RE : http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4403070%255E2,00.html

Do you think either Pakistan or India will use their nuclear capabilies if/when they engage in full conflict?

i sincerely hope not. i mean russia and the usa managed not too. the situation over there grows worse everyday unfortunately. i honestly dont trust them not too. the international community should make it known in the stongest possible way that they shouldnt use nukes. unfortunately india has a far greater military strength according to the numbers that were on the news earlier. methinks pakistan might see nukes as a leveller.

You can never guess what both of the countries are capable of, but again I certainly hope it doesn't come down to use Nuclear Weapons as a defense mechanism. Both countries have gone to war before, it might happen again. I think what's so outrageous to me is why they are going to war for a small piece of land, Kashmir. But India won't even consider piece talks until Pakistan stops Militants/Terrorists.

How would the use of nuclear weapons in pakistan/india affect the united states? :confused: ( I don't know a whole lot about them)

would depend upon the yields involved, but generally kicking up huge amounts of radioactive material into the atmosphere, possible pollution of surrounding water tables, umm two countries throwing nuclear missiles at each other slaughtering millions and millions of people.

its not exactly a situation we can refer to the history books too much for, bombs are a lot different now compared to august 6 th & 9th 1945, whatever the outcome it wouldnt be good for any of us. it has the potential to affect the entire world.

Originally posted by Alanis
How would the use of nuclear weapons in pakistan/india affect the united states? :confused: ( I don't know a whole lot about them)

well it's relative, it might work like this if they go nuke:

BOOMM

then china has to defend it's boarders ( historically speaking china always defends it's boarders ) so tibet get's stock-piled, China will not cross the boarders, it has conflict with both india and pakistan on disputes of land, why become the common enemy.

part 2, BOOM and Iran is now nervous, Isreal is nervous, Sadam is having himself a good time. Sadam at that time will attempt to slip people into Iran ( Iran is taking all the Muslem, Christain, Jewish survivors ), to get as close as possible to the nuke facilities in terhan.

Part 3
USA get's panicky, starts moving things around and even NATO is getting nervous of the USA. USA is the Wild Card, this is something that they have nothing to do with, but the world is demanding that they flex the big stick. Russia ( nato associate ) is providing intelegence to the USA at this time. North Korea Kim get's ichy to show off what he can do and fires a missle into lower orbit without telling anybody, missles fly from USA, China, Russia, and they are targeted to north korea.

part 4 BOOM

Pakistan and India are forgotten nations in a wasteland, US ecconomy and the Chinesse economy recover fantastically, increase the trade deficit between the both nations. USA will buy 70% of High labor, low wage products from China, ****ting the tiger countries into another criss.

Tom Clancey eat your heart out.

Mike

Originally posted by Alanis
How would the use of nuclear weapons in pakistan/india affect the united states? :confused: ( I don't know a whole lot about them)

I've heard more Americans will have jobs in the computer industry.

Heh.

Originally posted by Alanis
How would the use of nuclear weapons in pakistan/india affect the united states? :confused: ( I don't know a whole lot about them)
Many consequences in the timeline, including totally stuffing up the USA war on terrorisim, IMO. :)

I voted no. I already have four nipples, I don't need any more.

no, but if more hope than anything. I personally think they'll have more sense than to open that little pandora's box. There's a few people around that are just waiting for the first guy to push the red button before they then feel they won't get blamed for starting it...

I would be intertesting to here from a local (Kunal for instance) on what it's really like there. After 9-11 the international media made it seem like every american was hiding under their beds with loaded guns ready to *pop* their mailman when he arrived.

Interesting times we live in

Greg Moore

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
RE : http://news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,4403070%255E2,00.html

Do you think either Pakistan or India will use their nuclear capabilies if/when they engage in full conflict?
I don't think it is all that wonderful to burn/poision people via chemical weapons, nor burn/kill/blow up them via conventional weapons, etc. The main difference with nuclear weapons seems to be that not only do you kill the people in the area, you also kill the area for quite some time. A conventionally bombed city is rebuildable (which is a good thing, as people do come to their senses eventaully and settle things). A nuclear bombed city isn't rebuildable for some time.

It really makes you wonder though. What the heck is the 'ideal' use of nuclear weapons? About the only thing I can think of is if the enemy was in the desert somewhere in caves. We didn't use them then, and I really can't think of an acceptable use of them.

If your objective is to capture land, then it isn't wise to radiate the area in which you wish to occupy. I don't think they will use them.

Exactly, nuclear missiles (ICBMs etc) are long range weapons - use them too close to home and the results would harm you just as much as the enemy...

Originally posted by Chicken
If your objective is to capture land, then it isn't wise to radiate the area in which you wish to occupy. I don't think they will use them.

Exactly. A more effective use of bombs that produce a similar effect are neutron bombs.

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Fusion/Fusion5.shtml

They're a much smaller exposion, but the neutrons are very damaging to living tissue. In effect they wipe out organic life, but leave inorganic material like buildings and tanks fairly undisturbed.

Thankfully because of the small area they affect they've never had much use in combat as you need to drop a lot more to produce the same overall 'kill' ratio.

You have to hand it to the human race - we're quite good to separating our fellow man from their mortal coils.

Greg Moore

Originally posted by Chicken
It really makes you wonder though. What the heck is the 'ideal' use of nuclear weapons? About the only thing I can think of is if the enemy was in the desert somewhere in caves. We didn't use them then, and I really can't think of an acceptable use of them.


to leave the enemy dead, completely. it's understood that the users of it would be causing geocide at a huge level, plus a complete loss of the above ground resouces.

as a tool, You have your enemy bow to you and beg not to be blown up, and when they get it, you both play chess.

2005 is when Saddam get's his bomb, bet you if the Isreal does not get to him on time, he will let it fly. then there will be peace in the middle east. No arab want's Nuke's around, and with Saddam dropping one in the holiest city ( don't forget the 2nd or 3rd most important arab relic is in the city ), every arab, if the like or don't like isreal, will have to converge to eliminate the iraq threat. War is one thing, but the destruction of holy relics is something very different.

Mike

the objective of nuclear weapons is to simply irradicate the enemy in the quickest possible manner. as for long \ short range, doesnt matter, the amount of rubbish it kicks into the atmosphere, locally between india and pakistan wouldnt make too much difference, it would still kickup junk into the atmosphere and rain down more radiation on the rest of us. none of it is ideal. its kids with toys and its about time the adults gave ema good wallup and sent em to bed without any supper.

Much of my college studies were about military history/philosophy and the various Intelligence Services around the world.

Unfortunately there is a very high probability that India will strike first (preemptive strikes were Russia's main goal) in the attempt to neutralize the Paki's nuclear arsenals (25-50 warheads), which might not be that hard to do. In the process they will kill somewhere in the range of 10-30 MILLION Pakistanis, if the Pakis get even one nuke off and hit New Delhi with a population of over 12 million....well you get the idea. We won't even get into the discussion of what kind of fallout will hit the Pacific Rim/Australia. BIG MESS.

A good chunk of India has populations of 200-500 people per sq/km, Delhi has over 1000 per sq/km. Even a misfired nuke will take out a minimum of a sq/km, not counting fallout. India's earliest tests were in the 4-6 kiliton yield range, but their most recent tests were in the 45-60 kiliton range (claimed) which would be enough to completely level Karachi with a population of over 7 million and Islamabad with over 7.5 million. Also keep in mind that India possesses somewhere between 60 and 200 warheads, depending on who you believe.

The other factor is China, who provided the Paki's with most of their technology, if India (who hasn't always had the best relations with the ChiCom's), China might not take to kindly to India leveling Pakistan and might even take it as a threat as well.

Bottom line is this, it's a very complex problem that can get real simple real fast. We may have averted WWIII between us and Russia but may very well see a massive nuclear exchange between 2 or more countries in that part of the world. I haven't even touched on the mentality, philosophy, military or prestige factors for these countries. All it takes is one country thinking they can make a preemptive strike and win and you have total annihalation on your hands, and right now there are some pretty arrogant people at the helm in India.

The good news is that they might just take out the remaining Al Queda or Osama hisownself in the exchange.

Lets hope not,
However facts prove:

India has a larger navy, groud-force, airforce and warships .. however.. Pakistan has advanced, better and more war-heads and China on their side ....
If it goes down to WAR, i really cannot see a winner as a few war heads will do the trick ....

INDIA AND PAKISTAN: AT THE LINE OF CONTROL : http://asia.cnn.com/interactive/world/0205/kashmir.facts/frameset.exclude.html
Nuclear Weapons and Active troops : http://asia.cnn.com/interactive/world/0205/kashmir.facts/content.3.html

my 0.2 cents..

I've never been worried about nuclear war until now. *heart sinks* :(

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
I've never been worried about nuclear war until now. *heart sinks* :(

you and the southern asians have the most to worry,

the currents that run go south and west also you have a southerly wind that happens seasonally

Mike

Originally posted by ADEhost


you and the southern asians have the most to worry,

the currents that run go south and west also you have a southerly wind that happens seasonally

Mike
Thanks for cheering me up even more. :eek: :( :bawling:

As more and more countries gain entry into the nuclear "club" the countdown to extinction grows ever louder.

So far, Pakistan had launched two missiles against india. India had yet retaliate for both attackes. Who is the EVIL and the GOOD?

Missiles AT India?

Ok I doubt that as:

1) They have tested 3 missiles.
2) Thats a VERY silly thing to do!


Should I be watching the news?

Whats so special abiut this Kashmir? Is there gold, oil or some other reason to fight over it.

Lives are at risk here and to fight over a small patch of land is just outragus.

Its always ths same thing and always comes down to the middle eastern countries to start a war.

Its about time they all started growing up and look after the most important thing, and thats life.

No good to you when your dead.

umm i have the 24 hour news on in the background and i havent heard about any offensive? no missiles have been launched by either side against each other to the best of my knowledge. few tests of missiles, few test detonations in the past but as yet no offensive. unless somethings kicked off today. i hope not i was going out for a drink tonite.

Whats so special about Kashmir?

Its where both India and Pakistan have been fighting, its their joint war playground.


Biggest problem I see in this situation?
When it gets to the point that they realize its time to move their mobile warheads into places that stop them being captured in the event there is any ground fighting near thier cities. They do not want to have these machines sitting around incase they get targeted as they will. So starts the process of command dispersal, this is when problems could arrise. 130+Nukes being taken to remote places, problems can be hijacking, accidental detonation, communications. If there is an accidental bang any country in these situations there is danger if one of the connected parties has a repuitation for pre-emptive strikes, they may very well launch without without due diligance.

I doubt very much if any of them will nuke intentionaly and hope no accidents happen.

Im not going to mention China.

Opium.
Opium.
Opium.

Here's an interestign link I found.
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/8125/nuclearkashmir.html

the fact is if either of these mobs had half a brain cell between them, then they would never use such weapons.....

THe ramifications are far far reaching, and can impact the whole damn planet.......is it worth millions or billions dying over some miserable piece of land. I think not.......

I dont understand why everyone in that region seems to hate each other so much.........

peace..........

what id like to know is how any subs the usa and russia etc have sat off their coasts waiting to 'quell' any dissent. odds are the minute the try to launch anything they would get taken out.

i dont think any nation is responsible enough to have this sort of weapon but some nations certainly seem to single themselves out as definately not being able to have them. russia and the united states manage to make it through the cold war without destroying each other, europe seems to do fairly well at not using them but the though of pakistan and india and even iraq having them doesnt rest very well with me.

they have to realise that those weapons will affect everyone else and therefore other people have a right to take their toys and send them home.

I think the US + its allies, generally countries involved in WW2 know how devistating the first use was.
Unless my history is wrong, the only time a nuclear device has been used on another country was on nagasaki and hiroshima. each pretty much leveling a city, and that was only what? a 1 megaton bomb? Think what todays multi-warhead ICBM's could do.

As an american, I got to laugh at this, many cultures disaprove of us, but they will want us to interfer if Pakistan and India go to war.

this time I think the USA should stand pat, and let the Russians and Chinesse solve it, this directly has an effect to them. ( side note : china has increase there forces along both boarders, so look for a land grab if there are missles flying)

having friends in both nation I have been getting e-mails as how worried they are, Whom knows, maybe they all need thier a cuban - missle -criss for them to learn how to play with the nukes.

Mike

As soon as someone drops a nuke, watch your hosting business start to shrink, IMO. Watch Wall street go down the toilet [again]. The ramifications for a nuclear attack by any nation will be more than the spreading clouds of disease and death, IMO. :mad:

A poll on a webhosting forum online about nuclear war, huh? Oh boy...

If you think these two countries are going to launch nukes at each other, you need to get your head checked.

By far, this has got to be one of the most lame threads (and poll) I've seen here in a while.

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
[B]A poll on a webhosting forum online about nuclear war, huh? Oh boy...

If you think these two countries are going to launch nukes at each other, you need to get your head checked.
Really?? Thanks for your opinion. I think there's some pretty smart folks around the world who take this threat very seriously. But you know better hey?? Just because you don't think there is a threat, that doesn't mean I need to "get your head checked". The threat of one of these countries using a nuke is very real, IMO.
By far, this has got to be one of the most lame threads (and poll) I've seen here in a while.
Your opinion is noted. :cartman:

I think, though I could be wrong, Tim meant that just because countries have nuclear weapons, it doesn't necessarily mean they'd use them in a conflict. While this is true, the fact that a country does have them and could use them is always cause for concern. It is the same concern that makes you feel as every country shouldn't have nuclear weapons (not even just the 'good' ones). The same concern that makes you feel that maybe no country should have nuclear weapons.

Actually that was a pretty 'lame' response to a VERY serious and real subject that, contrary to your narrow views, could gravely affect not only the web hosting business but every aspect of our lives. In case you missed it, we have a global economy today, that includes India (the most populated democracy in the world) and Pakistan.

Originally posted by Chicken
I think, though I could be wrong, Tim meant that just because countries have nuclear weapons, it doesn't necessarily mean they'd use them in a conflict. While this is true, the fact that a country does have them and could use them is always cause for concern. It is the same concern that makes you feel as every country shouldn't have nuclear weapons (not even just the 'good' ones). The same concern that makes you feel that maybe no country should have nuclear weapons.
I thought it was a very relevant poll and discussion given the troubled times we live in. I was just a tad puzzled at why Tim thought it was -
one of the most lame threads (and poll) I've seen here in a while.
and why because I have concerns over one of these countries using nukes, that means I -
need to get your head checked.
I've never been too concerned about any nation using nukes until now. I lived in Pakistan for 4mths, 10 years ago. The thought of a nation as primitive as Pakistan having nuclear capabilities is worrying indeed. It is my opinion that they will not hold back from using their nuclear weapons against India.

Originally posted by Patriot*~
Actually that was a pretty 'lame' response to a VERY serious and real subject that, contrary to your narrow views, could gravely affect not only the web hosting business but every aspect of our lives. In case you missed it, we have a global economy today, that includes India (the most populated democracy in the world) and Pakistan.
Agreed 100%. If either of those nations drops a nuke, just watch the NASDAQ and world markets crash. Something like that will effect all our lives. This is deadly serious stuff. :(

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
A poll on a webhosting forum online about nuclear war, huh? Oh boy...

Nothing strange here, what things normaly get talked about here that you activly and coragously envolve youself in, religion, science, so this is nothing new, and a lot of people do care about it.

If you think these two countries are going to launch nukes at each other, you need to get your head checked.

There are people yonger or not as understanding or from a different background who don't think like you or I do, just as well too. They dont need there head checked just because they have a different perspective.

By far, this has got to be one of the most lame threads (and poll) I've seen here in a while.

It's not Lame & you know it, I don't think you would have posted otherwise. :)

The missiles that these guys have got don't look as though they are using fingerprint and iris scanning or even htaccess, they look as though they use levers, maybe a button or two. Probibly as complicated as a JCB digger. The put more tech into there banners! I have a mechanical background, With a briefing on the weapon I think I could control it in 5 mins. They are all going to be terrorist targets. These terrorists probibly arent that smart when it comes down to playing with silly toyz.

QUESTION :

Would you give / share your root password to one of the nuke operators on either side, given he is sitting in a vehicle that could pop, could get popped, stolen, anything?

At the moment 130 of them are getting trusted with the real root passwords what we are all currently sitting on and what surrounds us.

Kashmir --- It's where the source of the Indus River springs. If India gets its hands on Kashmir, it'll choke Pakistan off its water supply.

During India/Pakistan partition in 1947, Kashmir had a hindu ruler but consisted (still does) of 80% muslims. According to the border commission, territories that were majority-hindu were to go to India, and those that were majority-muslim were to become Pakistan..

Turns out the British viceroy of India at the time was having an affair with the Indian Prime Minister's wife... so he ordered Cecil Radcliffe (the border commission guy) to give India the territorial advantage...

Consequently India got all the muslim majority areas aligning Kashmir just so that it would have a land route to Kashmir. If the muslim areas had rightfully gone to Pakistan this whole episode might not have occured.

There was supposed to be a UN plebiscite for the people of Kashmir --- which country they want to join --- But India has refused to let this take place for the last 50+ years :eek:

I really think India is the aggressor in all this... Musharraf is basically a good guy. Why doesn't India hold talks like the int'l community has been urging them to do all this while? Pakistan should stop cross-border terrorism? WHATEVER! India takes every possible opportunity to blame Pakistan for every possible thing --- even if it's not true. Case in fact --- there was a hoax Indian plane hijacking a while after 9/11. Before even getting their facts straight India immediately started blaming Pakistan for hijacking their planes. Turned out, the plane hadn't been 'jacked afterall :rolleyes:

Pakistan tested its first nuke AFTER India tested theirs. And why shouldn't they? If they didn't then India would always have the upper hand --- threatening Pakistan with it. Nukes on both sides act as a detterent.

I don't think Pakistan will strike first --- but it can't just sit around doing nothing if India throws a bomb over the border.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/29/nuclear-fears-usat.htm (http://)

I hope that link works, I have never tried to link to something on a message board. At any rate, things are heating up over there more and more every day. Who knows what is going to happen over there, but I am sure worried about it. If they do drop nukes, it will affect us all.:(

And it didnt work...I will try one more time.....


new link (http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2002/05/29/nuclear-fears-usat.htm)

How you could fail to see what I meant and why, just shows how silly you're all being. Apparently people would prefer to say "No, it's YOU that is being lame!" or "You just don't understand". Yeah, sure. A POLL on a web forum, everyone acting like they have good reason to be worried about this happening, it's silly. A lot of countries have nukes, and out of them, a lot of them probably shouldn't. This is not a new thing. The 50's are over people. You can stress about it and practice duck-and-cover-ing, and act like only the 'wise' would know enough to stress and sure, that's your prerogative, but when the world doesn't blow up, you can understand my views a little better and why I said this (way back then). I'm not going to go on about it. Why? Because it's silly and this thread is lame! It's one thing to discuss it and concerns -- no comment or argument there. However, having a poll about if it's going to happen, as if any of us would have a clue, and to even tell each other why we should be concerned and coming up with all these scenario's, it's ridiculous. Of course it _could_ happen. Will it? I seriously doubt we need to worry *at all* about that and people are expressing a lot of stress and are acting overly concerned about it. I don't mean it as in people are acting concerned about an issue such as this -- but to say they are showing signs of being "overly concerned". This is not logical.

Believe me, I fully understand what's going on, whether you wish to dismiss my views or not, or just claim that I don't understand the ramifications of it. If this was just a discussion, that would be one thing. But a poll and people's scenarios and even acting like it's *likely*, is just off the wall and those people need to get their heads checked (since they seem to be allowing a thread like this to worry them). This threat has been a reality for a while, this is nothing new, nor is it anything new on how people react to any discussion about it. But, a poll? So, this is lame. "CNN reported today, that web polls are up by 34% of people that think nuclear war between India and Pakistan is imminent". Heh. It wasn't the fact it was about world events or nuclear war, but people thinking a poll would be taken seriously. Further, that people are talking about it like they know what they are talking about. Moreover, that those people act like it's a very likely scenario. This scenario is very *unlikely*, whether you wish to believe it or not. Again, if you think they are going to throw nukes at each other and people on a web forum saying things has anything to do with the politics of it all, you need to get your head checked. It's so unlikely this will happen, that it shouldn't even be discussed in the manner it has been, as if people should worry. They have no reason to. Hence the "needing head checked" and "lame poll". It's not the topic, it's the aspects I mentioned in this post that make it silly. You don't have to agree or understand what I'm saying.

If it helps anyone understand why I said it above, it's because it's just going to get people worried for no reason. To talk about it in the manner it's been discussed, having a poll with people saying a nuclear war is going to happen, or not happen, is just going to confuse more people and cause stress for no reason (and given some of the comments, claims and reactions here, that seems it's apparent that it is having that affect on some people). Here's another link to accompany the one above that someone else posted:



http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002/05/30/pakistan-troops.htm

"Fernandes criticized Pakistan and Western nations for raising the specter of nuclear war in South Asia.

"I don't want to take it very seriously ... Only those people can think about using a nuclear bomb whose thinking is not in order," he said. "One should not talk so loosely."

And Indian and Pakistani officials have repeatedly said that a nuclear conflict is unlikely."


I'll sum my post and opinion up with those quotes. Do you realize how *very* unlikely something like this is? Yet look at some of the posts and people's reactions. I guess my point isn't getting across well, or people are too sensitive. I'm sure other's get what I'm saying though, even if I might not have said or worded it well enough. Anyway, have at it, I didn't mean to ruin anyone's fun.

Discussion and learning are good things, wild speculation is not productive.

Just the same, its hard not to have an elevated level of concern. No doubt all the nuclear powers are at elevated alert status right now; there's a damn war happening in the region; terrorists operate left and right in the region -- the potential for unexpected events is higher here than conflicts in the past, and this situation certainly is not like any cold-war scenarios experienced before.

The bottom line is that it remains a volatile situation deserving of concern.

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
"CNN reported today, that web polls are up by 34% of people that think nuclear war between India and Pakistan is imminent". Heh.

"43.3% of statistics are meaningless!"

yeah but 98 % of staticts are made up

Originally posted by mwatkins
Discussion and learning are good things, wild speculation is not productive.

Just the same, its hard not to have an elevated level of concern. No doubt all the nuclear powers are at elevated alert status right now; there's a damn war happening in the region; terrorists operate left and right in the region -- the potential for unexpected events is higher here than conflicts in the past, and this situation certainly is not like any cold-war scenarios experienced before.

The bottom line is that it remains a volatile situation deserving of concern.

I did not say that everyone was acting paranoid in this thread, firstly. However, you said it more simply than I -- "wild speculation is not productive." Exactly that. I'm not saying it's impossible. It can happen, but the likelihood is so, so far from a reality, that some of the discussion here has been a little over the top and paranoid (and ridiculous). Pardon me though; I saw a thread that said "POLL: Nuclear War??" and it just seemed pretty silly and my comments were a result of that, as well as some of the posts I saw in this thread. My comment was not a reflection on everyone in the thread. However, according to the current running 'poll' (heh) 33.33% of the people that 'voted' on a nuclear war, believe it's going to happen. I have to wonder where *they* get their insight.

I hear you.

A similar story - I got heavily involved in a number of long running threads on Silicon Investor after 9-11 -- after the initial hysteria a large number of contributors buckled down and did some serious learning on the politics and reality of the region. Some fascinating discussions as a result.

Sometimes some wild speculation kicks off good discussion.

True, very true. I guess I just don't like people passing information as if it's fact or likely and get people all worked up -- and see people buy into it. Certainly, some wise comments have been made, as well as some educated one's, I'm always glad to see those. I guess without those type of comments, I don't find it very entertaining or productive. However, you're right, some interesting topics can come out of it, or perhaps one or more of us might even learn something, or educate other's on something... the good thing about web forums.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob

Agreed 100%. If either of those nations drops a nuke, just watch the NASDAQ and world markets crash. Something like that will effect all our lives. This is deadly serious stuff. :(

I would like to preface this comment with the following: these are my views without the moral outlook or understanding. just business.


Well it would affect you and your nation more than me and my nation.

Markets crash, we wont die from that, food, high probability that the USA will go into hording, cost of consumer products. well that would be the big problem.

for example your basic white undershirt, that might double in price. because we have to use nafta labor ( about 4 to 20 times higher than southern asia labor ).

overall, it would have a net benifit to the USA unless the radiation got close to the USA, everyone in the USA would end up employed because the largest pool of cheap labor has been removed from markets. USA would have to rebuild it's steel industries, clothing and maybe even manufacturing of consumer goods.

given it might be a tough 5 years, but the net effect would make the USA stronger overall.

Mike

Originally posted by Aussie Bob

Really?? Thanks for your opinion. I think there's some pretty smart folks around the world who take this threat very seriously. But you know better hey?? Just because you don't think there is a threat, that doesn't mean I need to "get your head checked". The threat of one of these countries using a nuke is very real, IMO.

Your opinion is noted. :cartman:

You are right. The threat is very real.

I am sure most of you guys from west are not aware of what is going on here. Many militants and jihadies are infiltrating from Pakistan occupied Kashmir into Indian part of Kashmir and they are making bomb blast and killing 1000's of innocent civilians on the name of JIHAD.

There has been 100's of attack on military camps, 1000's of blast in Kashmir and jammu region by jihadies who claim themselves to be fighting for free Kashmir and all these activities are going on since 1989 and more then 65000 people are dead in conflict.

The latest attacks which raised the tensions include - December 13 2001 attack on Indian Parliament where 4-5 terrorist attacked Indian Parliament and more then 15 people died including many security personals.

Tensions was further raised when Some terrorist killed 35 people of Indian soldier families including 3 months, 5 years, 6 years kids and wives of Indian soldiers.

The dispute has mainly effected Jammu and Kashmir States of India and rest of states are not much effected directly. For example Bombay (mumbai) where I live have approximate Nil terrorist activities. But who knows when Nuke will strike, thanks for Pakistan Fundamentalists government because every Indian city is in there missile range :eek:

Anyway, if you see the history of Pakistan you will find no leader in Pakistan has been successful in stoping Muslim fundamentalists activities instead of being having in full power and I have seen on T.V. while US army was dropping bombs on Afghanistan and Pakistan soldiers was guarding boundaries to stop alkida people from entering into Pakistan, many Indian reporters crossed borders from Afghanistan to Pakistan with live cams and reports which was clearly showing that If a t.v. reporter can cross the borders with live cameras very easily, so what can you expect from alkida guys who are professional militants ?. :eek3: I am sure most of Alkida people are now in Pakistan and yesterday Mr.Ronald (US secretary of state) said that there is proof from USA intelligence department that many Alkida people have infiltrated India and are planning several attacks and increasing terrorist activities. :(

In short, I don't see there is going to be any peaceful solution between India and Pakistan in near future.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob

I don't think Pakistan will strike first --- but it can't just sit around doing nothing if India throws a bomb over the border.


Also for you knowledge India have NO FIRST NUCLEAR USE POLICY since beginning and was ready to sign this agreement with Pakistan but Pakistan REFUSED because obviously they know very well that in case of war pakistan can not fight with India in conventional way due to size of Indian economy and military strength.

I appear to me like we guys search for new hosting customers these guys plan new ways to bomb innocent people and destroy economies and speared there terror and yes it is effecting business. We dropped many plans due to very serious war fears here in India. So, if possibilities of war effects this much, IMHO there will be huge world economic breakdown after nuclear exchanges between any 2 countries. :rolleyes:

I know I might get flammed for saying this but I'll say it anyways.

Mahinder, your opinion sounds exactly like that of biased person. Sorry but thats just how I feel. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I have absolutely nothing against Indians as I have a lot of Indian friends, but your remarks really set me off. I am sure fellow Pakistani's on this board feel the same way.

Pakistan has a right over Kashmir, PERIOD. The maharaja of Kashmir during the time of partiton was a Hindu, and Kashmir was and will always be a Muslim majorty area. Quaid-e-Azam was a great and wise man, he knew that if the people of Kashmir had their own will they'd opt to join Pakistan rather than India. However the maharaja chose to go with India as the decesion was left to the Kashmiri people. The descesion was obviously shocking as Kashmir being a Muslim majority area rightfully should have gone to Pakistan and the Kashmiri people weren't even asked before this move was made. Thats history face the facts and admit that Kashmir was snatched from Pakistan.

And lets not get into the rubbish talks about Pakistan is not willing to negotiate or have talks. India is the one who absolutely is not willing to listen.

If India is supposedly so liberal then why not let the Kashmiri people decide their own fate??? IMHO, there should be a poll held by the Kashmir peopl... LET THEM DECIDE WHO THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF. If they want to be a seperate state, then their wishes should be respected. If they want to be part of Pakistan or India then again their wishes should be respected.

This thread has the potential to turn into one large flame. I advise the moderators to lock this thread as a lot of Pakistanis and Indians are part of this board.

- Asher.

Originally posted by Tim_Greer


I did not say that everyone was acting paranoid in this thread, firstly. However, you said it more simply than I -- "wild speculation is not productive." Exactly that. I'm not saying it's impossible. It can happen, but the likelihood is so, so far from a reality, that some of the discussion here has been a little over the top and paranoid (and ridiculous). Pardon me though; I saw a thread that said "POLL: Nuclear War??" and it just seemed pretty silly and my comments were a result of that, as well as some of the posts I saw in this thread. My comment was not a reflection on everyone in the thread. However, according to the current running 'poll' (heh) 33.33% of the people that 'voted' on a nuclear war, believe it's going to happen. I have to wonder where *they* get their insight.

Tim,

I understand what you are trying to say is very realistic and more practicle but situations here are not exactly what you think.

Many Pakistani leaders including General Musheraf has clearly said in many interviews like on CNN, BBC, that pakistan will not hasitate to you nuclear weapons first.

Also here is the quote from Pakistan Minister for Railways Javed Ashraf Qazi have to say:


"If it ever comes to annihilation of Pakistan then what is this damned nuclear option for, we will use against the enemy," Pakistan Minister for Railways Javed Ashraf Qazi said.
http://rediff.com/news/2002/may/22war10.htm


Here is the link from pakistan based form what some of pakistan people think

Pakistan should not hesitate to use Nuclear Weapons if Attacked (http://www.paknews.com/forumcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=1&t=002395)

and here is the link from indian forms what indian people think

Pakistan Nuclear Doctrine: Reading List (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004711)

Knocking out Pakistan's nuclear capability (http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005017)

so you can see lots of stuff going on around here. :o

guess what, is Pakistan capable enough to protect its nuclear weapons!. Will they be able to stop Jihadi's and Fundamentalist from getting hands on Nuclear warheads!

Who knows !!!

Hey, I do not go on who is right or wrong. Obviously as I am Indian I will think India Holds true position but who knows upto what extent politicians can go to protect there personal interest.

Take a example if lots of social movements currently going in Pakistan to bring back democracy, may not be preferred by Gen. Musheref and to take away people's focus from it he can go upto any extent to protect his ruling in region.

I can be wrong, but this is my understanding at this moment. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ^Kyo

Pakistan has a right over Kashmir, PERIOD.
- Asher.

Biy let me toss into this also,

India has the right,
by the oldest law in history,

" I'm Bigger so therefore I win "

the last Big player to suffer to this was the British loosing the USA, the ending of the Ottoman empire and the end of the ruling class in china.

Just pointing out something.

being bigger does not mean your right.

Mike

Originally posted by mahinder


You are right. The threat is very real.

I am sure most of you guys from west are not aware of what is going on here.


Yes I think a lot of ppl in the west are aware of the the situation in kashmir. Also they are aware of UN officials not being allowed into kashmir by the indian government and they are also aware of amnesty international reporting the worst case of human rights violation by the indian army/government. Rape and pillage is rife in that region too.
Also just a sidenote mahinder, aren't you forgetting the ayodhia incident where a muslim mosque was torched down and 100's of muslims killed by hindu extremists?
Mahinder do everyone a favour and keep your political bias to yourself, after all this is a webhosting community, not the bombay times.

Originally posted by ^Kyo
I know I might get flammed for saying this but I'll say it anyways.

Mahinder, your opinion sounds exactly like that of biased person. Sorry but thats just how I feel. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I have absolutely nothing against Indians as I have a lot of Indian friends, but your remarks really set me off. I am sure fellow Pakistani's on this board feel the same way.

Pakistan has a right over Kashmir, PERIOD. The maharaja of Kashmir during the time of partiton was a Hindu, and Kashmir was and will always be a Muslim majorty area. Quaid-e-Azam was a great and wise man, he knew that if the people of Kashmir had their own will they'd opt to join Pakistan rather than India. However the maharaja chose to go with India as the decesion was left to the Kashmiri people. The descesion was obviously shocking as Kashmir being a Muslim majority area rightfully should have gone to Pakistan and the Kashmiri people weren't even asked before this move was made. Thats history face the facts and admit that Kashmir was snatched from Pakistan.

And lets not get into the rubbish talks about Pakistan is not willing to negotiate or have talks. India is the one who absolutely is not willing to listen.

If India is supposedly so liberal then why not let the Kashmiri people decide their own fate??? IMHO, there should be a poll held by the Kashmir peopl... LET THEM DECIDE WHO THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF. If they want to be a seperate state, then their wishes should be respected. If they want to be part of Pakistan or India then again their wishes should be respected.

This thread has the potential to turn into one large flame. I advise the moderators to lock this thread as a lot of Pakistanis and Indians are part of this board.

- Asher.

I could not agree 110% more ....

I have seen it a million times over on CCN/BBC/ITV NEWS (you name them), When ever Pakistan is ready to make negotiations Indian always has some other ideas.

Just because the country is much bigger they feel they are so much supreme, when the fact is if they were so good it would not of taken them 50+ years to sort all this out.

As for nuclear power, if anyone thinks India has better equipment you guys are wrong, I did a full case study on this for history for almost 16months.

Pakistan is better equipped nuclear power wise (and India knows it), but India has a larger (not necessarily better) Army, Navy and Air Force....

My 0.2 cents!

Originally posted by rally


Yes I think a lot of ppl in the west are aware of the the situation in kashmir. Also they are aware of UN officials not being allowed into kashmir by the indian government and they are also aware of amnesty international reporting the worst case of human rights violation by the indian army/government. Rape and pillage is rife in that region too.
Also just a sidenote mahinder, aren't you forgetting the ayodhia incident where a muslim mosque was torched down and 100's of muslims killed by hindu extremists?
Mahinder do everyone a favour and keep your political bias to yourself, after all this is a webhosting community, not the bombay times.
:D :agree: :beer: :agree:


EDIT : Does India really think it can attack Pakistan and all the other Arab/Muslim countries including China and just doing to sit there and watch. haha lol :eek:

I tell you what it's going to be bad for India, just image the number of people UAE will be sending back home ... hehe, then whats going to happen to the Indian econnomy...

Ops, forgot about all those hosting companies, thats have call centers there.

Originally posted by ^Kyo
I know I might get flammed for saying this but I'll say it anyways.

Mahinder, your opinion sounds exactly like that of biased person. Sorry but thats just how I feel. You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. I have absolutely nothing against Indians as I have a lot of Indian friends, but your remarks really set me off. I am sure fellow Pakistani's on this board feel the same way.

Pakistan has a right over Kashmir, PERIOD. The maharaja of Kashmir during the time of partiton was a Hindu, and Kashmir was and will always be a Muslim majorty area. Quaid-e-Azam was a great and wise man, he knew that if the people of Kashmir had their own will they'd opt to join Pakistan rather than India. However the maharaja chose to go with India as the decesion was left to the Kashmiri people. The descesion was obviously shocking as Kashmir being a Muslim majority area rightfully should have gone to Pakistan and the Kashmiri people weren't even asked before this move was made. Thats history face the facts and admit that Kashmir was snatched from Pakistan.

And lets not get into the rubbish talks about Pakistan is not willing to negotiate or have talks. India is the one who absolutely is not willing to listen.

If India is supposedly so liberal then why not let the Kashmiri people decide their own fate??? IMHO, there should be a poll held by the Kashmir peopl... LET THEM DECIDE WHO THEY WANT TO BE A PART OF. If they want to be a seperate state, then their wishes should be respected. If they want to be part of Pakistan or India then again their wishes should be respected.

This thread has the potential to turn into one large flame. I advise the moderators to lock this thread as a lot of Pakistanis and Indians are part of this board.

- Asher.

Asher do not try to create conspiracy before mentioning full facts. There is lots of stuff missing in what you have described and at present its pretty late here to give you links to all those UN agreements and facts about what is going on in Kashmir. I will surely post them when i had a time.

Anyway, this thread is not about Kashmir issue, it is about Nuclear use and as I said before I don't go on who is right or wrong, but nuclear is very bad idea and Pakistan should understand it before making statements on .T.V. and claming to use nukes on Indian cities in case of attack.

As you must be knowing many countries embassies like United States, U.K., Australia and many other countries have already declared as threat of life in India and Pakistan and have suggested or even forced to its citizens not to travel in these countries because of threat of war should be serious concern for world business.

Hey, Kashmir issue is not going to resolve until there is no infiltration and killings going on in Kashmir. Regarding Poll, for your information Kashmir is independent state of India and like every other place general Polls are conducted in the region for selection of the state government and all leaders are Kashmir's and hey belongs to Muslim community.

After going through all, I only do not understand why terrorist killing innocent people of my country and people like you are not discouraging them. Why mass murders are carried out on forces trying to protect innocent Kashmir people ??.

I never understood these things properly and seeing what's next.

Asher, Nothing personally against you. Just my 2 cents. :)

Originally posted by mahinder


Kashmir is independent state of India

Not sure how many Kashmir's will agree, maybe you missed that thousands of Kashmir's walk in London, saying "get India out of Kashmir" few months back...

Originally posted by mahinder


Asher do not try to create conspiracy before mentioning full facts. There is lots of stuff missing in what you have described and at present its pretty late here to give you links to all those UN agreements and facts about what is going on in Kashmir. I will surely post them when i had a time.

Anyway, this thread is not about Kashmir issue, it is about Nuclear use and as I said before I don't go on who is right or wrong, but nuclear is very bad idea and Pakistan should understand it before making statements on .T.V. and claming to use nukes on Indian cities in case of attack.

As you must be knowing many countries embassies like United States, U.K., Australia and many other countries have already declared as threat of life in India and Pakistan and have suggested or even forced to its citizens not to travel in these countries because of threat of war should be serious concern for world business.

Hey, Kashmir issue is not going to resolve until there is no infiltration and killings going on in Kashmir. Regarding Poll, for your information Kashmir is independent state of India and like every other place general Polls are conducted in the region for selection of the state government and all leaders are Kashmir's and hey belongs to Muslim community.

After going through all, I only do not understand why terrorist killing innocent people of my country and people like you are not discouraging them. Why mass murders are carried out on forces trying to protect innocent Kashmir people ??.

I never understood these things properly and seeing what's next.

Asher, Nothing personally against you. Just my 2 cents. :)


Conspiracy??? Yeah sure, sure whatever makes you really happy. Go ahead and state the facts that I missed, they are of real little relevance. Just for your information, I have actively studied world history including the history of India and Pakistan, I can guarantee that no one on this board would exceed my knowledge on that subject... since, oh, I've only been studying it for the past 5 years!

As far as your theory on mass murder goes, India has bsolutely no evidence that those people weren't Indian extremists in the first place pretending to be Pakistani's. So please lets not get carried away. I am not implying that they were but thats not a dissmissible fact.

I also dont have anything against you but you seem to love exceeding the extent of this conversation which is basically nuclear war.

- Asher.

Originally posted by mahinder


Why mass murders are carried out on forces trying to protect innocent Kashmir people ??.


It is exactly these forces amnesty international has conclusive evidence on rape, pillage and genocide.
If these forces were so nice and protecting the people of kashmir, why doesn't the indian government allow UN officials to observe kashmir?

Originally posted by cabalstudios


EDIT : Does India really think it can attack Pakistan and all the other Arab/Muslim countries including China and just doing to sit there and watch. haha lol :eek:

I tell you what it's going to be bad for India, just image the number of people UAE will be sending back home ... hehe, then whats going to happen to the Indian econnomy...

Ops, forgot about all those hosting companies, thats have call centers there.

cabalstudios may be you have some misinformation or you are trying to create humor that India is planning to attack china and Arab/Muslim countries. Enfact India has very good business relationship with gulf countries. :emlaugh:

Do not ignore the fact there are 1400 millions Muslims live in India (I guess more then Pakistan or any country around the world) and all are like brothers to us. Infect India have very good trade and strategic relationships with Arab and Gulf countries. India imports its all oil from gulf countries and gulf countries are heavily dependable upon India for food supply. Do you know UAE gets milk imported from India Daily !!!. I guess not. :spiny:

As you yourself agreed there are lots of Indian in UAE (upto my knowledge more then 50%) this shows how much trustworthy Indians are to gulf people and this is why they have adopted more Indian then from any other country. :eek3:

Also what you are talking about Indian Economy. Do you consider India as to be a big village!. You are wrong! Many Multinational countries from around the world including from USA have highly established consumer goods and retail industry market in India. If Indian economy goes down then it will probably take economy of many countries with itself. :erm:

Today businesses are global and they are not dependent upon one country, so any fools can think of India attacking other countries for no reason and get its already poor economy more poor. :crap:

Originally posted by mahinder


cabalstudios may be you have some misinformation or you are trying to create humor that India is planning to attack china and Arab/Muslim countries. Enfact India has very good business relationship with gulf countries. :emlaugh:

Do not ignore the fact there are 1400 millions Muslims live in India (I guess more then Pakistan or any country around the world) and all are like brothers to us. Infect India have very good trade and strategic relationships with Arab and Gulf countries. India imports its all oil from gulf countries and gulf countries are heavily dependable upon India for food supply. Do you know UAE gets milk imported from India Daily !!!. I guess not. :spiny:

As you yourself agreed there are lots of Indian in UAE (upto my knowledge more then 50%) this shows how much trustworthy Indians are to gulf people and this is why they have adopted more Indian then from any other country. :eek3:

Also what you are talking about Indian Economy. Do you consider India as to be a big village!. You are wrong! Many Multinational countries from around the world including from USA have highly established consumer goods and retail industry market in India. If Indian economy goes down then it will probably take economy of many countries with itself. :erm:

Today businesses are global and they are not dependent upon one country, so any fools can think of India attacking other countries for no reason and get its already poor economy more poor. :crap:

India wants to be the supreme power in ASIA, and cannot bare that fact that it will never happen.

As for the hindus and muslims, the reason why the two countries separated was over religion... so dont even bring that into the equation...

You view is 100% bias, towards India.
I see it via 2 or 3 view's, and can only say a WAR, will be bad for either country.

EDIT : Why doesn't the indian government allow UN officials to observe kashmir

Originally posted by cabalstudios


India wants to be the supreme power in ASIA, and cannot bare that fact that it will never happen.

As for the hindus and muslims, the reason why the two countries separated was over religion... so dont even bring that into the equation...

You view is 100% bias, towards India.
I see it via 2 or 3 view's, and can only say a WAR, will be bad for either country.

SuperPower, hmm.. yeah, india want to become superpower in ASIA but not on the bases of milltary.

India want to become super economy like western countries where all Indian have food to eat and cloths to wear, shelter to sleep and guards to protect there assists from thieves and murders coming from third countries worlds with wrong intentions to fulfill there evil and non human motives the world today call them terrorists. :crap:

The HISTORY IS PROOF INDIA HAVE NEVER ATTACKED ANY COUNTRY FIRST and it has been always attack first by other countries and is forced to defend its entity.

yeah, you can surely confirm this from "rally" the most knowledgble person in History on WHT. :emlaugh: :D

About U.N. officials not allowed in india is not entirely true, infect India have arranged international journalist rallies and reporters on border area's to create reports for world media this is why you see many photogrphs and video of indian army and kashmir on international media. :stickout



Conspiracy??? Yeah sure, sure whatever makes you really happy. Go ahead and state the facts that I missed, they are of real little relevance. Just for your information, I have actively studied world history including the history of India and Pakistan, I can guarantee that no one on this board would exceed my knowledge on that subject... since, oh, I've only been studying it for the past 5 years!


ok, you may be right. BTW, my knowledge about History is not very good except my own country and it is not because I am noise or something like that, it is because I am more of technical type chap and study computers and linux rather then history and concentrate on conflicts. ;)

Also, regarding your claims of me being biased, I don't think I have to favor any conflict as my experience have taught me that western people are more civilized and smart to make there opinions on facts and I don't have to make loud sounds on "so person is wrong and so is not". :)

Originally posted by mahinder


yeah, you can surely confirm this from "rally" the most knowledgble person in History on WHT. :emlaugh: :D



Excuse me, when did i claim that I was an historian:confused:

Your joke is absolutely ridiculous, makes no sense whatsoever. Me and other people on this board (I'm sure) dont want to listen to your propaganada. Send it to the bombay times :emlaugh:.

- Asher.

i hope no one uses a nuke , it would just prompt other countrys to use them , hopefully both countrys can show maturity , and work things out properly .

Originally posted by case
i hope no one uses a nuke , it would just prompt other countrys to use them , hopefully both countrys can show maturity , and work things out properly .

Amen to that.

- Asher.

Originally posted by case
i hope no one uses a nuke , it would just prompt other countrys to use them , hopefully both countrys can show maturity , and work things out properly .

:agree:

It's not a question of who is willing to use nuclear devices, it's who is so terrified that the other person will use them first. I find it real hard to believe that nuclear weapons will be used as an offensive weapon. Everybody on this great planet knows the awesome damage that they will cause. But if the leader of a country is truly terrified that another country is getting ready to use them, then he/she will feel they have no choice. Fortunately, I think both India and Pakistan just worked around that.

And yes, if you can ever say that a nuclear weapon is desirable, it would be of the nuetron type. They cause very little damage to the buildings and landscape, with 99% of their effect being felt on organic substances.

And let's not forget about all of the 40-lb. backpack nukes that a single soldier can carry into the field. And the tomohawks, nuclear capable artillery shells, and other varieties. Nuclear weapons are not ALL long-range weapons. We have a great inventory of weapons that are theatre specific.

Originally posted by mahinder


cabalstudios may be you have some misinformation or you are trying to create humor that India is planning to attack china and Arab/Muslim countries. Enfact India has very good business relationship with gulf countries. :emlaugh:

Do not ignore the fact there are 1400 millions Muslims live in India (I guess more then Pakistan or any country around the world) and all are like brothers to us. Infect India have very good trade and strategic relationships with Arab and Gulf countries. India imports its all oil from gulf countries and gulf countries are heavily dependable upon India for food supply. Do you know UAE gets milk imported from India Daily !!!. I guess not. :spiny:

As you yourself agreed there are lots of Indian in UAE (upto my knowledge more then 50%) this shows how much trustworthy Indians are to gulf people and this is why they have adopted more Indian then from any other country. :eek3:

Also what you are talking about Indian Economy. Do you consider India as to be a big village!. You are wrong! Many Multinational countries from around the world including from USA have highly established consumer goods and retail industry market in India. If Indian economy goes down then it will probably take economy of many countries with itself. :erm:

Today businesses are global and they are not dependent upon one country, so any fools can think of India attacking other countries for no reason and get its already poor economy more poor. :crap:

As an outside observer with no asian or middle-eastern linage, I got to say the above is alot of mis-information.
1400 million muslims, if I'm right that's greater than the entire population of India which i think is around 1.1 billion and if I recall right, I think India has about 20% of it's population Muslim.

In reference to the UAE, the reasons the Indians are thier is because it's a cheap labor pool. head anywhere and you will find this is common in the middle east gulf nations.

If the Indian economy were to fall overnight, it would only take a bit of europe a small bit of USA. where the big hit's would be would be in the asian tiger countries. Why, all labor would shift over to India because the devaluation of the rupee. and the tiger nations would have to devalue to keep market share.

Oh how do I know all this, Just asked a consulate member of Dubia with his pall from Abu Dhabi whom is in my back yard enjoying olives and tea while the rest of the party is kicking.

So that you know most of that region has no land that is farmable. so they have to import everything. SO big deal on the milk issue.

Mike

One thing that we have to remember is the nuke is an older weapon that has changed over time. All of the major players with nukes only have them as a scare tactic to prevent wars, not cause them. To start a nuclear war, a country would have to feel that it is the last option it has. If a war is to start in India/Pakistan, it will have to be caused by ground forces or navy forces first. That is why we are asking these two nations to pull back their forces because the only thing two large armies can do is fight. With the recent withdraws of troops of both nations, I no longer see a threat of war in that region.

I think the events of Sept. 11th prove there are worse things to worry about (say those planes hit nuclear power plants? Millions could have died.). Nations such as the US are slowly putting up defences against nuclear warheads (such as that new plane that can shoot them out of the air with a laser.). But what if a nuke were brought into the target nation and armed inside its borders. Nations that host terrorists are trying to get portable nukes from nations like Russia and intend to use them. We have all seen that terrorists are not afraid of what their actions may cause. I'm more affraid of what Iraq/terroists may do than a whole nation.

I think the actions of the US in the Korean war prove that a nuclear war is no longer likely. While the war on terrorism is still the largest issue the world faces.