) I believe I have enough legal grounds to make you provide me with my hosting services back without retaliations.

I can see why you might think so, but in point of fact you don't. You'll take your refund and find another host. And no court will force me to provide you service against my will. But I respect your right to operate your business in any way you like, so if you want to be ultra conservative and let the customers dictate how you run it, that's perfectly okay. And I'm truly not being flippant or sarcastic.

Originally posted by ADEhost
the point I'm making is that most people don't know what thier rights are, I happen to be one of the few that has a general idea of what I can not do, and when someone does those things to me I check with my lawyer to counter.

Their rights certainly don't include forcing me to accept their business. It simply can't be done, no matter what legal rights they THINK they have. They don't.

Originally posted by ADEhost
good example is the public park we have in our area, I go with my daughter there all the time. sometimes there are people speeding like mad ( well it is NJ ). SO what have I done, called the local mayor, had him place one of those speed indicators at the corner of the park, and attached a video camera, now the town will write about 5 tickets a day easy of people that are traveling 40mph in a 25mph zone. Now this took me 3 months to get done, and required alot of handshaking and going to the weekly town meetings. But I exersized my rights and got it OKed.

Good deal. Of course it has absolutely NO relationship to the hosting issue, but I'm all for making PUBLIC areas safe for kids as I have two of my own. Glad to hear you got something like that done.

Originally posted by hostpath.com


I can see why you might think so, but in point of fact you don't. You'll take your refund and find another host. And no court will force me to provide you service against my will. But I respect your right to operate your business in any way you like, so if you want to be ultra conservative and let the customers dictate how you run it, that's perfectly okay. And I'm truly not being flippant or sarcastic.

Their rights certainly don't include forcing me to accept their business. It simply can't be done, no matter what legal rights they THINK they have. They don't.

Good deal. Of course it has absolutely NO relationship to the hosting issue, but I'm all for making PUBLIC areas safe for kids as I have two of my own. Glad to hear you got something like that done.

Hostpath. I no doubt believe tht you think that, and I'm sure you would comply to that belief, but you have to consider the legal aspects of running a business.

http://smallbiz.biz.findlaw.com/book/17.D..html

NJ is tough with the consumer laws that is why we are trying to protect ourselves with a properly designed TOS /AUP

Mike

Freedom of speech is alive and well, and is protected under law.

Freedom of speech, however, does not infringe on my right to decide what I want and don't want on my server. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will find a medium to speak. My local newspaper is not obligated to publish my opinion.

If a group has something they want to say, their freedom of speech is protected. They may have to take their business elsewhere, but they can say it.

If no-one will take their business, they can buy a server and put it in their basement.

Thus, their freedom of speech is fully protected.

Originally posted by Lurleene
Freedom of speech is alive and well, and is protected under law.

Freedom of speech, however, does not infringe on my right to decide what I want and don't want on my server. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will find a medium to speak. My local newspaper is not obligated to publish my opinion.

If a group has something they want to say, their freedom of speech is protected. They may have to take their business elsewhere, but they can say it.

If no-one will take their business, they can buy a server and put it in their basement.

Thus, their freedom of speech is fully protected.

Hi there, we are no longer talking about Freedom of speach as defined within the consitution but along the business end with the rights of consumers vs. the rights of business owners. But your view are no the less right as long as you don't deal with the public.

Once you deal with the public you are forever having to deal with the laws established within your community, county, state and federal. but my point so long ago lost within this thread that, AS a business owner, has to define, what is tolarable if one is to prevent speach from happening within an envionment. News papers have advertising guildlines of what they will and will not print, same thing must be created within the web hosting community, what can and can not be tolerated.

good example of what could happen is Yahoo and the Nazi issue they had with france. Yahoo france can not have any nazi stuff, but yahoo USA can. French government tried to force it to exsist everywhere within the yahoo community but they found out they could not. Point is that Yahoo had to conform to that nations law because they had a physical point there. Same thing with a hosting company, you must comply with the rules and regulation of the nation and state in question you do in business.

mike

If I understand what you're saying, everyone -- including you -- agree that hosts have a right to disallow certain content on their site if they wish, as long as they don't create a pattern of discrimination against race, color, sex, or creed.

So what you're saying is that you prefer to run a business that allows all content? If that's it, I have no beef :D . I fully respect the right of other companies to host the most deplorable of sites :stickout -- but I will keep to my credo that allows me to potentially shut down a site for its content (which I have not yet done in my nearly 3 years of hosting).

Originally posted by ADEhost
Hostpath. I no doubt believe tht you think that, and I'm sure you would comply to that belief, but you have to consider the legal aspects of running a business.

Owning and operating several businesses, both online and offline, I fully consider the legal aspects of running a business. And I stand firmly behind what I've already said. In fact, just to be sure, I ran this discussion past two attorneys: my own, and my neice (she graduated Harvard and practices corporate law) and they both seem to agree with my opinion on the issue.

So long as the hosting fees are refunded, you may terminate at will and there is no issue.

Originally posted by Lurleene
Freedom of speech, however, does not infringe on my right to decide what I want and don't want on my server. Freedom of speech doesn't guarantee that the speaker will find a medium to speak. My local newspaper is not obligated to publish my opinion.

You are exactly right. Renters of space on your server have no rights of free expression whatsoever except those you give them. The only protections they have are laws that prevent you as the business owner from ripping them off. If you want to terminate anyone's account, for any reason or no reason, just shut them down -- but refund their hosting fee and they have no legal recourse.

They may THINK they do, but they don't.

ADEHost, I only have one comment...

speech, not speach...

lol @ korbek, about time someone did correct this issue ;)

Just doing my part for free speech! I figure if we are going to express our opinions, we should at least do it properly...

Chicken posted a link to ieSpell (http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Studio/1057/Mango.html) the other day. Great little program, if you remember to use it.

:angry:
WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO TERMINATE ANYONE!!!!!!!!

I like:

"We preserve the write to exterminate everyone"

Originally posted by korbek
ADEHost, I only have one comment...

speech, not speach...

thank you for correcting my mistakes. :)

the good habit of knowing 3 tongues fluently, sometimes ( well more like frequently ) causing me to misspell words. Plus where I grew up we had to learn about 7 different languages otherwise we would not have our evening meal at the table. So imaging 16 kids ( boys and girls ) eating at different houses every night 6 nights a week with the requirements of learning the languages and customs.

To this day we all keep in touch and have very fond memories of my childhood. During high school you could easily catch us all talking in many different languages and commenting about any party without outsiders learning anything. Interesting to note that if I could ever find a similar area again to live I would move my family their in a heart beat. I guess that's why my family never left there until we all grew up and left on our way. 16 years of the most pleasant memories.

Mike

I noted your comment earlier about being a first generation American, where did your family live?

Originally posted by Rotifer
I noted your comment earlier about being a first generation American, where did your family live?

This could turn into a long story better done over brandy. To summarize;

My family has 800 years of history mostly from Europe, I still carry a family signet ( coat of arms engraved within a ring and I fly my family colors along with the American flag, and yes I have a title). My family came to the USA in 1956 and 1957 from Cuba prior to the revolution. Upon my fathers legal (<---key word ) immigration, he end up in the west coast of the USA, where for the first year he sold flowers on street corners, then he worked as a sailing ship designer and carpenter ( not many Spanish speaking people are welcomed and are considered to be taking away jobs but if your university educated you will always find work). I was born in the sixties taught English as the first language, then Latin ( NOT Spanish ) as a second, during that time, My father was recruited to work for the US navy designing most of the European and Asian commissary stores ( old joke in the family is that he designed some admirals yacht, in return he was given a job and we moved to NYC). I could happy say that, going to my fathers office I got to enjoy the Brooklyn navy yards and enjoyed it. With great luck after my 5th birthday I ended up living in NJ, away from New York City but within a 40 minute bus ride.

so that's only a drop, I have most of my diaries from my youth and that of most of my family past and the historical records of my family dating to the 12th century. One thing that is taught within my family for the last 200 years is the right not to discriminate. Due to the large amount of mixed blood within my family ( there are 5 distinct cultures the intermingle by the 1780's ) my great ...... grand father decreed that we should have no rights to judge another human being without legal grounds, he was later beheaded ( or hanged, or horse drawn, there are 6 accounts of the death but each one conflicts to the manner of the death ) because he was a nobleman by the French revolutionary committees around 1810-11. ( family clan then did a swift tactical retreat from then on into Prussia, Portugal, England and Spain )

this could rattle on for hours and you would have to be in my living room to pull out maps and books ( this is why we learn Latin from youth, to read out past and not to make the same errors twice ) and rather large volumes of Brandy, Whiskey and Vodka.

Mike

Seems to me like See Eye Host ran a press release as a cheap publicity stunt to make them look patriotic.

Lots of stuff about "rights" here - but you can throw people out of your business if you don't like them, as long as they are not a protected class (race, gender, etc).

Personally, I'd love to present a case before 12 of my peers, and see if Al Qaida could make them vote me liable for throwing them off my service. I don't think you could find a jury in this country that would award damages.

Now, if somebody just terminated an account because it was Moslem or Arab, etc, that would be different. And, anyone who discriminates on those grounds SHOULD be taken to the cleaners!

***** Made this big press release about their 24/7 team which found the site reported to the FBI and removed it from their servers....

So come on :)