I found an interesting posts regarding this subject on the Hostrocket forums.. so I think its a good idea to post here too..

Well, I was just wondering what would your policy be on something like the bonsaikitten.com debacle? (you can read about it here:
http://cruel.com/sub/bonsai.shtml)

I'm getting a 404 error here. What is the issue?

The issue was regarding a satire site named Bonzai Kitten. In essence it involved describing the practise of 'growing' kittens in tiny jars to make them into interesting shapes (ala Bonzai trees)

They had some pictures (reportedly fake) of the steps involved in getting our fluffy little friends into the jar and how to keep them happy and fed (and clean).

The problem was (is), people see it and don't bother reading it... For instance the rather large statement the guy even put on it saying it was a joke. There is some choice email printed on the site from people who wrote in - both outraged wowsers and people who did get the joke and were playing along.

Personally I wouldn't have a problem with the site itself - you might as well ban The Onion if you're going to get 'pissy' about that. I might get a little tired of the animal rights types hounding us day and night. As a known site that gets a lot of traffic and abuse mail I'd probably sign them up with a 'back door' option after checking a few things out upstream. :)

Greg Moore

i would feel bad for the kitten but business is business it can bring bad repuatation kicking someone off just because of their site.Unless its sexual material ofocurce.

Ok, for those who missed it the first time:
http://www.bonsaikitten.com/

And here's an example of why the question got raised:
http://cats.about.com/pets/cats/library/weekly/aa122000a.htm

As for feeling sorry for the kittens, if I thought for one minute the site was real I wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. The issue is one of the right to satire rather than the right to torture animals.

Probably the best example of the joke is here:
http://www.bonsaikitten.com/parts/rcc.jpg
Tell me that's a real tortured cat and I'll scream :)

Anyway enough of that... Back to our regular program...

Greg Moore

[Edited by akashik on 02-08-2001 at 10:45 AM]

I didnt check the urls out but I have seen it before.
I think they were calling it sick humor
I would have to agree with that.

I think its sad what our world has come to, I no longer have any doubt that we will be the cause of are own destruction.

I for one dont believe in censorship, but I have to be honest, seeing something like that makes me want to throw up, and I would have serious morality issues with hosting something like that...

I saw the site, and it's somewhat obvious that it's a satire.

But never mind kittens, there are so many sick puppies out there, it's better not to give them any ideas.

If you want to see a satire site that is hard to figure whether or not it's real, try http://www.mvra.org. I've been in the transportation trade, and only the knowledge that Dayton, Ohio, doesn't have a subway kept me digging until I found positive proof that this wasn't a real site.

Very professionally done, IMO.

Probably the best example of the joke is here:
http://www.bonsaikitten.com/parts/rcc.jpg
Tell me that's a real tortured cat and I'll scream :)

I found the mangled finger in that link more disturbing than the entire bonsaikitten website :eek:

On the note of hosting the site, I wouldn't mainly because of my own morals and well, its hard enough to just please the client at times... having to please its visitors too? That would end up being a little headache, I personally wouldn't be too happy to see my inbox clogged with protestors of that site everyday.

While I do agree with their right to have the site on the net I am not sure I would want the hassle given the lightning rod nature of the site. That would be especially true if the site is getting attacked on a regular basis.

Cats, especially kittens, love to get into any small space. With this in mind it's very easy to fake such pics. I'm sure I could get my gf's cats into similar posses.

I doubt anyone would seriously take the site as real. Whether it violates any TOS is another issue.

Hi Folks
I am that web host.....
or at least we had one of the mirrors.

Believe it or not it has caused more "abuse" e-mail than any other single incident.

The site was hosted on our free service which is cobranded with another host and they have been innundated with complaints.

I have even been threatened with physical violence.
Some people need to get a grip.
It is a *joke*.

It would have been easy to press the button and delete the site, but I don't think its a web hosts duty to censor the contents of a site beyond whats in the TOS.
I just dug my heels in and kept it on, however the partners Excelland.com chickened out and took the site down.

http://bonsaikitten.myqth.com

May the bonsai kitty rest in peace, or the great 404 in the sky, or wherever Internet hoaxes go........

Gordon





[Edited by GordonH on 02-08-2001 at 05:32 PM]

In these overly PC times it appears many folks have nothing better to do. We do refuse to host "extremist" sites (our definition applies but it is reasonably liberal) for the same reason. Sorry to hear it did in fact turn into a hassle.

From a host's point of view, it doesn't make sense to take on a client that brings with it a disproportionate amount of problems. The time spent handling abuse problems would cause a loss, financially and in other ways.

From the site's POV, I suggest the following. FInd some sites or create some pages for the humor impaired. Do it humorously. Humor could be treated as a genetic trait. "Did the humor gene skip you? What to do about it!", the possibility of gene therapy to give people a sense of humor, etc.

Have a page with a link that reads something like "if you don't this is funny, please click here" which would lead to a page that says, in huge letters 'IT'S A JOKE! Then I would go on, seriously, talking about freedom of expression, not as a right, but as a principle, that people with a sense of humor live longer, and certainly better, than those who are uptight. I would even include other links to sites with a similar sense of humor.

I might even ask why they are on the site if they have no sense of humor? It seems like they are looking to stir to up trouble and maybe should expend their time and energy in a productive manner.

Any individual who feels that site is funny is in my opinion sick, OF COURSE its a joke, but its not a funny one, but once again, I believe in freedom of expressions so let those sick individuals do all the expressing they want, 99% of them wont lead a productive life, and thats satisfaction enough for me....

God im going to have lots of hate mail :)

Sure, and it's hardly any different than the book "101 Uses for a Dead Cat"

It's not my brand of humor, though I certainly wouldn't deny the choice of others to find it funny, nor to complain to anyone about it.

Anyone who would has, in my opinion, a book burner's mentality, which is far worse and more serious than a sense of humor many may find humorless.

Yes
I don't find it funny either and neither did my cat.....

However, we have to be fair and if a site is not breaking our TOS then we have to look at our TOS again.
It wouldn't be fair to say "I don't like it so goodbye".
I think you would be on dodgy legal ground there.

Anyway, its all over and my inbox is a lot quieter.

Gordon

I'm surprised no one brought this up yet, so here goes...

The question is, where is the line drawn? Sure you might think that site has no business on your servers, but at what point did they tip the scales?

This is what freedom of speech is about. You may not agree with the the things stated, but you are willing to put up with it so that *your* rights are not lessened or abandoned completely.

Most of the hot-topic issues have this problem. There is no exact 'point' at which it can be determined acceptable or not acceptable. This leads to opinions, and we all know the saying... :)

I think each host tends to draw their own line based on their principles and as a result there is no clear line. While on a personal level I strongly feel such sites while distasteful have a right to exist from my business's perspective I am a bit reluctant to risk my business when hosting a site. I'm not saying I would roll over at the first sign of controversy but at some point (probably once the lawyers got involved) I would have to look at other options. I would think that a larger company with perhaps many servers could better absorb the controversy than the smaller guys. Just my 2 cents...

I wouldn't allow it, simply because it's sadistic. No porn, no sadistic content on my servers. That'd be included in the TOS. I can't see that would be a problem. It's up to the host to draw the line.

If you can get away by calling this a joke you can get away with everything, aslong as it's a 'joke'. The next thing is that the nazis call pictures of 'Auswitch' and the Klu Klux Klan a joke. You get my drift?

Personally, I think the site is clearly satirical and has some pretty funny elements. Further, I think it actually makes a pro-animal point. Breeders create misshapen, unhealthy cats every day, trying to get a result people find aesthetically pleasing or amusing. The Karma Farms "twisty cats" with their deformed legs are one especially relevant example. The Bonsaikitten site condemns the idea of making living things into show pieces by taking this type of practice to an absurd extreme.

I'd have no moral problems hosting this site. Practical problems would be another matter, since many people clearly disagree with my interpretation and think the site literally advocates putting kittens into bottles.

It's only sadistic if taken seriously, and is only taken seriously if someone has a recessive humor gene.

It is nothing like Dachau, Auchwitz, or the KKK.

In fact, humor can be used to ridicule them. Quite some time ago, a racist bigot posted under the name White Diver on a scuba diving BBS I read. He used the lure of comparisons of a couple of pieces of equipment and had anti-black material all over his site. Someone came up with a parody of it. I just checked my bookmarks and found it is still active at http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Cabin/5698/

The kitten site is not my brand of humor, and at least I understand that it is humor and not to be taken seriously. Unfortunately, some people just don't get it.

Maybe gene therapy will help.

Well, I guess it depends on what you think is funny. I don't find this funny at all. In my opinion this is sick, but, what the hell, I guess we need to go more and more to the extremes to have a cheap laugh.

I know it's funny to some, and ofcourse it's not as serious as 'Auswich* 'Dachau' or 'KKK' but there's also jokes about this stuff/events on the internet, I guess it's just up to the host to decide what's meant to be a joke or not.



[Edited by Jonah on 02-10-2001 at 12:02 PM]