Recently, we (as in Aborior) have allowed support on our site to accept online cheques. Now, like many things when you're dealing with a third party, the online checks can only be drawn from a US bank (I'm Australian myself for those who don't know).

I immediately added to our web page news of the support, adding "Pay by Online Cheque" to our web page. And it got me thinking. "Cheque" is a UK English term is it not? I believe the spelling "Check" is used in the US English. So I thought, while I usually use the spelling "Cheque", I should use "Check" in this case because the cheques must be drawn on a US bank anyway.

Anyway, it got me thinking about the whole UK/US English divide. I remember learning HTML code and wondering why code such as:

<centre><p>Print this</p></centre>

didn't work. I'm hoping you'll realise why.

For the Internet, being the worldwide network that it is, what do you people do in terms of your use of language? I've always used Australian English (I don't know of any differences between it and UK English, besides slang). I would assume that most people keep it consistent over a site. If you don't know the differences, here's a few

cheque - check
centre - center (and other "re" vs "er" ending words)
mum - mom
recognise - recognize (and other "se" vs "ze" ending words)

And damn I've had a mind blank... there's plenty more. Who can forget the infamous MS Word bug that prevented the language being changed from English (US)? Or all those American spell checkers that like to have a go at UK spelling?

It's not a huge problem, but there are many more cultural divides. Several times I've been frustrated by a form validator that has told me "You did not enter a state or Zip code" - or that "ACT" was an invalid state (not that the ACT is a state, but near enough).

Then there's all those prices in US dollars, and measurements in feet and miles (although the metric system seems to be dominating now).

And world globe images that you see rarely show anything but the American side (not that I see such globes as offensive or anything, its just something I notice).

And, of course, there's not only the predominantly English speaking countries. We get a lot of customers from European countries where English is in some cases a second language (Sweden, Denmark, Netherlands, Germany). I also read somewhere that in China a red traffic light is used for "Go" rather than stop? And that's a commonly used icon.

I know there's been a fair bit of talk recently about "internationali-s/z-ing" the Internet. But what do you all think anyway? Are people "internationalised" enough to know the differences and not look at "cheque" as a spelling mistake?

Oh, and I don't mean to say that I'm offended by globes not pointing at my country, transactions being in US dollars and the use of z in place of s... this is just some discussion stimulus more than anything.

As it happens ize spellings e.g. recognize are the correct UK English spelling of the word - for some reason UK English had phased them out in favour of ise spellings of words.

U know, U are right m8

:D

Yuz peoples cant not speak goodly.

I speak more betterer thin yuz. :)

You're right in the fact that many sites do that (have prices in U.S. dollars without stating it, require states and don't allow for other countries, etc.) True, there are reasons for it, though taking a broader view is advisable. I've recommended it for years. The sites I create have measurements in both U.S. and metric, specifically state that currency amounts are in U.S. dollars. The forms have drop down boxes with all the states, another for all the countries, and a postal code field that is separate from the Zip+4 fields. I also add "U.S.A." to the address since not everyone will know every state in the U.S.

It has helped some of the businesses I host do business with people from various other countries, as far away as Japan, by making it easy for their prospective clients.

English has long been the international language of business, and American English is the variation used. Since the Internet was created in the U.S. and we have the greatest infrastructure for it, allowing for more web sites here, it seems natural that many of those sites would have a geocentric perspective.

That may account, at least in part, why even though Tim Berners Lee, the creator of the World Wide Web, is English, HTML code uses the American spellings (like center instead of centre).

I think some Americans are cognizant of English spellings. After all, we have both in use on our side of the Atlantic and do not universally use either. We still have some theatres, colours, ye Old Shoppes, and the like. Some businesses even use them, I suppose, to either look more refined or to differentiate themselves in small ways.

You say potatoe, I say potato... ;-)

I've owned MGBs in the past and leanrned that a spanner was a wrench, the bonnet was the hood, the boot was the trunk, etc.

Any internationalizing of the Internet, if such a thing is possible, is likely to mean more people adopting the American English meanings and spellings for many things (on their web sites), as so many businesses have done adopting American English as the language of business.

More people speak Chinese than any other language, though more peoples speak English than any other.

That doesn't preclude businesses in other countries, particularly if they cater to people in those countries, from stating their prices in their own currency (especially with the European Community adopting a single currency) and naturally, still using metric terms. If they plan on selling to American,s however, they would do well to include American sizes as well, just as American web sites should include metric ones.

There are plenty of sites that have currency and other converters that allow the easy and rapid conversion of information from one system to another.

One of the greatest things about the Internet, in my opinion, is not the huge advertising medium that many businesses think of, but that it allows for easy communication among people throughout most of the world. This is especially true since so many speak English as a second language.

Over time, this may become an important factor, or at least influence, in a lasting world peace, as the citizens of planet Earth get to know each other better. We could probably accomplish more by making sure the entire world is wired to the Internet than spending billions on weapons. That may be why some countries, like Iraq, are not wired at all.

I think more people will become familiar with other terms and other customs. As a scuba diver, I know the presurized cylinders we use and refer to as tanks in The U.S. and Caribbean, are referred to as bottles by the British. Conversely, many of them know what we mean by "tank".

I've become familiar with metric temperatures, weights, and heights without need for looking up conversions (except for precision), although European sizes for clothing may still require looking things up (I just learned I wear a size 44 shoe while adding links to more calculator conversion sites).

The more we talk to ech other and get to know each other, the more we will learn about each other and the better off the world will be, and all the people on it.

in terms and spelling peculiar to different english speaking nations, just as television and radio broadcasting
has reduced variations in dialects and accents in favor of
"broadcast" english.

It is quite common for actors and media personalities in the
USA to shed their regional accents, (especially southern
accents)in favor of a homogenized accent without a
detectable regional flavor.

Due to the larger population size of the USA, and it's
outsized influence due mainly to the export of it's
entertainment, clothing, literary, and technical products,
citizens in other english speaking countries have
developed a love/hate relationship with America and the
products that it offers to the rest of the world. Although
Canada shares a long border with the USA and a common
language in all but one Canadian province, there is a
determined effort on the part of many Canadians to avoid
cultural assimilation by American media, entertainment,
economics, language, and ATTITUDE.

Standardization benefits the growth of the internet. english speaking people who frequent the internet will
become more Americanized. The growth trend for the internet
now favors non-American and non-english speaking new users.
(with the exception of India) American internet users will
become more internationalized by the influence of these new
users on the development of e-commerce and "portal"
websites. It is becoming a good internet business practice
to adapt websites to be user friendly to non-english
speaking visitors.

I see great potential for internet growth coming from India,
where there are more people who speak english as a first or
second language than in the rest of the english speaking
world combined. Americans who study the growth potential of
the internet are aware of this. India will influence web
development in a way that will "favour" (notice the "u") the
UK style of speech and spelling, if Indian internet growth
is rapid enough. The best guide for this trend can be seen
on a site like "www.rediff.com", compared to the Indian
version "www.rediff.com/rediffin.htm". I think that the
english language will blend the current pronounced differences in a way that will result in more UK style terms
and spelling in American english largely because of the
growth of the internet in India.

If the UK fully embraces the Euro as it's national currency
and the European Union develops into an economic entity
that can be compared to the USA, other english speaking
countries may tend to more closely identify themselves with
the USA than with the UK, mainly because the UK will be
more influenced culturally and economically by Germany,
France, Spain, and the other countries in the Europenan
Union.

With China attempting the folly of controlling the internet
content and accessibility for it's citizens, I see much
more potential in the near term growth of the Indian market.
The constraint that must be overcome is the current wired
connection of telephone services to only 10 percent of
Indian households. This inadequacy can be overcome more
rapidly with investments in satellite services and superior
wireless technologies like http://www.ricochet.com . Every user
friendly American designed website should either favor an
Indian english language style, or offer a seperate link
to an Indian, or at least a UK style english version.
(Just my long-winded .02 !)

Yes Tabernack,

and in the space of 5 words and 6 exclaimation marks on your part you've close to doubled the weight of this page...

Try snipping....

To the original posters - great prose! :) Personally I've gone a little the other way and been 'assimilated' Instead of colour and Mum I use the american version - first due to html, the second as my fiance and daughter are those US types and it's rubbed off after all this time. My accent is apparently becoming a little bit US around the edges (but them again it's a little english around the edges too so it works out I suppose *lol*)

Greg Moore

Originally posted by akashik
Yes Tabernack,

and in the space of 5 words and 6 exclaimation marks on your part you've close to doubled the weight of this page...

Try snipping....

Snipping complete (didn't mean to tire your fingers :)). BTW "exclaimation"? or is that "exclamation"? I haven't seen that variation before.

I personally use colour, centre, cheque, and every other way it was originally written. That's the way they taught us in school here in Canada.

But I have found more often as I get older that I end up debating which spelling to use.

Snipping complete (didn't mean to tire your fingers :)). BTW "exclaimation"? or is that "exclamation"? I haven't seen that variation before.
[/B]

No that's the 6:06am - not enough sleep - too much coffee variation used on occasion by the pale smelly guy who needs some sun and a good long bath. (It's summer here after all)

*chuckle*

Greg Moore

yellowed,

I think you are over estimating any influence India may have. For the reasons you cited (that I did earlier) American English has become the de facto standard and will continue as such.

The low percentage of telephones in India, and presumably computers, will tend to minimize, perhaps negate, any influence India might have. It also doesn't help that they have a cumbersome bureaucracy that makes it difficult to accomplish anything.

I think that the english language will blend the current pronounced differences in a way that will result in more UK style terms and spelling in American english largely because of the growth of the internet in India.
I think logic would dictate otherwise.

Every user friendly American designed website should either favor an Indian english language style, or offer a seperate link to an Indian, or at least a UK style english version.
Why go through all that trouble? Don't Indians know that checks and cheques are the same, are they confused by color and colour, theatre and theater?

It is still English and the differences in spelling are minor. A lot of businesses might consider it a waste of resources. It would make more sense to translate to other languages if they were after an international market.

I could see it now, Canadian English (questions end with ayy?, American English, English English, et al. Should we have English with an Irish and Scottish brogue? The poor web site visitor will be either tired or confused by so many choices for the same language! Or is that confuzed?.

I agree with Duster. I think it would be too confusing if you had to choose language everytime you entered a website. (Ofcourse only if it was different versions of english).

I come from Denmark and we learn the english (in school) as they write it in UK. This doesn't mean I have a problem reading "american english". I hardly notice the difference.

two examples: color - colour/neighbor - neighbour

There's really not a big difference. (okay, just 2 examples) This is just my opinion and I know that Im not
an expert here.

There are no experts on this, Jonah, and your perspective has been helpful in the discussion, especially since you live in a country where English is not the native language.

One thing that some sites should have that is related to language, even if they are only in English, is a glossary of terms when any used on their site may be different.

I mentioned some automotive terms earlier that are very different between AE and EE (American English and English English). I also mentioned some diving terms that are different. These aren't a difference in spelling, but altogether different words.

I think it's important for any site administrator to make the site understandable to all the people they wish to serve. This includes making techical terms understood. Sometimes it seems as if "tech" is a different language to many people.

hmm... well in India, people tend to use colour instead of color. But hey, we decide when to use what :) Most Indian websites would use colour, but if we are writing to an American, or targeting an American audience, we leave the u out. Its an automatic thing. Its not something we go out of our way to do, it just happens :)

I dunt think the english used will really matter. As long as the point you are trying to make gets across and understood. Wether you add a U or leave it out, doesnt matter. I dunt think anyone would be offended by it.

Hello there,
Well, as Duster says, it will take atleast 5 more years for India to become a major force among the website audience.

Reasons:

1. Not many people can afford more than just email. Here I'm accessing through a dial-up. The costs are ISP: Rs.15 to 20. Phone company: Rs. 25. That makes USD. 1 per hour. In browsing centres. it's around USD. 0.60 per hour.

2. Not many people can afford computers and Internet. Mostly they access from browsing centres. So they mostly use it for email/chat/job search/educational search. These are the majority of types.

3. Indian Bureaucracy and corruption: I am ashamed to say that it took more than 60 days to transfer a connection between two exchanges that are 20 KM apart in the same city - Chennai (aka Madras). And the shameless wireman demanded "formalities" after plugging the line (after 50 days), even before activating it, and got lawsuit threats and a call to the Vigilance Bureau and the consumer protection forum in return from me. BTW, this took more than four visits to the phone exchange and umpteen calls to the officers and three calls the the Assistant General Manager - customer care.

The biggest joke is that the phone is in the Doctor's quota - am a physician. Just what would be the case of uneducated people? You can get things done in India real fast only if you bribe someone. It's gotta change for good.

4. And all Indians who speak English can understand American English - but not Fahrenheit temperature (* celsius), and the pounds, stones, miles per gallon, etc. So include the metric system. It's followed in the SI (System Internationale de Units) system too. So, why don't include the global standard too?

I can quote more reasons, but am running out of time now.

Regards,
Wing.

Actually, I said I doubt India will have an influence, not that it's a question of time. I think any predictions seen here are more from national pride than reason. They are much like brand new web sites I've seen that say they are getting (or expecting) thousands of hits a day, and asking for advertisers vbased on that. Most have disappeared or changed.

It takes both being early and being large to be a major influence. This is why, at least in the U.S., the trade names Xerox and Kleenex are often used generically for photocopies and facial tissue. There are many other similar examples.

There's a business axiom about the first company to penetrate 50% of a market setting the standards for it (or something to that effect) That would suggest that by the time India, despite its population of over a billion, is wired to any appreciable degree, it will have virtually no influence and will merely be another country with access.

For clarification, is the SI (System Internationale de Units) system largely the metric system?

I would definitely agree that many American web sites should include it (or at least a link to a conversion calculator). Even neighbors on our continent use it.

It is one are we are behind the rest of the world. Much of it has learned English. We need to learn metric. Bit by bit, we are, out of necessity, and no effort is being made for complete conversion.

The metric system is SI, but not all SI is metric. SI just specifies standard units, like Pascals for pressure, Joules for energy and Ohms for electric resistance (correct me if I'm wrong on any of these).

I would certainly support the use of SI units on the Internet for the sake of internationalising (although is Kelvin SI for temperature or Celsius?)

Isn't India one of the largest software developing nations on earth along with Ireland?

At least changing back and forth from Celsius to Kelvin is easy since the Kelvin scale was based on Celsius in search of absolute zero. Subtracting 274 degrees from Celsius converts it to Kelvin. That's a whole lot easier than converting between Fahrenheit and Celsius.

Tisk tisk tisk Duster, 273.15 :D And it's add to go from Celsius to Kelvin!

Really confusing ain't it?

hmmm... I think the Indian Industry, will have an impact, on how the net works, wether directly or indirectly. It wont make an impact on the "website" sides, but more on the technology side.

I do agree, with Duster though. Its all a BIG bubble right now. Which is about to go boom any moment. A shake out is being felt. But the ones who will remain, will remain forever. We are moving towards the B->B market now. So I think there will be major changes and impact on how the internet works in the near future.

Yes, it can be confuzing, confusing, or whatever. :D

Duster,
As Lawrence says, SI recommends units for the uniformity.

And I still find it difficult to calculate pounds, gallons, etc.

And Absolute Zero is 0 K = -273.15 deg C. But atleast we need not follow Kelvin scale for temperature. It's a necessity for those gas laws (Charles', Boyles') (if I remember my high school physics right). Imagine saying "Hah! it's too cold outside, 278 degrees". And the fahranheit - what with 32 and 212 instead of 0 and 100 on the celsius scale?

And my prediction that India will not make an impact in the net user base and customerbase for the next 5 years is not based on my national pride or the lack of it. It's a neutral opinion, based on my own observations.

Oh yes, some great technological development is being done here - I read about ppl developing bluetooth technologies etc. But we have to wait and see.

Atleast, please email president Bush to convert the American units to the metric system. It's easy to add m, c, d, D, K, M, G, T to the suffix and to add zeroes at the end instead of those *crazy* stone-age calculations.

Wing.

china will have much more of an impact than india will in the next five years... wait and see!

oh wow! i didn't realize i bumped a really ancient thread! lol!

No offense but this thread is well over two years old...

Greg Moore

yup... i did realize that and even posted about it a second before you! :D

How do these threads pop up, do people search for them and not realise the date, or do they somehow magically come to the top of the posts list in the lounge?

I've always wondered, and this time curiosity has gotten the better of me :D

--Shaun

I think so. Once or twice I've caught myself almost bringing something back from the dead. :) The date on the last post can hide itself quite nicely at times.

Greg Moore

well... i was searching with INDIA as a keyword and this was one of the threads that popped up!

the title caught my fancy and i clicked on it. i read it not realizing that it was so old while writing my first comment. it was only when the page refreshed that the date coincidently caught my eye... or else i would never have realized it. who looks at dates anyway!

so now you know! :)

I thought the ghost of Lawrence had arisen.

I think we'll put this one back to sleep.