AddSupport.com has officially failed before it even got started. We lost our deal with the company in Asia that we were going to use for our labor force. Therefore I wanted to take a minute and apologize to all the people that mailed me, for wasting your time. I have decided to part ways with the co-founder of addsupport.com and to go off on my own. Therefore if anyone is interested in taking over the domain name, and/or site design please contact me. Once again I apologize for wasting everyone's time, I put in a lot of work on that site, and I never meant to deceive any of you. This is a great community by the way, a lot of you helped me out with a lot of great feedback. I would also like to thank AndyC, his input was very helpful.

To all of the customers who contacted me, I would like to suggest that you contact BobCares, he has been in this game for awhile now so I feel you would be in good hands there. This is a sad day for me I have been working on this idea 18 hours a day for 3 months now. It was great getting to know some of you.

AddSupport.com

thats horrible to have it go down.
what whats thing labour force in asia ?
"We lost our deal with the company in Asia that we were going to use for our labor force. "

Slaves ? lol

Please get in contact with us. We would be interested in possibly moving forward with this project with you. We have not talked to you but are interested in your idea.

Thanks

From the site:
4-22-02 - Out of Business!

You gotta be In before you go Out. :eek:

On a serious note, that's awful man. Was the asia market your only business model option?

Good luck in the future. I'm also interested in taking the addsupport concept further, in a partnership with someone. PM if you're interested in doing so.

Is this news for F***edCompany.com? :D

On a serious note, I doubt there is lack of labor force in Asia. NetSol outsources in the Philippines. India and Pakistan also have competent and english-speaking IT support personnel.

Of course I'd rather you hired us American boys to do the job right, but then we want something decent and not below minimum wage.

Wow, this is a major disappointment. I had already removed my helpdesk in anticipation of using your service. Not that I blame you at all.

I guess it is time to find another 24/7 support solution.


Andyc

That really sucks dude.

As much as I feel for you, I strongly disagree with your decision to outsource labor to Asia!!!

This is one of the major causes for the poor economy, companies trying to save money by outsourcing overseas. Workers lose jobs, they have no money to spend and in turn everything except the pockets of the corporate execs shrinks. This is why I make it a point to only hire US based designers, programmers. I also try to buy only "Made in USA" products when I can (e.g. My car, etc.)

Refsoft - It was the only way to compete, I wasn't real thrilled about it myself, but the fact is with Poornam offering services out of India our only hope was finding a company that would let us get labor cheap. These are not slaves they live very well off what they make.

AndyC - I am SO sorry about that, I never meant to cause you any problems.

timechange - There is not a labor shortage in India, but my business partner kind of screwed us on the whole deal, and I did not want to stay in business with him. Honestly I gave thought to ditching my partner and trying to find another company to outsource to in another country, but I decided not to for 2 reasons.

1. For the reasons Refsoft mentioned, I was being haunted by this, I kept telling myself that it was the only way to survive, but I still wasn't happy with myself.

2. When this happened I re-examined my business plan, and the fact was that without a dependable company to outsource to overseas, the business plan was shaky. This reminded me of something I already knew. Never start a company that has a single point of failure.

Please contact me via email if you are interested in taking this over, you should still be able to email me through these forums. Just be prepared that it is a VERY difficult business to make successful. Which is why you only see Bobcares on here, and he is using very cheap labor from India. Here is an interesting fact I learned while researching this business. Someone that makes $100,000 in America, would get paid $20,000 in India. The wages in Asia were about the same. The average LINUX admin makes 35-50k per year here. Which means you could get them for 10k a year or less in India. That is $192 a week for the high end. Which consequently is only slightly more than my cable bill.

That is $192 a week for the high end. Which consequently is only slightly more than my cable bill.Wow that's one huge cable bill!

On a serious note, a lot of folks don't value the work that is provided by good tech support personel. These are the people that have first contact with upset clients, or clients who just need a hand with something that may be a bit out of their league. For me it's really really hard to even consider letting a group of people who you've never seen nor spoken to handle that relationship at such a key time. And then their is the whole part about giving those jobs outside of the US when we (those of us in the US at least) really need them to stay here,

I would be willing to pay a good deal for outsource tech support within the US if I had the ability to speak to and interview some (if not all) of the people handling the calls. Of course I'll have to actually have customers before they'll need support, but that's another issue. :)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you want to make it happen on our own turf you can do it. There are those of us willing to pay a premium for really good closer-to-home service. Someday I'll be looking.

At any rate, good luck with whatever you wind up doing.

Originally posted by Refsoft
As much as I feel for you, I strongly disagree with your decision to outsource labor to Asia!!!

This is one of the major causes for the poor economy, companies trying to save money by outsourcing overseas. Workers lose jobs, they have no money to spend and in turn everything except the pockets of the corporate execs shrinks. This is why I make it a point to only hire US based designers, programmers. I also try to buy only "Made in USA" products when I can (e.g. My car, etc.)

Gee, buy american only when the quality of the product is worth it. Best printing press, german ( hidelburg). best steel treatment Luxemburg. best global steel at GM auto ( from India second Brazil ). not many things are that good in america and for all intensive purposes it's our own fualt.

Don't try to blame the economy on people doing the right thing. Outsourcing is one of the best business moves you can do. We did it to the garment industry ( and still do ). certain part of the chip industry is overseas ( i know mexico has a few huge intel plants and the labor rate there is 40% less )

Heck, I was looking to buy a new home recently and I was stuck between buying in Mexico, Brazil and Spain. still have not figured where I want one. but I can tell you this. all three countries. Private Free Health Care with top quality doctors. ( oh by the way, blaim lack of free health care to IKE or Truman ( old presidents of the USA ) backing down from the UAW in the 50's.

china got the TV industry when the USA in the late 70's gave it some reduced tax issues, they got the toy games industry when they figured out that they could recycle our plastic scrap and make the games with it. China has stated that It will happilly devaule it-self against the J-yen, S-dollar, and a few other currencies to protect it's market share of business.

Here let me hit people where it really hurts. how many people in your living area ( your block ) have illegal sublets ( like a 2-family but should be 1 family ). then think about the taxes you pay for your home and how that other party is paying less taxes because he has an income to ofset. and top it off you might have lost a parking spot. my town is doing a housing audit, found that within my 400 yards of my house there was 7 - 2 family homes ( all 2 families and above are illegal in the zoning area that I live in )

or how about those contractor that hire the imagrant labor that is here illegally ( you ever see those guys that hang on the corners in the morning waiting to do contracting work for some home builder )

I found this thread and it points to the tipical attitude of the consumer of the states ( all you need is to read the first page ) http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=329405#post329405
want the cheapest price ... want the cheapest price, oh yes there has got to be service also at the cheapest price.

Next thing you'll say is shorting stocks is un-american.

Mike

Originally posted by DizixCom


I would be willing to pay a good deal for outsource tech support within the US if I had the ability to speak to and interview some (if not all) of the people handling the calls. Of course I'll have to actually have customers before they'll need support, but that's another issue. :)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, if you want to make it happen on our own turf you can do it. There are those of us willing to pay a premium for really good closer-to-home service. Someday I'll be looking.

At any rate, good luck with whatever you wind up doing.

just a quick note, your banking ( if done by one of the big 6 ), mutal funds ( bigger houses not all ) are handled via the phillippines and malaysia. you can not even tell they are not american. I've been fooled 20 times or more. the only time you speak to a person that is american is when you have a problem that they can not resolve and with a click they send you back to a call center in the states.

Mike

Originally posted by timechange
Is this news for F***edCompany.com? :D

On a serious note, I doubt there is lack of labor force in Asia. NetSol outsources in the Philippines. India and Pakistan also have competent and english-speaking IT support personnel.

Of course I'd rather you hired us American boys to do the job right, but then we want something decent and not below minimum wage.

A bit off topic here, timechange, I think you are a great person. But certainly anyone with the right ability are capable of "doing the job right" :)

Originally posted by Omni


A bit off topic here, timechange, I think you are a great person. But certainly anyone with the right ability are capable of "doing the job right" :)

I don't think I am being off-topic. Bill Clinton raised the H1 visas for foreign workers from 64,000 to 100,000+ per year. Then it was raised to 128,000+ while the US economy was booming. The foreign workers were a welcome surplus. Well they need to bring this down again now. The US economy is hurt badly.

Again outsourcing is good when you need extra hands to handle the job. But to use extra hands while your own are twiddling their thumbs is plain stupid.

Originally posted by ADEhost



Don't try to blame the economy on people doing the right thing. Outsourcing is one of the best business moves you can do. We did it to the garment industry ( and still do ). certain part of the chip industry is overseas ( i know mexico has a few huge intel plants and the labor


I disagree!

Outsourcing may be good from a profit stand point,
but in the long run it hurts *everyone*.

I do my very best NOT to buy clothing manufactured
out of the states. I only buy cars built in Detroit
and I only bank at smaller more local banks that
are based in the states and have all their work
force here (for the most part.)

And YES, you can blame the economy on this. Kraft
laid off thousands a few weeks ago in their life
savers plant. They killed a whole town to save a
few cents per candy. They put thousands of people
on the streets, Levi's did the same thing. How
can you call this a good thing?

This is the same reason I closed doors on my support business. Now we only do small consulting jobs and managed hosting. Trying to compete with companies like Bobcares is just impossible and customers didn't understand why our rates were higher than them.

It's a very difficult business to be in. It's one of those that at times you make money and other time you loose money. At the end you just hope you break even. Don't evern mention Windows support, cost goes way high.

Good luck to you.

Originally posted by Refsoft
. Kraft laid off thousands a few weeks ago in their life
savers plant. They killed a whole town to save a
few cents per candy. They put thousands of people
on the streets, Levi's did the same thing. How
can you call this a good thing?

it's called trimming, get rid of the dead wood, those of the least productivity are removed, the best stay. Ever see how General Electric does it's job ( on Jack W. time ). eveyone get's a review then the low guys get help if they can not make it they are teminated.

Infact let me site some other examples of deadwood that need good old hachet work.

Look for local banks that are publicly traded. In NJ we have a few where the years' profits were lower than the salieries of the president and some fo the board( not telling you which ones they are because they'll be ripe for shareholder takeover or revolt ). so you know how to play this stock, buy it get on the board, force the oust the officers and then let your bank get into play.

Also the example of the candy company, 1 penny saved per unit, over 1000000 million units per day, is $10K per day or 3.65 million a year to the bottom line not including labor. should give the stock a nice boost.

this all balls down to something that I believe in very much. Education, education, education & risk taking. try to always learn to keep yourself valuable to your employers. also people should always read newspapers from other countries so that they can see how bad they have it in relation to what we got. in europe thier are some countries that have over 10% unemployment rates ( I think that some still have over 15% but I'm not sure ) what do we have 6%.

my .02

Mike

Originally posted by cahostnet
This is the same reason I closed doors on my support business. Now we only do small consulting jobs and managed hosting. Trying to compete with companies like Bobcares is just impossible and customers didn't understand why our rates were higher than them.

It's a very difficult business to be in. It's one of those that at times you make money and other time you loose money. At the end you just hope you break even. Don't evern mention Windows support, cost goes way high.

Good luck to you.

Cahostnet, I say one thing. Better to have tried and failed than to never have tried before. one of the firms that I own has about 9 people that are ex-owners of failed firms, those 9 are such guard dogs about my firm that their is not a penny acounted for, nor a contract reviewed 3 times nor a step taken without a story behind it explaining the down side ( risk structure, chance of entire loss, .... ). rather a fun place to walk into every now and then.

Mike

Originally posted by Refsoft
I also try to buy only "Made in USA" products when I can (e.g. My car, etc.)

Open up your computer, I bet 90% of the components are made in Asia countries (Taiwan/Malaysia/Phillipine, etc).

cheers,
:beer:

adehost, good point and nicely said.

Originally posted by timechange


I don't think I am being off-topic. Bill Clinton raised the H1 visas for foreign workers from 64,000 to 100,000+ per year. Then it was raised to 128,000+ while the US economy was booming. The foreign workers were a welcome surplus. Well they need to bring this down again now. The US economy is hurt badly.

Again outsourcing is good when you need extra hands to handle the job. But to use extra hands while your own are twiddling their thumbs is plain stupid.

No I mean I am saying something off-topic - of what you said about who has the ability of "doing the job right".

Originally posted by dektong


Open up your computer, I bet 90% of the components are made in Asia countries (Taiwan/Malaysia/Phillipine, etc).

cheers,
:beer:

Depends on the computer, and the brand. Mine is
assembled in the states by Gateway, with parts from
pretty much everywhere. I did notice a few Made in
USA's in it though ;)

Originally posted by timechange
I don't think I am being off-topic. Bill Clinton raised the H1 visas for foreign workers from 64,000 to 100,000+ per year. Then it was raised to 128,000+ while the US economy was booming. The foreign workers were a welcome surplus. Well they need to bring this down again now. The US economy is hurt badly.

Again outsourcing is good when you need extra hands to handle the job. But to use extra hands while your own are twiddling their thumbs is plain stupid.

good point brought up, but I would like to add something to your statement. Do People realize that over 70 percent of foreign workers send money back to there home land, and when they made there pot of gold here in the USA they leave ( over 40% ). what would be better ( in my view ) is to grant top graduating students of foreign countries ( like India, Packistan.... ) the oppertunity of citizenship and the chance to bring there entire family over also. This way we keep the knowledge they have within the USA. somewhere I read that this is called the "brain drain of the USA " where we have top student of foreign countries leaving to go home again and educate there populace.

Mike

Originally posted by ADEhost


good point brought up, but I would like to add something to your statement. Do People realize that over 70 percent of foreign workers send money back to there home land, and when they made there pot of gold here in the USA they leave ( over 40% ). what would be better ( in my view ) is to grant top graduating students of foreign countries ( like India, Packistan.... ) the oppertunity of citizenship and the chance to bring there entire family over also. This way we keep the knowledge they have within the USA. somewhere I read that this is called the "brain drain of the USA " where we have top student of foreign countries leaving to go home again and educate there populace.

Mike
Agree with you totally ADEhost :) Happening around asia and most probably everywhere else around the globe

ADEhost,

I have no problems with buying foreign products, my Nike's are made in Vietnam. I almost typed Korea, but then I double checked and was rather surprised. :)

For outsourcing something like tech support however, I would simply not be comfortable if I didn't meet the people handling the calls face-to-face. Pleasing my customers has to be a top priority over everything else and unless I can intimiately know the folks I am outsourcing such a critical piece of my business to, I could not be comfortable. Bobcares has an excellent reputation though, and based on that alone I might some-day consider taking a chance.

As for banking, my bank was bought by ABN Amro Group who I believe is from the Netherlands, but firmly seated all across the globe.

And I really don't think too many educated people think shorting stocks is unamerican. I sell calls and buy puts and one of my favorite mutual funds is RYVNX.

All this is very well, but why does everything have to be America, america, america? Why can't some people say that smart students going back to their respective countries to better educate their "populace" is a good thing as in the long run it would help create a better and more equal world?

Why do you people think that the USA is at the centre of every equation?

To me, America is the center of every equation because it is my home. I love my home and wish for my home to remain as great is it is. I wish nothing less for the rest of the world, but this is my home and my first priority.

Originally posted by DizixCom
ADEhost,

As for banking, my bank was bought by ABN Amro Group who I believe is from the Netherlands, but firmly seated all across the globe.

And I really don't think too many educated people think shorting stocks is unamerican. I sell calls and buy puts and one of my favorite mutual funds is RYVNX.

yep they rank on the top 10 list that's for sure ( 8th if I recall correctly un the USA and 5th in Europe, don't know there asia stats)

In reference to shorting, 1987 crash ( I was right there on the street and at the exchange ) if you would have mentioned short sellers that day, you would have been dragged around the block, later on I could almost feel the senate breathing down our firm's back. General public cried after 9/11 buy stocks to prove your americanism. biggest fear that brought was how to price the options ( volitility hit some new highs that day that even one of my charts told me to get the hell away from the market ). even 1 of the biggest shorting web sites posted that week please don't short stocks notice.

also thanks for the tip RYVNX, looks like it's got some good trading volitility on both ends.

mike

Originally posted by osmono
All this is very well, but why does everything have to be America, america, america? Why can't some people say that smart students going back to their respective countries to better educate their "populace" is a good thing as in the long run it would help create a better and more equal world?

Why do you people think that the USA is at the centre of every equation?

well spoken, I happen to agree with you on the long term view, but untill the game is played fairly in all countries, why should we not dominate the game. In the USA we are more public about our business dealing than most.
example: the only way we can bribe other business is with government funding and programs ( government developement loads that will never be paid off ) While other business can do so freely without government oversite.

yes in the USA it is illegal to bribe. while in other countries it is considered the cost of doing business and not even mentioned in the law books.

just pointing out the facts people. don't kill the delivery boy.

what gives america it's advantage over most nations is the opertunity to take risk. heck untill 50 years ago you could only get here as an immagrant via a boat. that in itself is a huge risk. that is what gives my nation the edge. natural born risk takers.

now take a country like Korea, super great country with low labor rates. most people don't know that they can not even get unemployment ( something we american take for granted ), that culture depends on loyalty to the firm for protection of it's job, here in NJ I see the big Korean community where everyone is working hard 24/7/365. I wish I had such a family ethic to work that damm hard. short story, an old man fell down on the ice infront of his store ( korean fellow), I helped him to his feet, walked him inside the store, called his son and everything was alright. that was 12 years ago. every year I get an invitation for the old mans b-day. every year I've gone ( even practiced a bit of koraean to give proper salutation him and his age) evey year the family has prospered and grown. given I did not understand how 14 people could live together when I first met them. but within 1 year I had alot of respect for the old man and his family. the store is now a big wholesale market. down by the tracks a few towns over. his kids have grown to have children. and they still have that great work ethic.


We are the luckiest people, anybody can become happy to there terms ( children, religion, home, auto or even money ) without giving up there morals. I see it everyday. we should look around and work to protect these opertunities.

Mike

p.s. I'm long winded sorry.

Refsoft,

I can understand how you want the U.S. economy to go up.
But, do try to consider other designers (not just in the U.S.).
You'll be surprised of the quality of designs and service. :)

We are from the Philippines, by the way.

Anyway, sad to hear about this bad news on AddSupport.com, I empathize with AddSupport. I hope that you guys will find something to work on in this hard time.

Take care everyone.

:)



Originally posted by Refsoft
... I make it a point to only hire US based designers, programmers. I also try to buy only "Made in USA" products when I can (e.g. My car, etc.)

Originally posted by ADEhost


well spoken, I happen to agree with you on the long term view, but untill the game is played fairly in all countries, why should we not dominate the game. In the USA we are more public about our business dealing than most.
example: the only way we can bribe other business is with government funding and programs ( government developement loads that will never be paid off ) While other business can do so freely without government oversite.

yes in the USA it is illegal to bribe. while in other countries it is considered the cost of doing business and not even mentioned in the law books.

just pointing out the facts people. don't kill the delivery boy.

what gives america it's advantage over most nations is the opertunity to take risk. heck untill 50 years ago you could only get here as an immagrant via a boat. that in itself is a huge risk. that is what gives my nation the edge. natural born risk takers.



I agree with you Mike -- one fundamental element of American culture is entrepreneurialism. But I'm always wary when people point only to American virtues as the reason it is presently on top.

Yes, (relative) lack of corruption, risk-taking cultural elements, laissez faire capitalism, etc., etc. all give America an economic advantage.

What also gives America its advantage:
- initially grew to prosperity on the backs of slaves
- didn't heed the most basic environmental safety precautions for decades (which we now impose on the developing world)
- hasn't fought a war on its own soil in more than a century

Just to name a few.

Don't get me wrong, I love this place. But there's a lot more to America's "edge" than being a risk-taking people (which we are).

Don't kill the delivery boy ;)

Originally posted by WillSmith


I agree with you Mike -- one fundamental element of American culture is entrepreneurialism. But I'm always wary when people point only to American virtues as the reason it is presently on top.

Yes, (relative) lack of corruption, risk-taking cultural elements, laissez faire capitalism, etc., etc. all give America an economic advantage.

What also gives America its advantage:
- initially grew to prosperity on the backs of slaves
- didn't heed the most basic environmental safety precautions for decades (which we now impose on the developing world)
- hasn't fought a war on its own soil in more than a century

Just to name a few.

Don't get me wrong, I love this place. But there's a lot more to America's "edge" than being a risk-taking people (which we are).

Don't kill the delivery boy ;)

start of a valid arguement let me offer counterpoint

preface: the times of slavers and slaves are not condomed by me. I am looking at this example via a business frame of mind without a moral outlook


the slavery issue:
gave certain advantages but what people fail to realize is that by the late 1700 to early 1800 the value of a slave was worth more that an asian or an irishman, so the ( modern business phrase ) "assest allocation" of a slave was placed into more higher revenue producing work.

the proof of the above: mississippi river work, most port work, most building projects. well document.

the environmental safety precautions for decades :
Nobody did so that part of the arguement is mute


the "hasn't fought a war on its own soil in more than a century"
this is a big disadvantage for us. Why.
after most conflicts come out rebuilding, this rebuilding places the latest advancement in machinery into the factory floor. good example is germany, japan on a lesser note korea and taiwan.

the above would be called the "cleaning house", if we had a major conflict within the USA, I would dread the outcome to the rest of the world, we would be mostly cleaner( less pollution), more agressive and most likely start and expansionalist policy ( heck we are doing it now with nafta ).

but before that I'm willing to wager where the next major conflict in the USA will be .... to be told later

Mike

Originally posted by ADEhost


the slavery issue:
gave certain advantages but what people fail to realize is that by the late 1700 to early 1800 the value of a slave was worth more that an asian or an irishman, so the ( modern business phrase ) "assest allocation" of a slave was placed into more higher revenue producing work.

the proof of the above: mississippi river work, most port work, most building projects. well document.



I'll take your word for it. But that doesn't change the fact that America capitalized on forced labor for centuries, labor that would have cost considerably more had it enjoyed free movement.


the environmental safety precautions for decades :
Nobody did so that part of the arguement is mute


All I meant is that developing nations can't possibly be expected to develop as fast as America did with one hand tied behind their backs. My point might not explain how America rose to such prosperity; it does partly explain how America is able to stay there.

Quoted from this (http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45431&highlight=addsupport) thread on 4/22/2002:
Originally posted by AddSupport
Hello Matthew,
We currently have 6 techs and 2 Systems Admins and I double as Sales and a Systems Admin currently. This is what we felt we needed to start out with. As demand grows and business increases we will hire additional employees as needed to ensure a high level of service.

If you are worried about us getting overloaded and taking 24 hours to respond to our client's customers, don't. One key factor is that we work on a SLA system, so if we get so overloaded that we are missing all of our SLA's for that month that means that we would be refunding ALL of our customers ALL of their money. We are in this business to make money so it would not make sense for us to EVER allow this to happen.

I would like to add that we have done our research and due diligence on this business. I have been lucky that Amar from bobcares.com is such an honest and open person. Amar is a smart guy and I have learned a lot from reading his posts. I have read every single thread I could find from him on these boards and I used a pen and a piece of paper to make notes. We are not a company that is going to be here today and gone tomorrow.

Originally posted by Hostbust
Quoted from this (http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45431&highlight=addsupport) thread on 4/22/2002:


That was cold and uncalled for, everyone knows he failed, but at least he tried. 99% of most people don't even try.

as for the text you highlighted in bold, that was part of his sales pitch, which I might add alot of host have something simular within thier pages.

"kick a man while he is down, he'll pass out, but if he got sight of you before he went under, you've made an enemy" - unknown street beggar

Facts sometimes can be cold. I merely pointed out a cross referrence of information.

You have not a clue my interest in this particular company so please dont assume my intentions are negative.

They are not, although I will not mention why.

I agree with ADEhost.

In my opinion, HostBust, the one you quoted should not be posted at all. Why? It is adding "insult to injury". I hope you will try to be more considerate. Ok? Just my opinion.

Although you have the point, but it is, yes, uncalled for.

Thanks.

:)


Originally posted by ADEhost

That was cold and uncalled for, everyone knows he failed, but at least he tried. 99% of most people don't even try.

Originally posted by consul
I agree with ADEhost.

In my opinion, HostBust, the one you quoted should not be posted at all. Why? It is adding "insult to injury". I hope you will try to be more considerate. Ok? Just my opinion.

Although you have the point, but it is, yes, uncalled for.

Thanks.

:)





Im not so sure he "Failed" as you say "Everyone" knows.

I am not convinced yet, and is part of what I am not mentioning.

You may agree with ADEHost, and not agree with me, but we can at least understand that you don't know what I am working on considering this company, but you do know I understand yours, and ADE's point.

No ill will towards Addsupport is implied, nor intended.

Hostbust,

Point well-taken. Thank you for responding. I wish you well with your plans.

:)

Originally posted by WillSmith


I'll take your word for it. But that doesn't change the fact that America capitalized on forced labor for centuries, labor that would have cost considerably more had it enjoyed free movement.


most of the world at one point used force labor, it just happens to be that we ( the USA ) has the better documented and open history about it. Heck we went to war over it.

to be very truthful the only country that I don't know about slavery is Mexico, I have never read anything about them having slaves. and I'm not sure if they ever had any.


Originally posted by WillSmith

All I meant is that developing nations can't possibly be expected to develop as fast as America did with one hand tied behind their backs. My point might not explain how America rose to such prosperity; it does partly explain how America is able to stay there.

there hands are not tied behind there backs, if they spent just a small amount of time learning from the europeans, south americans, and USA, they can find every mistake we made and avoid them.

example
1) from europe, decimation of there forest, there is no old growth forest in europe that I know of that has not been chopped down atleast once. in the past 300 years.

2) south america, land reform, get the land into as many people as possible, and whatever is left over conver into national parks.

3) polution controls - learn from what we have done wrong and how we are doing better to clean it.

here is another example of using common sense.

What is better for a developing nation Steam engines or Diesel in transportation of industrial goods, Steam engines, because on long huals diesel just don't go the distance or have the power. Steam engines because the cost of fuels is cheaper to aquire and they don't have to spend to buy fuel, pollution in the air is just plain old dirty carbon ( co2 ) not the other ozone killing products. and with a proper resource management program you can get the rail roads to replant certain amounts of forest for every ton of fuel they use ( relocking in the carbon back to the trees )

India and brazil made that mistake ( they have tons of wood for power).


Mike

consul, I was right =)