Hi,

I am starting my own forum (more on that in a few days), but which software is the best? I like vBulleting but I read that Ikonboard os good too. It is important that it is efficient coded, and redundant so it can grow to enormous proportions. I know vBulletin can handle this, but others?

Jacco

A nice free forum software is phpBB (http://www.phpbb.com/). I recommend you check it out.

I second phpBB - dead easy to install ;)

Ibforums is great. Stable version 1.0 has been released.

Vbulletin is probably the best but you have to pay for it.
I think invisionboard is great, better than ikonboard because its php/mysql so less resource intensive.
www.invisionboard.com

Another vote for phpbb. I just installed it a few days ago and I couldn't believe how easy it was to install. Besides, being php/mysql based, that should address your concerns about it being able to handle lots of traffic, no? And it's got a great design/layout. And it's free. Wow. What a combination...

Vito

I recommend phpBB, very good board.

I recommend phpBB2, its a really great forum.

Great support and active people creating styles,mods,etc.

Phpbb.com

Yes, phpbb is a great forum. But you can't judge a forum on how easy it is to install. - Madness! :D


VB rocks and always will rock better than the others. It is in a class of it's own.

My vote goes for new invisionboard.
Easy to install
Great features
Fast too.
Check for yourself. Final release has arrived.
http://www.invisionboard.com/

thanks

gotta be XMB! very fast...simple...FREE...competition for vB!! very good!

check mine at: www.digitalfields.co.uk

or their site: xmbforum.com

I would say invisionboard or XMB. I don't like the look of phpBB although it is a good forum.

Vbulletin.com

DO I really have to explain why?????



:)))

Yes you do! Why pay 120$+ for a program that is not nearly as good and easy as www.invisionboard.com which is also free?

Invision m8!! Nothing else! :)

Originally posted by ShareFile
Yes you do! Why pay 120$+ for a program that is not nearly as good and easy as www.invisionboard.com which is also free?

Invision m8!! Nothing else! :)

You ask him to explain why, but then you say that it is "not nearly as good or easy" and then you don't post YOUR reasons? Why is vBulletin not nearly as good as it? I bought vBulletin back in April and feel is was way more than worth the $160.

vBulletin will always be king in my opinion however phpBB is a great free alternative :)

Anyway, in response to the original question...

I bought vBulletin back in April and I love it, I think it is excellent. Maybe it is because of the fact that I came from UBB, which was such a bandwidth hog that I was going between 3-5GB over my limit each month! Each extra GB was $10 with my old host if you went over. With a $20 hosting fee that is damn near the cost of a vBulletin leased license! I think it is excellent and well worth the $160 for the owned license ($85 for the leased I think), one of the best web purchases I ever made :)

One other thing, I find the template system with vBulletin much easier to work with than that of phpBB.

XMB!! R00ls!

Having reviewed all of the above, and since I run a million page view forum on vB (and several smaller ones on other boards), I can say that vB is far and away a better board.

phpbb is the best free board I have seen, but it in no way compares to vB (we can go through the rounds if you want, but it isn't worth anyone's time).

I think I will go with vBulletin (see my vBulletin Hosting topic in the Ad section), because of it full power and good support. Just one question: Is it worth to take the leased license (with member area access as long as you have the license), owned license ($30 per year after the first year for member area) or the hosted option on http://www.vbulletinhosting.com . The member area is important for me because of upgrades etc.

Jacco

XMB?!?!?!?! unless they've recently released a new version, its old, slow code.

"Processed in 0.6598531 seconds, 25 queries"

thats not that fast... 25 queries is outragous.
IBforums isn't quite as fast as vB i think, and openBB is faster than both.

yeah...
[ Script Execution time: 0.1960 ] [ 10 queries used ] [ GZIP Enabled ] [ Server Load: 0.89 ] for IBForums. XMB is more than 3 times as slow.

and i'm pretty sure oBB is down close to .1, with a project in the works that has it down to less than .05

Where do you host your 1 million pageview site?

Originally posted by Jeremy W.
Having reviewed all of the above, and since I run a million page view forum on vB (and several smaller ones on other boards), I can say that vB is far and away a better board.

phpbb is the best free board I have seen, but it in no way compares to vB (we can go through the rounds if you want, but it isn't worth anyone's time).

Originally posted by Blikje
I think I will go with vBulletin (see my vBulletin Hosting topic in the Ad section), because of it full power and good support. Just one question: Is it worth to take the leased license (with member area access as long as you have the license), owned license ($30 per year after the first year for member area) or the hosted option on http://www.vbulletinhosting.com . The member area is important for me because of upgrades etc.

Jacco

With the leased license you have to stop using it after the year you paid for I believe, or pay the extra $85 for each additional year. The owned license you pay $160 for the software and use it as long as you want, but after a year you lose access to the Member's Area where you can download updates. Pay the $30 fee and get another year of access to the member's area for another year of downloads :)

So basically, would you rather pay $85 now and then have to remove it in a year, or continue paying $85 a year, or shell out $160 right now and pay $30 a year after that?

Originally posted by secludo
So basically, would you rather pay $85 now and then have to remove it in a year, or continue paying $85 a year, or shell out $160 right now and pay $30 a year after that?

The $85 dollar is safer if the forum turns out to be no success.

Jacco

It most certainly is :) My forum was already popular from when I was using UBB, I bought the owned license.

Originally posted by Blikje
Where do you host your 1 million pageview site?



Our company: www.barefooting.com

We just moved from XMB to InvisionBoard - I like IB a lot lot better than XMB - personal preference really!

Who said XMB? :eek: :eek:

I would use InvisionBoard. I've been using it the last two weeks from Ikonboard, and it's very stable, has excellent features, and cuts down on the bandwidth (provided you are not using a graphically intense skin.)


Here are my reasons why I like it:

- Easy installation
- Powerful features, as a user AND as an admin
- Easier customization
- FREE
- Very Stable (for a v1.0 release)
- compatible with most web browsers

Things to keep in mind:

- requires php4 and mySQL
- php and DBM versions are on the way

Incidentally, the person who started IkonBoard left that project to work on InvisionBoard. It's very slick.

I vote for Invisionboard. No, I don't dislike vBulletin...I've installed it for several people. But for a free version, Invisionboard is awesome.

Things to keep in mind (to answer the ORIGNIAL question, which was which BB to go with). Lots of hosts actually FORBID Ikonboard (and UBB) because of stress on the servers. Some of this may be poor programming, some because of the inherent nature of a Perl board. Either way, when you're considering a board (or any script, for that matter) consider that.

With Invisionboard, I get to be part of a community of early users, which means I can suggest features (doesn't mean they have to TAKE my suggestions, but suggestions are taken a lot more seriously than most "established" script writers). I get to tweak it my way (not ALWAYS a great idea ::grin::)

Whatever you choose, though,check with your host; make sure they don't actually forbid it. Shop around; visit the forums of the various boards. (Take what some folks say with a grain of salt, tho). And good luck with your board. Have fun with it!

Originally posted by Blikje
Hi,

I am starting my own forum (more on that in a few days), but which software is the best? I like vBulleting but I read that Ikonboard os good too. It is important that it is efficient coded, and redundant so it can grow to enormous proportions. I know vBulletin can handle this, but others?

Jacco

Well for starters, check this board out. See what WHT is running and see how many posts they have in archive and how fast it loads and such.

I used quite few in the past few years and the only one I liked was/is IkonBoard. I haven't used it in awhile but it uses mySQL and few other DB options.

Use something that is fast and something that if you were to load 30 of them on other Virt. Sites it would get a toll on your server...

I love my vBulletin!!! :D

:puke:Jelsoft on the other hand is another story!:angry: :angry: :crap: :angry:

What do you mean about Jelsoft?

Originally posted by YourHostSucks
I love my vBulletin!!! :D

:puke:Jelsoft on the other hand is another story!:angry: :angry: :crap: :angry:

I do not care to get into it really...
Do a search on this forum.. you will find out :D

wow, i just checked out the invisionboard site and i must say i'm impressed, and the bonus is it's free!! :D

We use XMB and it stinks. The only reason we set it up was that we thought it would be nice to show off the bb which will install from within Cpanel.

XMB has intermittent problems with topping a thread. The admin section is a pain with which to work. If you have a special restricted forum (for instance: a forum set up ONLY for resellers) it will not allow you to add users one at a time. When setting it up, it will sometimes add blank forums, without you telling it to do so. You end up having to enter your database and delete the blank tables. There were other things I can't think of now, but this was enough.

We have been looking at InvisionBoard and will probably set it up this week. I wish there was an easy way to import data from XMB. If you know of one, please let me know.

-Lamar

Both vbulliten and Phpbb are great forums. Its a toss up between which is better. Vbulletin gots some great features but phbb is great and it only costs $0. I use phpbb and for the price tag of $0 it couldnt get any better. You can view my phpbb forum at
http://tzdesigns.net/forum/index.php

Originally posted by tzdesigner
Both vbulliten and Phpbb are great forums. Its a toss up between which is better. Vbulletin gots some great features but phbb is great and it only costs $0. I use phpbb and for the price tag of $0 it couldnt get any better. You can view my phpbb forum at
http://tzdesigns.net/forum/index.php

Nice looking forum. Does it take long to customize?

not really the longest part is to come up with the colors. After that its up to you. The finall product took me 2 hours.

www.ringquest.com is a million page-view vBulletin board. The entire site is based on vBulletin, and I have yet to see a phpbb board which comes anywhere near the features, functionality, speed, extensibility, user friendliness, etc of RingQuest, never mind WHT or SitePoint.

I vote for InvisionBoard. Why? It is free, fast, and just better than vB, because it is free :)

Just because it is free does NOT make it better than vB...
It is so not better than vB! :angry:

:D

Originally posted by YourHostSucks
Just because it is free does NOT make it better than vB...
It is so not better than vB! :angry:

:D

I say download all the freebie boards, install them test them... see which you like best and stick with it.

Personally I don't know why I would pay for a BB when I get a freebie one. There are so many out there that are free. It's no longer the days where you only had 3 major ones and 2 of 3 you had to pay for.

If you got a demand and you are a corporate office and don't want to show that you are using freebies than buy a BBoard. Make it look like you've got money. If you can't afford it get a freebie.

As we use phpBB, we're a bit biased. But, I think phpBB is a great board, free or not.

Why not anyone mention about YABBSE (not gold)?

Take a tour on www.phptalk.com


Easy to administrate and good-looking. One of the most important property according to me it consumes less bandwidth than others.

this is probably a stupid question, but does anyone know of any good boards that use ASP and msSQL?

There aren't many, simply because of the cost of SQL Server. Snitz may, not sure. I'm helping develop a .NET board which will run on the xNix .NET framework and will connect ot SQL Server, MySQL, PostgreSQL and Oracle (with more db's to come).

vB has a tendency to look a lot more professional than various other boards. so while i will gripe spending that extra money on vB, rather soon, i will have a clean cut board that doesn't look like a "recreational" forum.

with that said, vB gets the thumbs up. i was even able to install the lite version relatively easy (and that is good for a person with minimal coding skills)...

-fsn

I run XMB on a site I do for fun, figured since I run CPanel I'd install it there to check it out and I like it. Don't know how fast it would be with a lot of users but I like the look of it and haven't had any of the problems talked about in this theread. PHPbb is a good forum, I just don't like how version 2.XX looks at all, just me though. I used to use Ikonboard on a site and loved it other than the fact that it got slow after it got popular, which is why if I needed to start a forum now or recommend one it'd be Invisionboard because it looks and functions like Ikonboard, which as far as the look and features is the best IMO.

yabb se for the simple fact it keeps its list of threads you have read on the server somehow and not in a cookie which means that no matter what computer you view the board from, it knows what threads you have read.

Also if I read a few threads and go away for a few hours and come back the ones I never read are still marked as unread whereas with VB etc they have all been marked read which is annoying to say the least

In vB it is stored on the server as well, however a "new thread" is defined as one which is new since you last visited. It isn't "unread threads", it's "new threads", which is where the distinction is. Personal preference I guess.

phpBB has easy setup and works with many different databases. ive also used snitz forums, but its asp and a lot of guys here run linux with no Chili =)

Chili and iASP are evil anyways.

I'll give vB the two thumbs up, if you can spare the cash and have big plans for your forum I suggest vB all the way, very feature rich, it's worth every cent I paid for it. :cool:

www.invisionboard.com

I think this is the best bulletin board software that is 100% free today. It is just as good as vbb, but is 100% FREEE!

Not sure about worth every cent..
Would be if it didn't come with Jelsoft and their flunkies harassing people about running a pirated board/or the famous "Enter your LIC info into your profile NOW!" when you have a couple license's :eek:

Originally posted by phpcoder

It is just as good as vbb

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Originally posted by YourHostSucks
Not sure about worth every cent..
Would be if it didn't come with Jelsoft and their flunkies harassing people about running a pirated board/or the famous "Enter your LIC info into your profile NOW!" when you have a couple license's :eek:

Yes because companies trying to find people who use their software illegally is BAD. Gotcha, duly noted.

All these people who think other boards are better than vB simply have never tried it. I issued the challenge before and I will again. Find me a site that uses a free board which has the features, stability, speed, extensibility and user friendliness of www.ringquest.com

The vB admin interface is really amazing. I think vB is definately the better board, but like someone said if you can't shell out $160 ($85 for a year license) then the free ones are really good also.

Originally posted by Jeremy W.


Yes because companies trying to find people who use their software illegally is BAD. Gotcha, duly noted.

All these people who think other boards are better than vB simply have never tried it. I issued the challenge before and I will again. Find me a site that uses a free board which has the features, stability, speed, extensibility and user friendliness of www.ringquest.com

Give me a few months, and I will show you a board. I just started a new project which is an amazing community forum site. I plan to be using a free bulletin board (Invision Board). Wait untill you use how fast it is.

Invision Board and Ikonboard PHP will/are faster than vvb 2.2.6! At least the stats say that.

Originally posted by phpcoder


Give me a few months, and I will show you a board. I just started a new project which is an amazing community forum site. I plan to be using a free bulletin board (Invision Board). Wait untill you use how fast it is.

Invision Board and Ikonboard PHP will/are faster than vvb 2.2.6! At least the stats say that.

Invision board looks very much like Ikonboard. IB is comming out with a new layout/style in PHP.

I think people should focus on major mones, if free, give code out and make it better instead of braching out every 6 months and new ones come out. But than again that's what makes standards and makes boards better, fork out more features to keep up with the paying or the freebies.

There will be boards that will use flat based text/database and such. Those are for the ones that use the 3-4$/month hosting with no db end.

I say, why pay for it when you can get it free. Make sure you invest and research that the 'freebie' won't quit on you and start charging you, next week. I've seen lots that do that or they used to do it. You get a freebie, you donate, you give code to make it better and suddenly everything changes overnight asking for money.

my 2c

I'll throw my vote in for Invision Board.

Currently, I use phpBB on my forums because there's a built-in gallery mod that I use extensivly for my members, and I kinda rely on that, until at least Invision Board comes out with something similar.

phpBB2 is great, because it's no-frills. It is a fast, simple, full featured board with great support and great community around it.

Invision Board.. I like it a LOT. As for features.. there's nothing that comes close to this board. VB, phpBB, UBB, nothing. If you look at the 'little' things that this board has.. it's uncomparable. The code buttons have two modes, Guided and Normal. The guided version uses JavaScript prompt boxes, and the normal version does what is done in VB, just opens and closes the captions. If you check out the administration in IBF, nothing compares. You have more options than you know what to do with. And of course... you can modify the board to look EXACTLY like VB (if that's your thing) with relative ease.

VB, excellent board. Worth the money? Not when there's free boards that are as feature-full, fast, and secure as that. It's not really worth it.

Let's put a few things in perspective... the amount of users a forum can handle is not very dependant on the coding of the forum, but rather the structure of the table system, and the database they are using. mySQL is the popular choice for all these boards, and thus, performance is just about the same. It's based on your server at that point. Next, the features from IBF and VB are the same and in IBFs case, above and beyond. There's not one feature in VB that IBF doesn't have.. and improve upon in some regards. I'll stick with the free versions myself, because they have a great community and it's merely a matter of time until they catch up to the big boys.

I think there is some notion in that if something is free... it's not nearly as good quality. I know better, and I'm loving phpBB (and maybe at some point, IBF).

Originally posted by Hercules
I'll throw my vote in for Invision Board.

Currently, I use phpBB on my forums because there's a built-in gallery mod that I use extensivly for my members, and I kinda rely on that, until at least Invision Board comes out with something similar.

phpBB2 is great, because it's no-frills. It is a fast, simple, full featured board with great support and great community around it.

Invision Board.. I like it a LOT. As for features.. there's nothing that comes close to this board. VB, phpBB, UBB, nothing. If you look at the 'little' things that this board has.. it's uncomparable. The code buttons have two modes, Guided and Normal. The guided version uses JavaScript prompt boxes, and the normal version does what is done in VB, just opens and closes the captions. If you check out the administration in IBF, nothing compares. You have more options than you know what to do with. And of course... you can modify the board to look EXACTLY like VB (if that's your thing) with relative ease.

VB, excellent board. Worth the money? Not when there's free boards that are as feature-full, fast, and secure as that. It's not really worth it.

Let's put a few things in perspective... the amount of users a forum can handle is not very dependant on the coding of the forum, but rather the structure of the table system, and the database they are using. mySQL is the popular choice for all these boards, and thus, performance is just about the same. It's based on your server at that point. Next, the features from IBF and VB are the same and in IBFs case, above and beyond. There's not one feature in VB that IBF doesn't have.. and improve upon in some regards. I'll stick with the free versions myself, because they have a great community and it's merely a matter of time until they catch up to the big boys.

I think there is some notion in that if something is free... it's not nearly as good quality. I know better, and I'm loving phpBB (and maybe at some point, IBF).

It would be nice to have a site dedicated that has some sort of benchmarking specs on all these boards. It is sometimes hard to go to every forum site, grab the specs and cross-refernce them against each-other.

It would be nice to have all (available) specs on a side, and start plugging forums in that have(s) and don't have(s).

eCommerce shopping carts (freebies) are getting up to speed as well. Makes Miva look old and out of style; and a nightmare to admin. No wonder 3rd party developers starting giving out good deals on addons/modules. (off topic but similar)

Ou man... do I smell a troll around here :dgrin:

Invision Board is the best free forum software out there.

Originally posted by Hercules
And of course... you can modify the board to look EXACTLY like VB (if that's your thing) with relative ease.If youd like to see how close I got it to vB (although i ahve recently been working on a few paying jobs, so this has been put on the backburner) check out this (http://www.ibetas.net/forums/index.php?skinid=3) (and try to remember that this is Invision Board :) ) if you want to click any of the links, you'll ever have to register and change your skin, or add '&skinid=3' to the end of every link ;)

Originally posted by Jeremy W.


Our company: www.barefooting.com I don't see how a forum with 10 members and 350 posts could possibly get 1,000,000 pageviews... I have yet to find a vB board at that link...

FnArFy, that is one nice skin/theme, at first i thought it was VB:)
Will you be releasing that theme?

while there are many nice boards , some that cost , others that dont . I would have to say im impressed with invision board . With this software , i dont see any reason to pay for a license from vB . I do agree that there should be some sort of benchmark test to see what forums are doing what the fastest .

i installed invision Board on my server to see exactly how this board has the "same features as Invision Board, and in this case more than vB".

Have any of the people who say another board beats out vB in features, etc. ever looked inside the vB admin control panel? Tons of little handy features available in vbulletin which arn't available in the free boards.

Originally posted by FnArFy
I don't see how a forum with 10 members and 350 posts could possibly get 1,000,000 pageviews... I have yet to find a vB board at that link...

New to reading, are we? Someone asked where RingQuest (www.ringquest.com) was hosted. That is where it is hosted.

Now, as far as looking like vB: well done, some template mods and you spit out some HTML. If you really want a feature tour of vB just ask and hands down it will win, simple.

Originally posted by dgessler
i installed invision Board on my server to see exactly how this board has the "same features as Invision Board, and in this case more than vB".

Have any of the people who say another board beats out vB in features, etc. ever looked inside the vB admin control panel? Tons of little handy features available in vbulletin which arn't available in the free boards. Hi dgessler, we are planning to install a forum for our customers in the near future, and been considering about Invision Board for a while. I run another VB forum and know how good it is, but have never tried ibforums. Are you saying that VB is better?

Thanks for the time and tips

Regards
Jim

Well my views are as follows based on installing, dealing with tech support and the forums.

this is based on forums that do anywhere from 1 gig to 3 gigs per day in and have an active user base.


for windows, I find :

paid solution :

vBulletin being the overall best in support & forum help, cpu usage, and reliability. Installing it takes some work ( at least for me), but the documentation is very good so all you have to do is read the manual carefully.

Free solution :

None that I have been requested to install so I have no views

for Unix, I find :

Paid Solution

never been asked to install and I don't think that there is one on my unix side of my servers

Free Solution :

PHPbb so far is the winner under the forum help, cpu usage, instalation and reliablity. I find that the features are weak and would like to see more of them.

also there are new solutions being created that I've installed but, they are not even in the 1 gig a day range so I cannot crunch the numbers to give conclusive advice.

Mike

Darn. I didn't know about Invision but i'm using phpbb which is to me is way faster than ikonboard. The bad thing about phpbb is that the template is hard to modify, plus they lack features that most of these boards come with.

Originally posted by FHJim
Hi dgessler, we are planning to install a forum for our customers in the near future, and been considering about Invision Board for a while. I run another VB forum and know how good it is, but have never tried ibforums. Are you saying that VB is better?

Thanks for the time and tips

Regards
Jim

Well, Invision Board is really nice, features were really a lot, but overall vB is best (but of course will cost). Just the way vB handles templates, extra options you can fiddle with, it's (I think) the better choice over Invision Board, but then invision is free, and having multiple copies of vB would be fairly costly. But yes, I'm saying vB is better.

I think that Invision Board's template system is way better. And It seems like they are always updating the version of it.

Huh. Get vBulletin and Invision Board's control panel side by side and work with the templates. Not to put down IB's template system which is awesome, but vBulletin's system seems even easier to manage. The hundreds of vB templates all sorted into categories ready for you to edit by expanding and collapsing the cat's, and even restore back to it's original form if you screw something up. They have a template search feature where you can search thru all templates for specific keywords, a tool to find and replace in all templates. A tool to find keywords in a template and a preview tool.

I think it's all a matter of cash, if you're willing to spend money on something like this, then you're good with vBulletin with its all around features and handy tools. I just can't stand someone actually trying to say there's a free board which is better than vB. lol

Plus, vBulletin does get updated all the time also. :D

With security updates ... haha... ;)

Originally posted by dgessler
I just can't stand someone actually trying to say there's a free board which is better than vB. lol


Dan with all due respect to you, that is one lame statement, after all, look how quick matt wrote and released the beta invisionboard after leaving ikonboard, and what a great board it is in a span only a few months, and how long has vb been going with plenty of cash behind it?
Give it a bit more time and breathing space and then we'll able to judge if a free board is better than a payed one.

Rally, let me elaborate on what I meant. I can't stand someone tryign to say there is a free board which is better than vB simply because there isn't.

And I'm only talking about vB here not any other ol paid board. I'm sure the deveoper of Invision Board plans to put a price to it in the near future as through the site i thoguht I saw it said something like "License: $0.00".

I'm not putting down Invision Board at all, don't get me wrong I'm saying there isn't forum software out which is really any better than vB.

No, the board will remain free but they will charge for different levels of support packages etc. And your statement about a free board not being being better than VB is only a matter of time. After all invsionboard has only been around for a few months. There's a classic saying "never UNderestimate the underdog"

I would love for Invisionboard to get as good as vB...
Because the name Jelsoft makes me sick :( ...
But until the day comes that something is as good or better..
There is no other choice but vB. :mad:

YourHostSucks, I totally agree with you:)

If you want something free, go with phpBB2, if you do not mind paying, go with vBulletin.

Ok how about this? We know that VB is the best forum.. but which is the best FREE forum? Invision or PHPBB?

For those who have not used or seen the tforumhack forum it is very very nice board that is extremely good on resources unlike the ikonboards and phpbb we have had experience with.

http://www.tforumhacks.com

I think in regards to free forum software Invision Board is best, I just tried it out today, it has much more features than phpBB.

Stop whining YourHostSucks!!! :p
Once vB3 arrives, nothing is ever going to be the same again :cool:

Originally posted by nuno
Stop whining YourHostSucks!!! :p
Once vB3 arrives, nothing is ever going to be the same again :cool:

I think this is / was all about Invisionboard, self marketing TROLL..

Someone should close this thread we've got the point... the word "Invisionboard" is out, we'll keep an eye out.
:spam:

Now let's get back to our own board of IkonBoard, UBB, vB, phpBB...

Originally posted by nuno
Stop whining YourHostSucks!!! :p
Once vB3 arrives, nothing is ever going to be the same again :cool:


What in the he** are you talking about *** *****?
lmao.. sometimes kids amaze me... :rolleyes:
I am going to go continue whining* (what ever that is) :eek:

Good Day Sir, :D

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And I agree that this thread is going nowhere.. just saying same thing over and over.