Look at this message from the 2Checkout Forums. :eek: :mad: :angry:

They are sending their surveys out using the merchants email address!!!!!! This is CERTAINLY illegal.

OK I got an email from one of my customers today who had hit the reply button on the email sent to him from 2CheckOut.com - his news was good and he will be ordering more of my products, which is good for me and for 2CO. That is positive news so far.

Just one question though - why was the following text on the bottom of emails sent out in this survey?

"Important: Please note, this transaction will appear as a charge from "2CheckOut Inc" on your credit card statement."

From what I know from dealing with people I know I can expect some to get back to me wanting to know what they have been charged for.

Actually two questions - why did 2CO send the emails to customers as though it had come from me? I do not like that part either.

Anyway the results of this remain to be seen - no point crying over spilt milk - but if I get abuse because of the text at the bottom of the email and the page where the link takes people to I will forward them to 2CO.

I have a good relationship with my customers and am in email contact with them regularly. I am sure many found it unusual that they received a formal email from me with no greetings as usual. I really think 2CO should not have used my email address for this survey.

Ouch! Where is the Heart Attack smily when I need it????

:puke: <- Thats the closest I could get.

Its not illegal... Your customers are actually their customers.... They can do what they want with them...

They are forging the email header to say it was sent from your email address!!!! This is illegal and they can easily be sued for it.

Take a minute to read the message before commenting.

I've already read it all.. I use 2checkout, I've read the freaking other thread here.. That you should have replied to instead of making a new one

Its not illegal..

If you don't like what their doing, then go either to another 3rd praty proccessor, or get a real merchent account...


http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56700

Yes it is illegal to pretend you are another party, then to contact their clients representing yourself as them.

If they sent the survey as 2checkout, then it would be fine. But sending it while forging email headers to make it appear that it came from the merchants personal email account is illegal.

What the hell is so wrong with a company polling their custmers??

Are you pissing people off? If not, then what are you worried about?? I personally think its a great idea to poll the customers, hell saves me the hassle of having todo it..

What the hell is so wrong with a company polling their custmers??

What is wrong is them sendign the email with a forged header, one that says from prohacker@prohacker.com, or whatever your email address would be.

If they send the email from a sales@2checkout.com, then it is legal. If they try to represent themselves as you without your authorization, it is illegal.

So its illegal when you click the send to friend button and this forum sends your friend an email with your email address as the sender???

They are sending the email on behalf of you, just as you signed up with 2checkout, if you don't like what they are doing, you have the choice to leave.....

If you authorize it, it is legal. If they do not ask you, and on their own start emailing your customers, claiming the email is coming from you - then that is illegal.

I'm surprised you don't see this obvious point.

Originally posted by RandyD
I'm surprised you don't see this obvious point.


You authorized them todo what they want when you signed up and started using them....


And I'm surprised you care??? I don't care if they contact our customers, hell I don't give a damn if they send the email saying its from the damn pope...

If you don't like the the 2checkout wishes to run their business, you have all right to take your business else where...



From the 2CO TOS:
Client assumes full responsibility for your decision to use 2Checkout.com affiliated services.

Cancellation
Client may close their account with 2Checkout.com at any time.

Just my two cents here, Randy, before you start professing your knowledge of law, you might actually want to contact a lawyer. I do not claim to be one, but I have great confidence you are wrong.

If you have a problem with 2Checkout, go ahead and email them about their policy, as it is their policy, not this forums. Personally, I see nothing wrong in what they are doing, as in fact your customers using the 2Checkout system are really 2Checkouts.

But thats just me and my 2 cents. No lawyer here, and I assume your knowledge of internet law is limited also.

You authorized them todo what they want when you signed up and started using them....

This is not at all true. Simply by signing up for their services you do not authorize them to represent themselves as you. This is no different then them calling up your customers and saying, "Hi, this is prohacker speaking." Do you seriously think their terms of service allows this? Go back and read it and show us where any such thing is stated.

And I'm surprised you care??? I don't care if they contact our customers, hell I don't give a damn if they send the email saying its from the damn pope...

Its not whether I care or not, but whether it is legal, which it is not. Companies have to follow certain laws. You as an individual may be able to get away with forging an email header, but a company will not, as they are an easy target for law suits.

If you don't like the the 2checkout wishes to run their business, you have all right to take your business else where...

Every company must act according to the law. If they misrepresent themselves as me or you without our authorization, they are breaking the law and can be held liable for any damages they have done to your name or business.

Personally, I see nothing wrong in what they are doing, as in fact your customers using the 2Checkout system are really 2Checkouts.

What does that have to do with them claiming to be me?! Just as I can't write to my customers forging a 2checkout email header, they cannot do the same with others.

If I sent an email to my customers with the from header saying "from sales@2checkout.com", they can sue me. And if they do the same with others, others can sue them. It has nothing to do with whose customers they are.

I think you need to go back and study the law some more.. :D


Private Investigators missrepresent themselves all them time, they can say what ever they want, as long as they aren't saying they are the police, or an employee of the goverment....

BTW: You keep ranting and raving its against the law....

I gotta go for about an hour, so that should give you plenty of time to find the exact law that says you can't do what 2checkout does and what bounty hunters and PIs do...

Private Investigators missrepresent themselves all them time, they can say what ever they want, as long as they aren't saying they are the police, or an employee of the goverment....

They cannot represent themselves as another real company or individual.

Maybe I will start representing myself as prohacker. I can send emails to all your clients, and of course it is fully legal according to you.

I'm still waiting for you to show us the law.....

Like I'm waiting for you to show me 2Checkout's terms of service where they say they will contact others claiming to be you.

Client shall at all times have the ability to respond promptly to inquiries from 2CheckOut.com on behalf of Customers

I haven't bought anything though 2co but I'm sure the TOS works for all for their clients...

Now where is that law????

California Penal Code section 529 prohibits impersonating a real person. There are similar laws in every state. Now I gotta go for an hour or two. In the meantime you can get a clue.

Wow, it seems that a lot of threads are more ...passionate, lately.
Just a very basic thought: is 'A' forging email headers to claim to be 'B' legal?

Regards,
-Chris..

California Penal Code:
529. Every person who falsely personates another in either his
private or official capacity, and in such assumed character either:
1. Becomes bail or surety for any party in any proceeding
whatever, before any court or officer authorized to take such bail or
surety;
2. Verifies, publishes, acknowledges, or proves, in the name of
another person, any written instrument, with intent that the same may
be recorded, delivered, or used as true; or,
3. Does any other act whereby, if done by the person falsely
personated, he might, in any event, become liable to any suit or
prosecution, or to pay any sum of money, or to incur any charge,
forfeiture, or penalty, or whereby any benefit might accrue to the
party personating, or to any other person;
Is punishable by a fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars
($10,000), or by imprisonment in the state prison, or in a county
jail not exceeding one year, or by both such fine and imprisonment.

I have to agree with Randy on this. What if one of his customers decided to sue for spam. He would be help liable as it looks as if the email came from him direct. 2checkout should be held liable for this. Randy take this further and speak with an attorney.

I agree with Randy too!

Originally posted by NixHosting
I have to agree with Randy on this. What if one of his customers decided to sue for spam. He would be help liable as it looks as if the email came from him direct.

First, 2checkout's TOS most likely addresses the issue.

Second, Randy would NOT be responsible. The plaintiff would bear the burden of proof, and an e-mail with his address on it DOES NOT constitute proof. An investigation of the message headers would show that it originated from 2checkout's system.

Besides, a follow-up e-mail to an order that was willingly placed by a customer DOES NOT even meet the defintion of UCE...

If Randy doesn't like it, he should get a real merchant account and quit with the third party stuff. Then there would be no concern whatsoever.

"2. Verifies, publishes, acknowledges, or proves, in the name of
another person, any written instrument, with intent that the same may be recorded, delivered, or used as true;"

What they did remains illegal. It is illegal to impersonate a real person.

By the way, just the fact that the customer thinks the merchant has spammed him is already a damage to the reputation of one's business. It is not required that one need to be sued for sending the spam for damages to exist.

It is completely illegal in the same way that a TV Show publishing you or your likeness without your approval is illegal. Your character, you and your business are copyrighted to you, simple as that.

Any dissemination of the brand that is you is entirely illegal under numerous laws in every country. Of course it is illegal to impersonate another person and do business as that individual or entity.

First, 2checkout's TOS most likely addresses the issue.

People seem to assume a lot, but no one has shown anything form 2Checkout's terms of service that says they will impersonate the merchants by sending survey emails under the merchant's personal email addresses.

Originally posted by RandyD
[BWhat they did remains illegal.[/B]

It does not, if their TOS -- the TOS you agreed to -- grants them permission to do so. If you believe it's illegal, then SUE THEM in civil court or seek to have them criminally prosecuted. Unfortunatley for you:

1) No prosecutor will prosecute the case;

2) No attorney would take the case;

3) If you pursue it on your own in civil court, you will not prevail.

Even if you DID prevail, which you wouldn't, your damages would be negligible since these customers are 2checkout customers and NOT YOURS. You would recover nothing more than whatever cost you paid to sign up for their service ($49 I believe).

Speaking as someone who has studied law, your case has no merit.

Originally posted by Jeremy W.
Of course it is illegal to impersonate another person and do business as that individual or entity.

2checkout is not doing business as someone else. It is 2checkout's business, not Randy's. All you need to do to determine that is to look at the checkout screen and you'll clearly see that every customer is a customer of 2checkout.

Here's your answer: ask whose name appears on the charge.

Even if you DID prevail, which you wouldn't, your damages would be negligible since these customers are 2checkout customers and NOT YOURS.

People keep saying they are their customers, but that is irrelevant. They are impersonating you. Whether the customers are theirs or not doesn't matter. If I start calling people saying I'm you, I am breaking the law and can be sentenced to one year in prison and a $10,000 fine in the state of California.

Of course it matters. If a contract is illegal, that specific section falls apart, which is why all contracts have a clause which goes something like:

Should any part or whole of this contract be proved unlawful in an area of appropriate jurisdiction, every area, notwithstanding those in contention, shall continue to stand regardless of the outcome thereof.

Contracts are illegal all the time. Put it this way, if Enron had had Anderson sign a contract to shred illegal documents, and Anderson had signed and then defaulted they would:

1. Have had to pay the cancellation fee, regardless, unless a judge chose to waive it (which he could)
2. Be able to sue Enron

It's really simple, it's called Good Faith laws. If a company knowingly "pulls the wool" over the eyes of another company, there is actino which can be taken.

Sending e-mails "as" you, but really being from 2CO, is deceptive business practices and cause for civil action on both the civil and federal level. If you have enough people you know that have the same problem, approach an attorney.

Originally posted by hostpath.com


2checkout is not doing business as someone else. It is 2checkout's business, not Randy's. All you need to do to determine that is to look at the checkout screen and you'll clearly see that every customer is a customer of 2checkout.

Here's your answer: ask whose name appears on the charge.

As Randy is saying, he isn't concerned about 2Checkout contacting the customers. They are spoofing his email address.

Forget about who's customers they are. Nobody is arguing that point at all (except you) and it really doesn't have any bearing.

They are sending an email as if it was from him. That is the issue at hand. If they were simply contacting them, that wouldn't be a problem.

2checkout is not doing business as someone else.

I can only conclude you haven't read the thread through. 2checkout is sending survey emails, forging the from header to say it is coming from the merchants personal email addresses (not from 2checkout). They are impersonating these individuals and misleading the customers (whose customers does not matter at all).

When asked why 2checkout was spoofing the from header and impersonating the merchants, one of their employees replied in their forums:

"Regarding your other question: Many of the anti-survey posts in here included comments about 2checkout.com's invisibility being important to them. They don't want it to appear as if they have a 'babysitter" monitoring their sales which is why the survey was sent out as it was. "

In other words, they admit they have spoofed the email headers, and they never consulted the merchants to get their permissions.

:puke:

I'll not argue it any further. My advice: sue away! Just remember that you're bound under the laws of Ohio, not California. Oh, and make sure that you can prove monetary damages -- otherwise your only recourse is to find someone who will prosecute them (good luck) or stop using them.

If it's a federal law (which impersonation of character is) then it doesn't really matter. I would be very surprised if Ohio didn't have their own such laws anyways. Otherwise, I could use your signature.

Originally posted by Jeremy W.
If it's a federal law (which impersonation of character is) then it doesn't really matter. I would be very surprised if Ohio didn't have their own such laws anyways. Otherwise, I could use your signature.

Like I said, it all depends on the TOS which I haven't been provided. 2checkout merchants may have granted them the right to use their e-mail address when they signed up. If so, no case.

But why assume that? Its like saying maybe their TOS says they can beat me with a stick and take my wallet. Well, the fact is their terms of service does not say that. So why argue hypothetically when you dont know what their TOS says?

Its quite simple. They are impersonating other businesses and sending emails as those businesses. It is a crime.

If I send emails as sales@2checkout.com, it would be a crime. And if they do the same with my business or your business without permission it is a crime.

Originally posted by RandyD
If I send emails as sales@2checkout.com, it would be a crime.

Unless they entered an agreement with you that allows you to do so. If you want to provide me a link to their TOS, then I'll know better what agreement you have with them. Otherwise, neither side has the compelling argument.

If you feel they are in the wrong:

1) Quit; or

2) Have them criminally prosecuted; or

3) Sue them in civil court.

That's it. Debating it here serves no further purpose without their TOS to digest.

You can find their tos at https://sellers.2checkout.com/serviceterms.htm

Originally posted by hostpath.com


Unless they entered an agreement with you that allows you to do so. If you want to provide me a link to their TOS, then I'll know better what agreement you have with them. Otherwise, neither side has the compelling argument.



drug users and dealers have agreements too, but that doesn't make their business legal.

Federal or state law is above any TOS

Originally posted by TedS
You can find their tos at https://sellers.2checkout.com/serviceterms.htm

Thanks. Is that the most recent TOS? It has a 2001 copyright on it, so I'm wondering if there is not a newer version.

If that is their CURRENT TOS, then they've failed to include language that allows them the right to use the client's name when contacting 2checkout's customers. All it would require is one line in the TOS.

Let me know if there is a newer one, but if this is the most current then they have not adequately (other than their general limitation of liability) protected themselves.

Originally posted by Atlonim
drug users and dealers have agreements too, but that doesn't make their businees legal. Federal or state law is above any TOS

Incorrect. That is a very naive view on how the law actually works.

If that is their CURRENT TOS, then they've failed to include language that allows them the right to use the client's name when contacting 2checkout's customers.

Even then, I see a difference between using a clients name (i.e. Dear Sir, you bought such and such from Business XYZ) and using their personal email address in the from header for an unrelated email survey. Remember, one of the purposes of the survey, according to 2checkout, is to increase name recognition for 2checkout. It is certainly a shady business practice to make such an email appear to come from you.

Originally posted by RandyD
Even then, I see a difference between using a clients name (i.e. Dear Sir, you bought such and such from Business XYZ) and using their personal email address in the from header for an unrelated email survey.

You may see a difference, but they could put language in their TOS that would allow them to do it and offer you no recourse.

Originally posted by hostpath.com


Incorrect. That is a very naive view on how the law actually works.

maybe naive but correct. Impersonating is not legal by any US civil or criminal law.

You may see a difference, but they could put language in their TOS that would allow them to do it and offer you no recourse.
They could, but they haven't. WHy all this hypothetical nonsense.

Their terms of service are there for you to read. Nothing there allows them to impersonate your business without your authorization. Tomorrow if they open their html editor and slap together a few pages on their website saying they have the right to own your business name and copyrights, does it suddenly become valid? Use your common sense.

corporate impersonation happens all the time and is quite legal through contracts and agreements. almost every merchant account is technically impersonating you and using your company when they bill under your name. most resellers also fall into the same category as their parent company uses their name in the service.

it issue is contractually, does the TOS allow them to use your name or not. the tos I found seems to suggest now but if there's an extended or more recent tos it may say otherwise.

Originally posted by RandyD
Tomorrow if they open their html editor and slap together a few pages on their website saying they have the right to own your business name and copyrights, does it suddenly become valid? Use your common sense.

contracts have very basic requirements, in relevance to this issue, an offer is made, the offer is clearly accepted and thus something is exchanged. there also must be a meeting of the minds (understanding of what both sides are agreeing to). and of course, a contract can not force you to sign or agree.

if 2checkout states that you agree to grant them use of your name for purposes of condicting business, then yes, they have that right. if they update their contract in the manner they express (be it update it and notify people or notify then update, ...), that too is legal.

the point is they can not force you to agree to the tos but they can make it a requirement in forming your relationship. if you dont agree, you dont get service... plain and simple

Originally posted by TedS
corporate impersonation happens all the time and is quite legal through contracts and agreements. almost every merchant account is technically impersonating you and using your company when they bill under your name. most resellers also fall into the same category as their parent company uses their name in the service.


Not true. As a merchant account owner you're billing the customer and using bank (or other financial institution) to process the transaction (which nothing has to do with billing itself).

All other companies which provide payment and/or billing services such a Paypal or 2checkout are only authorized to bill your customers but they're not authorized to impersonate your business in any case.

That's why you read something like that: Paypal is authorized payment processor for "Yourcompany, blah, blah..."

Don't know if you have noticed this before but the recurring billing email receipt from 2checkout to your customer uses your company's email address as the sender eventho it is 2checkout sending them out.

Though I'm not sure whether it's illegal or not, you'll have great difficulty, as others mentioned, getting anyone to take the case if you don't have merit. Even if they are impersonating you wrongly, so far it hasn't bothered anyone, so even if you DID get someone to take the case, you'd sound like a loon in front of a judge. Also, I believe you are bound by the law in the state in which the company operates. Not sure, but that would be my guess.

Originally posted by The Prohacker
If you don't like what their doing, then go either to another 3rd party proccessor, or get a real merchent account...

Out of all the numerous rants I have heard about the issue, this is the one I respect the best. If you don't like it, don't let the door it you in the...... well you know what I mean.
I think I have spent more time just reading the Loooong drawn out rants and threats. Sh*t or get off the pot, but please stop whining already. Do you have ideas?? Any suggestions?? No, you just have RANTS. Chicken had some really good points on the 2CO thread, he didn't rant and rave, gave some ideas... Others had some good ideas too.
IMHO:stickout

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by The Prohacker
If you don't like what their doing, then go either to another 3rd party proccessor, or get a real merchent account...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Out of all the numerous rants I have heard about the issue, this is the one I respect the best. If you don't like it, don't let the door it you in the...... well you know what I mean.
I think I have spent more time just reading the Loooong drawn out rants and threats. Sh*t or get off the pot, but please stop whining already. Do you have ideas?? Any suggestions?? No, you just have RANTS. Chicken had some really good points on the 2CO thread, he didn't rant and rave, gave some ideas... Others had some good ideas too.
IMHO

First clarify what you want to say (You are saying 2 completely opposite things):
Do you have ideas?? Any suggestions?? No, you just have RANTS.

and then:

... Others had some good ideas too.

If I don't like something I have the right to say it loud! I don't like the 2checkout idea to send survey to my customers. If tomorrow 2checkout raises their fees 100% are you going to simply change your cc processing company without "whining"? I doubt it!
And please don't give advices to the others what to do!

Peter

Originally posted by poncho2000
And please don't give advices to the others what to do!

By posting their complaints here, they are opening themselves to advice on the issue. If they aren't interested in feedback, then this is the wrong place to post.

By posting their complaints here, they are opening themselves to advice on the issue. If they aren't interested in feedback, then this is the wrong place to post.


Generally I don't get into this but... hostpath.com, from the beggining you weren't giving suggetions, you were arguing with him, and what I found the most unbelievable is that you argued that 2CO's TOS should cover it, and you hadn't even read it :rolleyes:.

What's more, your actually trying to say that a TOS will cover any situation, but as was said federal law is federal law, If I put in my TOS that I can freely come to your house and steal your wallet, then shoot you, what do you think the government will do? Accept my TOS as covering my actions?

My suggestion for the future is simple: before you start arguing law and TOS protection, I'd suggest studying a little more law yourself.

Randy is 100% correct in that 2CheckOut broke the law, and I'm surprised ProHacker and hostpath don't see it.

I'll try to spare alot of detail, so I'll just rebut a couple of fallacies.

One, because an attorney may not take a case does not mean you don't have a good case; most of the time it's because they can't make enough money off of it or they are ignorant in that area of law and don't want to admit it. To say this case has no merit is plain ignorance of US statutes.

Two, yes if the case was won, much more than $49 could legally be awarded. Need I quote all of the different types of damages that can be awarded, from inconsequential to punitive.

However, I believe this should be pursued as a criminal matter first.

FWIW, I've studied and practiced law pro se for over 10 years; after having attorneys that I could not trust.

If this is a such a big deal for you, why weren't you on here complaining when 2checkout impersonated you when sending out order receipts and confirmations?

Hmm... It's with his permission and IS covered in the TOS?

Originally posted by comphosting
My suggestion for the future is simple: before you start arguing law and TOS protection, I'd suggest studying a little more law yourself.

Oh, I've studied the law regarding TOS quite extensively. Without going into the details and naming names, it became a necessity after I was on the short end of a dispute that involved "illegal" actions on the part of the other party (company). While the actions the other company took were illegal in and of themselves, I could not take successful action against the company because they had specific language in their TOS in which I granted them the right to do what they did and indemnified them against a lawsuit.

My attorney could do nothing for me, except to say: "Yeah, it's not legal, but you've given away your rights on the issue. And next time have me read the document first."

He took the matter to an attorney's specialty group for their opinion on the matter, and they came back with the very same opinion, unfortunately. Based on that, I decided to begin researching contract law myself to see if I could find any precedent or legal opinion that would go in my favor. I spent a long time at it and found nothing -- except a lot of legal precedent IN FAVOR of the company publishing the TOS and against the second party.

However, I did learn a lesson about fully reading and understanding everything in a TOS before agreeing to the terms.

Yeah, it's illegal to impersonate another entity. But thousands of McDonald's franchisees run restaurants advertising themselves as McDonald's -- when in fact they are not. Why? Because McDonald's, in their franchise agreement, give the franchisee permission to do so.

And regarding the specifics of the TOS for 2CO:
I said their TOS should have language in it to allow them to do what they did. I can't see any smart company doing that without specific permission within the TOS. I didn't have access to the TOS. After a link to it was posted, you can see above that I pointed out that they didn't have language therein to protect their actions.

To do what they did without specific language supporting that action is foolhardy, if they don't have a more up to day TOS than the one dated 2001.

Amendments and Modifications
Client understands that 2Checkout.com Inc. reserves the right to modify the 2Checkout.com service agreement at any time.

Originally posted by Sesran
Amendments and Modifications
Client understands that 2Checkout.com Inc. reserves the right to modify the 2Checkout.com service agreement at any time.

Yep, I'd say that knocks out any criminal or civil action. I thought the customers said there was nothing in the TOS that allowed them to do it. Looks like someone needs to learn how to read.

Amendments and Modifications
Client understands that 2Checkout.com Inc. reserves the right to modify the 2Checkout.com service agreement at any time.

I really can't believe some of you are so thick headed. Just because someone can change their terms of service at any time, does not mean that they can do anything without informing the other party!

Tomorrow if they open their html editor to change their terms of service page to say they can enter the client's house and rummage through their drawers looking for spare change, that does not make it legal - not if it hasn't been informed to the other party, and not if the other party had not agreed to it.

There have been no announced changes in the terms of service from 2checkout.

And even if there was such a thing that happened it wouldn't make it retroactive. Randy, talk to an attorney and see what they say. A consultation shoudlnt' cost you anything and you'll know better after that initial meeting.