if you buy reselling

and say they promise you 40gb space and 400gb bandwidth.

and they say no where on their website that they do NOT allow overselling.

don't they legally have to provide those 40gb space, and 400gb bandwidth, and allow you to oversell?


because you're not actually getting what you're paying for

Well on paper if I bought that I wouuld expect to be able to use it without penatly HOWEVER read the terms and conditions and see what they say

Rus

Like I said, we're asuming that the terms and conditions didn't say anything about overselling (nothing about allowing or not allowing it). Er, not just asuming, they DIDNT.

Now, can I sue this guy, or at least get a refund on the hosting I've bought from him.? (he's also kind of stolen $160 from me so I'm not very happy)

Originally posted by Conquester777
Now, can I sue this guy, or at least get a refund on the hosting I've bought from him.? (he's also kind of stolen $160 from me so I'm not very happy)

You can't sue him, and especially over $160 :eek:? A refund? Does the company have a 30 day money back guarantee? Then you can get a refund, otherwise, they don't have to grant you one.

No you cannot sue him.

You can request a refund but it depends on his refund policy if you get it or not.

He is not keeping you from using the space and bandwidith he sold you, he is just not allowing you to sell more than you bought.

Now I do not know what you paid for the account but for 40 gig and 400 gig it should be enough to cover the cost of an entire dedicated server each month.

How much did you pay for this 40GB plan?

Also, overselling is an opt-in feature on the web host's side. Your logic can also be used backwards:

"They don't say that they allow overselling on their website".

and they say no where on their website that they do NOT allow overselling.

don't they legally have to provide those 40gb space, and 400gb bandwidth, and allow you to oversell?


because you're not actually getting what you're paying for

WOW - seeing alot of this opinion lately. Just because overselling isnt allowed, doesnt mean youre not getting what youre paying for. You are purchasing the right to resell your allocated space and bandwith - I fail to see how a provider not allowing you to oversell that however you like is in anyway breaking any contractual arrangement.....

To continue on what the others have said, the early reseller programs allowed you to resell shared accounts with predetermined allotments and features. Overselling was not even in discussion. As such, whether the customer used or not what you sold him, you were not able to resell the portion he does not regularly use. Hence, historically speaking, the ability to oversell can not be seen as a default feature of reseller programs/packages.

Now, can I sue this guy, or at least get a refund on the hosting I've bought from him.? (he's also kind of stolen $160 from me so I'm not very happy)1. You can theoretically sue anyone you like, for any reason, but that doesn't mean you will win.

2. The sum is very low; most likely the time involved in sueing would value 10 times that.

3. Did he stole those money or not? If he did and you can prove it, you probably put him behind bars, if he didn't, you'll only embarass yourself.

Originally posted by Conquester777
because you're not actually getting what you're paying for

Are you not able to use 40gb of space and 400gb of data transfer? Or have you simply not got there yet?

These are big differences. If your host sold you a 40/400 plan and is only permitting you to actually use 20/200, that isn't right.

However, if you have every ability to use 40/400, but are not permitted to oversell accounts you are getting EXACTLY what you bargained for.

My personal opinion, if that was a reseller account we were selling, overselling certainly would not be allowed on that. If you need more than that, you should have your own server.

did you pay via paypal? if you did open a report, On intangible goods you are likely to win the case.
Regards,
Joe.

Originally posted by jgclifton
did you pay via paypal? if you did open a report, On intangible goods you are likely to win the case.
Regards,
Joe.
:rolleyes:
I think it's the exact opposite with PayPal....

When i rang up thats what they told me.. i always thought the same as you elix...

In a strict legal sense, if they did not specifically state that they do not allow overselling then you should get your money back.

When you signed up for a 40 GB account with 400 GB bandwidth allowance it will be considered that this is what you are buying to use. Of course it would be.

However, what some webhosts do is point to your "invented" plans, saying that you can't sell more than you pay for. While this is a widely practiced hosting model, fundamentally there are ethical concerns with this model because what the host is saying is that they are entitled to limit your space and bandwidth below what you have paid for because of useage that does not actually even exist.

Point is, look for a host that allows overselling and you will generally find these hosts have the room on their servers to allow their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay for. If they have the room available then servers are not likely to be overloaded, therefor the overselling allowed hosting model is inherintly the faster and more reliable option - but this does depend on the quality of the host and their policies on how may resellers thay allow on a server in the first place.

If they jam pack resellers onto a server they can't possibly allow you to oversell because it would bring them down. My advice is go with an "overselling allowed" hosting operation.

Jumbuck

In a strict legal sense, if they did not specifically state that they do not allow overselling then you should get your money back.

What legal sense are you referring to? We do not allow our resellers to sell space and bandwith they do not have the rights to - though, we dont explicitly state that we do not allow overselling -

However, what some webhosts do is point to your "invented" plans, saying that you can't sell more than you pay for.

Of course you cant sell more then what you paid for - otherwise you are just selling a illusion, as it doesnt necessarily exist...

While this is a widely practiced hosting model, fundamentally there are ethical concerns with this model because what the host is saying is that they are entitled to limit your space and bandwidth below what you have paid for because of useage that does not actually even exist.

The ethical concerns lie with a company selling resources they simply do not have - which is exactly what you would be trying to do.

Point is, look for a host that allows overselling and you will generally find these hosts have the room on their servers to allow their resellers to use the space and bandwidth they pay for.

You can always use the space and bandwith you pay for in an environment that is not oversold and does not allow overselling - that is the entire point...

In your scenario - If I was a client of yours, I would never get to utilize my space and bandwith - so, I purchase a 5 GB disk space account from your 2 GB reseller account (along with 10 other people) on a server that has already allocated 500 GB disk space, when the total available disk space is 80 GB.

So, essentially, you are calling me unethical because every bit of diskspace I sell you is available to use? Even more appalling is the fact you want to sell accounts based on resources you do not have and somehow consider that to be more "ethical"...

Funniest thing about this is, you would be the first one to oversell your reseller account to the maximum allowable limit, then scream bloody murder when your sites are down, or when your end users cant upload files because the hard drive is full...

You are wrong mate.

If you think its OK to charge people for space and bandwidth then turn around and not allow them to use this space and bandwidth then this is your problem, not mine.

I'm not going to enter into this argument again, its been dealt with many times in this forum in many threads.

Go here and learn buddy. Overselling - Not Overselling (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=440007)

Jumbuck

Go here and learn buddy.

I have no issue if you want to oversell or if a provider wants to oversell... However, dont fool yourself into thinking that overselling does anything positive for reliability or that not allowing overselling is unethical....

All overselling does is drive the price of hosting down based on a gamble that users will not use the resources they have purchased.. However, with the benefit of lower pricing, comes the risk of unstable service.... Heck, if we allowed overselling, we would lose the majority of our customer base, who specifically pay more for an environment where we do not allow, or practise overselling...

I wish I had read that post first, as I wouldve been made painfully aware of your inability to grasp these concepts...

- Moderators - don't blame me, I'm only answering him -

The opposite is true - Not allowing overselling drives the price down because hosts can jam way too many reseller accounts on a server and be assurred that many (if not all) won't ever get to use the space and bandwidth they pay for - because they will not be allowed to.

Overselling means there is room available for resellers to use the space and bandwidth they have paid for.

I would much prefer to be on a server that has the room then on a server so crammed with reseller accounts the bloody fuze would blow if one dared use all the space and bandwidth they paid for.

When you say "Heck, if we allowed overselling, we would lose the majority of our customer base" Then why not have fewer reseller accounts on your server so when they do use the space and bandwidth they pay for it won't effect your reliability.

This is a server management thing. There are both good and bad example of hosts that allow and don't allow overselling.

Only a suggestion.

Jumbuck

Lets say you go to the shop and buy 1 liter of water, you give ½ to one friend and ½ to another. Is the shop obliged to give you more water if your friends don't drink what you have given them ?

You buy an amount of space and bandwidth, how you distribute it is entirely up to you.

When you say "Heck, if we allowed overselling, we would lose the majority of our customer base" Then why not have fewer reseller accounts on your server so when they do use the space and bandwidth they pay for it won't effect your reliability.

You really dont get it - WE DO NOT OVERSELL AND WE DO NOT ALLOW OVERSELLING - meaning - and Ill put it in plain English for you... We simply cannot get less accounts per server.....

Furthermore, if our clients, or our reseller end user clients, try to use the space they purchased, it will actually be there...

This is a server management thing.

Bingo !!! it is a server management "thing" - and personally, we prefer to manage servers which are undersold. Less headaches for everyone, and most importantly, best performance and reliability for our clients...

- Moderators - don't blame me, I'm only answering him -

I didnt ask any questions..

non -overselling server example
1 x 80gb drive for use
80 x 1gb accounts sold
lets say each client uses 40% so 32gb of 80 gb used on full server

Overselling example
1 x 80gb drive used
200 1gb accounts sold
lets say each client uses 40% so 80gb of 80gb used on full server

I know which server I would rather be on............

The analogy of not allowing overselling is...

You pay for 1 litre of water but the shop only gives you ½ a litre because your friend may or may not want to drink more.

You jump up and down and tell the shop that you've just paid him for 1 litre but you only got ½ a litre from him. The shop says, yeh but your friend is thirty and may drink more than the other ½ so we are not going to give it to you.

Hmmm. If you pay for 1 litre of water you should be given 1 litre of water. Pretty simple stuff and there's not too many who would disagree with this one I'm afraid.

Jumbuck

Hey 247status, your example is a little one-sided, try this one and tell me you'd rather be on the non-overselleing allowed one.

Non -overselling server example
1 x 80gb drive for use
200 x 1gb accounts sold
50 x 2gb accounts sold
20 x 5 gb accounts sold
Host can comfortably afford to oversell reseller accounts himself because they are assured most (if not all) won't ever get to use the space they have paid for.

Overselling example
1 x 80gb drive used
70 1gb accounts sold
Host allows overselling so there is room on the server for resellers to use the space they paid for.

I too know which server I'd prefer to be on.

Jumbuck

Hmmm. If you pay for 1 litre of water you should be given 1 litre of water.

ok - so, lets say you bought this 1 litre of water, yet you have sold 5 litres of water. What are you going to do when the people you sold the extra 4 litres of water to come looking for their water and the well is dry?

Pretty simple stuff and there's not too many who would disagree with this one I'm afraid.

Yes, VERY simple stuff

Originally posted by Jumbuck
Hey 247status, your example is a little one-sided, try this one and tell me you'd rather be on the non-overselleing allowed one.

Non -overselling server example
1 x 80gb drive for use
200 x 1gb accounts sold
50 x 2gb accounts sold
20 x 5 gb accounts sold
Host can comfortably afford to oversell reseller accounts himself because they are assured most (if not all) won't ever get to use the space they have paid for.

Overselling example
1 x 80gb drive used
70 1gb accounts sold
Host allows overselling so there is room on the server for resellers to use the space they paid for.

I too know which server I'd prefer to be on.

Jumbuck

you are overselling on the "non overselling" server and not overselling on the "overselling server"

Originally posted by Jumbuck
Hey 247status, your example is a little one-sided, try this one and tell me you'd rather be on the non-overselleing allowed one.

Non -overselling server example
1 x 80gb drive for use
200 x 1gb accounts sold
50 x 2gb accounts sold
20 x 5 gb accounts sold
Host can comfortably afford to oversell reseller accounts himself because they are assured most (if not all) won't ever get to use the space they have paid for.

Overselling example
1 x 80gb drive used
70 1gb accounts sold
Host allows overselling so there is room on the server for resellers to use the space they paid for.

I too know which server I'd prefer to be on.

Jumbuck

Why do you assume that a host who does not allow overselling would oversell their servers as such, and one who does allow overselling would do so responsably as such?

There's several different combinations:

Host Method - Clients Allowed
---------------------------------------
No Overselling - No Overselling == good
Overselling - No Overselling == bad
Overselling - Overselling == bad
No Overselling - Overselling == iffy

For the last option, that client would need to pay me more than for a non-overselling account, because let's be honest here... who here trusts the judgement of the control panel on how to manage overselling? It's added time and effort put in.

There is no problem enabling overselling if someone wants to pitch in the extra $$ to have it looked after every so often, but if you expect your host to spend more time on your account for free, think again.

Some of us like to provide quality services, and promote quality services being grown. One of the ways we can influance the growth of this great industry is by passing on our beliefs and systems of thought to our clients.

In the end, if you want to oversell, and your host doesn't allow it, find another host. There's 22,000+ in the US alone. It can't really be so much of a hassle that suing someone over $160 looks like a good idea.

Edited to remove possible 'bad things' ;)

Originally posted by CartikaHosting
ok - so, lets say you bought this 1 litre of water, yet you have sold 5 litres of water. What are you going to do when the people you sold the extra 4 litres of water to come looking for their water and the well is dry?
Yes, VERY simple stuff

This is EXACTLY MY POINT. If I were going to use 5 litres of water I'd pay for 5 litres of water. Gawd, I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

Here it is for you, please try and follow....

I buy 1 litre I should get 1 litre.
I buy 2 litres I should get 2 litres.
I buy 5 litres I should get 5 litres.

Your argument saying I pay for 1 litre yet somehow it is OK for the shop to only give be ½ a litre is rediculous. Geez.
Originally posted by 247status
you are overselling on the "non overselling" server and not overselling on the "overselling server"
Exactly. Those that do not allow overselling I suspect will oversell themselves - jamming way too many reseller accounts. Not allowing their resellers to oversell is the only way to not bring down their servers.

Those that allow overselling will not oversell themselves - preferring to keep room available in case their resellers want to use the space and bandwidth they have paid for. My host currently follows this model and the HDD on the server is only 21% occuppied. Damn happy to be on it.

So, we are agreed.

Jumbuck

Originally posted by Jumbuck
This is EXACTLY MY POINT. If I were going to use 5 litres of water I'd pay for 5 litres of water. Gawd, I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

Here it is for you, please try and follow....

I buy 1 litre I should get 1 litre.
I buy 2 litres I should get 2 litres.
I buy 5 litres I should get 5 litres.

Your argument saying I pay for 1 litre yet somehow it is OK for the shop to only give be ½ a litre is rediculous. Geez.

Exactly. Those that do not allow overselling I suspect will oversell themselves - jamming way too many reseller accounts. Not allowing their resellers to oversell is the only way to not bring down their servers.

Those that allow overselling will not oversell themselves - preferring to keep room available in case their resellers want to use the space and bandwidth they have paid for. My host currently follows this model and the HDD on the server is only 21% occuppied. Damn happy to be on it.

So, we are agreed.

Jumbuck

Ok, let's fix your bottle of water analogy.

Say Joe sells Bob 1 bottle of water.

Bob then sells Bill and Tom both 1/2 a bottle of water.

Bill and Tom both only drink 2/3rds of their 1/2 bottle of water.

Who the heck gave you the right to take back the 1/3rd of a bottle of water that they didn't drink, and sell them both to Fred as 1/2 of a bottle of water?

You see that light? It's the end of the tunnel, things should be coming clear.

I can understand your worry that hosts who do not allow overselling will oversell themselves, and sure, some do, but some do not, as well.

If you don't trust your host to provide the resources you've purchased, then you should find anoher host. If your simply mad that they won't let you 'show more water than you purchased', then find another host. Either way, it's time to pick a new host rather than hollar that your not getting what you would like. It is up to the buyer to understand what they are purchasing, and if overselling was really that important of a feature, one would have figured you would have asked instead of assumed. :)

Originally posted by WO-Jacob
Ok, let's fix your bottle of water analogy.

Say Joe sells Bob 1 bottle of water.
OK so I have 1 litre of water.

Originally posted by WO-Jacob
Bob then sells Bill and Tom both 1/2 a bottle of water.

Bill and Tom both only drink 2/3rds of their 1/2 bottle of water.

Who the heck gave you the right to take back the 1/3rd of a bottle of water that they didn't drink, and sell them both to Fred as 1/2 of a bottle of water?
I'm taking back nothing at all. If Bill and Tom DRINK their water and I don't have enough water to give to Fred, I buy some more. This is what upgrading is all about. If I USE more space and bandwidth than I have paid for I upgrade to the next higher plan.

My hosted domains have a right to use 100% of the space and bandwidth I have paid my host to use as a reseller.

Lets end this, we don't seem to be in total disagreement but then again we do not seem to agree on the mecahnics, which, as you've quite rightly pointed out, largely depends on the management of the server.

Point is if you are happy jammed in on a server that doesn't allow their resellers to oversell then that's fine. If you are happy having the room available and ready for you to use because your've chosen a host that allows overselling then that's fine too. If you are not happy then change. Each his own.

Jumbuck

Gawd, I can't believe I'm having this conversation.

That makes 2 of us...

I can understand your worry that hosts who do not allow overselling will oversell themselves, and sure, some do, but some do not, as well.

Well said Jacob...

Originally posted by Jumbuck
Your argument saying I pay for 1 litre yet somehow it is OK for the shop to only give be ½ a litre is rediculous. Geez.
[/B]

No-one said that.

I said "Lets say you go to the shop and buy 1 liter of water, you give ½ to one friend and ½ to another. Is the shop obliged to give you more water if your friends don't drink what you have given them ?"

therefore you bought 1 liter and you got 1 liter of water, you distributed one liter. if your friends chose to drink it, keep it or whatever it is up to them, the shop is not responsible for the way they use it.

If you cannot buy in bulk and distribute in a manner that is profitable then you should consider changing your business.

Originally posted by Jumbuck
OK so I have 1 litre of water.


I'm taking back nothing at all. If Bill and Tom DRINK their water and I don't have enough water to give to Fred, I buy some more. This is what upgrading is all about. If I USE more space and bandwidth than I have paid for I upgrade to the next higher plan.

My hosted domains have a right to use 100% of the space and bandwidth I have paid my host to use as a reseller.

Lets end this, we don't seem to be in total disagreement but then again we do not seem to agree on the mecahnics, which, as you've quite rightly pointed out, largely depends on the management of the server.

Point is if you are happy jammed in on a server that doesn't allow their resellers to oversell then that's fine. If you are happy having the room available and ready for you to use because your've chosen a host that allows overselling then that's fine too. If you are not happy then change. Each his own.

Jumbuck

So are you going to refund Bill and Tom for the water that they didn't drink that you gave to Fred? :)

This thread is about a person paying a host to use 40 gb space and 400 gb bandwidth. Yet his problem is he may not be allowed to use 40 gb of space and 400 gb bandwidth. His concern is that his host is not legally obliged to provide him with what he bought.

This has everything to do with the 1 litre of water analogy.

He buys 1 litre of water, you would think the shop keeper is legally obliged to provide him with 1 litre of water to drink.

I'm sorry, but if you buy 1 litre of water (40gb space and 400gb bandwidth) then you have a fundamental right to drink 1 litre of water (use 40gb of space and 400 gb bandwidth).

Imagine this in court.......

Judge to Host: Did you sell 40 gb of space and 400 gb bandwidth to Conquester777.

Host: Yes

Judge to Host: Did you allow Conquester777 to use 40 gb of space and 400 gb bandwidth ?

Host: No. But...but... but....

Judge: Give Conquester777 his money back. Case closed.

Jumbuck,

I see the issue here is that you think you are not allowed to use the space on non-overselling hosts.

If you buy 1000mb spcace, and create 10 x 100mb accounts then each account uses 100mb you have then used you allowance. I cannot see any host having a problem with this or forbidding you to do so.

I see a problem with hosts that allow overselling, in that if every end user on the server decided they were going to use the space allocated to them they would not be able to.
Imaging the same 1000mb account and you sold 20 x 100mb accounts based on your clients using 50% (you are then happy because you have used all the space you bought and oversold it). If all your clients want to use the space you have allocated them you buy more space right ? wrong...... if every reseller on a server done this, you would end up with a server that was overloaded with data, and in some cases would require additional drives or migration of accounts to a different server to cope with this. A very bad situation for all concerned. Companies that oversell do so in the "hope" that not all clients will want to use all the resources at the same time.

I also see that you are very set in your mind (as am I :D ) so we will have to agree to disagree

These type conversations are always so interesting. :D

It would seem that most people try to fit a 'Service' business into the shoe of a 'Product' business. Of course it will not fit but such as Human nature is, putting a square peg into a round hole does present a challenge to some.

I'm trying to lighten the mood here because regardless of which Business model is used -- Allocated or Actual Use method -- it makes no difference if the Server(s) are poorly managed. And that is where most people miss the boat.

You could have a Hoster that says they do not oversell (they use the Allocated method) but they can still oversell the Server. There is no limit to the accounts that can be setup by 'root' unless and until, there is no more physical space left on the hard drive(s). That is the type of Hoster to watch out for as overloaded Servers are probably the #1 problem with (bad) Hosters.

For Clients looking for a good Hoster, best thing they can do is their research and, after getting an account, take a look at the actual usage of the hard drive, for the Server they are on. Most Control Panels will show that information and if not, the Client should be asking why?

Clients should also do some personal monitoring of Server load. If their Control Panel doesn't show it there are 3rd party scripts that will. How many people on a Server with problems have also mentioned Server load is in the double-digits?

And that's another area most people don't look at. A Server could be half-full on the hard drive but running double-digit Server load. That Server is overloaded even if the hard drive is only half used. So you see, Allocated or Actual Use method really makes no difference when compared to over-all Server management. How much hard drive space is available or how it is offered, is only the tip of the Ice Burg. So don't get too hung up on it. ;)


Some Clients looking for a Reseller account prefer to use a Hoster that offers the Actual Use method. And that's just fine. It definitely gives them more bang for their buck. If the Hoster does not specifically mention they provide the Actual Use method, then people should ask about it or keep looking for a Hoster who does offer it. There will always be many different 'types' of Hosting packages available and people just need to find the type that works for them.

Your view on it is understandable based on your reasoning.

Originally posted by 247status
I see a problem with hosts that allow overselling, in that if every end user on the server decided they were going to use the space allocated to them they would not be able to.
This line of thinking is perhaps the main reason why so many have such strong opinions against overselling. In my oipinion this line of thinking is flawed.

For example, a host with a 80 gb hard disk that allows their resellers to oversell will limit the number of reseller accounts to, say, 30 or 35 x 2 GB accounts. Invariably, hosts that allow overselling actually have the space and bandwidth vacant and ready to be utilised. Each one of these 2 GB resellers can safely use 100% of the space and bandwidth they have paid for. No, its not going to bring down the server, No its not going to mean things suddenly become unreliable.
Originally posted by 247status
...... if every reseller on a server done this, you would end up with a server that was overloaded with data, and in some cases would require additional drives or migration of accounts to a different server to cope with this. A very bad situation for all concerned. .
This would be perhaps more true of a host who does not allow overselling because he may have too many reseller accounts on the server and could not possibly allow them to oversell.

In the above case, as the server owner I would upgrade them to a bigger plan and move them to my 5 GB reseller plan server. Or, if I have less than 30 x 2 GB accounts on the server they are on I could comfortably upgrade them on the same server.

Those that do not allow overselling can't because they may have crammed way too many reseller plans on a server and can't possibly allow their resellers to use all the space and bandwidth they use becuase it just isn't there.

Those that do allow overselling will more than likely have the room sitting vacant ready for their resellers to use every bit of space and bandwidth they have paid for.

We agree to disagree but I sure as heck know which server I'd perfer to be on.

And at the end of the day its up to you to decide what one suits you.

Jumbuck

This discussion have been around some time now and you Jumbuck looks to have a differents idea then most other.

When you buy a Reseller account. What do you buy. The right to use xxx MB or the right to RESELL xxx MB.

Ok I have not been in this buissenes more than 6 months but as I follow this board a lot and I have also been talking with many companies out there.

And my beleving is that a reseller is the Right to resell xxx MB (with the right for my customers to use this) as the standard. So if you find a offer on a webpage or from a company not talking about OVERSELLING at all. Then there is a big chans that thay do NOT allow overselling. After that some companies add Overselling as a addon to be more attractive on the market and in that case they use this on there marketing at there webpage.

So the conclution. As long as they do not tell you in any mail or on there webpage that they allow overselling you shall think that they will not allow it. That is the "defacto standard" out there and I think you and me have to accept it as it is even if we do not like it. And also take it as a learn that always ask if that is important when sellecting host.

Hans