I was just about to post this in response to someone's design template, but I figured I didn't want to offend them and I was curious if I'm alone in my opinion here? Mind you, I'm not looking for one, but I do like to see what graphics people do and enjoy viewing some nice graphical work sometimes. Anyway, people asking $100 - $200 or up to a few grand, just doesn't seem worth it that often for most designs -- this is what I was going to post and it pretty much sums it up -- because basically, I saw a scan of an image or that they downloaded and that was about all there was to this template and they wanted $200!?:

"Please don't take this the wrong way, but... I don't understand why people scan or download an image of people looking at computers (and up at you) and throw in some fonts and create an image out of that and ask any money at all!? You seem to have talent and I'm sure you can do a lot, as with a lot of people I see post templates and such. However, thus far, all the templates I've seen lately (I'm just the curious type, is all), a lot of them are very simple with just an image included, that they didn't even take (you didn't take the picture and scan it or create it, but actually downloaded the image from some site (even free for-use sites) or scanned out out of a computer magazine like PCWorld). Scanning an image or downloading an image from aweb site and throwing fonts on it (i.e., slecting the font you want to use and typing out words and filling them in with color), is not much of a design. I'm sure if you put in some effort, you'll have a nice, original template that involved some nice work to sell."

I just don't get it. Maybe I should have stayed with web and graphic design years ago, if it's that easy to create templates to sell.

I would have to dissagree with you. Not all people do web design for just a bit of extra income...some people use this money to put food on the table and clothes on there back. Also, i think I have a pretty good idea what template you are talking about, it really isn't that bad. Obviously you don't know how much work goes into creating a design. I mean c'mon, try and go to a professional design firm and ask for a design like that and see what kind of a quote you get. I can assure you it will cost alot more than $200.

All in all, I just think some people are spoiled around here when web designers looking for a bit of extra cash come on here and sell templates for like $50. Then someone new comes along and says he/she wants $200 for a template people think there nuts.

Originally posted by fractiousws
I would have to dissagree with you. Not all people do web design for just a bit of extra income...some people use this money to put food on the table and clothes on there back.


That's irrelevant. We're talking about content worth in templates, not buying from someone out of charity so they can put food on the table.


Also, i think I have a pretty good idea what template you are talking about, it really isn't that bad.


No, the image that they slapped on wasn't that bad -- of course, none of that was their work. However, that's pretty much all there was to it. I don't know that we're talking about the same template.


Obviously you don't know how much work goes into creating a design.


Obviously, because I don't agree with you, doesn't make that statement true. I've done web design and graphics using tools like Photoshop since 1995. I know exactly how much work does _not_ go into pasting an image in a window and adding text around it. Don't misunderstand me, but don't insult me either. I am not saying that everything has to be original and the use of any scanned image or any pre-existing image is at all a bad thing, but we're not talking about that, we're talking about only (or pretty much only) that.


I mean c'mon, try and go to a professional design firm and ask for a design like that and see what kind of a quote you get.


Why would anyone need any professional design firm to paste in an image for them?


I can assure you it will cost alot more than $200.


That is not relevant of what other people would charge. This is about what people _are_ charging for what we _are_ seeing. We can debate forever about how someone that wants $500 per hour, is going to charge at least $500 an hour, but that has no relevance. Charging $200 for simply slapping a pre-existing image on a splash screen and not much more, is not (to me) worth anywhere near that -- and I think it's ridiculous people would expect to get that much for it. You don't have to agree with me.


All in all, I just think some people are spoiled around here when web designers looking for a bit of extra cash come on here and sell templates for like $50. Then someone new comes along and says he/she wants $200 for a template people think there nuts.

This statement doesn't apply to me or my post. I didn't say that they were asking too much, or that a good template isn't worth $200 (or far more, possibly), I said that $200 is far too much for selling work that they really didn't do. If pasting an imagine into a window and typing text on the image is worth $200, then it is those type of people that are spoiled with how much they expect to get. I guess I better be clear too, that I'm not talking about all the designers here, obviously, just the one's that don't have any graphic design talent and make money by slapping other people's image(s) together and call it a template. To me, it's ridiculous.

Anyway, thanks for the feedback, I was wanting to know if it was just myself that was bothered by it or had this opinion. So far, I am still the only one. I didn't post it to start an argument, so don't misunderstand what I said.

I agree with TG. Its not the price that is 'out of the question' but what you get for that price. Everyone has the right to charge as much as the market can bear, so if someone wants to charge 50 and another 1000, and they both get customers--so be it.

The problems is a lot of times someone who charges a couple of hundred dollars want to give you a design that is only worth 75. Or more so, something a person w/ a good web design book and program could have created themselves. It would seem like the point of going to a w.designer is so they can create a unique graphic/w.page that does not look like every third page on a search engine.

IF someone is charging 300 bucks, they should create a site worth it. And a picture of a person, a couple of buttons, and text is hardly worth three hundred bucks...when more than likely the the text and the photogarphy was purchased by the customer. So all the w.designer did was create a couple of tables, buttons and with magic made a great profit for little to no work.

above was just an example and no way is descriptive of every w.designer on the net. just an example of the few.

Well, I didn't mean using images/pictures was bad. A client of a web designer might not have the tools to put the picture into a graphic. Also, the designer's charging for the time to put something together. This too is okay and you have to charge for your time. I don't have any issues with that. I just have lately seen a few templates that are mainly just an image and then some text -- and that image is scanned or copied. I have to wonder what they did, to charge for this template. Other than the time it takes to paste the image in and put it together with some text, I don't see how they can charge for a full template design -- and I'd worry who owned that image that the main design revolves around too, to be honest.

lol do we get to see the template in question :)

as regards cost etc. it depends what people are prepared to pay. just because its someones livelihood doesnt mean i would pay over the odds. if it isnt paying enough to keep ya in venison and port then get a real job and stop playing around. its the big wide real world. not everyone can make a living tie dieing scarfs.
if the work is real quality. and i mean a properly integrated look that fits a company profile then yes its worth as much as the client is prepared to pay. not how much you think you need to get the carbs cleaned and a new set of pirellis for your corvette :)

a template is a reasonble chunk of the work required for a site. and sites go for big money. anything from 300 bucks to many 1000's. if i choose to outsource the template design due to say time constaints or i simply see a design which floats my boat then ill prolly allow 10-20% of the budget for it, depending on the type of site.

your bang on about the whole image scanning and copyright. people need to respect other peoples work. those that dont should be strung up by the short and curlies :) mistakes happen and people push the limits but repeated ripping of work is the lowest of the low.

I'm not saying that image was under someone's copyright, because it could be some free-to-use image. However, they didn't create it, that's for sure. It doesn't appear to be a scan, it looks like they downloaded it. Again, it could be a free-for-use image, but even if that's the case, what is someone paying for? Mind you, I'm not coming in here acting like I should have say of how much people think something's worth, I'm just a little thrown by how people are selling templates for over a few dollars, that don't have any real indication that any work was even put into it.

ahhh thats the crunch. i have a designer friend, lets just say he just a bit good :) i tend to pay him on average 25% more then he asks for and i never ask how long it took. some of his stuff prolly only takes half an hour which leaves him on several hundred bucks an hour. why am i happy to pay that. cos hes damn good and quite simply hes worth it.

cost per hour is relative. case in point. i was contracted to do some work in a school, setting up networks blah. anyways i gets a phone call saying theyve managed to trash it. how? ghosting win2k. not knowing this i quote a fixed price for sorting it. it was 20 minutes work to fix. whilst i didnt charge the full quote but i ended up making 4 figures an hour for that. why cos i spent quite a few years learning how to spot problems. would you rather pay an idiot the same amount of money to fix it in a week or me in 20 minutes? yeah i should really have done it gratis, but i have to eat and they will hire techs who know sweet fa. now i was going into a situation where i didnt know the problem, they wanted a fixed price, they got one.


try to forget how long it took to do, i know exactly where your coming from, but it will send you nuts, people with talent earn big bucks, the rest of us slave :) thats just the roll of the dice. whats important is simply how much its worth to you.

Well, to sum it all up, people have their freedom of choice.

You like it, you buy it, whether it's for 50 or for 500.

If you don't, maybe someone else would like it.

Designers need to eat you know, we don't earn money like web hosts that can charge recurring costs, ours is mostly one-time and we constantly have to think of new ideas to get a bit of bread and butter.

Originally posted by xharine
Well, to sum it all up, people have their freedom of choice.

You like it, you buy it, whether it's for 50 or for 500.

If you don't, maybe someone else would like it.

Designers need to eat you know, we don't earn money like web hosts that can charge recurring costs, ours is mostly one-time and we constantly have to think of new ideas to get a bit of bread and butter.

What's your point? I don't mean to sound harsh, but what's your point here!? This has nothing to do with what I like or not, that's all pretty obvious stuff. Obviously if someone's willing to pay for it, or more for it, that's what it comes down to, we all realize that. The point I made was, this wasn't about a new idea, or even an idea. I wouldn't call myself a designer, or try and sell a template because I pasted in someone else's graphic image on a splash screen with some text. I didn't debate how or why people need to earn money. This is like me installing a port monitoring tool on a server and asking for a few hundred dollars, because I secured their server with "my" port monitoring tool -- which it's different than just the regular tool, because I bothered to configure it, or act like I created the program because I configured it and maybe added a couple of really trivial, basic things that didn't improve the tool in any way.

Charge people for the time, fine. Charge people for what you did do, fine. Charge people for other people's images that you slapped in a graphic, called it a design/template, which the image you slapped on that you had nothing to do with that is 95% of the template design? Not so fine. This "we need to eat and live too" drama has absolutely no relevance to the topic I brought up. I never said designers shouldn't be paid for their work, nor did I say using images is a bad thing, nor did I say you don't deserve to eat, nor did I saw your work isn't worth what you charge. If you want a scenario, I would fully admit, that if you copy an image and add text to it and call it a template, that I will indeed (at that point) say that it's not worth it. Sure, someone might buy it, because it's worth it to them, but that's not what the topic was about. I hope that makes it more clear now.

Hi Tim,
Sorry I didn't make my point clear. =) No, you don't sound harsh, it's all in fairness to the open forum here. We're all entitled to our own views right?

As a designer who sells some templates here, I wish to point out that, not all templates are just "someone else images with some text". Some templates are really created with time and effort, just like I try to put in as much as I can.

It's really up to the individual buyer to decide whether a template is a piece of unique work worth paying for, or "someone else's images with some text".

Seriously, some people out there don't mind paying for "someone else's images with some text" as long as it looks fine to them.

Maybe to you it is "someone else's images with some text", but to some others it might be a great piece of work.

Design is subjective you know? I agree with you, really, that some templates are really "someone else's images with some text", but then again, just like some host companies here who spam, there are some bad eggs around in every industry, including designers.

Some of us here, sincerely put in effort and sells off a template for $50, while some of us does not, just whip up something and sells it for $100.

As I try to make my point, it's a consumer freedom of choice. The consumer is the one who has to decide, whether this particular template is worth the money, and whether he wants to buy it or not. If they decide that a template is just "someone else's images with some text", then they can choose NOT to buy it.

We can't filter all of them out right? Just like there will always be one or two bad examples in the host industry as well.

For me, I try to learn to live with it. Ultimately, if that piece of template is really some junk that is "someone else's images with some text", I doubt it will sell at all even if it's advertised.

I feel pained as well, when I put in effort and see my templates selling off at $50, and I see some templates obviously "inspired" by other designs and selling off for $200, but it's all in the good name of competition. I sincerely believe, for designers or for hosts, if we put in the right amount of effort, and give good support to our customers, there will be justification to our efforts in some way or another.

Originally posted by xharine
Hi Tim,
Sorry I didn't make my point clear. =) No, you don't sound harsh, it's all in fairness to the open forum here. We're all entitled to our own views right?


Yes, of course. Thanks.


As a designer who sells some templates here, I wish to point out that, not all templates are just "someone else images with some text". Some templates are really created with time and effort, just like I try to put in as much as I can.


Definitely.



It's really up to the individual buyer to decide whether a template is a piece of unique work worth paying for, or "someone else's images with some text".


Quite true. However, in regards to how and what I meant, that was all this was. it wasn't about using some other images, it (the template) pretty much consisted only/solely of that image and had some text thrown in. That was basically and about it. It seemed insane to expect to get $200 for something like that. There's no arguing the value depends on the person looking at it.


Seriously, some people out there don't mind paying for "someone else's images with some text" as long as it looks fine to them.


This is true. Also (off topic, of course) some people have really bad taste too. Heh.


Maybe to you it is "someone else's images with some text", but to some others it might be a great piece of work.


But, you see, it's not technically a piece of "work". Let's say I directly copied an image and sold it. Someone appreciates my work, because they like it, which is basically only consisting of this image (maybe nothing else). How can I expect to get money for that? Someone might like the image they see, but they are paying the wrong person at that point, since this designer didn't design it. Why should they be paid for it?


Design is subjective you know? I agree with you, really, that some templates are really "someone else's images with some text", but then again, just like some host companies here who spam, there are some bad eggs around in every industry, including designers.


Definitely there are people that do ridiculously lame or pathetic work, sure. I don't assume you to be one of these type of people, but I've seen some here lately. And, I don't mean just because I think it's ugly or something, but just because they are selling a template that only really consists of other people's work. It just doesn't seem correct, right or fair, and moreover, it strikes me as odd that they'd ask (for what it is) a lot for it.


Some of us here, sincerely put in effort and sells off a template for $50, while some of us does not, just whip up something and sells it for $100.


Very true.


As I try to make my point, it's a consumer freedom of choice.


Yes, it is. However, maybe the consumer doesn't realize how much work hasn't been put into some of these templates, or that it's using images that someone lifted off of a web site somewhere.


The consumer is the one who has to decide, whether this particular template is worth the money, and whether he wants to buy it or not.


Definitely.


If they decide that a template is just "someone else's images with some text", then they can choose NOT to buy it.


Sure, people decide based on how they personally feel. I personally feel insulted and annoyed about people that would prefer to lift an image off another site, throw in some text outlining made-up hosting plans and slap a $200 price on it. However, that might not bother some other people. I posted this thread, because I was curious of how many other people noticed the increasing frequency of this act here and what they thought.


We can't filter all of them out right?


Of course not and I honestly wouldn't care to try -- I'd only really care, if they were committing the copyright infringement (which I have to wonder sometimes).


Just like there will always be one or two bad examples in the host industry as well.


Well, we're talking about using someone else's image and making money off of it, acting like there was a lot of work involved (heck, for all I know, maybe it did involve a lot of work by the template designer (which would be really sad)), not comparing people that provide a poor service compared to a quality service. These are two different things, but I don't deny that there are good and bad designers. I never claimed anyone else other than the designers that do what I stated annoys me that do this, are doing this.


For me, I try to learn to live with it. Ultimately, if that piece of template is really some junk that is "someone else's images with some text", I doubt it will sell at all even if it's advertised.


I'm not sure what you mean about learning to live with it? Indeed, if it's crap, it probably won't sell, but this was simply a post to ask who else was annoyed by the frequency of crap that some so-called designers are trying to get away with. That has no reflection on you or any designer that doesn't do that sort of thing. It just seems ridiculous to me and I can't believe people like that are allowed to post here. But, I don't think I would care to try and make them not post here. I just think it's a little cheap (and I don't mean as per cost).


I feel pained as well, when I put in effort and see my templates selling off at $50, and I see some templates obviously "inspired" by other designs and selling off for $200, but it's all in the good name of competition.


I could imagine, but imagine how people would feel to find out that someone liften their image off their site, and threw it into what they called a "template" to sell to someone else and make money from their design. Not only that, but the other person makes money off their design and didn't even put in any effort or time, or talent or imagination. I find it annoying and I have to wonder what these type of people must be thinking.


I sincerely believe, for designers or for hosts, if we put in the right amount of effort, and give good support to our customers, there will be justification to our efforts in some way or another.

Yes, I agree -- as long as none of us go ripping off and taking credit for and selling and making profits off of other people's hard work. I'm sure we can all agree on that.

i don't know but some people try to give more value to '3d looks' templates more than simple and professional 2d made ones. they hav also got to learn that no matter how graphical it looks and how easy to make yourself it looks in the end, we also got to take into consideration how that designer spend most of his time thinking of what he can do to spice it up.

these are extra income to some desigeners, u can really judge a template which hav been worked hard on for hours and one that has simply been scaned and copied for some other place.

i know some designers might price their designs high for very 'simple' templates, but what can u do? thats the price for a 'unique' template which they 'beleive' is UNIQUE and came from their minds.

now some designers may feel over-proud of their work and charge a high price, but its up to u to bid for it.

kind regards,
a web designer

My biggest issue is in templates themselves. Frankly, they suck.

A website should be designed to hold the content, not the content to fit in the design. I would never make a template and sell it because that is not design. Design is talking with the client, figuring out exactly what they want (this is by far the most difficult step :-D), and creating a website with a flow that will accomadate the content.

It's not simply have "Link 1 Here | Link 2 Here | Link 3 Here" etc.

I understand that templates work for some people and that people will continue to produce them. But that is not design (chaning the colors and adding a log doesn't count).

BTW, what is a "tamplate"?
;)

template is prolly the wrong word, when ive used one ive used it as a theme. adapted the layout to fit my content. i dont just cut and paste text in. templates are very useful if you suddenly have lot of work on and need some themes or ideas quick.

Guess a bit confused....people are free to advertise templates. We are free to purchase or not. And, yes, I would agree we see a wide variety of templates advertised here. Some horrible....some so simple anyone could do it in 15 minutes....some nice, excellent to build around....some very nice, excellent to use for a site....and some truly inspired.

Just want to say personally, that I have built on-going relationships with several of the designers that I first came to know through their postings here. And, I am quite pleased with the work I have received from them. Are they pixelbrick? No! But I am able to satisfy my customers by using them at very affordable prices.

So, like anything else, if you like it and feel its worth the price, buy it. If not, just keep walking until you find one you do like.