I am looking to stat to learn a programing lang. I am intrestede learning it for web development to make some web based programs,that will run mostly on linux. Should I start with php or perl? I would also like to make a orde form for clients to fill out and then it will get emailed to a sales address.

Where should I start to learn?

I'd say start doing simple stuff with PHP, but learn both languages eventually.

Where should I start to learn php?

Get a good book and start reading. :)
http://www.php.net/books.php lists some. I prefer those published by O'Reilly or Wrox.
Also, practice is very important, so you better have some project to work on.

PHP is a bit easier to learn for web applications and due to its popularlity you'll find a lot of resources on it online.

Once you know PHP you'll have little reason to learn Perl if all you're doing is making web applications.

start off with php, php.net is a great resource. Also phpfreaks is great as well. devshed is also great on various articles. Lastly if you wanted to grab a book i reccommend
web database application with php and mysql, sorry can't link websites under 5 posts. Yeah i'm new here.
thats the first book for php i bought.

if i were you, start off with php, then pick up mysql ;)

I picked up php using mostly tutorials freely available and got a mySQL reference book form our local library. Not much need for the books as they are a little pricey if you buy them new and once you understand the php -> mySQL API you can then just search for code fragment examples to learn.

Doesn't matter what one you learn first. Once you know one programming language you can easily learn the syntax of others :)

That isn't necessarily so..if someone really has no eperience in it they may "bit off more than they can chew" and put off learning a how to program.

w3schools.com

best place to learn.

Another good way to learn is just download your favorite script from host scripts or sourceforge and mess around with it. Play with functions. It's not tough to learn, just takes some messing around.

www.webmonkey.com

Thats where I started to learn PHP

Then I just taught myself. One thing that helps is if you have Firefox (and if you don't get it), right click the function search box on php.net and click keyword search. Then type php in the first and second boxes.

Then whenever you need to lookup a function, just (in the URL bar) type "php (insert function here)"

So if you wanted to see the documentation for the print() function, just type "php print".

Attached is the right-click menu.

--Brian

the best way I have found to learn a language is to have a goal. Lets say I want to make a order form, then I go out read the tutorials on how to start doing that. From there, I can expand and rewrite the code, as I learn better techniques and tricks.

Go with PHP, but if you want to do anything as far as sys administration in linux, you should learn perl sometime.

Perl is a bit of a dead language, CGI in general should be avoided, it is slow and processor intensive. PhP is becoming quite popular, so I would recommend it, but if you are really new to programming, and want to get productive quickly, you may want to try your hand at Macromedia Coldfusion.

i also used webmonkey to learn PHP. they have good tutorials on there, give it a look in

I don't think perl is a dead language, but agree you should learn php first. Perl will be hard to chew for your first language, but on a side note cpan is the best. Mod_perl, which just released version 2 for apache 2 is really impressive as well.

If you would like to try perl, you should pick up the book perl programming (think its the 2nd or 3rd edition that is the lastest version). As for mod_perl, practical mod_perl is a great reference, its one huge book though :)

Originally posted by Tommar
Perl is a bit of a dead language, CGI in general should be avoided, it is slow and processor intensive. PhP is becoming quite popular, so I would recommend it, but if you are really new to programming, and want to get productive quickly, you may want to try your hand at Macromedia Coldfusion.

Perl is hardly dead, and what does Perl have to do with CGI?

Perl is hardly dead, and what does Perl have to do with CGI?

The original question was about learning a web development language, Perl uses CGI in a web environment, CGI is slow and resource intensive thus it is used only occasionaly to execute basic form mail scripts. I am very aware of Perl's uses in linux, but I didn't see any mention of that in the original post.

Originally posted by Tommar
The original question was about learning a web development language, Perl uses CGI in a web environment, CGI is slow and resource intensive thus it is used only occasionaly to execute basic form mail scripts. I am very aware of Perl's uses in linux, but I didn't see any mention of that in the original post.

Perl can use mod_perl, fastCGI, or be embedded other ways in the httpd process if you're worried about CGI overhead (which isn't *that* bad when it comes down to it). PHP is exactly the same, just fyi. PHP can run in a module form (mod_php), in CGI (yep, just like Perl), or cli (command line interface), just like Perl. It's absolutely no different, and it all depends on the environment you choose to run it in. Perl in no way uses the "CGI environment" anymore than PHP does, unless you want to use it in that particular environment.

The environment has nothing to do with the language, and _thus_ CGI has nothing to do with the original poster's question. It's ludicrous to claim Perl is only used for basic form mail scripts or used "occasionally". Clearly, you have no idea what you're talking about (no offense). Finally, I'm unsure what you mean about how you're aware "Perl's uses in Linux". Linux wasn't mentioned, and regardless, Perl runs on everything from Linux and FreeBSD, Solaris, Windows and AIX, to Atari and Commodore. Just repeating negative things you "hear" about a language that are not true, is annoying, so I felt compelled to reply.

If you are on shared hosting you are not going to have mod_perl available, where as in general you do have mod_php.

But usually when the difference in performance between CGI and mod_perl/mod_php becomes an issue ou've probably out grown shared hosting anyways.


Perl is a bit of a dead language,

Perl is dying on the web (maybe in general too? I dont' know), but Tim_Greer wants to cling to what he knows so let him.

Thank you Froggy, you hit the nail on the head.

Originally posted by Froggy
If you are on shared hosting you are not going to have mod_perl available, where as in general you do have mod_php.


There are more options than mod_perl and, in fact, more and more web hosts run PHP in the CGI environment for better security and process/resource control reasons anyway.


But usually when the difference in performance between CGI and mod_perl/mod_php becomes an issue ou've probably out grown shared hosting anyways.


I agree with that. Basically, the only time this slight overhead will affect performance, is if you have so many hits that your site should be on its own server anyway, and not a shared server environment. Often, it comes down to good code and an efficient script making all the difference--this is more often a problem than the environment.


Perl is dying on the web (maybe in general too? I dont' know), but Tim_Greer wants to cling to what he knows so let him.

Froggy has a problem with Perl, we're discussed this in other threads already, there's no reason to repeat it here (if you are curious, use the search feature--this needn't be repeated here). He can claim I'm in denial all he likes, but Perl is around and will be around and used by millions of people for many more years to come. Regardless, if someone doesn't want to use it, they don't have to (I don't mind, I don't imagine why anyone else would).

Tim, I wasn't suggesting that Perl is no longer used, it is, just as I'm sure Cobol and ForTran are still floating around on some legacy systems, I just don't think that encouraging a newbie programmer to start with these languages is a good idea. Perl is an old procedural language, it has an ugly syntax, and can be cumbersome for new and old programmers alike.

If levidjkt really wants to learn a *real* programming language I would recommend Java, you can develop Web Pages and Desktop apps (slow apps, but apps none the less), web services, components that can be used in conjunction with other languages, and it's syntax is similar to C, C++, and C# and would allow for a smoother transition to OOP and it's respective languages.

Originally posted by Tommar
Tim, I wasn't suggesting that Perl is no longer used, it is, just as I'm sure Cobol and ForTran are still floating around on some legacy systems, I just don't think that encouraging a newbie programmer to start with these languages is a good idea. Perl is an old procedural language, it has an ugly syntax, and can be cumbersome for new and old programmers alike.


With all due respect, this is a stupid argument to make. Perl isn't dying, isn't fading away and isn't ancient. Comparing it to the likes of Cobol just says how ignorant or biased you are. There's nothing wrong with either PHP or Perl, they are both fine choices. Both are used by millions of people on hundreds of thousands of web servers every day and continue to be. Further, they both will be in the future.


If levidjkt really wants to learn a *real* programming language I would recommend Java, you can develop Web Pages and Desktop apps (slow apps, but apps none the less), web services, components that can be used in conjunction with other languages, and it's syntax is similar to C, C++, and C# and would allow for a smoother transition to OOP and it's respective languages.

If you're not going to discuss this rationally, then why bother posting, just to let others know your personal biased feelings that are untrue? Perl is very much a "real" programming language. Real programmers don't find themselves talking nonsense/untruths about it. I recall when PHP was the hype a few years ago and the newbies were going on about how Perl is slow and dead, because they didn't know any better. Don't buy into the hype, it doesn't make you look smart when you argue against a language that is very much alive and well used. The poster knew this, even, and they were asking a serious question in their view, so don't go talking about nonsense about how it's not even a "real" language.

I will fully concede that C or C++ is a good choice overall, for the best foundation. I do not believe Java is, however, nor C#. They want to do web development, by their own post about it. I think C is best for a good foundation and understanding. You can continue to use that for anything. You can better understand more about other languages. Maybe if you had, you'd understand that Perl is a real language and is widely used for a reason, and will continue to be. Take your witch hunt language biases to another thread.

This poster asked a legitimate question. There's no reason to start going off with non factual and personal propaganda by making such bogus claims as Perl isn't worth learning, using or is somehow "pretty much dead" or to compare it to the likes of Cobol and its state of "deadness", because that's ridiculous. I'm sure even the poster knows the facts. How about you try and keep it on topic, rather than just posting about how much you don't like a specific language or to start going on about things like C#. The question was Perl or PHP. The answer is that either are fine. Foolish claims like "Don't bother with Perl because it's not a real language or its dying" is an absurd response. It's getting old trying to correct the Perl bashing trolls here. If you aren't sure, become educated about it.

Originally posted by Tommar
Tim, I wasn't suggesting that Perl is no longer used, it is, just as I'm sure Cobol and ForTran are still floating around on some legacy systems, I just don't think that encouraging a newbie programmer to start with these languages is a good idea. Perl is an old procedural language, it has an ugly syntax, and can be cumbersome for new and old programmers alike.

If levidjkt really wants to learn a *real* programming language I would recommend Java, you can develop Web Pages and Desktop apps (slow apps, but apps none the less), web services, components that can be used in conjunction with other languages, and it's syntax is similar to C, C++, and C# and would allow for a smoother transition to OOP and it's respective languages.

Hmm
Perl is an old procedural language, it has an ugly syntax

<?php
for($i = 0; $i <= 10; $i++){
print $i . "\n";
}
?>
and in Perl
#!/usr/bin/perl
for($i = 0; $i <= 10; $i++){
print $i . "\n";
}


I could go on ;)

Froggy has a problem with Perl,


No, I just say its in decline on the web (but no reason to repeat this stuff)


I would recommend Java, you can develop Web Pages and Desktop apps (slow apps, but apps none the less)


Java applications are not much slower than C/C++ applications this is an old rumor that just isn't true anymore. Java's performance keeps getting closer to machine compiled languages like C++. I think one reason that keeps this rumor alive is that Java apps load slower than ones in C++, this is still the case. But this is because Java apps having to uncompress jars etc. Once open the difference is usally negligible.

Java is fairly useless on the web unless you have a dedicated server on hand. There really is no good way to run java in shared environments. This could be changed but nobody at sun cares and nobody is doing anything about it. Altough I think its great for applications, particularly ones that need to run cross-platform.

Originally posted by fastduke
Hmm


<?php
for($i = 0; $i <= 10; $i++){
print $i . "\n";
}
?>
and in Perl
#!/usr/bin/perl
for($i = 0; $i <= 10; $i++){
print $i . "\n";
}


I could go on ;)

Of course, there's dozens of ways to do this. Ironically, a lot of the same functions in C share the same principals as Perl, and PHP. I think he's just confused, or it's Froggy as another username so someone can finally agree wiht his untrue claims, because he hates Perl just so, so much. :-)

Originally posted by Froggy
No, I just say its in decline on the web (but no reason to repeat this stuff)



Whatever you say. I agree though, let's not repeat that debate here. I seriously doubt we care what each other has to say.

I could go on


Yes you could and once you get beyond trivial examples and look at actual Perl code basis you'd find a lot of very tersely writen Perl code that is hard to read, particularly for people that don't look at Perl code every day.
But from my experience this is something the Perl people like, its not good for beginners though.

I think he's just confused, or it's Froggy as another username so someone can finally agree wiht his untrue claims, because he hates Perl just so, so much. :-)


Seriously....let it go. Not once did I say I "hate perl". I said one thing about it, this hardly implies I hate perl etc.


But about Syntax in general. Its a matter of TASTE. Saying he is "confused" etc is silly, some people find Perl code ugly (I certainly do). Some people find C++ code ugly etc...these are all matters of taste.

Originally posted by Froggy
Yes you could and once you get beyond trivial examples and look at actual Perl code basis you'd find a lot of very tersely writen Perl code that is hard to read, particularly for people that don't look at Perl code every day.
But from my experience this is something the Perl people like, its not good for beginners though.

And, to be fair, people can code obfuscated code in any language, really. So, it's pretty easy to compare bad code and use that as an example of why Perl is bad, or PHP, or C, or... Good Perl code, is easy to follow as much as good PHP or good C, or good any code in any language. There's nothing in Perl or PHP that makes code more difficult to read or makes the coder more likely to make it more difficult to read. That's not a language specific problem in this case and has no relevance to what a beginning coder may or may not find as an obstacle in their learning of any specific language. Didn't you just post earlier that you were _only_ saying that you think Perl is on the decline?

Tim_Greer has a point, our argument is out of scope and neither side really cares about the other. But, I do care about the original poster, and I don't want to se him/her become your typical old school programmer hunched over their keyboard defending C++ on some forum somewhere when everyone else is using F++, and then wondering why their 40 years old and still living in mommy's basement. The future of development is constantly evolving and I just don't think there is a place for programmers who are unwilling (or unable) to adapt.

Originally posted by Froggy
Yes you could and once you get beyond trivial examples and look at actual Perl code basis you'd find a lot of very tersely writen Perl code that is hard to read, particularly for people that don't look at Perl code every day.
But from my experience this is something the Perl people like, its not good for beginners though.


Oh yeah, sorry I forgot.

Correction:
All languages are easy to read except perl. So now the OP can safely choose PHP

Done

:rofl:

Originally posted by Froggy
Seriously....let it go.


Here are here, opposing what I say. I'm not dwelling on anything, so there's nothing to let go. No skin off my nose whatsoever. If you're worked up about it, I don't know what to say, but if you think I am you can rest knowing it's not the case here.


Not once did I say I "hate perl".


No, you didn't say "I hate Perl".


I said one thing about it, this hardly implies I hate perl etc.


You said more than one thing about it, and there's an entire thread that examples and proves that, and if anyone cares, they can use the search feature and read it themselves.


But about Syntax in general. Its a matter of TASTE. Saying he is "confused" etc is silly, some people find Perl code ugly (I certainly do). Some people find C++ code ugly etc...these are all matters of taste.

I wouldn't disagree at all with the fact that there's a matter of taste regarding syntax, I never have. However, that wasn't what was being discussed, and the poster that mentioned this is confused about other things to be making such claims. I did not say any such thing in response to their choice of "syntax". Feel free to read the posts again if you aren't sure (what I was speaking of or responding to). Of course, you don't have to...

Originally posted by Tommar
Tim_Greer has a point, our argument is out of scope and neither side really cares about the other. But, I do care about the original poster, and I don't want to se him/her become your typical old school programmer hunched over their keyboard defending C++ on some forum somewhere when everyone else is using F++, and then wondering why their 40 years old and still living in mommy's basement. The future of development is constantly evolving and I just don't think there is a place for programmers who are unwilling (or unable) to adapt.

Brilliant conclusion, from a trolling newbie. No offense, but I can only assume you are both a newbie and a troll, with you speaking so many inaccurate and grossly misguided claims (because they absolutely have no basis). If you don't like Perl, fine, I don't care. But to claim Perl is a waste to learn because it's ancient and it's not up with modern languages, is nothing more than moronic. Nice touch on the living in their mother's basement to spice up your side of this debate, I'm sure that's a big help and is a great deterrent from the facts for the original poster.

Now, back to reality, the poster's question was legitimate and both are used by an incredible amount of people, regardless of what some inept person wants to claim for absolutely no factual or rational reason. Barring the newest hype about ruby, nothing has changed in the programming world regarding languages. PHP and Perl are no less and no more popular and useful than they were both 5 years ago. Both are literally used by millions and millions of people.

Both are languages that are alive and constantly being worked on, improving and evolving--and neither are going anywhere. Only an utter fool would claim that either PHP or Perl are going away or are not worth learning, or would have the ignorant audacity to try and accuse people of being unwilling (or unable) to adapt, because they don't agree with your baseless claims. Leave it to a troll to do exactly what you've done. That would explain your claims, not because you even believe them yourself. The only thing that is a genuine waste of time to put any effort into, is responding to your continual lies and petty attempts to get a rise out of real programmers that are genuinely wanting to help the poster make an educated decision. I can only conclude that you're new at WHT, because all the real programming news groups dropped all your posts from trolling. I might add, there's probably no place for self-proclaimed programmers that can't accept the facts about the languages that DO exist, ARE poplular and ARE evolving. Why you are going so far out of your way to try and claim otherwise, is simply nothing more than trolling. Maybe you can get lost.

Correction:
All languages are easy to read except perl. So now the OP can safely choose PHP

err...huh? Saying that Perl has code that is "hard to read" doesn't imply other languages don't suffer from a similar problem. But in this case PHP code tends to be easier to read for people that are starting


Didn't you just post earlier that you were _only_ saying that you think Perl is on the decline?

Yes I did, that is that is the only factual claim I'm making about Perl (of course you dn't think its a "fact"...but its not a matter of taste...the other thing I said was..a mere matter of taste, i.e. that its syntax is ugly).

And I really don't know how a Perl coder could say with a straight face that Perl code doesn't tend to be very terse. But sure you can write ugly code in any language, but Perl gives you extra syntaxic sugar to make it that much easier to write really terse hard to read code (but again...perl people tend to love this stuff)

But anyhow the thread is about php vs perl as a first language to learn for the web, I contend that PHP is better suited for beginners.

Yes I did, that is that is the only factual claim I'm making about Perl


Well, not really, but okay.


(of course you dn't think its a "fact"...


No, I don't. I don't care if you disagree, but you did so claiming you have proof, and demanded others prove otherwise. We've been through all that, the article you referenced for proof also didn't provide anything but a claim--and a lot of other articles claim otherwise. So, no, I officially don't think it's a fact, and I'm not sure how you do either. You claimed to read other information after the article, but either of us could pull up any biased article, there's no way to prove this.


but its not a matter of taste...


No, it certainly isn't a matter of taste.


the other thing I said was..a mere matter of taste, i.e. that its syntax is ugly).


That's fine with me, I don't doubt you dislike the syntax of Perl. Indeed, that is a matter of taste. Sometimes with different languages, it's also a matter of comprehension. Some people better take to and understand the different language syntaxes over another.


And I really don't know how a Perl coder could say with a straight face that Perl code doesn't tend to be very terse.


Because they perhaps understand it better than you?


But sure you can write ugly code in any language, but Perl gives you extra syntaxic sugar to make it that much easier to write really terse hard to read code (but again...perl people tend to love this stuff)


It's all relevant. There's nothing making you write ugly code in any language. I'd wager if you read some nice, clean code, you'd not have the opinion you do, but maybe you still would. I don't care either way, but for the record, any good coder will write clean code regardless if they love Perl or not. Your quips about things like "perl people seem to love this stuff" is nonsense. Why say such a thing? Irrelevant flame-bait is all it is, why do that?


But anyhow the thread is about php vs perl as a first language to learn for the web, I contend that PHP is better suited for beginners.

Fair point, I disagree, I think they are both about equal, but other's might disagree, which is why I recommend the poster check into both and see which one makes more sense and seems more natural to them.

But, I do care about the original poster, and I don't want to se him/her become your typical old school programmer hunched over their keyboard defending C++ on some forum somewhere when everyone else is using F++, and then wondering why their 40 years old and still living in mommy's basement. The future of development is constantly evolving and I just don't think there is a place for programmers who are unwilling (or unable) to adapt.


That is a decent point in general... (I find Tim's response to it extremely ironic though). Often programmers cling to what they know...and as a result they end up at the umemployment office. Although I don't think this is the case for Perl programmers. They may not be as highly paid as people doing more recent technologies, but there is still a big need for them.

Whoa Tim, I think someone need to open a window in that basement of theirs.

I was NOT saying that perl is not worth learning and supporting but I think it should be done out of necessity. Give me one reason why some new programmer would want to start with Perl and not a newer language. I heard all these same arguments when I was making the move from C to C++, the endless debates about why C is so much better than C++ and now look, C++ is almost always better suited for modern development than C and has since spawned advances in programming that just couldn't have been made without it. I don't know where you get off saying that programming has not evolved in recent years, please provide some evidence of this as I am very curious.

Originally posted by Froggy
That is a decent point in general... (I find Tim's response to it extremely ironic though). Often programmers cling to what they know...and as a result they end up at the umemployment office. Although I don't think this is the case for Perl programmers. They may not be as highly paid as people doing more recent technologies, but there is still a big need for them.

In fact, it's not a decent or remotely reasonable point. His claim is that Perl is so dated, that people whom use it or defend it, are unable to adapt. Or were not not able to read into it exactly how and what he said, since he was specifically speaking of Perl? This isn't that difficult to figure out, you know. Anyway, there's nothing ironic about it at all. Any good programmer will know and use the appropriate languages and be familiar with the one's in demand. Perl is one of those languages, as is PHP, depending on the job and company. The same for C, C++, etc.

Perhaps some programmers "cling" to what they know, but that isn't true of all programmers, and isn't more accurate to claim about Perl programmers, nor in light of the inaccurate claim that it's a relevant claim by simply claiming Perl is dead. Not a very intelligent claim to make based on personal feelings that are proved untrue by the simple fact of the use of Perl and how it evolves constantly. And, to suggest they are not as highly paid as programmers in other languages isn't any better or true, if that is what you're suggesting now. Perl is a "recent technology" and is very much in demand, in fact.

Anyway, regardless of the language a programmer likes, finds useful, is able to *admit* or "recognize* is still very much useful and valuable, if a language was actually fading away, they'd be able to adapt or not. This poster made it sound like Perl programmers *were* those very people, which is utter BS, and you know it. Hence, that was hardly a "fair point" and there's nothing ironic about any of this, other than the tired and overdone language debate not making any points for either side, nor winning anyone new to a good language. I've been open about it, and said they are both fine choices.

Unlike others, I am realistic about it and don't come here to troll my own biased opinions as if they are facts (when they aren't). This
Tommar character says in another thread that he's opening up a web host (yikes). Okay, I'd be really interested if it's a *nix based hosting service and how he thinks his clients will react when he says "We don't offer Perl, it's pretty much dead" and how many he loses. Unless he provides it due to the demand or potential clients that will want/need it, and what does that say? Either way, it says a lot.

We are Windows based and we do offer Perl, and yes I program in Perl along with a half a dozen other languages as well. I am simply stating that beginning a career in programming with Perl is ultimately a losing proposition, and I still have yet to see any proof from your side to prove otherwise.

Originally posted by Tommar
Whoa Tim, I think someone need to open a window in that basement of theirs.


yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it already. I don't agree with you, so not only am I an "ancient Perl coder in denial", but I also am not successful and live in my mother's basement. That's some top class trolling there... if this were a primary school playground.


I was NOT saying that perl is not worth learning


*Yes*, you did.


and supporting but I think it should be done out of necessity.


Uh huh... right. let's see if you offer it on your new web host. If you do, that says it all. If you don't, then you'll lose a lot of potential clients.


Give me one reason why some new programmer would want to start with Perl and not a newer language.


Because it's a great language and can do pretty much anything anyone wants. Because in comparison to PHP, which is the topic "PHP or Perl", it offers all the same features and more. Even without saying "more", the fact it offers and does everything PHP does, should make it a good choice, or just as good. What "newer" language are you even talking about? What out there is really that much newer than PHP? Hmm? Ruby's been around since the early 90's, and PHP's been around since the mid-ish 90's. Nothing we're talking about here is really much newer than Perl. Even so, Perl is always being improved and developed. Ever heard of Perl 6? What do you think is being developed very actively? I don't get it, what do you think is so ancient about Perl? Just because Perl was one of the few choices out before and now there's more in addition to it, you think that means it's not used a lot anymore, or it isn't offering features to do things just as much as any other language that's also being developed? Tell me, WHAT new language are you talking about here? Is Java supposed to be "new"? What the hell!? All of these have been around for a _long time_ and nothing is "newer" or offering things that Perl can't do! With that in mind, you seriously don't think your inflammatory and false claims about Perl are trolling????



I heard all these same arguments when I was making the move from C to C++, the endless debates about why C is so much better than C++ and now look, C++ is almost always better suited for modern development than C and has since spawned advances in programming that just couldn't have been made without it.


You're just plain certifiably insane. C is hugely used, still. Take a look at what most of Linux and FreeBSD is coded in! Besides, the debate between C and C++ is a far cry different. Your nonsense claims are a liken to saying that C is pretty much dead, you should only bother learning C++.


I don't know where you get off saying that programming has not evolved in recent years, please provide some evidence of this as I am very curious.

I'd like for YOU to show ME where I EVER said that programming HASN'T evolved! I said that Perl has, I said PHP has, I said many of the languages have! Good grief, pay attention, man! I said Perl is evolving just as much as PHP, ruby or Java, or Python, or... well, you name it. YOU said Perl is pretty much dead and were going on about how programmer's can't adapt or aren't able to, as if a Perl programmer is one of those people. Perl is hugely used and will continue to be. If it does ever start to die out and not evolve or continue to be developed, then the Perl programmers will move onto another language they code in, or move to another one that's good. C and C++ are always going to be very useful, for example. If Perl dies off, that would pretty much be the end of a few other popular languages at that time, too. However, that's not happening. Perl and PHP are here to stay, and the fact they've been used for so long and remain used by so many, prove this fact. Just making stupid claims without any basis for it, is not going to impress anyone.

Barring the newest hype about ruby, nothing has changed in the programming world regarding languages.

Originally posted by Tommar
We are Windows based


Seeing how not many Windows web hosts have a ton of clients looking to use Perl, I guess I see why you're so ignorant about it.


and we do offer Perl,


And that says it all, really. So much for it "pretty much being dead".


and yes I program in Perl


Yeah, sure you do. Now, what *you* consider to be "Perl programming" is another matter. The things you claim in this thread lead me to the obvious conclusion that you're not much of a Perl programmer, if you are one at all.


along with a half a dozen other languages as well.


MMmmmm Hmmm. Sorry, I don't buy it. The bold claims you make that are so grossly untrue and inflammatory lead me to not believe this. Any programmer that has much of an understanding of any one or two decent languages knows Perl's a good language. Not that they will like it or like it's syntax, but they wouldn't claim it's dead or a waste of time to learn. Honestly, they just wouldn't if they were a programmer and knew anything much about Perl in addition. I'm not saying that to be "mean", I just never came across one decent programmer that would make such claims, unless they admitted they didn't know (and thus, really have no right to make such claims).


I am simply stating that beginning a career in programming with Perl is ultimately a losing proposition, and I still have yet to see any proof from your side to prove otherwise.

I don't debate that is how YOU feel. Of course, I've not seen any proof from you either. What is it with you? I have to prove something against what YOU feel, TO YOU!? Yet, you don't feel you actually have to prove anything to me to SUPPORT what YOU feel? Does that seem reasonable or logical to you? Why are we even debating this? If you aren't sure, it's up to YOU to do YOUR homework. Why don't YOU look into it and check the Perl community, see how many people on how many web servers use it (since this was originally about using Perl for web related scripts)? Oh, I know why, because even you admitted yourself, even being a Windows based host, surely most likely primarily offering ASP, C#/.NET, etc. even offer Perl. Interesting... Do you just want me to justify yourself to you, or what? I don't see the point to this.

I am getting tired of responding to counter your bogus claims. You want proof from me to oppose what you claim, but you feel comfortable not offering proof to support your claim. I've said above how anyone reading this thread can get the proof--just go out there and look. The Perl community is alive and well and thriving and has been for more than a decade and then some. I really don't care what you feel, like or dislike, I really don't. However, don't come into a thread and tell a poster asking a legitimate question bogus claims because you're too ignorant to know better. It's fine if you don't know, but don't use your lack of knowledge to try and deter someone from a fine programming language, because you have some personal vendetta against it, all without a basis.

That said, I am tired of responding to you, any real programmer or anyone seriously considering any of these languages will surely be intelligent enough to see the facts by now (meaning, they won't just take your biased word for it) or look for themselves if they aren't sure and they can make their own decision. I'm done with you. I think you're being ridiculous and I seriously question any credibility you claim to have or think you have, given what you're said in this thread alone. Not a very good impression (though I'm sure you think the same about me for simply not agreeing with you). So be it, I'm done with you--feel free to believe what you want.

Originally posted by Tommar
Barring the newest hype about ruby, nothing has changed in the programming world regarding languages.



Heh. I couldn't resist. Is that really the best you can do? So, this was all about how much more evolved ruby is now? Perl isn't worth bothering with now, because of ruby? Wow, this is ridiculous. If that's what you want to go with, fine. Read my post again, newbie, ruby has been around since the early 90's--not a "new" language and it's not "changing the face of programming" to make PHP or Perl or anything else worthless. This is why I'm done with this post. You should note the use of the phrase "the newest hype about ruby", if you're going to try and use my example. I only used it as an example of why someone might be bringing up a debate. Poorly played, you lose.

Yes Tim Perl is great blah blah blah. Also I found it ironic because you are pretty much a Perl troll.

But as I said before let it go. The post should be talking about the pros and cons of using Perl vs PHP as a first language (on the web). As I said PHP seems better for this, here are my reasons:

1. There are more resources available for php on the web, and its easier to find help.

2. PHP's syntax is a bit more user friendly and a bit more forgiving.

3. PHP has better support for OO programming (this mainly applies to PHP5 though).

I think Perl has one benefit:

1. Perl has a much larger library of code and most shared hosts don't mind installing Perl modules, so you pretty much can do anything. Where as with PHP there is less and in many cases you need to add an extension or add a package to pear, most hosts are not willing to change this.(There is a way of getting around the Pear issue by installing pear locally on your account).

Originally posted by Froggy
Yes Tim Perl is great blah blah blah.


Yes "Froggy", Perl sucks and is dead, blah blah blah (You see, this isn't helping).


Also I found it ironic because you are pretty much a Perl troll.


Yeah, the fact someone comes in to say Perl isn't worth using or learning based on nothing more than a biased claim and me responding to them, most certainly shows that I AM the troll. Right.


But as I said before let it go.


Let it go, so you're free to post whatever you want to the contrary without any opposition. Hey, you brought (and keep bringing) the other thread issues up here, I just responded to the points you made about it in reply to you here when you mentioned them here. I'm not sure how you think that means I am not letting it go. May I inquire as to why you don't just let it go? Honestly, I'm just curious.


The post should be talking about the pros and cons of using Perl vs PHP as a first language (on the web). As I said PHP seems better for this, here are my reasons:


Yes, that is what it was supposed to be about. I suppose it's impossible when a language war happens.


1. There are more resources available for php on the web, and its easier to find help.


A fair point, if true. There's just as many resources for Perl on the web as for PHP and just as easy to find help. The poster/user could find out themselves quickly enough.


2. PHP's syntax is a bit more user friendly and a bit more forgiving.


Well, that's a matter of opinion. I don't agree with this. This would be up to the poster/user to find, don't you agree?


3. PHP has better support for OO programming (this mainly applies to PHP5 though).


Well, perl 5.x has decent support, but yes, Perl 6 is basically going to change all of that when it comes to OO.

Honestly, I wasn't just posting in response above to disagree with your points, okay (I'm being serious), but just responding to them in your reply to me (I want to be clear about that). I'm not saying one might not be better for someone than the other, and I'm not saying one mightnot be better suited than the other or that they both might not have pros or cons to some people. I hope that's clear enough. I made the other points in response to the other poster that was bashing Perl.


I think Perl has one benefit:

1. Perl has a much larger library of code and most shared hosts don't mind installing Perl modules, so you pretty much can do anything. Where as with PHP there is less and in many cases you need to add an extension or add a package to pear, most hosts are not willing to change this.(There is a way of getting around the Pear issue by installing pear locally on your account).

Thank you for the on topic, and post with fair points.

You're right Tim, this guy should start with Perl. Good luck levidjkt.

Well, that's a matter of opinion. I don't agree with this. This would be up to the poster/user to find, don't you agree?


Utlimately sure its up to the user. But not everyone has the time to spend learning many languages. On average I think PHP is easier to learn for people, particularly for those that have no background in other languages. I think its popularity is evidence that this is true. But I really have no study that shows that "PHP is easier to learn fro beginners than Perl", but from talking to people that are just starting this is the impression I get.

I haven't looked into Perl 6 much. I hear people joking about it never coming out, is there planed release date?

I can't say, I'm not a developer on Perl 6, and I don't keep up on it (Perl 6). I reviewed a book for a publisher for Perl 6, but that's about as far as I've gotten into it other than reading about things like Parrot. Anyway, PHP might indeed be easier for this poster to learn, I don't disagree with that (I never have). If their host (or system) is set up to only use CGI, too, it might be easier than learning about permissions, as easy as that is, it would perhaps be a step they could skip (though I don't recommend it, especially since permissions are still relevant to PHP), so I'm not sure what's easier over the two when it comes down to it, but there might be something that appeals to the beginner. I still recommend they try either, or both and within a week or less they should find out which one they take to/understand better. For the record, I never said they should learn Perl over PHP, I only stated they should learn either one if they want (there's no reason not to learn either of the two, or both).