Don't know but lately I see that many people try to break the market....and make the hosting industry go to hell. I see crazy prices...Yes the guys can make money or at least get the server's expences...but why they don't consider the effect of their actions on the market and the hosting business!!! I also see no respect for the resellers...resellers are a huge & important part of the hosting industry...and make part of the whole system. Why I say this? We have arrived at a point that bying a normal hosting plan or a reseller plan costs almost the same. So people that have nothing to do with reselling, buy instead of a normal plan, a reseller's plan...as it has more features...and then comes the bad...they start to resell and suddenly we discover a world of thousands of resellers that offer bad services and create the : "every host is bad", "you can't trust a host" ideas to the people. I don't know..it's good to have low prices...but this way we make accessable to everyone the key to the hosting world, with terrible effects! I think that prices should stay at a level that a normal user cannot buy a reseller's plan...this idea might be unpopular but I think that can make serious resellers have betters times and the hosts that own the servers get only good clients(they can still make money, they don't have to be greed) . Anyway , hoping that I said my thoughts in an understandable way, I'd like to hear your opinions about this. I'm curious what the guys of the big firms think about it. Thank you.

Originally posted by MikeMc
I also see no respect for the resellers...resellers are a huge part of the hosting industry...and make part of the whole system.



Originally posted by MikeMc

we discover a world of thousands of resellers that offer bad services and create the : "every host is bad", "you can't trust a host" ideas to the people.


Wow.....thanks. Going from talking about respecting resellers to fitting them/us into a negative stereotype.

There is reseller & reseller. When I'm saying that I see no respect for resellers, I mean that I see no respect to the people who resell and make it well and in professional way. When I'm talking about thousands of resellers, I mean all those that do it because they like the idea, buy a reseller's plan and start to torture some people called "customers". That's it my friend. Clear enough?

note : I'm a reseller too, so...

Resellers build and grow the industry. Overnight companies offering cheap reseller plans (ie. 20GB space and 100GB bandwidth for $50, etc.), without calculating expenses, support staff and proper business plan destroy it.

Originally posted by MikeMc
Don't know but lately I see that many people try to break the market....and make the hosting industry go to hell. I see crazy prices...Yes the guys can make money or at least get the server's expences...but why they don't consider the effect of their actions on the market and the hosting business!!!
Generally speaking competition is always healthy, I like the world that way. I appreciate EasyJet for cheapo flights around Europe. And I appreciate the (potential) possibility to get multiple domain hosting and pay for what I actually use (disk space, system load, network traffic) instead of being forced to buy oversized individual accounts for my sites. Multiple domain hosting includes per se thee possibility to resell, if the host agrees with this. And I don´t see why he shouldn´t. He´ll always be paied for the ressources that are actually used (disk space, system load, network traffic...).
I also see no respect for the resellers...resellers are a huge & important part of the hosting industry...and make part of the whole system. Why I say this? We have arrived at a point that bying a normal hosting plan or a reseller plan costs almost the same.Which I find normal, cause you charge for the ressources you make available (disk space, system load, network traffic...)
So people that have nothing to do with reselling, buy instead of a normal plan, a reseller's plan...as it has more features...and then comes the bad...they start to resell
I think this is your main concern,
You don´t like competition from hobbyists,
Cause hobbyists work for free, basically,
For the same reason Microsoft doesn´t like OSS software,
Well, yeah, it means there´s not much of a business to be made with ordinary hosting anymore...
So what?
Professional hosters simply have to adapt to the market,
Either offer services, mainly, and hosting as an accessory,
Or offer those multidomain hosting accounts for resellers, where quality resellers are willing to pay for quality reseller accounts...
But even quality reseller accounts will become cheaper,
This is the result of technological progress,
Small drug stores die because huge supermarkets offer the same quality products at a fraction of the cost. I´m happy with that ;)
Customers shall profit from technological profit, and not (not only) the wallet of the commercials...
and suddenly we discover a world of thousands of resellers that offer bad services and create the : "every host is bad", "you can't trust a host" ideas to the people.
Well, for sure there´s a lot of "low quality" offers now,
It´s not always the reseller who screws up, just as often it´s the backend provider I think.
But hey, customers can choose: some relie on quality and will pay for it, others don´t care about quality (personal sites, kids,...) and prefer to go with a hobbyist, knowing that they take a certain gamble.
Sure, not all customers know to tell a pro from a hobbyist, but those who don´t will learn it the hard way and be more careful next time: the internet is a social phenomenon, scam offers are part of it and people learn pretty quickly to deal with it, I wouldn´t worry too much about that.
I don't know..it's good to have low prices...
I´m glad you agree :)
but this way we make accessable to everyone the key to the hosting world, with terrible effects! I think that prices should stay at a level that a normal user cannot buy a reseller's plan...
I believe that you think so :D
this idea might be unpopular but I think that can make serious resellers have betters times and the hosts that own the servers get only good clients(they can still make money, they don't have to be greed)
Do you really think the hobby resellers are less good clients than the so called "serious resellers"? Granted some of them screw up mainly by selling more than what they have and eventually getting their account suspended for one or another reason, but I believe that´s a minority and a well organized host can deal with it easily. Most of the hobby resellers are good clients for the host, I believe. They are only a problem for the "serious reseller" because they basically do the same job (and some of them with the same quality!!!) without charging money for it.
Anyway , hoping that I said my thoughts in an understandable way, I'd like to hear your opinions about this. I'm curious what the guys of the big firms think about it. Thank you.
Well, I´m not a guy of a big firm, nor am I a reseller and my few personal pages, I have them hosted by 0catch.com (http://www.0catch.com) because it´s free :) Granted their pushing pop-up ads on my site and the lack of reasonable stats is unfortunate, so I might one day get myself a paied-for hosting and, who knows, maybe I´ll become a cheapo reseller :D , but if so that´ll be a hobby activity...

The necessary conclusion concerns the "serious reseller". Sure resellers are important for the host, I don´t see any other way allowing to reach a similar number of end users. But hey, you seem to seriously overestimate the value of the work a reseller can do. He doesn´t have control of the system and he doesn´t want to have it, that´s why he´s a reseller. All he does is find customers (sales clerk), bill them, and maybe help them with their little problems to get their page password protected or some SQL or whatever. Who qualifies for a "serious reseller"? The one who has reasonable tech skills so he can be helpful. But gone are the days where you could impress someone with some HTML skills and even with some basic SQL and other knowledge. Here in Europe, some 30 or 40 years ago, a sales clerk got a top position merely because he knew english language. Gone are those days too.

Today one has to do more than know some english in order to expect a reasonable salary. And one has to do more than resell hosting accounts. The really serious reseller doesn´t do this as a main activity, hosting is just one element in a range of services he provides, usually I guess it´s a combination of web development, webmaster and hosting. For those other resellers who consider themselves "serious" but don´t do anything else, it´s about time they wake up and notice that they don´t do much more than selling ice-cream. The bad thing (for them) is that there are hobbyists who resell hosting for the fun of it, while there isn´t anyone selling ice-cream just for fun. So the latter gets more money for his job ;)

- Of course competition is healthy, but hey..hear we are not talking about 1st class hosts. 1st class hosts never had or will have such low prices...so we are talking about competition only between low and medium-end hosts. Which doesn't make a global competition...but let's forget this "detail".

- Your example of EasyJet doesn't really fit. EasyJet tells you clearly what you get less...cheap hosts doesn't always do..or they sell cheap even if they offer the same with more expensive hosts...hoping that clients will not use everything they bought.

- You find normal that a normal hosting plan costs in some cases the same with a reseller's plan? Well then someone is lying...or the host that sell the reseller plan just sell much cheaper (overcrowded servers, overselling) or the host that sells the normal plan is trying to put his hand deep in your pocket. Isn't that correct?

- No that's not my main concern...I don't have problems with competition and I have nothing against people who resell for hobby. I have problems with those who resell but don't respect the customers and make people think bad of the hosts...the same is valid for the hosts(machine owners) that don't respect the customers.
Microsoft and OSS example has nothing to do with our argument as I'm talking only about paid hosts. Microsoft gets paid and all the resellers & hosts do too. OSS is free. If some resellers give accounts out for free, good for them, but they won't live for much.

- I think that there is great work to be done with ordinary hosting. Just think that huge part of the world and even Europe haven't get really in to the internet thing. And we are talking about millions of people...of course not all of them will need a host...but maybe many. Yes I agree that hosts and resellers that take it seriously should offer more services and adapt to new situations.

- You're right ...often the main host creates the chaos, not the resellers. But I think it's just because he is the "root" and he decides where to connect his server. If all the resellers had "root" access and had to make decisions about lines, data cecnters, servers hardware, OS...then god save us.

- I don't think that technology's evolution is the main cause of the crazy prices. People drop their prices in a month and believe me technology that all of us use for hosting doesn't change every month. It's just that some people think that selling with low prices will bring to them many customers..so : many customers X low price = some good money. But what about having a really good support? What about email responces in some hours max and not in days?

- Hobby resellers are as good customers as serious resellers, but often they found this hobby just because of the low prices and not because they had a passion about it. I paint as a hobby but I do because I like it and I will do it even if the prices of colors go high. It's not that I've started painting because a shop near me made an offer for a painters kit!

In general : - Without resellers the big guys would have some hard days, specially in some past periods. - The number 1 factor is the quality and support. Not the price. - Some resellers (not me) but I know many off them could run a real hosting company very well...I mean they have the knowledge...but often don't have the money for servers...so take the first step...reselling, till they have the money. And being a reseller needs nore than have an idea about Plesk and Cpanel, it's not just selling you know! As customers will ask everytyhing , technical and not.

Without getting too far into this, I just wanted to say that I think astra4 has some good points. We live in a free market economy - that means that any joe-schmoe has the right (and some would say obligation) to chase their dreams. If that means the hosting industry gets saturated with hobbyists who buy reseller accounts and try to set up shop, so be it. Sure some of them aren't very good, but many of them are. In fact, many of the bigger hosts on here probably started out as resellers and grew from there. I think you're forgetting one major part of this whole equation: in a free-market economy, the consumer has a responsibility and obligation to research and chose the best value (including support) vs. money combination. There are even some political philosophers that say if the consumer doesn't do this the free market system will fail (can't think of any references off hand, but if you really want them let me know). On average consumers do this and the bad hosts dissappear while the good ones remain at the lowest price level. This has a Darwinian effect where you're left with many good hosts at the lowest pricing tier but very few bad ones. This is good for everyone!

Dave

Yes, you're right about the free market, but I think that you've missed a point. That consumers that buy hosting services don't have a guarantee, like when they buy other products or services. I mean that your point would be correct if the customer that buys a hosting service has an official guarantee! All hosts are hiding behind their TOS...I think you have already read many TOS. We all know stories about hosts that went down and customers never heard again from them, we know about hosts that start to offer bad services and customers can't do anything about it...only change host. It's the idea of no contracts and the month to month agreement. Not absolutely correct from my point of view.

And there is no absolute interpretation of the "free market". Everyone has his opinion(or political view)...but that's another argument...

In my view, a contract is part of the value vs price equation - some hosts do offer contracts and money-back garuntees. My guess would be that because these items increase the value portion of the equation, people will be more likely to pick hosts which have them and the others will still fall out. In the end, any host that does not offer competitive value (including garuntees) vs price will not last long. A well-educated consumer will always pick the host with a garuntee vs the host without one given all else is the same.

Dave
(Enjoys playing Devil's Advocate)

A contract is the guard of guarancies and guard of the equation : value vs price. A guarantee isn't a value, should be demanded by law, like with all other products...but then of course you'll tell me that this way no reseller or small host would exist...maybe that's true...

And even if we consider guarantee as a value,then we can say that the hosting industry has absolutely failed to offer this value.

Money back guarantee is a different thing from the guarantee I'm talking above.

On the issue of legalities, it might be of interest to actually do a bit of research on contracts and jurisdictional issues relating to what makes a binding contract and where and what and how in their application/definition.

As for the hosting market going to hell, somehow I doubt that is really the case as such even though I do agree on the relational attributes of dollar hosts and swarms of resellers flooding the market versus customer protectionism being an issue.

Will you see any ethical or responsible aspects become tangible in relation to offering reseller accounts by hosts? No, you wont due to the nature of the business where hosts can make money easily through the trends that have manifested themself since reselling becoming a primary service offering as it is now.

Look at the latest trend being low priced servers, hence making it easier to even bypass the reseller stage, add a few cups of remote support, and have an instant host. That may be cynical yet it's a reality which is another obstacle for the "consumer" to wade through in the search for hosting. There are exceptions to those which have the adequate resources to supply a full service and are making a go of it with a vision of seeking more than lolly money and a plan that counts past the number two in months.

On the opposite side of that equation, the host hopper consumer has evolved where they see something greater in value theoretically therefore jump and jump again, eventually finding that everything they read is not what it seems.

This industry segment is a victim of its own desires which does also fall victim to the creation of its own making being the hosting citizen aka consumer that now wants not just the big mac but the store as well with unlimited pickles for 4.99 p/mth. Eventually, they get sick of the unlimited and plastic pickles then decide to seek a real hosting package, realistically priced and packed full of reliability.

Originally posted by Nishtec
Eventually, they get sick of the unlimited and plastic pickles then decide to seek a real hosting package, realistically priced and packed full of reliability.

There´s at first sight no reason why an unlimited domains package should not be reliable, as long as it´s limited in terms of actual ressources made available by the host (disk space, system load, network traffic...). And nobody´s gona get sick of it, because the spare domains can easily be resold or given away :D.

Originally posted by Kiwi
Resellers build and grow the industry. Overnight companies offering cheap reseller plans [...] destroy it.
They don't actually destroy the industry,
they just give it a bad general reputation,
which allows you to to distinguish yourself by being better :)
so the bad hosts help grow the business of the good ones,
You should be greatful :D

Originally posted by astra4

They don't actually destroy the industry,
they just give it a bad general reputation,
which allows you to to distinguish yourself by being better :)
so the bad hosts help grow the business of the good ones,
You should be greatful :D


I think you're wrong. Yes your argument is valid, but you're missing a whole process : the time and money spent by the customer till they find the right host. I know of people that have changed 6 and more times host in a year till they find a host to remain.! And all the money lost with the previous hosts?(becuase sometimes the 7,14,30 days money back guarantee aren't really enough and many hosts suddenly turn bad without any previous signs). And all the time and work lost?

So the process you're talking about , yes takes place, but this way customers are the only to have lost. And yes at the end they find a good host and know that all the previous were bad. But that is always a personal experience! So almost every person has to pass this painful process.

This thread is about the "breaking the market" topic and not about "missing protection of consumer rights".

I agree with your finding that the market isn't really consumer friendly. On the other hand it's free (non regulated), which is nice. To make it more consumer friendly, one'd need to regulate it more. For example allow ecommerce activity to registerd persons only (see France for example). You'd win security in commerce, but loose freedom to do commerce.

I like freedom alot, basically...

And I dislike regulation :D

By the way, regulation is the only instrument that would theoretically allow for improved consumer protection, a concerted private initiative of hosting companies (like raising the requirements to become a reseller, as you suggest it) is impossible in this competitive environment where no single provider of virtual hosting has even a market share of just 1%.

Luckily :)

So I guess you'll need to take this thread to the legislator :cool:

You're absolutely right, although I disagree with the total freedom. So you agree we need some type of regulation but not that hard to make us all, specially resellers not to make business! I agree! And here we meet! Lets give us, or the machine owners hosts, a regulation! Lets leave the prices to a descent level, high enough so not every user can become a reseller! That's a regulation, good enough, to keep many out of the hosting world!
This way people who just want to play with reselling or hosting will think twice to spend the money(just because of the price). And when I'm talking about descent prices I don't mean huge amounts of money! For example the 35$/month for a reseller plan is a descent price, that a person that just wants to play the reseller and not do it seriously, won't buy! But a person that has a bigger interest or passion to the hosting world will find the money and will buy the package! But maybe I'm totally wrong...uh! anyway! I can't change the world! I can't even change myself! So what's the point? I opened this thread just to make us reflect a bit. I don't expect anything more!

And astra4, just a last thing! I don't accept the word "finding". It's not a finding of mine that the market isn't customer friendly! Maybe you can't see the reality! I'm a reseller too, and I wouldn't have any reason to be against myself! The hosting market isn't customer friendly.
All of us resellers and small-medium hosts are customers of others in this business too and we know how the things work!

With "regulation" I was referring to governmental (legal) regulation only.

With "your finding" I simply wanted to refer to the fact which was ascertaind by you before.

English is a dangerous language, sometimes I believe to write something but the reader understands something else...

hey, I found a new host for myself: Hostonfly.net (http://www.hostonfly.net),
they´re billing for what is actually used only,
I love this aproach :)

Not gonna happen!

Sometimes we get confused over what the market really is.There are many independent markets of which only a small part of one of those markets is represented here on WHT. Just divide the total into four markets for instance (and it could easily be divided into hundreds).

1-The customer looking for nothing but freebies and something for nothing. Scrounching around IRC and other sites. Not researching quality at all.

2-WHT visitor. Actually many subsets of this. But generally trying to develop knowledge and often looking for bargains but trying to research.

3-Customer looking for quality at reasonable prices. Often making decisions based on referrals, friends, recommendations, etc.

4-Customers influenced by size and advertising and completely oblivious to price.

My personal feeling is that #3 is the group to target for the most success in the long run and provides the most potential for profitability. The WHT community when compared to the internet as a whole is really quite small and, although we see some ridiculous offerings here, in reality, nothing done here is going to turn the market nor break it. #1, the bottom suckers, will always exist in any industry and is best ignored. #4, I thank God for every day. Reputable hosts providing value and service can always beat #4 providers. But, #4 hosts are the most visible and give us a target against which to compete.

Guess what I am saying is we come here, see the deals, realize you can't make money at those prices and get discouraged. Don't fall into that trap. A few examples below:

ValueWeb spends more on direct mail advertising than anyone I know. Yet, their cheapest plan is $29 setup, $19.95/month. And they have far more customers than most WHT hosts.

Earthlink cheapest plan except specials is $25 setup, $19.95/month.

Verio cheapest plan is $50 setup, $24.95/month.

XO cheapest plan is $50 setup, $19.95/month

Even the infamous ****** is $50 Startup, $20/month.

So, don't fall victim to the illusion that the only market is the one of customers wanting to pay nothing and host willing to sell for nearly nothing.

Structure your business in a manner to meet your goals and objectives. I know from experience that I have potential customers choose someone else every day because they can find a cheaper plan that I refuse to provide. But whether your cheapest plan is $3.95, $5.95, $7.95, or even $9.95, that isn't where you are going to ultimately build your business. For every customer who goes elsewhere for the super-discount no support plan, I know also I pick up a solid, professional, long term customer who is thrilled to replace his $70/month plan with lousy service with my $49.95/month plan and solid support.

Originally posted by Incognito


3-Customer looking for quality at reasonable prices. Often making decisions based on referrals, friends, recommendations, etc.



Amen to those client's, they are valued more than anything else

Mike

Verio had an Ad in either e-week or Fast Co. this week
Dedicatated Server No set Up Free $199.00 per month.

Washington Post Article last week or two about all the empty
data center buildings in Northern Va. selling for 5cents on tne dollar. for use as other purposes.

Its a little scary

JFWS