People who sell dedicated servers KNOW that the clients will not use the bandwidth allocated. We have 4 servers down there in Houston with them and they what we consider average servers.

Here are our stats:

- You have used 4.53% of your allowed Bandwidth.

- You have used 2.24% of your allowed Bandwidth.

- You have used 0.06% of your allowed Bandwidth.

- You have used 5.60% of your allowed Bandwidth.


As you can see here from the four servers, none of them even use 10% of the bandwidth. To further the discrepency between bandwidth used and bandwidth allocated, the percentrages above INCLUDE incoming bandwidth, which is considered free to many providers.

What's the moral? You don't need 400GB included in the average dedicated server package and the suppliers know it. The industry for bandwidth is similar to the industry for night and weekend cellular airtime.

Drew

What's the moral? You don't need 400GB included in the average dedicated server package and the suppliers know it.


so drew, why not you start offering 400GB ded server plan? ;)

Another point is that EV1 is an ISP and rackshack gets its bandwith free, even if somebody uses 200GB of transfer.

cheers,
:beer:

<< mod edit : watch yourself... your stepping over... this is your first and final warning.. >>

Good point about them being an ISP as well. I wonder how their dial business is doing?
Drew

Originally posted by drewnick
<< mod edit : watch yourself... your stepping over... this is your first and final warning.. >>

Good point about them being an ISP as well. I wonder how their dial business is doing?
Drew

Dang, now i wanta know what he said, it must have been interesting! :D

some of us use 5-6 gigs a day though :)

Originally posted by clocker1996
some of us use 5-6 gigs a day though :)

And thats where the law of averages kicks in, don't you watch cheezy infomercials???

Actually i believe the comment that rackshack gets their bandwidth for free because their a ISP may mislead or confuse some people. That statement leads people to believe that Rackshack owns a nationwide backbone and does not at any point pay for transit associated with serving its customers bandwidth.

The truth of the matter, is simply that rackshack does in deed pay for bandwidth it provides as a ISP. Their gige lines are not free and they pay every month for it.

I believe what dektong and others were trying to explain is that since rackshack is a ISP, most of their data goes out to dial up customers which because their operation runs at full duplex, they can send a equal amount of data up and down their pipes. Since as a ISP they may only send data one way (to their customers), this leaves the same amount of bandwidth available to serve for people needing data down their pipes (say servers serving up web pages) (I know its not correct terminology but may help paint a picture for those confused.) So while they do have to pay for these "pipes" they can essentially serve data one way for free because their already serving it the other way.

That being said anyone could offer the same deal rackshack does eithern through cogent direct or through tier 1 providers if they decided to offer dialup or high speed internet connectivity. Its not a new concept or a unique one at that. But works great for rackshack as they can leverage their existing large customer base to offset the bandwidth needed to serve dedicated customers.

Many people have a problem with this philosophy because it makes one business model rely on other business models which may or may not fail. Rackshack for the time being seems to make it work.

Another point is that EV1 is an ISP and rackshack gets its bandwith free, even if somebody uses 200GB of transfer.

This is off. People are going to think that ISPs don't pay for bandwidth. If that were the case, AOL, Earthlink, etc.. could offer similar plans. RS pays less then most places because of volume. Volume in everything they do. RS still pays for those pipes and ALL transfer through them.

From http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46791&pagenumber=2

Originally posted by headsurfer
Just as an FYI, in our experience, and bear in mind that we spend over $350k per month with them overall, they would never let Yipes or Internap under price them. At the same time, they will certainly not beat Verio or Cogent.

Headsurfer was talking about Time Warner alone there. Don't know how much of that is in bandwith transit fees, but free; hardly. :rolleyes:

You have used 17.70% of your allowed Bandwidth
You have used 65.74% of your allowed Bandwidth

how is rackshack determining that?


You have used 4.58% of your allowed Bandwidth

mine never changes. it stays like that alwyas.

is it becuase of that nfsd process?

I saw some nfsd -p 45678 or something process on the box.

is that whats sending how much bw ive transfered?

cus i killed that a few days ago

I saw some nfsd -p 45678 or something process on the box.

Hmm

I might be wrong but that looks suspicious to me, surely you have no reason at all to run NFS do you?

soon as i got access to the box

it was already on

im sure others who got rackshack servers had the esame...?

I mean, i dont rely on their bw tracking in the members login thing.

I do my own, im just sayin...

I have 600GB, and only use about .9%
lol

How many servers will it take for me to buy to suck up so much bandwidth from RS, that they will be in damage or dept?

Originally posted by vigor
I have 600GB, and only use about .9%
lol

think you can run

ps -aux | grep nfs

?

and paste here

or tell me if when you first got the server you had a nfsd process?

Originally posted by Shyne
How many servers will it take for me to buy to suck up so much bandwidth from RS, that they will be in damage or dept?


eh

if your server is taking up 2megabytes/second constantly 24 hrs a day.. hehe times 5-10 other servers doing the same

..?

What I mean:

EV1 pays for the bandwith, since they are ISP the dialup/DSL subscribers will actually pays for the bandwith (and EV1 gets some profit, I believe).
Rackshack, whose parent company is EV1, won't pay for the outgoing bandwith, if they do ... they will pay less than most because EV1 pays for the bandwith.

cheers,
:beer:

Long answer: That is potential anticompetitive behaviour, son.
Short answer: Lots and lots.

Originally posted by drewnick
Long answer: That is potential anticompetitive behaviour, son.
Short answer: Lots and lots. :eek2: I'm sorry. I must have missed the question, dad.

This is a fast moving thread. I was responding to:

Originally posted by Shyne
How many servers will it take for me to buy to suck up so much bandwidth from RS, that they will be in damage or dept?


-DN

Originally posted by Shyne
How many servers will it take for me to buy to suck up so much bandwidth from RS, that they will be in damage or dept?

very easily actually... get 5 boxes from RS and run a massive pr0n operation.

:)

Originally posted by dektong
What I mean:

EV1 pays for the bandwith, since they are ISP the dialup/DSL subscribers will actually pays for the bandwith (and EV1 gets some profit, I believe).
Rackshack, whose parent company is EV1, won't pay for the outgoing bandwith, if they do ... they will pay less than most because EV1 pays for the bandwith.

cheers,
:beer:

You are a smart guy dektong, but this is still a little off. :) If you look at RSs traffic, I would bet 90% of it is from hosting. This can be verified from HS, but a few years ago, they had no gig-es, only a few DS3s. Now look.

Also, I really doubt dial up and DSL (especially) covers the cost of their pipes. Just like hosting, dial up/DSL needs equipment and support. At $10/mo, the margins are real low.

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
Also, I really doubt dial up and DSL (especially) covers the cost of their pipes. Just like hosting, dial up/DSL needs equipment and support. At $10/mo, the margins are real low.

Actually, Rackshack profit is already known to the public, read it here (http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/rac041002.cfm)

With 176000 dialup/dsl subscribers, assuming on average everybody pay just $10/mo (I'm sure the average will be more than this by a factor of 2 at least), that will be a gross profit of $1.76 millon/month. It's not enough to pay for the lines/equipments/personnels?

As I said, even if RS has to pay for the bandwith, they will pay much less that everybody here is paying; they will just pay whatever left unpaid by the dsl/dialup subscribers. And I doubt RS will pay for bandwith, assuming they do get $1.76 million/month gross income from the subscribers.

cheers,
:beer:

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
If you look at RSs traffic, I would bet 90% of it is from hosting. This can be verified from HS, but a few years ago, they had no gig-es, only a few DS3s. Now look.


Just an additional note: what you see on their bandwith chart may only be bandwith used for the hosting div of EV1 (i.e. Rackshack), and probably does not include the dialup/dsl bandwith consumption. If they are only pushing 250M (on Time Warner, for example) of bandwith, why would there be a need to have a GIGE already? At 176000 dialup/dsl subscribers, I would expect the bandwith chart to show some substantial incoming bandwith.

cheers,
:beer:

I dont know how anyone who uses dial up access now - wont they be well on their way out in 2 years?

-Brendan

Originally posted by HRBrendan
I dont know how anyone who uses dial up access now - wont they be well on their way out in 2 years?


Some of older generation (my auntie, for example) are still using dialup. Perhaprs they don't know the wonderfull world of broadband internet access since all they need is to check emaoils. :) In 2 years, prob dialup will be gone, but I don't think that will be EV1 concern since they have already offer DSL.

cheers,
:beer:

and then there's people who can't get broadband (at least not better than sat or ISDN)...

With 176000 dialup/dsl subscribers, assuming on average everybody pay just $10/mo (I'm sure the average will be more than this by a factor of 2 at least), that will be a gross profit of $1.76 millon/month. It's not enough to pay for the lines/equipments/personnels?

So you think this is enough to pay for their hosting too? Not even close. Also, not sure what your experience with dial up is, but I assure you, value adds and upsells in this arena will not give you "a factor of 2 at least".

My point is simple, don't think RS pays for there pipes and hosting operation with dial up or DSL. These services have expenses and support cost too.

Just an additional note: what you see on their bandwith chart may only be bandwith used for the hosting div of EV1 (i.e. Rackshack), and probably does not include the dialup/dsl bandwith consumption. If they are only pushing 250M (on Time Warner, for example) of bandwith, why would there be a need to have a GIGE already? At 176000 dialup/dsl subscribers, I would expect the bandwith chart to show some substantial incoming bandwith.

I highly doubt this. These graphs look like the ones I have seen at Cari.net. They show ALL traffic, just as I am sure RS does. But hopefully HS stops by and fills us in. :)

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
So you think this is enough to pay for their hosting too? Not even close. Also, not sure what your experience with dial up is, but I assure you, value adds and upsells in this arena will not give you "a factor of 2 at least".


Well, just assume EV1 gets $10/mo for each of their dialup/dsl subscribers. That's about $1.76 millon of revenue each month. And this, I think, is less that their actual revenu. But anyway, I don't think it costs them half of it to pay for their whole bandwith/connectivity. For example, somebody here has already mention here a GigE from Verio will cost you only around $95k/mo. GigE from Cogent is much less. Assume in the average they pay $100k/mo for each carrier they bring in (not all of them are GigE, some are DS3 and OC3, so I think it's a fair calculation), that's about $500k/mo for the connectivities they bring in. They still have $1.25 million/mo to spend. Let's say they have 100 tech/sales people with average payment of $5k/mo (woa, that's a lot for sales), that's another $500k/mo ... so, they still have $750k/mo to spend. Let's say for some reasons they need $750k/mo to maintain their equipments, pay their electricity bills, etc ... No money left? No ... now there comes rackshack!

Rackshack has say ... 4000 servers each paying $100/mo (lower limit)... so that's about $400k/mo revenue per month. Then they also have virtual hosting clients, say ... 10000 of them with average of $10/mo revenue for each of these virtual hosting accounts ... so that's another $100k/mo from the virtual hosting. So from rackshack, we can make and educated estimate of a $500k/mo revenue. Since the bandwith price/tech support is probably already covered by EV1, this revenue is probably actual net profit.

Well, it's not much different that what has been publicly reported on thewir.com; Rackshack net profit is about $700k/mo ... And this is just rackshack, not including EV1. Again, I believe rackshack still does not need to pay for bandwith since it's taken care by EV1. I might be wrong, but the report does show a $700k/mo net profit (not revenue) just for rackshack and it does match my calculation above assuming rackshack does not need to pay for bandwith.

Now, you do your math and show me the estimate of how much rackshack pays for bandwith and calculate its net profit and compare your calculation here, http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/rac041002.cfm . I think my thesis/claim (That rackshack does not really pay for bandwith and that the connectivity is covered by the dialup/dsl subscribers) will hold pretty close. And as I said, even if RS has to pay for bandwith, they will probably only have to pay much less than what we think, much-much less ...

cheers,
:beer:

so I just checked ev1.net ... they are running dialup special at $10/mo ... ordinarily it's $17.5/mo ... Can't find their DSL price ... so my guestimate of a factor of 2 in revenue is not really that much off ...

Anyway ... enough about this rackshack/ev1. To say that RS is losing money or not making enough money or making a marginal profit is baseless ... the numbers on the report give you the answer. They are making huge positive income; EV1 being ISP must be a big factor here.

cheers,
:beer:

BTW, just got another repot for EV1.net (Rackshack's parent company). Report date: 07 March 2002.

read it here (http://thewhir.com/marketwatch/eve030702.cfm)

For the fiscal year 2002, EV1 has a net income of $18 million.

well ... nough said.

cheers,
:beer:

on a side note, dsl isnt really very lucrative, all dsl providers pay a hefty sum to bell to use their copper, theres very little profit in providing dsl service (unfort.) As long as rackshack keeps up their dialup subscribers they will be fine, but as with any technology, dial up will be as obselete as a 2400 baud modem in a few years. Of course when this happens all rackshack has to do is raise their prices to their dedicated customer base.

guys, it only takes 2 seconds to do a little research and math -

http://www.rackshack.net/aboutus/networks.asp

http://www.ev1.net/english/about/network.asp


Identical graphs. Inbound traffic is dwarfed by outbound traffic.

I'll pluck a few GENEROUS figures out of air - 150,000 Dialup customers.... 30%(!) dialed in at any one time, using an average of 2KBps(!!) = 703Mbps inbound. The graphs state roughly 200Mbps (which IMO would be a better representation of 150,000 dialup customers). It's amazing how infrequently some people connect to the Internet, what's even more amazing (which some forget) is that modems can only download at a maximum of 6KBps! Rackshack has THREE GIG-E's! Puleeezz.

you might want to take a look at this - http://forum.ev1.net/showthread.php?threadid=371

I don't believe EV1 have launched their DSL service yet (testing?). One thing is for sure is that they would be well aware of this UNUSED inbound traffic on their FULL duplex pipes. A nice little symbiotic relationship the dedicated hosting and dsl service has.

It is a myth that EV1 supports Rackshack. Perhaps the EV1 network helped Rackshack in it's infancy though.

The "EV1" network could basically support 70,000+ dialup customers leeching @ full throttle 24/7. :D Shouldn't it read "The Awesome Rackshack Network"?

i never realized how vast ev1's coverage was on the west coast.

is ev1 slowly pushing national?

You are completely missing the point dektong. Why don't you read what you ahve posted. You are making your arguement even more invalid. Enough said.

From you -

Another point is that EV1 is an ISP and rackshack gets its bandwith free, even if somebody uses 200GB of transfer.

This is rediculous to say the least.

Just an additional note: what you see on their bandwith chart may only be bandwith used for the hosting div of EV1 (i.e. Rackshack), and probably does not include the dialup/dsl bandwith consumption. If they are only pushing 250M (on Time Warner, for example) of bandwith, why would there be a need to have a GIGE already? At 176000 dialup/dsl subscribers, I would expect the bandwith chart to show some substantial incoming bandwith.

Incorrect again:

http://www.rackshack.net/aboutus/networks.asp

http://www.ev1.net/english/about/network.asp

Same graph.

so I just checked ev1.net ... they are running dialup special at $10/mo ... ordinarily it's $17.5/mo

Not sure how long you have been following these guys, but they made their claim to fame on "Just 10 bucks!". I have never seen it over $10 in three years.


It is a myth that EV1 supports Rackshack. Perhaps the EV1 network helped Rackshack in it's infancy though.

Thank you. This is correct, verified by HS maybe. If anything, RS now pays for the dial up BW.


well ... nough said.

Lets just disagree then.

PS - You should start an ISP to pay for your bandwidth. ;)

Originally posted by pjs
It is a myth that EV1 supports Rackshack.

Perharps it is. But at 176000 subscriber, each paying $10/mo, again ... EV1 will get $1.75 millions/mo revenue, enough to pay for the connectivities EV1/RS has. It does not matter if RS is using most of the bandwith, the pipes are being paid basically by the dialup subscribers. I still believe RS does not need to pay for its bandwith, the bandwith is being paid by EV1's dialup customers.

The reports show the net profit for both RS and EV1 with EV1 having more profit than RS. I can't say that RS is losing money or having very marginal profit with its business model. The fact is they are earning a huge positive profit already, not really marginal or even losing money as some of us may think.

cheers,
:beer:

Originally posted by UmBillyCord
Not sure how long you have been following these guys, but they made their claim to fame on "Just 10 bucks!". I have never seen it over $10 in three years.


Well, then $10 it is. At 176000 subcsribers, that's still a lot of reveneu monthly.

If anything, RS now pays for the dial up BW.

You forget that EV1 net profit is bigger than RS. Why would RS be paying for EV1? What makes you think that RS pays for the dialup BW of EV1? I will argue and I will still argue, unless proven wrong, that the dialup subscribers of EV1 (no matter how much bandwith they use) are paying for all the bandwith and RS does not really need to pay for any bandwith it pushes.


PS - You should start an ISP to pay for your bandwidth. ;)

Not if you plan to have 10-20K of local susbcriber within a near future. Or if you have a strong capitals to back your losing money in the beginning. But to say that EV1 is losing money/non-profitable is absurb. Just read the reports I gave you.

cheers,
:beer:

But to say that EV1 is losing money/non-profitable is absurb. Just read the reports I gave you.

Why do you keep saying this? Show me where I said this. Please. It kills me when people make stuff up.


Look, I understand the underlying point of your argument. It is the "Value Meal Deal " idea. Get a free Coke with any value meal. Are you really getting a free coke? Or does the price for the combo cover the cost of everything? You are saying that when you add up all the money from dial up, you could pay for all the BW. Fine. However that would not cover the cost to run the ISP too and make profit. Support, equipment, etc... ISPs are not cheap to run. (Good ones anyway). Earthlink, MSN, AOL, etc... are all over $20.00/mo for a reason.

Who the hell really knows anyway other then EV1/RS. :) . I always have fun speculating and making assumptions though. It is all part of competing and figuring out how your competitors does it.

What is this thread about? It goes on and on...without going anywhere. :D

Re: RackShack: As you increase volume your cost comes down. I'm sure with the volume Rackshack does, hardware barely costs them anything (I'm talking about the servers they offer).

Bottom line is: if rackshack were selling $99@ month servers with 60 gb bandwidth it would still be a decent deal. ;)

my 2 cents

if they were selling say, duron 900/512mb ram/20gb hdd/6ips/150gb bandwidth a month for $79 it would be an even better deal.


heh.

UmBillyCord, correct me if I am wrong (which I probably am) but what Dave was saying is this;

You only pay for bandwidth in one direction with BW providers. In or out, you pay on the greater but not both. Dial-up customers use incoming bandwidth. If RS has a ton of dial-up customers that say generate 100 Mbps of incoming bandwidth, then RS pays for the 100 Mbps. Now, what about the outgoing? Say they place a bunch of web servers on their network that generates 100 Mbps of outgoing bandwidth. They will still pay for 100 Mbps of bandwidth.

You only pay for bandwidth in one direction with BW providers. In or out, you pay on the greater but not both. Dial-up customers use incoming bandwidth. If RS has a ton of dial-up customers that say generate 100 Mbps of incoming bandwidth, then RS pays for the 100 Mbps. Now, what about the outgoing? Say they place a bunch of web servers on their network that generates 100 Mbps of outgoing bandwidth. They will still pay for 100 Mbps of bandwidth.

Of course. But look at EV1/RS graphs. Do you see this happening? Not even close. It is RS traffic dominating the pipes. If EV1 did not have RS, would they need 3 gig-e's?

Rackmy -

You guys are pretty much correct with this exception. In the early days when we just had 2 OC-3s and a DS3, Rackshack made no contribution for that bandwidth. It was, in a way, free. However, our outbound now far exceeds our inbound so every new server we add does not have that advantage. The advantage we have now is the ability to buy bandwidth in large pipes and get a lower price.

** edited for spelling.. oops ****

Ok, maybe I don't get it. They are the same graphs and both show great incoming numbers?

You guys are pretty much correct with this exception. In the early daus when we just had 2 OC-3s and a DS3, Rackshack made no contribution for that bandwidth. It was, in a way, free. However, our outband now far exceeds our inbound so every new server we add does not have that advantage. The advantage we have now is the ability to buy bandwidth in large pipes and get a lower price.

I think this sums it up.

I bet you love all the people who come here (like me) and speculate about your company. :) . Afterall, it is always easier to run someone else's company.

So when is the Windows with Ensim unlimited servers planned? :)

I am still satisfied with that answer, HS :)

as I said, RS can dominate the traffic now compare to EV1, but shouldn't the dialup subscribers actually enough to pay for the connectivity? Perharps Pattrick of EV1 will be able to answer this.


Why do you keep saying this? Show me where I said this. Please. It kills me when people make stuff up.


somehow I get the idea that you are saying RS is only getting marginal profit. My apology about it.

cheers,
:beer:

doesn't this mean though that the roles have been reversed and rackshack is now floating, or at least holding EV1's hand in terms of bandwidth and connectivity???

or am i missing something? (it IS almost 1am and i'm running on no coffee for the day)

whats the big deal even if they did get the bandwidth from ev1 or if RS gets it free ? either way , one business is helping out the other one , to provide much more , and make it more profitable later . I mean figure it like this , Rs has a backup vice versa ... ev1 , without having to juggle they're both still profitable.

Webhosting has always beem teh great add on sale for diapup ISPs because of this advantage. Plus, the core network was already in place. At small scale, the advantage is REALLY there.

At larger scale, you begin to lose out on that specific advantage. However, because both business segments grow rapidly, you get the advantage of incredible buying power.

Originally posted by HRBrendan
I dont know how anyone who uses dial up access now - wont they be well on their way out in 2 years?

-Brendan

Longer, especially way things are going here in Australia.

A lot of carriers are starting to charge you if you try to take advantage of the full-duplex nature of the connectivity. In talks with a carrier earlier today, I got two very different quotes based on us telling the carrier that we are selling DSL and co-location, and based on selling just co-location.