thread (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=367980)

See the latest post on the thread for why, and respond there if you feel the need to.

Please contact the helpdesk if you have any questions. The edit were in line with forums guidelines.

Well, I don't have questions. It's a comment for your use, to point out that whatever the rationale was, it's out of line, and maybe you need to consider changing your guidelines. A discussion like that one about hosts that doesn't actually mention any hosts is of very limited use for its intended audience.

And moderation that discourages serious contributors isn't going to help a community based on contributors.

Think about it, rather than posting more boilerplate responses.

A discussion like that one about hosts that doesn't actually mention any hosts is of very limited use for its intended audience.I just read through your article, and it looks like it stands up quite well without naming names. In fact, I would say it is more credible without the names, because then people actually do the research steps you set out for them and see real customer experiences, instead of using your lists (which had no basis in firsthand experience, as far as I could see) as a shortcut around your own advice!

That's really the problem, I guess - that's how you see it, but that's not necessarily the test, is it? That is, I wrote the article, it was seriously intended to be useful, and from my point of view it needed that section. Any real community site thrives on the fact that a diversity of viewpoints is best, as long as it is intended to (and does) have a positive result.

Anyway, I moderate a busy site myself. What I would have done is:
- at a minimum, let the person know about the edit, in this kind of situation. you can't bother in every case, and there's no point with the malicious, but if someone has spent a lot of time making a contribution, you owe them a heads up.
- have some sort of an explanation of what the problem was
- I would have included a copy of the text I cut out; people usually don't keep a backup. it would have been useful in this case, since some of it would have actually fit within the rules as described in your message.

By the way, before you spank me again for not going to the helpdesk, or whatever - this isn't about the specifics of this case. It's a discussion of how the moderation is unnecessarily discouraging contributors. And the point of having a discussion, rather than some kind of PM or email exchange, is to have more impact than merely trying to hash out the uninmportant details of some specific incident. It's a waste of time to do that. It's also largely a waste of effort to message in private when all can learn and discuss a topic.

... It's a discussion of how the moderation is unnecessarily discouraging contributors....Then discuss that. Give reasons why you believe our guidelines should be changed.

Forum guidelines (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/rules.php) clearly state: You may not use discussions to recommend, praise, or belittle other products or services, or any company; without first hand experience of those products or services. This includes companies recommending other companies. Any post not meeting a moderator's criteria will be removed without notice.If you believe the rule is archaic or otherwise detrimental to the community, please give us reasons that it should be removed. Don't just complain because it's being enforced.

We could argue the intent of the rule, versus the rule. Or we could start a poll and see how many members would be in favor of removing it. But let's not just bash it.

It is what it is. We either agree with it and post within those guidelines, or we lobby to change the guidelines that we feel do not fit within this community.

A discussion like that one about hosts that doesn't actually mention any hosts is of very limited use for its intended audience.

Really?

Imagine that I had written a detailed article on how to choose a bicycle. After all that, I listed which brands people seemed to be recommending. Why would I do that? I'd just given you the tools to make that decision yourself, and the popular brands may not be the best for your needs.

Telling people what companies seem to be popular after providing such useful information is counterproductive IMO. Aside from the forum rules, the article is stronger without naming who people seem to recommend.

Lois

You know, I've just wanted to start a similar thread. Today, I got a "nice reminder" that I did an advertising thread. About a post I did a MONTH ago. The post got apparently deleted today.


It was about how phpBB and phpNuke are the most exploitet open source web applications out there (the response is still there) and that I happen to like phpWebSite better (which is a fork of phpNuke).

There, you have it. I wrote it again. And I linked to a site where you can preview all free themes for phpWebSite there are. For free. Without any single advertisement. There isn't even an advertisement on my site, I run everything out of my pockets and have a daytime job that is completely unrelated to that site. See it as a hobby.

But anyway, my post got deleted. Actually, folks, I think you should reconsider your moderation rules. And maybe, just maybe, consider writing first, deleting later. I'm administrator of the currently most popular phpWebSite forum out there (I wrote it again, damn I must be a spammer) and WE move posts to the moderation forum and discuss them. We usually don't delete.

And no, I don't want to post at the helpdesk. I haven't stolen my time.


This is a reminder about your posts or other actions at WebHostingTalk Forums.

The moderator who issued this reminder has this message for you:

=======================================
You may not publish or discuss any information regarding your product or services, or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services you are, or have been, associated with. This includes, but not limited to suggesting your own services, or services of partners, clients, employers or friends. The Advertising Forums are for advertising.
=======================================

If this reminder is about a specific post, you can see the post here:

<<< REMOVED >>>


If this reminder is about a rule you broke, you may receive warning points if you break this rule again. To review forum guidelines, please use the link to the Rules at the top of every forum page.

And I linked to a site where you can preview all free themes for phpWebSite there are.

You may not post any messages that is commercial by nature.

You may not post any message that directs others to any pages at your own commercial domain, including informational pages. A commercial domain is defined as a site that receives any type of income or links to any income producing properties.

You may not solicit users for any project or purpose external to the forum; public, private, or commercial. Most importantly our member base is not a resource to be "mined" by individuals, groups, or businesses, for profit or not for profit.

Need I say more? Your website has nothing to do with WHT, so by posting it, even if it is a free resource, it's commercial, and has no place. Just get over it lol

I think the mods here are pretty reasonable overall. They err more to the agressive side, but when you take into account how large this forum is, and how many people try to spam here, it's warranted.... and I say this as someone with some warning points. :)

Did you miss this rule?
# You may not publish or discuss any information regarding your product or services, or future (possible) products or services, or any product or services you are, or have been, associated with. This includes, but not limited to suggesting your own services, or services of partners, clients, employers or friends. The Advertising Forums are for advertising.
Products or services...paid or free.
Then there's this rule as well:
Public posts debating these rules and/or moderators' enforcement of such, will be removed without comment. We encourage feedback however and invite you to use our help desk if you have any questions or concerns.

Please, use the helpdesk.

Need I say more? Your website has nothing to do with WHT, so by posting it, even if it is a free resource, it's commercial, and has no place. Just get over it lol

This thread was about phpNuke, not about WHT. I even did <CL Edit - Link Removed>, how much more on-topic can my site be here?

Like: Hey, you wrote about WHT but are a user here so your post is to be considered an advertisement, right?

What use is writing here if you have to fear about having your posts deleted without warning even a month after you wrote it?

I even did <CL Edit - Link Removed>, how much more on-topic can my site be here?
There you go linking to your own website again. I take it you either can't read or just don't care.

Then discuss that. Give reasons why you believe our guidelines should be changed.
Ok, now that I've cooled down a bit, I try to post something more productive. Without linking to my site :-)

Say, for example, Sergey Brin happens to write to this forums. And someone asks a question. He'd point to Google and have his post deleted, because he made it.

Something not as esoteric. Say, someone else, not from Google, happens to write in this forums. And someone has a question. And he'd also point to Google and have his post deleted, because he's using Ad-Sense.

Next level. Someone... blah... And he'd point to Google and have his post deleted. Because on his site, he's offering Google SEO tools like a back-link checker, a spider-simulator, whatever.

~~~~

Next scenario. Someone's asking about a CMS. In fact like in my post. And wants to know about, say, phpNuke. Someone points to OpenCMS. And gets his posts deleted, because he's using a product from there. For example phpWebSite.

Or has an article about phpWebSite on his page to which he is pointing. Or a site offering free services (without Ad-Sense, without anything else). Happened for me.

~~~~

Next scenario. Is it considered true to the forum rules, if there's an indirect link? For example, if I'd link to the german Wikipedia article about phpNuke which in turn links to my Burzi interview, would that also be deleted? Would the post be deleted if someone else (not me) pointed to my free themes demo site, but using phpWebSite? Or pointing to the free themes site but not using phpWebSite?

Would my post have been deleted, if I had pointed to a phpWebSite theme designer's site who's not affiliated with me (but using the same cms) but has a link to my site? Why has the whole post been deleted and not just the link?

Indirect linking (e.g. linking to a site which has a link to your site prominently displayed) has resulted in posts being removed and warnings in the past. It depends on the context and the moderators discretion. The point of the rules is to make the community more enjoyable for all :)

Simple rule: self-promotion or linking to your URL in posts in the main forums will result in warnings and posts being edited/deleted. The only place to post your URL and self-promote are your signature (see rules for the rules on that) and the advertising forums (See main rules + announcements in each forum).

Other people linking to your site who are not connected to you or your company (and have never been connected in the past) is fine as long as you haven't asked them to post on your behalf etc...

Links removed.

You may not post any message that directs others to any pages at your own commercial domain, including informational pages. A commercial domain is defined as a site that receives any type of income or links to any income producing properties.

You may not post any message that directs others to any pages at your own commercial domain.

I had kiesler.at since years. I'm a computer science student still, I don't even have my own company. I don't generate income through my website. If your aunt margie had a website, would you consider it to be commercial because of a domain name like margie.com without her offering any services?

Please point me to the page on my site offering (even commercial) services. Thanks. ".at" stands for Austria, that's where I live. ".co.at" would be commercial Austria.

Originally Posted by buzzy
"... It's a discussion of how the moderation is unnecessarily discouraging contributors...."
By Software Revenue
"Then discuss that. Give reasons why you believe our guidelines should be changed."


Well, I just saw this thread and have to say that I felt unfair treatment from a moderator (names not mentioned) when I fist came here and I was a little bent. So I discussed the matter with the moderator in private. I understand that sometimes a hard line must be taken because of abuse and so few moderators but at the same time you do not want to discourage new members who just want a place to talk.

If ya'll feel that someone is abusing the board then do some due dilligence. Ask questions to flush out true intent. Try this appraoch before getting all confrontational, especially with new posters. You never know if you are actually scaring away a decent member.
I think it is fair though to take a harder approach with more senior members, say 50+ posts. Because they have been here for a while and will be less prone to take offense.

Things many people forget is that we do not have a personall vendetta against people.

We come off a bit harsh sometimes but you should see the amount of issues that we have to deal with daily.

rkiesler - In order for change to hapen, reason needs to be provided. As SWR said point out your reasons.

However, please do it in the helpdesk. There is no reason to make a drama out of something that could be handled personally with the indivdual moderator or moderator team.

Rules do change, I have been apart of quite a few of them. However reason has to be applied behind that. I cant just suggest a new rule "People should be able to link whatever they want" and provide no reason to back that up.

Just my 2cents.

:lovewht:

Thanks Jimerson, I've just submitted a ticket. For reference, it has Ticket ID EZI-81636. I usually like to keep discussions like these public but if you want to do them closed-group, I'm also fine with that.

It is VERY hard to distinguish between a commercial website and a non-commercial one. The mods here really don't have the time to look through all pages of your site to make sure it isn't commercial in any way. And iamgine the amount of link spam if non-commercial websites were allowed to be linked to.

The rule seems fine as it is now, in 1,628 posts I havn't needed to link to any of my websites, therefore you probably shouldn't either :).


Alex

You don't have an academic background, right? Academic papers always refer to something to underline statements. It's nice to do "me too" postings or tell stories. But some of those stories have already been told, linking can reduce redundancy as well as make the signal-to-noise ratio better in cases.

It's nice that things work for you. This doesn't mean, they work for everyone or even me.

All we can say is that the rules are in place to reduce the amount of "look at my site" posts (if you saw how many of these happen in just one day, you'd probably understand a bit more of the flip side). We have to try and keep the majority happy, not the few, so if that means you can't post links to your site, that's unfortunate. It is, however, the same for everyone, so we would hope that you can still participate within these restrictions.

I wrote the article, it was seriously intended to be useful

You may well have intended it to be useful, however you must also see the very real potential for threads where the OP was paid by a hosting company to mention them in a positive light and belittle their direct competition. If you allow it to happen unchecked then the floodgates open.

All we can say is that the rules are in place to reduce the amount of "look at my site" posts (if you saw how many of these happen in just one day, you'd probably understand a bit more of the flip side). We have to try and keep the majority happy, not the few, so if that means you can't post links to your site, that's unfortunate. It is, however, the same for everyone, so we would hope that you can still participate within these restrictions.


Question Bear. What about people who plug their site/service in their signature?
P.S. I just added my plug today, so...

Sigs are fine, as long as you don't say "I offer xxx, see my sig" in a non-advertising section post, or include plans or too many links, etc....
There's rules for them too. ;)

buzzy's original post (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=367980) was dated 01-26-2005, and we're discussing this now? :eek2:

buzzy's original post (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=367980) was dated 01-26-2005, and we're discussing this now? :eek2:
Maybe a long vacation? :eek3:

It was reported, apparently.

You don't have an academic background, right? Academic papers always refer to something to underline statements. It's nice to do "me too" postings or tell stories. But some of those stories have already been told, linking can reduce redundancy as well as make the signal-to-noise ratio better in cases.


Thats what QUOTE tags are for... you can repost whatever story you want, WHT is not an academic paper :). Also I would appreciate it if you didn't try to prod at me even though I'm not on your side.


It's nice that things work for you. This doesn't mean, they work for everyone or even me.

Aussie Bob has over 10,000 posts, there are tons of people on WHT with a large quantity of posts who can follow this rule. If it works for a majority, it should work for you, or you can adapt so that it can work for you.

Call me a suckup or whatever you want, however if WHT didn't have the rules it did it would definitely not be the community it is now, and I applaud the efforts of the liasions and leaders who everyday deal with thousands of reports that you have no idea about.


Alex

Maybe a long vacation? :eek3:
Hmmmm. Vacation. :homer: