I'm angry and want to vent my fury at WHT, although it's probably more of a mixture of iNet's fault and mine.

STICKIES: Using iNet, I purchased 2 stickies on 01 Jan. One for the Templates/Graphics Offers and Requests, and one for the Other Offers and Requests.

Both were advertising my website <<< my website >>> and each was a post telling people about the site etc. The posts were practically the same, although there was varied content which obviously applied more to selling templates in that forum, and content applying to selling domains/websites in the Other offers forum. So each post was similar, but not identical, I wanted each post to start at the same time, you know, start the advertising campaign at once etc. Each cost $25 for a week, so I paid iNet $50 via paypal, for the stickies to be made the next day, I posted the threads and informed iNet which threads I wanted pinned.

Now when you purchase a sticky, it says (clearly, admittedly) that:
THERE ARE NO REFUNDS AND NO TRANSFERS ON STICKY PURCHASES FOR ANY REASON!
NO EXCEPTIONS!That's fair enough. They asked me to read some rules, I've read the rules before I thought, I've been a member for well over a year and never breached any rules as far as I know, I didn't think there'd be a problem. The next day I woke up and both threads had been deleted, there were no stickies. I was told the reasons were that I had changed the font size in some writing? That's never been a problem before, but you could just edit it for me right? You don't have to delete it do you? Then I was told I wasn't allowed to place a post in both forums at the same time if they were similar, well I don't see why not if they're sticky - but fair enough, I accept that.

So I contacted WHT through support (2nd Jan), got the abover reply for the reason they were deleted, and was told: 'However we will endeavor to aid as best as possible'. Fantastic. I was then told a day later in the support ticket I could only use one of the stickies with that content, I was annoyed but agreed, and asked them to take my deleted post and put it back. I was then told it was not in their power to do that and they would have to contact iNet.

After some more discussion, I got a reply on 5th Jan telling me that iNet said I can have one sticky for this week, but the other one is non-transferable so I would lose out on the other one, $25 down the drain I assumed, and I'd lost out on 3 days already of my campaign. I replied asking him to do that. Then he told me there were already 2 stickies in the Other offers forum!. There wasn't room for mine! Couldn't iNet have some way of working that out and restricting me from purchasing if that was the case? Shouldn't they stop me from wasting my money like that?

I was then told (6th Jan by now) after asking what to do:
We have tried to the best of our ability to help your promotion...

At this point the moderation team does not have access to resolve the matter. You will need to contact iNet.

Well I contacted iNet 1 week ago about a seperate issue, they didn't reply, they're support is terrible.

Soooo, to wrap things up: I probably should have been in the very small percentage of people in the world who read the small print and terms and conditions etc, but I think this support is appalling. It's taken days to resolve a simple issue. Someone somewhere is doing something terribly wrong, I just wasted $50 on nothing, and I can't even do anything about it. Thanks a bunch WHT, you just lost a customer which was about to spend a lot more than $50 on you.

Am I completely in the wrong? Is this all my fault? Should I not at least be entitled to some compensation? A refund? A transferal to another week? A GODDAM EMAIL FROM INET? Words really can't explain my anger, not within those stupid WHT rules anyway :P.

Totally with you on that one, That was a compleate time wasting procegure you had to go through. But hey its okay atleast you never lost out 100's. Now that you had your experience share it with others.

I agree with you on this one as well. People need to step up here, iNet needs to get its act together support wise.

I agree with you on this one as well. People need to step up here, iNet needs to get its act together support wise.

Agreed. I don't see why they would remove threads that you paid for due to font sizes, even if it is in the rules. Paying money and having your sticky removed due to size restrictions is absurd.

mdempsey,

Take your money elsewhere, where they are capable of providing support. INET have never really understood the concept of excellent customer service. I don't think that attitude has changed, even with the new ownership.

I don't normally agree with these posts, but I am siding with you this time. At minimum, I believe Inet should offer to provide you with a refund for $25 or 1 sticky thread transfer (half of your purchase). Why? Because they sold you a sticky which was not delivered because only 2 can be purchased per forum.

Hmmm,

I was considering advertising on WHT, but after hearing this story, I think I'll stick to google adwords. Our experience with adwords has been good and promising thus far.

Thanks for the post :)

mdempsey,

Take your money elsewhere, where they are capable of providing support. INET have never really understood the concept of excellent customer service. I don't think that attitude has changed, even with the new ownership.


Wow, when I posted something like that I got warned like 10 points I think it was.

If you ordered something they refused to provide, dispute the Paypal charge.

Hmmm,

I was considering advertising on WHT, but after hearing this story, I think I'll stick to google adwords. Our experience with adwords has been good and promising thus far.

Thanks for the post :)

You just don't get to the hear success stories on WHT. ;)

I've been advertising with iNET for a few months now and each time went wondefully. The price is right, it works great, and desired results. I can't complain :gthumb:

If you ordered something they refused to provide, dispute the Paypal charge.
Agreeded. I would be contacting paypal explaining my story. Wouldn't hurt anything atleast. Even if paypal takes the side of inet, atleast you tried. I'm also looking into purchasing advertising on WHT as a stickie post. I better be sure to read the small print on this one. :)

I'm also looking into purchasing advertising on WHT as a stickie post.

With sticky posts, there are none available in the shared hosting forum until April :( Have there really been that many preorders, I would like one sooner.

Jesus. Guess I'll be waiting untill April :)

Agreeded. I would be contacting paypal explaining my story. Wouldn't hurt anything atleast. Even if paypal takes the side of inet, atleast you tried. I'm also looking into purchasing advertising on WHT as a stickie post. I better be sure to read the small print on this one. :)

Well, there's the good and bad with that. Good being that you will receive your money back, and the bad being that WHT may disable your account. That wouldn't be good :(

Wow, when I posted something like that I got warned like 10 points I think it was.
I wasn't bashing them. It's just INET have never been known for their great customer service.

Is it my understanding that the majority of you think that because he paid for the stickies, that we should have left them up and overlooked the two broken rules? :eek: And had the posts been reported (one infraction was from memory) we should just say in response, "oh that's fine, he's a paying customer so we'll let it slide"?

AEM,

I disagree: rules are rules.
Although I do believe he should be able to place his stickies at a later date - at different times (if he didn't get his full amount of time).

That's just me though.
No one should get any special priveleges (espescially ones to break rules) just because they dish out $.

Is it my understanding that the majority of you think that because he paid for the stickies, that we should have left them up and overlooked the two broken rules? :eek: And had the posts been reported (one infraction was from memory) we should just say in response, "oh that's fine, he's a paying customer so we'll let it slide"?

No, we are simply saying when a customer pays for something it is better business practice for you to let them know what the problem is before totally removing the stickie that they paid for.

I would say go to your credit card company and dispute the payment, if they did this to me I would do that.

They weren't sticky at the time of removal, he contacted us later to say they were due to be stickied and we told him what the problem was.

He didnt disagree to sort the problem out did he? If there were not stickied at the time then why what happened to his two stickies he had purchased?

Wow, when I posted something like that I got warned like 10 points I think it was.

10 warning points for sharing a fact?

He didnt disagree to sort the problem out did he? If there were not stickied at the time then why what happened to his two stickies he had purchased?
Moderating and advertising campaigns are separate areas. We don't know who purchased stickies and we don't have access to fix stuff.

Hey guys, didn't expect to get so much positive repsonse.

Contacting paypal:
Is it worth it? The support was poor and in my and most of your general opinions, this shouldn't have happened, I don't think it's morally right. But morals isn't what Paypal would look for, I broke the rules (:() which were stated, do I even have a case?

Also, the WHT mods. I'm not impressed with the time it takes for things to get sorted, but I don't blame them. They don't get paid from what I know, and I think it's iNet's problem and not theirs. Both admins who "helped" were anon-e-mouse and Oddfact, they tried to help, although they failed - they tried.

I think iNet's effort is appalling, and I think they need some real support. Live support with direct answers, I want help and I want my hard earned cash to be put to something worthwhile, not put down the drain.

I appreciate there are success stories with iNet, and congratulations to those related. Aussie Bob, I'd love to take my money elsewhere, but anyone who knows me and my site, knows I'm 16, I have no money and I'm running a service for free. That $50 meant a lot more to me than you'd know ;).

My experience with paypal, if you havent brought a physical good then you wont get a refund no mater how much evidence you provide, all they will do is put a mark against there account to take into account the next time someone disputes a payment. Its always best to pay by credit card so then you could just do a charge back.

10 warning points for sharing a fact?


Yes, I said something with how Inet just wants to make money or something. I do not see how that is any different here at all.

Hi
You can indeed get your money back for virtual goods. Just open a dispute, saying stick threads not delivered, and you will get your money back (99% sure)

Good to know.

It is your fault for breaking the rules. It's understandable that they got deleted.

Something that could have been done (should have been an option - I mean) is that you sent the message to a mod, and they posted it and sticked it.

Seems fair.

I'd like to hear if INET has anything to say.

Is it my understanding that the majority of you think that because he paid for the stickies, that we should have left them up and overlooked the two broken rules? :eek: And had the posts been reported (one infraction was from memory) we should just say in response, "oh that's fine, he's a paying customer so we'll let it slide"?

Agreed, its not like you can go donate money to the local police then go rob somebodies home, and when you get arrested say "HEY, I PAYED YOU!".

That said, I think iNet's sticky policy could use some work. Firstly, I think stickies should be refundable, but that the decision for the refund will be left up to iNet. In this case, iNet should refund you, or just place a 3rd sticky in the forum. It's not fair to take your $50 and not give you anything for it, even if you did break a rule. Even a 50% refund would be nice, but nothing just doesn't sound fair.

. . .THERE ARE NO REFUNDS AND NO TRANSFERS ON STICKY PURCHASES FOR ANY REASON!
NO EXCEPTIONS! . . . I think it would be more fair to include the full text of that message.
Attention WHT Sticky buyers

THERE ARE NO REFUNDS AND NO TRANSFERS ON STICKY PURCHASES FOR ANY REASON!
NO EXCEPTIONS!
ALL forum guidelines apply to purchased stickies.
Please familiarize yourself with them before purchasing.
By making your purchase you agree to having read and understood these terms.


It seems pretty clear to me. But, maybe it isn't. Any suggestions for improvement?

I think it would be more fair to include the full text of that message.

It seems pretty clear to me. But, maybe it isn't. Any suggestions for improvement?

I would suggest tatoo'ing it on the purchasers forhead before the transaction can be completed?

Too extreme?

Sirius

It seems pretty clear to me. But, maybe it isn't. Any suggestions for improvement?

Why is there an option for purchasing 2 stickies at the same timeframe if the rules are only 1 per 7 days?

And why am I allowed to purchase a sticky in a forum, when that forum is already full. Surely iNet should detect that or realise, and remove the option of me clicking the purchase link?

Why is there an option for purchasing 2 stickies at the same timeframe if the rules are only 1 per 7 days?

There is 2 stickies per forum, per week. In the big bold print it says familiarize yourself with the rules, in the rules it states you can only have 1 thread per week. If you can't read the rules, then you can't buy a sticky ;)

If you can't read the rules, then you can't buy a sticky ;)

Obviously, by the fact that he DID buy a sticky, that's not true. Logically, it would seem to me that it wouldn't allow you to purchase something against the rules. That's like us saying we won't host a certain type of domain name...and then allow that domain name to be ordered via our website.

The simple solution here would be for a live person from iNet to read over the sticky before its posted. If there's a problem with it, they should talk to the >>>> CUSTOMER <<<< and try to assist so that its acceptable.

--Tina

WHT-Announcements, WHT-Feedback, WHT-Questions
Forum to post general questions, comments, feedback and suggestions regarding WHT. General Forum announcements will also be posted here, please check back often for any significant changes that are due to be made to the forums..

Have you thought about rining contacting iNet about this issue?,They have a telephone number as well as a email address, As far as i know it is beyond the help of the moderators/admins here.


The simple solution here would be for a live person from iNet to read over the sticky before its posted. If there's a problem with it, they should talk to the >>>> CUSTOMER <<<< and try to assist so that its acceptable.

Why should they? If they state the WHT rules apply then it is up to the user to read them. Do you pay someone to check each website you host before they sign up? i think not....

. . . That's like us saying we won't host a certain type of domain name...and then allow that domain name to be ordered via our website. . .
I would liken it more to; you don't allow porn. Someone purchases hosting and uploads their porn site.

Surely you wouldn't allow the site to remain.

Why should they?

Its called customer service.


Do you pay someone to check each website you host before they sign up? i think not....

Actually, we do. We run a WHoIS on the domain, visit the website, check email abuse complaints (if any) on that domain and look at google cache if its no longer online. We also usually phone the person for fraud checking purposes. All of that is completely beside the point, as you're comparing apples to oranges.

Comparing apples to apples would be more like someone's script using too many resources on the server and, just because our ToS says so, we simply terminate the customer's account and keep their pre-payment...rather than temporarily suspending the account and WORKING WITH THE CUSTOMER for a resolution that is beneficial to both of us.

If iNet treats paying customers this way, that's their business...or lack of it. It just makes good business sense to keep your customers happy.

--Tina

I would liken it more to; you don't allow porn. Someone purchases hosting and uploads their porn site.

Surely you wouldn't allow the site to remain.

No, but I would communicate with the customer and try to remain on good terms with them. I would also refund their money if it was an obvious oversight on their part. People make mistakes and its not good business sense to rub paying customers' noses in it.

--Tina

No, but I would communicate with the customer and try to remain on good terms with them. I would also refund their money if it was an obvious oversight on their part. People make mistakes and its not good business sense to rub paying customers' noses in it.

--Tina

How can not READING the rules be an oversight? its in big bold righting fairly obvious to me. How are they rubbing customers' noses in it if it cleary states they have a no refund/transfer policy.

And that ALL rules apply. How can they make it any more obvious?

I know if I purchased something and then had it taken away because of some loophole I would want my money back.

It's not like he agreed to not upload porn and then uploaded porn. He used too many fonts, for crying out loud. The first is common sense, the second is a trap.

I would expect most, if not all, publishers would simply ask the advertiser (their C-U-S-T-O-M-E-R!) for revisions rather than saying "AHA! - you messed up. Now we have your money and there is nothing you can do!"

It's just bad business and it makes no sense, other than the fact that they could sell a whole lot of slots this way.

My company will not consider advertising here unless this thread has a reasonable outcome.

It wasn't the use of fonts so much, it was the same thread in different categories.

You can't do that, no matter how much you pay here.

It wasn't the use of fonts so much, it was the same thread in different categories.

You can't do that, no matter how much you pay here.

The thread starter mentioned that whilst they were both similar, they did vary in content. The rules do state that as long as their is a notable difference in content then you can post in seperate forums, or is there something I do not understand?

And why am I allowed to purchase a sticky in a forum, when that forum is already full. Surely iNet should detect that or realise, and remove the option of me clicking the purchase link?

You are correct, iNet is at fault here and for that reason you should have at least 1 sticky refunded ($25). You can not charge someone for a service which is not rendered. Not only is that a law, but common sense!


I would expect most, if not all, publishers would simply ask the advertiser (their C-U-S-T-O-M-E-R!) for revisions rather than saying "AHA! - you messed up. Now we have your money and there is nothing you can do!"

Exactly. I advertise in magazines at least 3 times per month, and if something is unacceptable I expect to be notified about it and be able to come to a reasonable agreement. iNet has some bad business practices that I do not condone and could never agree with.


My company will not consider advertising here unless this thread has a reasonable outcome.

Same here. I have been *trying* to advertise with iNet not with WHT, but Yaxay and several other sites, and I am concerned about this thread. If anyone from iNet reads this, I say trying because I have spent over a week emailing you without getting a responce. My.inetinteractive.com does not produce any results and I would like to buy some ads! Please PM me or reply to my emails. Being in Australia, I am NOT going to waste more money calling you.

I think the larger issue here is that the Mods aren't involved with INET's advertising side, and INET aren't involved with the Mod's side of things. There's a chinese wall built down the middle, to separate the commercial aspects of INET, from the day to day modding of WHT.

Now that wall is good, and needed. The Mods have to have some autonomy from INET, in enforcing the WHT rules, and INET's commercial drive can't (or shouldn't) override that authority to mod WHT etc.

However, I wouldn't like to see Mods removing paid sticky posts, because the poster uses a wrong font, or something small like that. Surely a quick edit, and a note off to the paying advertiser, is a more sensible course of action for all parties concerned?

<tongue_in_cheek>

There's no need for the Mods to try and emulate the actions of a DMOZ editor. :D

</tongue_in_cheek>

I think the larger issue here is that the Mods aren't involved with INET's advertising side, and INET aren't involved with the Mod's side of things. There's a chinese wall built down the middle, to separate the commercial aspects of INET, from the day to day modding of WHT.

Now that wall is good, and needed. The Mods have to have some autonomy from INET, in enforcing the WHT rules, and INET's commercial drive can't (or shouldn't) override that authority to mod WHT etc.

However, I wouldn't like to see Mods removing paid sticky posts, because the poster uses a wrong font, or something small like that. Surely a quick edit, and a note off to the paying advertiser, is a more sensible course of action for all parties concerned?

I don't want to name names, but I remember that Erica (from simpli.biz) and several other companies, myself included once have made the same mistake in advertising forums. What happened? A moderator simply changed the font and size to something acceptable.

I see how one can be confused from this - why have the option in Vbulletin if it is against the rules? Can't it be removed somehow to prevent confusion? The wrong font or size isn't exactly the worst rule change imaginable.

Whilst I agree that money should not control WHT, it should provide some power and/or leaniancy (sp?). Afterall those users are supporting the forum and keeping it open for all of us. If they are going to support WHT in the future, they should be treated better than this.

. . . However, I wouldn't like to see Mods removing paid sticky posts, because the poster uses a wrong font, or something small like that. . .
It wasn't the use of fonts so much, it was the same thread in different categories.

You can't do that, no matter how much you pay here.And to note further, when a thread is reported, we just look at the thread. Not really any reason to go look to see if it's stuck. If it's against policy; it's against policy.

The threads were removed as are any that break the rules. They were not sticky at the time of removal. We didn't know they were scheduled to be stickied either as we don't have access to that side.

Just out of curiousity, when someone buys a sticky, they post as per normal, and then someone sticks it?

Who sticks the thread? Can the mods do that, or does that have to be done from someone at INET?

When they purchase a sticky, they submit the URL of the thread they want sticky. It is then stuck on the date by the system.

Automation. The wave of the future! :D

Why not remove one of the offending threads, why both?

Automation. The wave of the future! :D

If the future includes snubbing paying customers...consider me old-fashioned.

I think if you're taking someone's money, you could do them the service of manually checking their order for "oopsies".

--Tina

When they purchase a sticky, they submit the URL of the thread they want sticky. It is then stuck on the date by the system.

Automation. The wave of the future! :D
Must be some dodgy automation* then, if the poster posted the thread, and it wasn't made a sticky before the mods modded it. :uhh:

*slow automation, or damn fast modding. :D

If the future includes snubbing paying customers...consider me old-fashioned.

I think if you're taking someone's money, you could do them the service of manually checking their order for "oopsies".

--Tina


I totally agree there. Orders should be checked.

slow automation


I think that's an oxy-moron. :P

--Tina

I have a few questions..

1) Should stickies and forum posts be subject to the same same rules?

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Stickies are paid advertisements and as such should be allowed more liberties with things such as colors, bolded font, or similey usage. If I have paid for the post then I better be able to put what I want in it as long as I keep it family friendly and it is on topic for the forum I purchased it for. :) (Note: I've never purchased a sticky but, I have considered it.)

2) Does the following text give anyone the right to keep your money even if they have not given you what you purchased?


THERE ARE NO REFUNDS AND NO TRANSFERS ON STICKY PURCHASES FOR ANY REASON!
NO EXCEPTIONS!


Short answer: I don't think so.
Long answer: Depends on your credit card issuer I would think. So far I've yet to see a webhosting company get to keep funds paid to them without providing services even if they have a no refunds clause in their TOS.

Even more of an interesting question would be should iNet treat their customers like that? Now I understand not wanting to have to deal with customers wanting refunds because their ROI was bad or such but, even Dell makes sure their ordering system and customer service protects customers from their own stupidity. :) iNet might want to take a page out of their book.

If services aren't provided then funds should not be collected. At least that is my opinion. ;)

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. This is just opinion and should not be read or used by anyone for any reason. :)

I agree - except for #1. I think that if iNet wants them to follow the same format as non-paid posts, that's fine. However, I do think that paid customers deserve a bit of hand holding and checking over an ad before it posts. It would be a very good way to build customer appreciation and loyalty (read, SPEND MORE MONEY) and still maintain the level of quality that iNet is trying keep up.

--Tina

I agree - except for #1. I think that if iNet wants them to follow the same format as non-paid posts, that's fine. However, I do think that paid customers deserve a bit of hand holding and checking over an ad before it posts. It would be a very good way to build customer appreciation and loyalty (read, SPEND MORE MONEY) and still maintain the level of quality that iNet is trying keep up.

--Tina

#1 might be more along the lines of allowing multiple posts about the same website's different services. I believe that is one of the points mentioned in the first post of the thread.

I think people are missing the fact when the threads were removed for breaking the rules they weren't stuck. The moderators didn't know they'd be stuck; all we knew is that the user was breaking the rules. Therefore, even if it was policy to be more lenient with 'paid threads' (which it isn’t afaik), it wasn't a paid thread at that time, and so we had no reason to be lenient – it looked like any normal thread breaking the rules. Moderators also have discretion in any matter based on the previous posting history of the user – sometimes it’s better to quickly edit it, edit it and warn the user, or delete it and warn the user depending on the rule(s) broken. I don’t know what the threads were or the history of the user, but a moderator saw 2 threads with similar content and/or other rule issues and removed them. It happens all the time here.

By purchasing a sticky (or 2 or 3 or 4 or 5) from INET you agree to post the advertisement within the WHT rules (it says it right there on the order page). Think of it like a contract. You pay $x to get to do Y. In this case, post a thread within the rules and in return for that $x you get it stuck. The user broke the rules, thus breaking the contract, thus making it all null and void. Think of the WHT rules as the fine print – do you have sign a contract without reading the fine print? The answer would be no. I would imagine that with a sticky post you spend quite a bit of time making it perfect to get the maximum ROI – as part of that process I know I would read the rules, and I imagine the vast majority of people would also?

Yeah it does seem that way :s If we were to allow "relaxed" rules for stickies, then there would be a thread started saying that all iNet cares about is making money, forget the rules. The threads were reported for abusing the seven day rule, in addition to the formatting of the posts.

Taking a look at the threads again, all that was different was the title.

Well this has gotten far more response than I expected. I appreciate I broke the rules, and that all the Mods, and Community Liasons and every other superior titled person here, are disagreeing with me. That is fair enough, I broke the rules they know so well - and I deserve to be punished for them.

I think what everyone else here who isn't superior is trying to say, is that it would be common fairness and good business practice for iNet to at least communicate with me, and try and sort out the problem with their customer, rather than doing what they've done. This has definately served a lesson to me, and to others aswell from what I've heard.

I emailed iNet early on yesterday via their support feature with a question/complaint. I also referred to this thread, lets see if anything is done. I appreciate they probably don't work at the weekend, so I'll give them until the end of Tuesday to make a response, then I'll try and go to paypal. Probably with no avail, I personally can't imagine they can do anything - but there's no harm in trying like a couple of you said.

I'll keep you lot updated with the situation.

. . . then I'll try and go to paypal. Probably with no avail, I personally can't imagine they can do anything - but there's no harm in trying like a couple of you said. .Giving demands and deadlines doesn't sound like the best solution.

iNET hasn't done weekends for as long as we've known them.

These were not sticky threads when they were removed. I think I need to repeat this over and over because everyone is treating them like they were. They were not. They were the normal free ads. When you order a sticky, you submit the URL as explained above. The sticky don't go up right then. New stickies go up on Monday.

These threads that were against forum guidelines were not puchased stickies.

Can iNET shore up their communication? Sure. I know I could use some work on mine too.

As you can tell, this type of incident is a rare occurance. The grand majority have no problems ordering and placing of sticky threads.

But please remember, the threads in question were not purchased sticky threads at the time of their removal.

I think this puppy's been beat about as much as it can be beat. If you have an issue with iNET, please contact iNET.

Thread Closed.