Hello WHT,

I have felt this is become necessary to make this post. It may not be “Politically Correct” but here goes nothing. J

WHT has been around for quite sometime and since then I’ve been an avid reader of this board for years. I will not make any specific examples however after reading this board for years, almost every single day, I read a post that has something to this extent.

Reseller Hosting Needed

Level of Support Required: 24/7… Instant.
Level of Resources Needed: Plentiful
Budget: Very Low
Quality of Service Expected: Excellent.

Let’s take a common sense approach to this. In fact, put yourself in the hosting companies position.

You have a client who wants to use pretty much whatever he/she can on the server without hardly any limitations, expect to be provided around the clock support, and they want to pay you what it costs to get an Extra Value Meal at McDonalds.

After the consumer finds a host, because sadly enough, there hosts out there that will promise Unlimited anything just to get a sale, (Typically, hosting enthusiasts call the “Kiddie Hosts”) three months down the road, the server is crashed, data is lost or some other horror story that is so frequently read about on WHT.

What is everyone else’s opinion on this?

Without such events how ever would we stay entertained here at WHT? Hosting is a learning process no matter what path you take.

Entertained? As a host, even though they may not be my client, when a client has a horror story to tell, I'm not entertained, I'm concerned. It makes me pretty upset to see bottom of the barrel hosts giving the entire industry a bad repuatation.

In the hosting industry, I'd say 2 ot of every 3reviews on any company are bad. Why? A good review just states that the company did what they promised they'd do in the beginning. A bad review is the oppisite and usually, its the extreme oppisite.

Yes it is entertaining to watch quite a bit of the drama that goes on here at WHT. I do not wish bad events to happen to anybody, but some of the arguments that take place against many hosts are simply laughable.

What makes a host "bottom barrel"? I can tell you it's not price or features. I would venture to say that a "bottom barrel" host is defined by their management methods more than anything else. Underfunding could be another issue.

If you are getting 2 out of 3 reviews bad about your company, I would be quite worried. A bad review will do much more harm than a good review will help your company (I am not trying to pick at you personally, but you brought up the statistic).

On a final note, how many of those horror stories end up in the hands of the client when it comes time for responsibility? I have hardly ever seen a "lower" end host that offers a guaranteed backup solution for their clients, but when the data is lost the clients blame the host. It generally states right in the TOS that the host is not responsible for any data lost for any reason. As I said before hosting is a learning experience no matter where you are in the industry or how long you've been there. As a client or a businessperson you will always be learning even if you don't want to.

Welcome to the WHT lifecycle... funny thing is, the exact same users who post that requirement, find a host who will offer it to them, smother them with praise for the first 30-60 days, that host grows beyound what their servers can handle, something bad happens, same user comes on WHT and complains - then buys the exact same hosting package from the next provider willing to come along and try to play in that space

Entertained? As a host, even though they may not be my client, when a client has a horror story to tell, I'm not entertained, I'm concerned. It makes me pretty upset to see bottom of the barrel hosts giving the entire industry a bad repuatation.

I dont think you should look at it this way. These hosts are giving no one but themselves a bad reputation. The ones which make me laugh are the clients that keep looking for the exact same thing even after they just had a horrible experience (whats that old saying? - "the definition of insanity is repeatedly doing the same thing and expecting a different result" - or something like that)

In the hosting industry, I'd say 2 ot of every 3reviews on any company are bad. Why? A good review just states that the company did what they promised they'd do in the beginning. A bad review is the oppisite and usually, its the extreme oppisite.

Keep in mind that happy customers rarely take the time to post reviews and such - but, if they are upset, and they need to vent, they sure as heck will take the time to make a post.

Best advise I can give you - and the only thing that will allow you to maintain your sanity in this business - dont target the low end, dont budge on your prices, provide an excellent service and take comfort in the fact that every time one of these poorly run companies fall, you are assured to have some customers who are tired of problems and are willing to pay more for reliable, professional services - and some of them will find their way to you...

Just my take on it....

Best advise I can give you - and the only thing that will allow you to maintain your sanity in this business - dont target the low end, dont budge on your prices, provide an excellent service and take comfort in the fact that every time one of these poorly run companies fall, you are assured to have some customers who are tired of problems and are willing to pay more for reliable, professional services - and some of them will find their way to you...

Just my take on it....

Exactly what we have been doing and plan on doing in the future. Most of our customers are refugees, and unhappy with thier past service. You'd be amazed if you had heard some of the horror stories that clients have discussed with me on the phone.

Hosting in general has been given a bad name by the kiddie hosts... or bottom of the barrel, whatever you wish to call them. Hosts that do not provide next to any support, overselling services to a non-plausible extent, and hosts that have next to no knowledge in server administration. That's what I meant when I used the terms above.

My concerns are not meant to address RackFleet's business model but the consumers in our industries sector.

When they get hosting, they must take a common sense approach to it and when you are selling a product that you can not touch, taste or physically possess, some consumers do not tend to use common sense.

Again, the 2 out of 3 reviews comment I posted above was not in relation to RackFleet, but the industry as a whole.

As Cartika stated above, consumers will be more willing to speak of the bad experiences opposed to the good ones. That's just the way the industry works.

:lovewht:

Because the internet is developing so fast there is now so many web hosting companies. All these new little guys are having to much trouble making it because they have to lower there prices so much to compete. Then in 3 months down the road they give up becuase there not making any money so theres where all the horror stories start from.

I see your point 101, however, the first thing on a consumers list should be reliability, not price.

As a company, if you are continuing to lower your price to attract customers when you know what your overhead is going to be from day one, you are setting yourself up for a disater.

That's true but it's human nature to want to buy the cheapest possibility. Many people know that it is probable not the best idea to go with the cheapest company but they do it anyway.

On the companies side. Most of the people starting these companies don't really know anything about web hosting so they don't know there going to run into problems in a couple of months.

Whatever though this problem will never be resolved. It's just a learning process that everybody will go through that makes this wrong decision.

Not picking on anyone, but before pointing any fingers at the industry and complaining about the decline of it we should all look in the mirror.

Offering cheap plans that have unlimited overselling? Jumping on the bandwagon of offering complete end user support for your resellers? Allowing resellers to resell reseller plans?

We can post and complain about the failings of the reseller industry, but then to turn around and allow resellers to offer unlimited over sold plans themselves, to give them end user support so they do not have to take any responsibility for their clients or invest anything more than a few bucks a month into their business is not helping the hosting industry. It only promotes host that cannot sustain a real business model and close up leaving the end users with out.

I am as sick of the kiddie host or what ever you want to call them as anyone, at the same time I think every host needs to look at their own contribution to the problem.

It is a fact that consumers are always going to demand more and more and their will be someone that will meet that demand. But to complain about the slippery slope of the industry we are in and then contribute to it on the other end is kind of funny.

First it was cheap dedicated then cheap reseller plans then cheap hosting plans and the vicious cycle repeats.

Offering cheap plans that have unlimited overselling? Jumping on the bandwagon of offering complete end user support for your resellers? Allowing resellers to resell reseller plans?

We can post and complain about the failings of the reseller industry, but then to turn around and allow resellers to offer unlimited over sold plans themselves, to give them end user support so they do not have to take any responsibility for their clients or invest anything more than a few bucks a month into their business is not helping the hosting industry. It only promotes host that cannot sustain a real business model and close up leaving the end users with out.

Well said Techark and simply wonderful to hear. The amount of time I spend defending items like account limitations, domain limitations, limitations on email accounts, mysql/mssql/pgsql DB quotas, underselling vs overselling, why end user support is expensive, etc, etc, etc is simply outrageous..

I know most people dont want to hear it and/or dont care - but, its nice to see that these concepts arent lost on everyone....

Because there are no hard rules on this business, and you'll hear 10 people complaining about how bad Site5 is it (to give an example of a recent thread at WHT) while they have thousand of happy customers but they are quiet. For hard that this may be for some host, overselling does work for many companies, and they are doing great.

Hi

if you need a host with 24x7 support you prob wont find a reseller host with the same prices as a Mcdonalds value meal!

These $1 hosts wont last! and as you say there just kids looking to make a few dollars.

First it was cheap dedicated then cheap reseller plans then cheap hosting plans and the vicious cycle repeats.It is still up to the user to choose, and the sad fact is some people can't make a choice. They only afford cheap hosting, or not hosting at all. When faced with that decision, they hop from cheap host to another cheap host, always hoping they'll find the consumers Holy Grail.

The sad part is that the marketing is pretty unform. Everyone claims great uptime, great this and that. The user expects it and complains when all of that isn't really there.

<sarcasm>
- Hey, the 5 cents burgers that these guys are selling are no good.
- Really? :eek:
</sarcasm>

These $1 hosts wont last! and as you say there just kids looking to make a few dollars.I wonder what dollar will think about that. :)

This is a very interesting topic but not every "Kiddie Host" is bad. By definition DevotedHost is probably considered one like people wonder oh wow how can they offer 15GB space 150GB bandwidth for $18.95 a month!

The simple answer is some of the big offerings by new hosts are simply to get known. You offer something cheaper than everyone else or offer more features people will use you even if you're new because for hosting the most part they are shopping for the cheap. Of course most doing this never get to the point where they are big enough to start pricing things higher but that's simply poor planning on their part and server management. But this is the risk they all take since they do not have the up front capital to be spending the kind of money needed to get decent advertising.


With this method it can be pretty effective you start offering $10 accounts and offer it very competively at the start your profit margin may look bad but you need to get the word out. Suddenly you now have enough customers that you are now using a few servers and you're now seeing the word of mouth of your customers help you get more customers and they aren't there because of the price but simply because someone recommended you. Now you can suddenly offer the same accounts at double or tripple the price and not see a drop in the amount of customers you have. Now suddenly thanks to the great server management to keep things on track with the overselling and under pricing compared to others you can now see good profits thanks to all the optimizations you made. You went the extra yard to keep your servers in tip top shape and to fit as many accounts as possible.


Edit: I removed some things I decided to no longer say for anyone curious

For hard that this may be for some host, overselling does work for many companies, and they are doing great.

Sure it works for some hosts, doesnt mean that there isnt a market for doing things a different way. And irregardless of whether it works or not - your probability of problems is dramatically decreased in an undersold environment (or at least an environment thats "reasonably" oversold.

They only afford cheap hosting, or not hosting at all. When faced with that decision, they hop from cheap host to another cheap host, always hoping they'll find the consumers Holy Grail.

Obviously this is reality sometimes - however, just as often as not, people are purchasing the most they possibly can for as little as possible (which is human nature). I have seen resellers, with 100's of domains, making 1000's of dollars per month insisting they shouldn't pay more then $10/month for unlimited everything. Funny thing is, when I ask them why they are looking for new hosting, their response is always the same - my current service is unreliable - Im never quite sure what to respond, so I usually wish them luck and let them know that if they ever want to spend a little more, their problems will go away...

edit Oh oops, we're talking about reseller hosts. :blush: No excuse for going budget-budget and not understanding the whole hosting deal then. /edit

Speaking from a customer's point of view, sometimes it's only understandable that people new to the hosting industry would do this. The first thing such person is going to look is definitely the price, and when the host fails, they'd just think "Pfft, they're just not up to it", and not "Hmm, maybe a price like that is too good to be true."

A real conversation between a friend and me.

Friend: What do you think about this host? Good deal?
Me: I don't think you should go for them. They couldn't possibly offer 5gb space / 100gb bandwidth for $5 without major overselling. Besides, price isn't everything. You also have to consider...
Friend: Oooh look! An even cheaper host who offer more for less!
Me: :bkick:

... sans the kicking. And this has sadly happened more than once.

Mind you, though, I'm one of those budget people (hello, university); but I know about what to expect from the price I pay and I don't complain. :)

I'm not going to apologise for my English, because it isn't my first language. ;) :hkflag:

This is a very interesting topic but not every "Kiddie Host" is bad. By definition DevotedHost is probably considered one like people wonder oh wow how can they offer 15GB space 150GB bandwidth for $18.95 a month!

The simple answer is some of the big offerings by new hosts are simply to get known. You offer something cheaper than everyone else or offer more features people will use you even if you're new because for hosting the most part they are shopping for the cheap. Of course most doing this never get to the point where they are big enough to start pricing things higher but that's simply poor planning on their part and server management. But this is the risk they all take since they do not have the up front capital to be spending the kind of money needed to get decent advertising.


With this method it can be pretty effective you start offering $10 accounts and offer it very competively at the start your profit margin may look bad but you need to get the word out. Suddenly you now have enough customers that you are now using a few servers and you're now seeing the word of mouth of your customers help you get more customers and they aren't there because of the price but simply because someone recommended you. Now you can suddenly offer the same accounts at double or tripple the price and not see a drop in the amount of customers you have. Now suddenly thanks to the great server management to keep things on track with the overselling and under pricing compared to others you can now see good profits thanks to all the optimizations you made. You went the extra yard to keep your servers in tip top shape and to fit as many accounts as possible.


Edit: I removed some things I decided to no longer say for anyone curious


Well I read your post before you edited, all I can say is I wish you the best with that plan.

But as one that has been around this business since 1999 and been here on WHT for a while I have seen all kinds of business plans like you describe come and go and most host that have tried have failed.

You cited before the edit, EV1 as an example of your plan, funny last year at hostingcon Robert Marsh the founder of EV1 during his speech made the statement that one regret he had was selling ultra cheap servers and he wishes he had never tried that business model.

But hey if it works for you then good on ya.

I'm not going to apologise for my English, because it isn't my first language.

As you shouldnt, your English is fine :)

Speaking from a customer's point of view, sometimes it's only understandable that people new to the hosting industry would do this. The first thing such person is going to look is definitely the price, and when the host fails, they'd just think "Pfft, they're just not up to it", and not "Hmm, maybe a price like that is too good to be true."

Understood - and the responsibility lies in 2 places - 1) (as techark has pointed out) - with the providers to offer a business model and a service that is sustainable and 2) with the consumer to realize that they are purchasing a service - and services are not a commodity item - generally speaking, you will get what you pay for...

When I see a customer come on these forums, and say the super-cheap host they were with that promised the world for 99cents has gone out of business, I can't help but smile.

I'm simply hoping the industry will change as more and more people become educated about web hosting.

Here is my 2 cents (value for your dollar....)

1) Fool me once ... shame on you (small amount of people who get screwed and then pony up with real money for real expectations of quality and service)

2) Fool me twice...Shame on me (A rather large amount of customer ostriches that keep there head in the sand and believe that the failure of #1 was unique and had nothing to do with attracting the ultimate group of groundfeeders who have no talent or judgment at all other than the ability to publicly blame EVERYONE else for their stupidity). They usually graduate to #3 with ease.

3) Fool me three times...I am brick stupid and should not be allowed near a keyboard other than for "quite time" in my pre-school...

and I hate to say it, but most of the group falls in group 3.

It is easy to blame the kiddie hosts and thieves that seen to appear and disappear on a monthly basis....But that is like blaming the drug dealer for all his cocaine addicted customers....he may have got them hooked and he many supply the high...But damn straight he did not force them to part with their dollars and make a horrifically bad choice over and over again..

There would not be an issue if there was not a market.....So while I feel truly sorry for group 1 since most are just uneducated regarding our industry and made a mistake (Beachcomber started with a server at CIHost <shiver>), I have ZERO sympathy for group 2... They are cheap risk takers and are getting mostly what they deserve.

Group 3...all I want is their silence...You are a sucker, you will fill in your underwear size on a paypal phish site with missing icons and a header that says http://ripping you off BIG time.com. You have the intellect of bumble bee and the common sense of a snail darter. When they were handing out brains you were doing shots of tequila and screaming TOGA. It appears you only do three things well are....

1) Whine "I am a victim"
2) Blame everyone else for your incredible stupidity and lack of even the basis of judgment
3) Breed...you must breed like jackrabbits cause there are more and more of you every day

Lets not just blame the industry as corrupt, lets also have at it with the people that encouraged its corruption.

Of course, this is just my opinion...I could be wrong

Without such events how ever would we stay entertained here at WHT?

Thats a million dollor comment... and I completely agree with that....

Let the show go on:popcorn:

Here is my 2 cents (value for your dollar....)

1) Fool me once ... shame on you (small amount of people who get screwed and then pony up with real money for real expectations of quality and service)

2) Fool me twice...Shame on me (A rather large amount of customer ostriches that keep there head in the sand and believe that the failure of #1 was unique and had nothing to do with attracting the ultimate group of groundfeeders who have no talent or judgment at all other than the ability to publicly blame EVERYONE else for their stupidity). They usually graduate to #3 with ease.

3) Fool me three times...I am brick stupid and should not be allowed near a keyboard other than for "quite time" in my pre-school...

and I hate to say it, but most of the group falls in group 3.

It is easy to blame the kiddie hosts and thieves that seen to appear and disappear on a monthly basis....But that is like blaming the drug dealer for all his cocaine addicted customers....he may have got them hooked and he many supply the high...But damn straight he did not force them to part with their dollars and make a horrifically bad choice over and over again..

There would not be an issue if there was not a market.....So while I feel truly sorry for group 1 since most are just uneducated regarding our industry and made a mistake (Beachcomber started with a server at CIHost <shiver>), I have ZERO sympathy for group 2... They are cheap risk takers and are getting mostly what they deserve.

Group 3...all I want is their silence...You are a sucker, you will fill in your underwear size on a paypal phish site with missing icons and a header that says http://ripping you off BIG time.com. You have the intellect of bumble bee and the common sense of a snail darter. When they were handing out brains you were doing shots of tequila and screaming TOGA. It appears you only do three things well are....

1) Whine "I am a victim"
2) Blame everyone else for your incredible stupidity and lack of even the basis of judgment
3) Breed...you must breed like jackrabbits cause there are more and more of you every day

Lets not just blame the industry as corrupt, lets also have at it with the people that encouraged its corruption.

Of course, this is just my opinion...I could be wrong

:roll2: reminds me of the local Daiwoo car dealership recently advertising buy one get one free (seriously a free new car) really makes you wonder how many people bought into it. Yet, I've still only seen a handful on the road, most had the plastic holding the car together broken off in multiple pieces around the entire thing, but I'm sure enough went for it, hey it was free!

agree I had my first ever cpanel reseller for $5.95 company just dissapeared after about a month