What would be a sure fire way to knock an illegal site and/or host offline? It irks me to no end to know that there are little wise-assed punks out there making weed money with porn banners and popups on warez/crackz/etc websites. For instance, I am always hunting down this trash and emailing whatever addresses I find on samspade.org, but to no avail. I'm friends with several programmers, and I have grown to be an overt sympathizer of their plight. Whether or not you agree with me, couldn't you fill me in on a good way to destroy an illegal business? At the very least it makes the webhosting business look bad when there are rotten apples among the 99% honest and legit.

Case in point: http://www.cracks.st/ is hosted by http://www.bluewebhouse.com/

Let's say I wanted to do my part to see their relationship sour...

The only thing I would know to do is just keep going to the top.

Search results for: 80.80.14.54

European Regional Internet Registry/RIPE NCC (NET-80-RIPE)
These addresses have been further assigned
to European users. Contact information can
be found in the RIPE database at whois.ripe.net
NL

Netname: 80-RIPE
Netblock: 80.0.0.0 - 80.255.255.255
Maintainer: RIPE

Sadly enforcing laws over the internet is hard, because unless its going to be a big bust, no law enforcment will bother. So your only real hope is trying to find someone who controls the network to shut em down.

By the way, I feel the same way.

And if its piracy or cracks, report it to the appropriate Publishers of that program. They have more leverage than you do to pressure these webhosts to shut sites down.

Posting links to crack sites doesn't help the situation a whole lot.

Originally posted by Hiccups
Posting links to crack sites doesn't help the situation a whole lot.

No kidding. Now WHT even has links to crack sites. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by KingDong
Whether or not you agree with me, couldn't you fill me in on a good way to destroy an illegal business?
I don't agree with you.

Take the Dreamweaver MX crack for an example, in my opinion Macromedia is greatful to peoples hacking their products and distributing cracks, why else would they distribute fully functionnal "trial" versions?

It was the same with Microsoft products, I believe the huge market share of Win95 could only be reached by unofficially "allowing" it to be used without a license.

Or take AutoCAD 2000 or Photoshop 7, use of these programs takes a lot of time to learn, and if some geeks have no money but lots of spare time to learn using this software, if they can get a crack in order to do so, I believe that's in the best interest of the software makers (Autodesk and Adobe) as well.

These companies want to get paied by those who can afford it to pay, but they are more than happy when those who cannot afford it just use the product for free, so they contribute to the market share and learn to use it, and at latest by the time they make professionnal use of the software they will usually buy a license to "regularize" their position.

This de facto "licensing policy" cannot be implemented in another way, the software companies need the crack and warez websites to make it possible. Well, they can facilitate things, by using silly CD-Keys like 9999-9999999 or 1234-1234567 (actual CD-Keys for some well known Microsoft products). Or by making the trial versions easily crackable, who knows... :D

There's no harm in distributing warez I think, it's a win-win solution and the continuous whining and moaning of software makers about their loosing oh so much business due to software piracy cannot be taken serious. Do you really believe they would have been able to actually SELL all the copies that are being used "illegally"? Of course not... Do you think they'd be happy to trade the significant part of their market share which consists of "illegal" copies against a much smaller part of copies they'd be able to sell to users who just buy because they can't find a crack? Well, I don't.

From both the economic and moral point of view, fighting software piracy is, IMHO, justified in two situations:

1. where professionnal use is made of pirated software

2. where pirated software is sold for real (where the buyer believes to acquire a license, while actually he doesn't)

If you, KingDong, find it fun to give your time in order to help others, that's fine. Just avoid to do things which in fact aren't helpful for anyone. It's not for the mere fact that a certain behaviour is formally illegal that anybody has an interest in stopping such behaviour. And if those directly concerned by the distribution of warez don't care about it, or are even happy with the situation, then it's obviously not up to you to take actions against it. You're just being a pain in the ass, for everyone.

The only reasonable thing you can do about warez sites is report those websites to the companies which are directly touched, for example Macromedia has a link on their site where you can report sites distributing cracks for their products. Then it's up to them to take action or not. I bet they don't do anything :)

But if you really want to spend your time for something useful, forget about the warez sites and rather try to track down sites with child pornography and report those to the proper authorities, that'd have much more merit.

Anyone have Windows2002 office cd-key??? :D

Cd-key is a key number stated on the back-end of the software's box. I've THROWN IT AWAY!!! :( :( :( :(

If you really want to shut them down, just look up the URL the banners point to.

Then contact the owner of the adult site that is being promoted, and provide the URL of the offending site. Most adult promoters do not tolerate warez sites. they have FAQ's that state this.

The person promoting the warez will get thier adult pay account taken away, and will lose weeks of accrued money. with no money, they can't host. end of problem.

If you want to read a webmasters board that deals directly with the adult industry (and all the heavyweights lurk there), check this url. It looks bad, but it is legit.

http://www.go****yourself.com

hmm, doesn't like that four letter word. it is of course <removed: gee it might be censored for a reason>

sorry

Originally posted by astra4
From both the economic and moral point of view, fighting software piracy is, IMHO, justified in two situations:

1. where professionnal use is made of pirated software

2. where pirated software is sold for real (where the buyer believes to acquire a license, while actually he doesn't)


Every time a popup is loaded from a warez site, money is being made, and law is being broken. I have a sneaking suspicion you have a vested interest in the warez "business". ;)

I agree with Astra. Large companies are slow to maneuver and change scares them. A similar example would be mp3s. Record companies and artists will come to understand the fact that trading of mp3s raises the profile of artists = larger concert draw = increase in album sales.
Every time a popup is loaded from a warez site, money is being made, and law is being broken. I have a sneaking suspicion you have a vested interest in the warez "business".

I thought the same thing of you KingDong.

Originally posted by astra4

I don't agree with you.

Take the Dreamweaver MX crack for an example, in my opinion Macromedia is greatful to peoples hacking their products and distributing cracks, why else would they distribute fully functionnal "trial" versions?


They do it that way so that when someone tries, it they can purchase the key online and then apply it to their trial version to UNLOCK it. Its well known that companies do this. that way customers dont have to wait 5 days to get it in the mail.

Its a security measure. Its against the law to break the security of a program. Companies dont do it for the reason you stated above. :rolleyes:

It was the same with Microsoft products, I believe the huge market share of Win95 could only be reached by unofficially "allowing" it to be used without a license.


that is BS. Please provide supporting documents.



Or take AutoCAD 2000 or Photoshop 7, use of these programs takes a lot of time to learn, and if some geeks have no money but lots of spare time to learn using this software, if they can get a crack in order to do so, I believe that's in the best interest of the software makers (Autodesk and Adobe) as well.


You seem to want to break the law and let companies lose money. Photoshop doesn't take "long" to learn. There are sites online that teach photoshop. Schools teach them in classes. Its just a cop-out reason. Software makers offer trial versions so YOU can try it. Other reasons are just trying to justify a crime. :rolleyes:


These companies want to get paied by those who can afford it to pay, but they are more than happy when those who cannot afford it just use the product for free, so they contribute to the market share and learn to use it, and at latest by the time they make professionnal use of the software they will usually buy a license to "regularize" their position.

:rolleyes: OH please. You're deluded to even think that.

This de facto "licensing policy" cannot be implemented in another way, the software companies need the crack and warez websites to make it possible. Well, they can facilitate things, by using silly CD-Keys like 9999-9999999 or 1234-1234567 (actual CD-Keys for some well known Microsoft products). Or by making the trial versions easily crackable, who knows... :D


Man your logic stinks. Piracy is piracy. End of story. :rolleyes:

There's no harm in distributing warez I think, it's a win-win solution and the continuous whining and moaning of software makers about their loosing oh so much business due to software piracy cannot be taken serious. Do you really believe they would have been able to actually SELL all the copies that are being used "illegally"? Of course not... Do you think they'd be happy to trade the significant part of their market share which consists of "illegal" copies against a much smaller part of copies they'd be able to sell to users who just buy because they can't find a crack? Well, I don't.


Yup now we know you have an interest in warez. You probably have a site that has them. Only warez owners come up with these stupid reasons. :rolleyes:



From both the economic and moral point of view, fighting software piracy is, IMHO, justified in two situations:

1. where professionnal use is made of pirated software


So people make money off of something they stole huh? :rolleyes:
So would you be happy if someone stole your house and sold it to another person? Or stole your car and sold it to another person.


2. where pirated software is sold for real (where the buyer believes to acquire a license, while actually he doesn't)

Ignorance is not a defense. If the person isn't buying the software that is ORIGINAL (ie ORiginal discs, with boosk and packaging) then he deserves to be caught or pay a fine for owning a pirated version. If you dont buy it from a store, but some hood on a street corner, that's your problem not ours.


If you, KingDong, find it fun to give your time in order to help others, that's fine. Just avoid to do things which in fact aren't helpful for anyone. It's not for the mere fact that a certain behaviour is formally illegal that anybody has an interest in stopping such behaviour.

The software companies care. So stop assuming that they dont.

And if those directly concerned by the distribution of warez don't care about it, or are even happy with the situation, then it's obviously not up to you to take actions against it. You're just being a pain in the ass, for everyone.


No just to the site owner who owns the illegal site in the first place.

The only reasonable thing you can do about warez sites is report those websites to the companies which are directly touched, for example Macromedia has a link on their site where you can report sites distributing cracks for their products. Then it's up to them to take action or not. I bet they don't do anything :)


Dont assume that they dont. Macromedia, MS and Adobe are well know for shutting down sites for warez.

But if you really want to spend your time for something useful, forget about the warez sites and rather try to track down sites with child pornography and report those to the proper authorities, that'd have much more merit.

Each are crimes. Crime is still a crime.

Originally posted by KingDong
Every time a popup is loaded from a warez site, money is being made, and law is being broken. I have a sneaking suspicion you have a vested interest in the warez "business". ;)
I suppose you're referring to the first of the two cases where I find prosecution of software piracy justified: Where professionnal use is made of pirated software.

Looks like you missunderstood what I meant. By "Professionnal use" I mean if someone earns money actually USING the software, i.e. using Dreamweaver for professionnal web design, using Photoshop for professionnal publishing, using AutoCAD for professionnal design jobs, using Microsoft Office to type business letters, etc.

I did not mean those "professionnals" who make a living (I doubt anyone can make a living from this, anyway) selling warez CDs or cracks, they're no better but also no worse than those who distribute cracks or warez CDs for free.

If the big companies in question were really happy with the situation, would Adobe, Macromedia and Micro$oft have really spent the fortune they just have getting the big players in the Warez Industry shut down?

The Publishers are losing out, and they`re doing everything in there power to crack down.. and I just can`t see cracks.microsoft.com or warez.macromedia.com being valid addresses anytime soon..

The Points about going direct to the banner advert providers is a good one, as accounts are normally paid monthly, and if your report is timed right you can leave the pirates high and dry..

Another Option is :


If you would like to make a report about a person or company that is offering for sale or facilitating the download of illegal software, please e-mail fast@fast.org or telephone FAST on +44 (0) 1628 622121

If your report is concerning film, music, games or non-internet related sales, please report this to the Copyright Hotline at www.copyright-info.org.


They are a Uk based company but deal with Copyright Theft Net Wide..

They`re site is : http://www.fast.org.uk

Best of luck with catching the Warez d00dz..

To WizzyWig:

Just one thing, concerning the two situations I mentioned explicitly:

1. Where professionnal use is made of pirated software
2. Where pirated software is sold for real

I just hope you understood that I condemn this and fully agree with software companies prosecuting such software pirates to the maximum possible. You seem to have missunderstood me here.

For all the rest, of course, it's formally illegal, but for my part I don't believe that the software companies have any problems with warez sites, basically. Sure they have to close some of them, after all the strategy of tolerating warez must not be too blatant :cool: In any case, it's up to them to take action.

Piracy is piracy. There is no difference between an MP3 and a cracked copy of Flash.

Both are illegal. Changes in technology have made it very easily to create and distribute pirated media, but that doesn't make it any less illegal than when it was hard to do so.

Theft is built in to overhead in software, same as in any other retail item. If dreamweaver and flash weren't such popular packages for theft, they wouldn't charge so much for it.

Same with Microsoft's products, their anti-piracy group is busy doing what they can to punish the pirates. Although they are most concerned with the kind of pirates who are operating commercially.

Either the buy once, install everywhere computer consultants and computer shops, or the buy once and sell pirated copies everywhere outfits. They have a bit higher priority, and if you report someone they will raid the place, pull all the hard drives, and shut them right down.

Report piracy, including warez sites, here: http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/

Originally posted by Mitnik
If the big companies in question were really happy with the situation, would Adobe, Macromedia and Micro$oft have really spent the fortune they just have getting the big players in the Warez Industry shut down?
Oh, did they? Well, it's their right to shut down warez sites...

I can understand they shut down big ones (see below)

It cost them a fortune? I don't believe this. The biger the player the easier to shut him down.
The Publishers are losing out, and they`re doing everything in there power to crack down.. How do you know?and I just can`t see cracks.microsoft.com or warez.macromedia.com being valid addresses anytime soon.. Obviously not :)

For the same reason they have to close some big warez sites, after all the strategy of tolerating warez must not be too blatant :cool:
The Points about going direct to the banner advert providers is a good one, as accounts are normally paid monthly, and if your report is timed right you can leave the pirates high and dry..
Sounds like a reasonable aproach. If the concerned software company takes this aproach, fine. If they prefer to tolerate a certain warez site, fine too. It's up to them.
Another Option is : [...] http://www.fast.org.uk
FAST: Federation Against Software Theft

I don't know them, so I can't say anything about their activities.

As long as tey don't tell me the contrary, I don't believe that they're taking steps against warez sites, not in general, anyway.

Adobe & Macromedia were influential in the shutdown of gint*r, ice, easy, directdl and makr0.. Micro$oft were the driving force behind the shutdown of a number of forums advertising pirated copies of the WinXP Operating System and Beta Versions of OfficeXP.. Microsoft have also been working with google on identifying sites carrying cd-keys and keygens for Microsoft products..

It takes money to identify and track down large number of pirates, when you think of betas of WinXP hitting the IRC networks and being relayed to hundreds of ftp sites within hours of a release that`s a lot of leads to follow. It`s true, BIG players are easier to track down, they`re linked left right and center, but a number of these sites are nothing more than advertising fronts conning poor newbies with endless circle-jerks, the real evil lurks beneath these shells, and it`s hunting that, that costs money, it`s simply not enough to just shut down a site, you need to find the webhost and confiscate the cd-r`s and hard-drives that contain the warez. otherwise they just spring up again within hours of being shutdown..

Another angle that needs to be dealt with is re-direction companies like shorturl, alturl and the like, they need to police there links more, and stop the pirates from having these easy routes back to a new site at a new host.

How do I know what they`re doing? I read the news that`s available all around the net, I pay attention to what`s being said from the horse`s mouth, and also in some cases what isn`t being said..

I don`t believe there is any tolerance of warez, from the big players or the little shareware companies getting there hard work ripped of with cracks and keygens when all they want is to earn a decent wage for there hard work, How would you feel after putting in hundreds of hours to develop a product to know it`s being widely used (by pirates) and your not recieving a penny for there enjoyment of your software? Sure, you can stop developing the software to combat them, but it`s not the right answer is it? It`s not fair to make someone give up on their hard work because you can`t be bothered to pay for it, if your going to use it, pay for it.. and don`t tell me 30 days isn`t adequate enough time to find out if you want to use a product..

Sure the £400 I ended up paying for Dreamweaver MX was a lot of money for one software product, but I don`t blame the publisher for that price, I blame the endless realms of pirates that refuse to pay for products they use day in and day out. And if they`ve stolen it already, I don`t see them eventually turning round a couple of years down the line and suddenly deciding to part with their cash.. I don`t see the thief who stole my TV last year coming back anytime soon and paying me for the hours of TV he`s watched on it..

The Pirates are getting a ride and it ain`t free, the consumers are paying.. and the Software houses are as mad as the public about it, you get in business to make money... business is about profit, and you don`t make anything by letting pirates walk all over you.

F.A.S.T are taking an active stance against any websites offering up for download any copyrighted software without the correct authorisation from the copyright owner.

Originally posted by Phoenix
Piracy is piracy. There is no difference between an MP3 and a cracked copy of Flash.Nobody pretended there be a difference.

There probably is some difference, I believe that warez helps the software industry, but am less sure if mp3 can help the music industry. The copyright principles are obviously the same, but economically speaking there's some difference between music and software.Both are illegal. Changes in technology have made it very easily to create and distribute pirated media, but that doesn't make it any less illegal than when it was hard to do so.Obviously it's illegal, nobody contested this.

All I say is that in some situations, software makes profit from such illegal activities and hence have no reason to fight it.Theft is built in to overhead in software, same as in any other retail item.Actually the term "theft" doesn't exactly apply to software piracy, there's a certain analogy, but while theft implies an immediate dammage, this is not the case when someone produces an illegal copy of a work.

An economic damage results if sales go down due to software piracy. The question is if that is the case. I don't think so.If dreamweaver and flash weren't such popular packages for theft, they wouldn't charge so much for it.See above.

Also what makes you believe that they'd lower the prices if they could sell more licenses? This is a little simplistic an idea.

Either the buy once, install everywhere computer consultants and computer shops, or the buy once and sell pirated copies everywhere outfits. They have a bit higher priority, and if you report someone they will raid the place, pull all the hard drives, and shut them right down.
I understand "They" is Microsoft, fighting those practices.

Yeah, I agree, and right so. Because they are selling pirated software "for real", i.e. the buyer believes to acquire a license. That's one of the situations where I absolutely understand that they prosecute to the maximum extent possible.
Report piracy, including warez sites, here: http://www.bsa.org/usa/report/ Why not... Still I find more correct to report to the concerned software company, who can then report to whom ever they want, if they want.

Unless BSA.org tells me the contrary, I don't believe that this organization takes steps against warez sites, not in general, anywy.

Originally posted by Mitnik
I pay attention to what`s being said from the horse`s mouth, and also in some cases what isn`t being said..
Me too :)

By the way, I agree Microsoft doesn't want to tolerate warez anymore - for the time being.

The reason is, that they don't have a single competitor, especially for Windows XP, so they want everyone to pay in order to use it, and they prefer all the others to continue using Win95.

So, I believe Microsoft wants to shut down warez sites distributing Windows XP cracks, but I don't believe that Macromedia wants to seriously fight distributon of Dreamweaver MX cracks.

It all depends, and the decision to take action against a warez site or not, should always be made by those actually concerned with it, and not by some brainless, self-proclamed defendors of justice.

Originally posted by Mitnik
The Pirates are getting a ride and it ain`t free, the consumers are paying.. and the Software houses are as mad as the public about it, you get in business to make money... business is about profit, and you don`t make anything by letting pirates walk all over you.



That idea is pure propaganda. The recording industry has been trying to force feed us that crap for years. It allows software companies/record companies/movie companies to charge inflated prices and blame the public for their greed. If piracy were to end tomorrow, I seriously doubt you'd ever see the price of adobe photoshop drop to a more normal level.

It all depends, and the decision to take action against a warez site or not, should always be made by those actually concerned with it, and not by some brainless, self-proclamed defendors of justice.
Precisely, and who has the time to screw with it? It is almost as stupid as clicking on the links posted at the beginning of this thread.

personally, I believe the whole "spill" about cracks and warez being "ok" with the companies is a bunch of garbage. I just can't believe someone is justifying illegal activity by assuming companies enjoy people hacking their software. You must be joking.

Take the Dreamweaver MX crack for an example, in my opinion Macromedia is greatful to peoples hacking their products and distributing cracks, why else would they distribute fully functionnal "trial" versions?

That's hilarious man. Your asking why companies give out "trial" versions. I'm not even dignifying this with a response, as the answer is more obvious to a 5 year old.

These companies want to get paied by those who can afford it to pay, but they are more than happy when those who cannot afford it just use the product for free, so they contribute to the market share and learn to use it, and at latest by the time they make professionnal use of the software they will usually buy a license to "regularize" their position.

You must be kidding. I run a company, and I sell i high price product, but im going to give it away to those people who dont have enough money. Your defeating the entire purpose of "commerce" If you think major companies are out to "help expand the internet, you are gravely mistaken. Their out to make a profit, not to help the innocent (as you like to call the people who hack software, steal from companies, and help illegal acticity)

There's no harm in distributing warez I think, it's a win-win solution and the continuous whining and moaning of software makers about their loosing oh so much business due to software piracy cannot be taken serious. Do you really believe they would have been able to actually SELL all the copies that are being used "illegally"? Of course not... Do you think they'd be happy to trade the significant part of their market share which consists of "illegal" copies against a much smaller part of copies they'd be able to sell to users who just buy because they can't find a crack? Well, I don't.

Your logic really evades me. Since the majority of the population cannot buy certain expensive products, you think major companies simply want those products to be given aaway free? Have you even researched the amount of money large companies have lost from Warez? Are you seriously beliving this?

But if you really want to spend your time for something useful, forget about the warez sites and rather try to track down sites with child pornography and report those to the proper authorities, that'd have much more merit.

simple comment here, instead of finding and cracking down on the people that "Steal' lollipops from a store, lets find the people that commit murders to hundreds of people. Forget all the smaller crimes and lets just go after the big ones. I'm not even going to go into morals here, beacuse there is no need. The simple fact is you cant ignore warez and its abuse to companies that make the software. Instead of simply ignoring warez, lets kill 2 birds with one stone here, lets get rid of them both. I'd bet you that a lot of warez sites ALSO hold a lot of pornography on them. But is that no longer bad now?

oh boy I'm poor im going to go get lots of free software and warez and cracks, but im not going to look at child pornography! As long as I dont do that, i can get all the illegal software I want.

Originally posted by Drewcifer


That idea is pure propaganda. The recording industry has been trying to force feed us that crap for years. It allows software companies/record companies/movie companies to charge inflated prices and blame the public for their greed. If piracy were to end tomorrow, I seriously doubt you'd ever see the price of adobe photoshop drop to a more normal level.

It is NOT propaganda. Its called inflation.

You think those lawyers cost nothing. You think they are doing pro-bono work for these companies. They get their fair share as well.

You think those programmers are paid didly for what they do? Do you think they sit in front of a computer for hours and hours and not get paid?

Adobe would drop in price if they cut out the legal end of the things (ie the lawyers and employees hired to handle the abuse of their software).


As the demand for workers salaries go up, the more features are put into a program, the more hours needed to work, the more people needed to be hired to do the work, the lawyers who have to work for these companies to chase down problem sites, the marketing employees, the packaging an designing, the publishing of books etc etc.

These all add up. Im surprised that they can even get away with selling Photoshop for the mere $300 that they do.

True, Software/Movie/Music companies have been bleeting on about piracy since I was using a C64, but I`ve watched great people and great companies driven out of business by the pirates, I`ve seen software costing from £500 to £5 cracked, hacked and repacked.

Sure the big companies can afford to take a battering at the hands of the Pirates, but the little guys get swamped and swallowed.. So the problem for the pirates has never been the Price of something, if it`s out there, they want it free, be it a Celine Dion Cd a Copy of WinXP or Spiderman on VCD.

Infact, I was in Virgin Megastore where a guy was ranting and raving because he couldn`t copy the new Celine Dion Cd for His Sister??

As the pirates have become harder to control the prices have spiralled.. It`s fair to say that without the pirates we would see a more reasonable price level.. It`s a game of swings are roundabouts, they people that pirate the stuff, probably wouldn`t pay for it anyways no matter the price, but they are selling to people that would by the product if it was a more reasonable price, so too my thinking, you haveto remove the pirates and that option so people will (be forced to) for want of a better sequence of words) buy from the developer, and contribution to the future development and future lower prices of the software they want to use.

Either the buy once, install everywhere computer consultants and computer shops, or the buy once and sell pirated copies everywhere outfits. They have a bit higher priority, and if you report someone they will raid the place, pull all the hard drives, and shut them right down

No they don't.....you may think they do, and they may say they do, but they don't. I know of a local company that is now being sued by Microsoft for $ 1,049,195.65 for selling and installing illegal operating systems on customers machines and on new computers being sold. NOT ONCE did anyone affiliated with MS come to the store. All contact from MS was thru a law firm via snail mail and phone calls. Very rarely do they actually visit the location of violation. This company is still doing business and in all probability will never be shut down.

Well, I didn`t think Bill Gates made personal appearances for every bust ;)

Originally posted by astra4
Nobody pretended there be a difference.

There probably is some difference, I believe that warez helps the software industry, but am less sure if mp3 can help the music industry. The copyright principles are obviously the same, but economically speaking there's some difference between music and software.Obviously it's illegal, nobody contested this.

You'd be ignorant to think that soeone who downloads a copy of Adobe Photoshop for free will then wake up one day and say "hey, I use this program alot, why not I jsut pay for it already"

Huh uh,.. and i have bridge in Brooklyn that I'd like to sell you.



All I say is that in some situations, software makes profit from such illegal activities and hence have no reason to fight it.

They have every reason to fight it, It cuts into their profits. No profits, no new versions that will be developed.


Actually the term "theft" doesn't exactly apply to software piracy, there's a certain analogy, but while theft implies an immediate dammage, this is not the case when someone produces an illegal copy of a work.


I dont see any confusion in theft as defined below:


theft

Pronunciation: (theft), [key]
—n.
1. the act of stealing; the wrongful taking and carrying away of the personal goods or property of another; larceny.
2. an instance of this.
3. Archaic.something stolen.



steal

Pronunciation: (stEl), [key]
—v., stole, sto•len, steal•ing,
—n.

—v.t.
1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
3. to take, get, or win insidiously, surreptitiously, subtly, or by chance: He stole my girlfriend.
4. to move, bring, convey, or put secretly or quietly; smuggle (usually fol. by away, from, in, into, etc.): They stole the bicycle into the bedroom to surprise the child.
5. Baseball.(of a base runner) to gain (a base) without the help of a walk or batted ball, as by running to it during the delivery of a pitch.
6. Games.to gain (a point, advantage, etc.) by strategy, chance, or luck.
7. to gain or seize more than one's share of attention in, as by giving a superior performance: The comedian stole the show.

—v.i.
1. to commit or practice theft.
2. to move, go, or come secretly, quietly, or unobserved: She stole out of the house at midnight.
3. to pass, happen, etc., imperceptibly, gently, or gradually: The years steal by.
4. Baseball.(of a base runner) to advance a base without the help of a walk or batted ball.
5. steal someone's thunder, to appropriate or use another's idea, plan, words, etc.

—n.
1. Informal.an act of stealing; theft.
2. Informal.the thing stolen; booty.
3. Informal.something acquired at a cost far below its real value; bargain: This dress is a steal at $40.
4. Baseball.the act of advancing a base by stealing.


Downloading software that you did not pay for is theft.


An economic damage results if sales go down due to software piracy. The question is if that is the case. I don't think so.See above.

$12 billion per year isn't economic damage?

http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/tech/review/2001-08-01-software-piracy.htm

http://exportit.ita.doc.gov/ocbe/ForeignM.nsf/679c088699b484498525674e0000eb9f/8f6ce5df83fc13b385256aca006c2090!OpenDocument

http://www.microsoft.com/presspass/features/2001/oct01/10-19piracyqa.asp

http://www.newsfactor.com/perl/story/18151.html


Also what makes you believe that they'd lower the prices if they could sell more licenses? This is a little simplistic an idea.

What makes you think they wouldn't?



I understand "They" is Microsoft, fighting those practices.

Yeah, I agree, and right so. Because they are selling pirated software "for real", i.e. the buyer believes to acquire a license. That's one of the situations where I absolutely understand that they prosecute to the maximum extent possible.
Why not... Still I find more correct to report to the concerned software company, who can then report to whom ever they want, if they want.

Unless BSA.org tells me the contrary, I don't believe that this organization takes steps against warez sites, not in general, anywy.

They do. I have personally reported many sites to them and find out in a weeks time that the site doesn't exist anymore. Many wont make it to the news . But unless you report it, you wont see it. So you can't assume they dont since you obviously have never reported warez or hack site.

Originally posted by WizyWyg


It is NOT propaganda. Its called inflation.

You think those lawyers cost nothing. You think they are doing pro-bono work for these companies. They get their fair share as well.

You think those programmers are paid didly for what they do? Do you think they sit in front of a computer for hours and hours and not get paid?

Adobe would drop in price if they cut out the legal end of the things (ie the lawyers and employees hired to handle the abuse of their software).


As the demand for workers salaries go up, the more features are put into a program, the more hours needed to work, the more people needed to be hired to do the work, the lawyers who have to work for these companies to chase down problem sites, the marketing employees, the packaging an designing, the publishing of books etc etc.

These all add up. Im surprised that they can even get away with selling Photoshop for the mere $300 that they do.

Hogwash. See ya later, when you're done jumping off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings. :p

LOL, lemmings, heheh. That psychopath saying companies like warez is a complete boob. If I get a Ford from a chop-shop with a rubbed out VIN, I'm not helping them promote their name brand. Granted, those cars are usually already bought and paid for, but I fail to think of a good analogy. Quite a unique arena, this software one, eh? ;)

i dont know about it being unique, I think people enjoy deludging themselves into thinking warez is alright and "their helping the software companies" I still can't actually believe I'm reading half of this mess anyway. I just dont know what the heck these people do for a living

Originally posted by WizyWyg


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This de facto "licensing policy" cannot be implemented in another way, the software companies need the crack and warez websites to make it possible. Well, they can facilitate things, by using silly CD-Keys like 9999-9999999 or 1234-1234567 (actual CD-Keys for some well known Microsoft products). Or by making the trial versions easily crackable, who knows...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Man your logic stinks. Piracy is piracy. End of story.



Actually he's right about the 9999 thing. When I worked for Microsoft way back when 95 came out, lots of people were having problems with installing it and getting the keys to work. When the upgrade would not take for some reason, we'd have the user format the machine, copy disk 1 of win3.1 to the drive, create a .bat file with a fake key number in it.
It didn't matter what the key was, as long as it was 4digits-7digits. They would tell us to make it up, right it down and then tell the customer what his "new" key was going to be.

It was also well known for Office (95 and 97) products to just type all 1's or 9's in for the key. Of course back then, keys really didn't matter as Microsoft was going after marketshare.

When 98 came out there was a different yet similar procedure to getting around the product key. This was not piracy but rather the methods Microsoft used for tech support.

Maybe if the software wasn't $400 more reasonably priced at $50 or $20 the average user wouldn't have to warez it? I fail to see how if someone who wouldn't pay $400 for the software and warezes it hurts the software company, all it does is promote their brand so the big companies want to pay and use it. By the way I am in no way supporting warez or pirating.

Originally posted by Tetraboy
Maybe if the software wasn't $400 more reasonably priced at $50 or $20 the average user wouldn't have to warez it? I fail to see how if someone who wouldn't pay $400 for the software and warezes it hurts the software company, all it does is promote their brand so the big companies want to pay and use it. By the way I am in no way supporting warez or pirating.


You fail to see?

Okay, lets break it down.


Look at the people who made Adobe Photoshop, at last count Photoshop 7.0 had about 50+ people who worked on it. Most of these were programmers, so we can guess that they are earning anywhere between $50,000 - $120,000 for development. Development for a program of that caliber can be around 12-36 months; so we'll take 24 months as being the middle. AVg out the salaries then : $80,0000

$80,0000 x 50 = $4,000,000 (this is just for programmers)

Books to publish (that nice THICK book that helps you use the program) costs about $10 to make per released program.

Marketing another half million.
Packaging - $10,000 - $30,000

So we are now looking at Adobe spending 4 1/2 million on just development and marketing.
Now, other expenses:
The building rent or taxes they are working in/from.
The air conditioning, lights, electricity, parking fees, company expenses, for those 24 months.

Now we are probably looking at total expenses of more than 5 million dollars.

To offset $5,000,000 at $20 per copy: 250,000 copies must be made before they are even with what they spent. That means they need to sell another 250,000 copies just to break even to warrant enough $$$$ to spend to make another version or work on the upgrade and at least 125,000 more copies need to be sold before they can start working on another version or upgrade. Adobe Photoshop 6 didn't even sell 300,000 copies.


to offseet $5.000,000 at $300 (not counting those who are upgrading at a reduced price of $200) : 16,600 copies.

Ooh, now we see something. They have to price a program at a price where they can make their money back at a quick enough rate, to warrant them to start on the next version. Since most programs take anywhere from 1 1/2 years to develop, if they dont see a return on their program early enough, the slower the next version becomes available.

Adobe Photoshop is a PROFFESSIONAL software btw, so that means JOE Schmoe wouldn't bother with this program to just print out photos from his or her digital cameras or scanners. Its priced for the people who WOULD be using it on at least a daily basis, if not more than just ot print out photos of their pets.



Now this is just speculation, but having worked in game development for a year and then let go because there wasn't enough money to keep me on, I know how piracy hurts the industry.

Just a few comments to make in this discussion. It is a widely recognised fact that when Windows 95 was released that MS pretty much turned a blind eye to pirating of it, why? Because they wanted the market share, it's simple economics:

If you've got plenty of cash, you sell some copies, you let them get distributed amongst friends. You gain market share, which gives you an injection point into the market for subsequent versions, if everyone uses your product at home, then it makes more sense for big businesses to use the same products, Office, Windows etc. in the workplace as they don't have to train staff - hence the big license money rolls in. Then when you dominate the market, you make it harder to pirate your software by the casual user, and you keep clamping down on the commercial pirates. If you want market share, you give it away (Which is basically what letting piracy prevail amounts to), just look at Internet Explorer - it's a prime example of how giving it away gains market share.

I do however agree that piracy can be very damaging to companies and just isn't the right thing to do, but under the right conditions a company can reap the benefits of piracy in the early days for many years to come.

Okey I totally agree with astra4

macromedia products have had the same exact crack procedure for the last 5 version. Also Flash, Dreamweaver, Fireworks all have the same crack procedure. i think if macromedia really wanted to shut it down they would have changed the security flaws a long time ago.... plus macromedia advertises the fact that it has more market share then anyone else....i really don't think this is possible with out cracks.....I live on campas at a pretty big college and just about everyone with a webpage uses dreamweaver....You think normal college students could afford $200 software? Hellz no.... I totally agree with astra4... if you need to use the software professionally buy it...if you are just making a personal home page crack it....I started out cracking macromedia products just so i can use them for personal sites....since then i have become a webmaster and now purchase the product... the reason i have stuck with dreamweaver over say...net object fusion...is because back in the day dreamweaver was alot easier to crack...a highschool student wanting to make a webpage shouldn't have to spit out 200 for software... since i am use to it now i have stuck with it for 6 versions...since i can afford it now i do pay the redicious $300 price tag of the education version of MX studio. i think alot of people are in the same situation as me....i totally agree that without pirated version these softwares would not have that much market share.


as for photoshop.....

Originally posted by Annie-Mei

Adobe Photoshop is a PROFFESSIONAL software btw, so that means JOE Schmoe wouldn't bother with this program to just print out photos from his or her digital cameras or scanners. Its priced for the people who WOULD be using it on at least a daily basis, if not more than just ot print out photos of their pets.


everyone i know at college also uses photoshop....to touch up photos...ect i think the reason that photoshop is so widely known even by the average joe is because so many people use the pirated version....

This first guys thinks he's on a mission, james bond like.Are none of you's just a little bad?.

I'm not condoning piracy and not condemning piracy. I'm just going to say this:

A majority of the people who pirate a piece of software (except for Operating Systems) never had the intent on buying it in the first place. A more accurate description on lost revenue based from piracy would not be the total downloaded copies of a piece of software, but a way to find out how many of these people were actually interested in the software from a consumer level (that is, if that were possible to accurately predict).

I think 99% of the people who have downloaded flash rarely use it, and wouldn't even sniff buying it.

Either they don't plan on buying it or they're college students, imo.

You make a valid point. The question that arises is will it be habbit forming. So they start using that excuse, then you get to the point where you are saying to everything you pirate, well, I wouldnt buy this anyway/

Just one of many examples: Do warez folks cheat on taxes more than people who buy legit software? Probably.

Moral slopes are the most slippery.

This thread has covered just about every single stereotype out there concerning "warez people." If you think that websites are the extent of warez you are very wrong. Take a spin around EFnet on irc and you will know what I mean. irc is just the tip of the iceberg. (and efnet is for lamers)

Don't confuse the real warez scene with the kiddies on kazaa, morpheus and the losers running those websites. The real scene is very much like a business, its made up of executives, working people and the consumers...except the real difference being in that nobody gets paid for their work.

So why does warez really exist you ask? No its not about making money or ripping companies off or any of that garbage, IMHO its about getting stuff before everyone else and the thrill of defeating the companies and the other groups. I remember having the DoD win95 rip before everyone else and getting to run my mouth to my friends. Although dod is pretty much done and some of its members have gone to jail, they were big at the time. If you look at it closely the people doing the real hard work ie. the actual people and groups ripping, cracking and releasing the software don’t get paid.

Any fool can go on kazaa, download a program and sell it...but they are not part of warez, so dont confuse these kiddies with the real people.

If you want to go after the real warez groups doing the hard work then fine, but when you go ranting about the "warez" websites and kazaa you blatantly offend anyone the slightest way affiliated with the real warez. First, before you rant, figure out what you are talking about. Kazaa and websites do not represent warez or anything that it stands for.

WizyWyg you need to stop reiterating the RIAA and governmet propaganda, its really just a load of corporate garbage. Just like those public service ads, you need to challenge things you hear in the media, not just accept it and preach it.

astra4 deserves some credit for standing out against the brain wash in this thread.

Let me get this straight. You are worried about obscene banners and use a screen name of "KingDong"? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

I that's a very good point you made there chrisb.

Originally posted by chrisb
Let me get this straight. You are worried about obscene banners and use a screen name of "KingDong"? Seems a bit inconsistent to me.

I'm venturing a guess here, that it's not the banners that are upsetting him, but the fact that the punk kids that run that site are making money by putting them there.

:eek: in all honesty, no matter how hard you try that same warez site you found will end up on another host somewhere else. most even use foreign hosts to make it harder.

im not at all justifying their actions, but its just the truth.

Earlier I read about someoen says that cracks and warez sites are kinda, in the way that they get the software out thwere so when you becomegood and start to make $$ with it you can buy a legit copy. I beleive ti o be true that any goo dperson would after using a warez or crhacked copy (just to learn it) woudl fork out the $$ to buy the software...but honestly why woudl soemoen that doesn't even make mmoney off of the programs want to pay for them? And how can you become good enough to make money off the programs if you use them.

So i guess it could be kinda ok as long as in the long run they buy a legit copy.

You web hosts would make alot more money if you's wouldn't chuck someone for just having an mp3.

Suuuuure. Host illegal content and they'd start raking it in. Hmmm... don't think so, but you start a host and do that if you like. Make a lot of money...

Originally posted by smacx
This thread has covered just about every single stereotype out there concerning "warez people." If you think that websites are the extent of warez you are very wrong. Take a spin around EFnet on irc and you will know what I mean. irc is just the tip of the iceberg. (and efnet is for lamers)


Someone who trades or sells or distributes software without any compenstation to the owners/programmers/manufacturer of that program is dealing in WAREZ. There is no classification between a person who has a website or give files out on IRC. ITS STILL illegal. Illegal is illegal, crime is still a crime. Make no difference of how its gotten.


Don't confuse the real warez scene with the kiddies on kazaa, morpheus and the losers running those websites. The real scene is very much like a business, its made up of executives, working people and the consumers...except the real difference being in that nobody gets paid for their work.


Oh please, what a freaking crock of schite. Warez is still warez. Illegal is still illegal.


So why does warez really exist you ask? No its not about making money or ripping companies off or any of that garbage, IMHO its about getting stuff before everyone else and the thrill of defeating the companies and the other groups.

Because they dont want to fork over the dough to pay for it. That's why it exists. Why pay for something if you can get it for free?


If you look at it closely the people doing the real hard work ie. the actual people and groups ripping, cracking and releasing the software don’t get paid.

They do it because they know that its FREE. You think they paid to get those programs to crack. Hardly.


Any fool can go on kazaa, download a program and sell it...but they are not part of warez, so dont confuse these kiddies with the real people.

Uh, warez, the distribution of programs without compensation to the original manufacters of those programs. Hmm.

Anyone who does this is A PART OF WAREZ.


If you want to go after the real warez groups doing the hard work then fine, but when you go ranting about the "warez" websites and kazaa you blatantly offend anyone the slightest way affiliated with the real warez.

Anyone who distributes, sells or provides a way to get these programs for free is affiliated with WAREZ. There is no distinction between anyone as long as they are doing something illegal.


First, before you rant, figure out what you are talking about. Kazaa and websites do not represent warez or anything that it stands for.

Before you come down on us for what is apparently a big problem, try and see why ITS ILLEGAL first.


WizyWyg you need to stop reiterating the RIAA and governmet propaganda, its really just a load of corporate garbage. Just like those public service ads, you need to challenge things you hear in the media, not just accept it and preach it.


You obviously skipped over the post earlier about how much money goes into making these programs, and that like any other business that loses money, one can lose their job. Its THE TRUTH, and its documented proof to support it. Dont like it, tough.



astra4 deserves some credit for standing out against the brain wash in this thread.

More like your reasoning for warez is nothing but brainwash.

Right are you guys saying if you where to go to somewhere like blackpool for example where this hard guys selling copys of lets saying s club 7 would you report him to the police?.

At a comdex type convention I saw a guy that had a tshirt that read:

"All software is free"
"All software wants to be free"


Kinda makes me wanna dig up a copy of vbulletin, copy it to a few aol disks and hand them out at the next convention :) :D

I but what i was saying on my first one is that no one gets caught, i know this boy who's been copying this radio stations shows for years and puting them on the net and it's been talked about on the radio station and nothings been done about it.
The only thing your gonna get into trouble for is child porn and nothing else, but if any of you guys are knocking stuff off then just go to someone that will host the stuff and forget the ones that won't.it's not good business to not accept someone just becouse of what they won't to do, which in my opinions great and most of you guys obviously have quite a few quid and not everyone does and when i say everyone here has alot of money that obviously won't include web hosts becouse of them being uptight.

This debate is moot. We represent an insignificant minority. The vast mojority of people utilizing the software we have discussed (my mother or sisters, for instance) lack the knowledge and skill to obtain cracks and such. The real enemies of the software companies, as pointed out earlier, are those that copy and distribute software as the genuine article. Copies such as this undermine a big developers image as they lack the necessary quality controls. In addition, these operations can take a BIG bite out of profits. Also, a fair portion of the individuals cracking programs are kids ... they matriculate to the professional community and become buyers. I have seen this happen among my friends. I'm not debating the legality of the issue, only the facts.

Originally posted by Bad Karma
hmm, doesn't like that four letter word. it is of course <removed: gee it might be censored for a reason>

sorry not that hard to get around the ****ing swear filter :p

I blame Bill Gates for this mess, if he didn't steal from Apple and Xerox, we wouldn't neccesarily be here today...

Speaking of the later, they should never have made the copy machine. Just imagine how many books were never sold because someone borrowed one and copied it.

Then again there's Mr Kodak for designing the camera and making copies of everthing we can see. Yep, he's guilty too.

And don't forget Mr. Gutenberg. and his famous press. The nerve of someone trying to make an exact copy.

No, its Mr. Money for inventing money and Mr. TV for invent TV making us want things we cant have!

actually, i blame Mr Society for giving a **** about possessions in the first place :P