http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/04/php_evans/

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/04/evans_survey/

I used to be on an EDC panel and participated in their online surveys. It was a chore filling them out and I suspect that there is quite a turnover in participants who which may affect year-to-year variances.

I thought perl has been in decline for awhile now. But that is interesting that PHP may also be on the decline. Its no wonder they are both really bad languages to work with in a project of any decent size.

For some reason, I suspect this is a sneaky Microsoft tactic to make people think: I guess I should start learning .NET!

PHP is not in decline. It's perfect for most web projects.

Its perfect for web projects that need to run on a 15 buck a month hosting account. I can't think of one reason to use it for a web application that isn't going to be running on shared hosting though.

I'd say Perl is in decline but not PHP. If anything I'd say PHP was getting more popular.

I agree to mouldy. Perl has declined significantly. But php's growing everyday. PHP was titled the 'programming language' of the year 2004. And big companies like Orcale, IBM etc putting interest in PHP, i dont think PHP's declining

To the people that say php is not in decline did you actually read the articles? Yes IBM, Orcale got interested in PHP, but it appears at least what these articles say is since than php is in decline. Now, does anybody have any actual data to show that php is not in decline?

PHP is real popular with script kiddies...but that says little about how popular it is in the business world. Its that php is declining in the business world...

And for the love of god...don't mention yahoo (I really wish the peopel that mentioned yahoo using php..would actually read why they did....over say java or microsoft technologies).

Yahoo uses PHP for templating sutff I suppose? not sure.

http://www.php.net/usage.php
This might be helpful

Froggy: why do you think PHP is for kids? Have you ever worked as a programmer?

Nearly all companies (who I've worked for) that were not run by totally clueless people used PHP for their web projects.

There is very rarely a need to use Java or .NET. It just complicates things. PHP keeps everything simple.

Well its not that its for kids its for people with not much knowledge of CS in general it seems, usually this ends up being kids. Yes I've worked as a programmer. I've worked on projects in java, c/c++ and ML.

Yes thats right only clueless companies don't use php for their web projects. Python with mod_python? For the clueless!! mod_perl for the clueless too! And..lets not forget those idiots using java and .net. And...gee those people that make their own apache modules in C too..

Php does keep some things simple...and this is exactly why it can be very bad to use at times. I simply cannot see how a large php project can be managed well with php, maybe someone has a system out there for doing it..but its not obvious. And hence companies working on large web projects just dont' use it, they use better technologies like java servlets or EJB. For example php has no real notion of a package or module. I find it odd that in php 5 they ripped off much of java's OO design, but left out something so important.

Anyhow php 4 was so poorly designed its absolutely amazing that it got so popular, but it was popular with script kiddies. At least php 5 gets rid of a lot of the things that were ridiculous, now the language is just lacking in some things that would make it easy to use in large projects. Its too bad you can't heavly use php 5s new OO features without getting killed with performance problems though = )

You sound quite angry :)

PHP is good. You're totally overreacting.

As I said, in my experience, the companies I've worked for who used Java only did so because they had the same opinion as you. But we could have gotten the projects done, for half the price, in half the time, had we used PHP.

I'm not angry at all. Do you have any evidence that indicates that it actually takes half the time and price to make a web application in php rather than say java. Mind you I'm talking about web applications of a decent size here not some web apps that uses 10 or so pages of code.

Java has IDEs that make it very fast to write Java code, I'm sure similar things exist for .NET, no such thing exists for php. The best IDE for php (the zend studio) looks like 5 guys tossed it together in a few months.

Seriously though what is the basis for that claim? Is it that in general php code requires less typing?!?! In which case the use of good IDEs refutes that...so then what? Why does writing web apps in php take half the time?

The cost may be true...but that would only be the case because you can hire some php programmers with half baked knowledge of CS to build your web app for you instead of people that actually went through school etc.

What is with your continuous bashing of PHP programmers?

And let me tell you, the best programmer I know, (he's famous in programming circles) did not go to college. The second best programmer I know did not study Computer Science in college.

PHP + College have nothing to do with being a good programmer/writing good code.

Anyway, here is the answer to my argument -

In my country, Java programmers cost twice as much as PHP programmers. And this is not because they are smarter. It's because most people do not use Java. It's like Cobol programmers. They make **** loads of money. Again, not because they're smarter, but because hardly anyone programs in Cobol anymore.

PHP does nearly everything you need. There is no need to complicate things! It doesn't make you smarter.

Php doesn't do everything you need...you NEED some sort of package management in a language - php lacks it.

But I will give you a similar argument...Assembly language does everything you need, no need to complicate things!! WHO needs functions...objects etc..just complicating things!

Your "it complicates things" is just rather silly.

Also, sure ok that is about the costs...now how about an answer regrading the time issue? Also I said nothing about smartness rather knowledge....what you know and how smart you are...are not one and the same thing.

The vast majority of people that have not been formally educated in CS (or related subject like mathematics) are very poor programmers...are there exceptions? Of course there are.

But ok you know someone that you think is a great programmer that didn't go to college. Now couldn't this also imply that you lack the ability to judge such issues just as much as what you are trying to imply.

Froggy, would it be fair to say that PHP definatley has its place on the web? Sure, maybe another language is more suitable for certain projects. But that doesn't make PHP useless and on th decline.

Seems that this has turned into an anti-PHP thread for you. Just curious as to why.

Yes It would be fair to say that php has a place on the web, for example java just doesn't work well on shared hosts. I didn't say php is useless, it has its place. I also think php 5 is better than all the other similar technologies that can be used (Ruby, perl..python). I don't think its the best in general though.

Also did you read the articles??? I didn't know php was decline hence I found the articles interesting.

Why am I dissing php? Well so many people diss things like java on WHT I'm just bring harmony to the universe.

But seriously I'm just responding to what is said, its a bit annoying that you have a bunch of people say "No way php is not in decline"...but do not offer any evidence of this. The person that started the thread posted some articles, and nobody responsed to the articles just the title of the thread. Someone did mention something from 2004, but this is now 2005.
Also the theme of the thread is "anti-php" a bit anyways, I don't see the problem of saying bad things about php on a thread about php. My initial comments were about the articles, the others were in response to things that were said to me. I'm not randomly making anti-php comments on threads.

I actually did read the artilcle. I, however, didn't see the article say one way or another that PHP is declining. What it did was show 2 different sides of the PHP spectrum arguing whether or not PHP was indeed declining. The article fails to draw a conclusion. I think the title of the article is a bit misleading to what the article actually says.

Anyhow, I am not defending nor executing PHP. Just was curious to know your more in depth thoughts on the issue.

Originally posted by Froggy
The vast majority of people that have not been formally educated in CS (or related subject like mathematics) are very poor programmers...are there exceptions? Of course there are.

But ok you know someone that you think is a great programmer that didn't go to college. Now couldn't this also imply that you lack the ability to judge such issues just as much as what you are trying to imply.

College has nothing to do with being a great programmer. Anyone who is a programmer can tell you that.

I find it bizarre how angry and aggressive your posts are.

You really think I'm mistaken in that I know an amazing programmer who didn't go to college?

Please. Open your mind.

I'll agree that php is not the most appropriate language for large scale projects and enterprise level solutions, but for many web based applications, it works great.

We host a number of medium sized ecommerce websites that do 7 figure revenue per month, and they embrace php and mysql being an integral part of their ecommerce solution (no, not oscommerce, but custom coded solutions).

LAMP solutions are often less costly, work well with standard dedicated servers, and allow for a good framework for additions in the future. Coded properly, they are easy to read and upgrade, and are compatible across a multitude of platforms without requiring specialized software or "beefier" servers.

- John C.

To Staff.ie: <sarcasm>Yes right being educated in CS has nothing to do with being a great programmer.</sarcasm> You can pretend that self-education is just as good as going to a university all you want...but its just not true. My point is: To be a good programmer you have to be well educated in CS, in most cases this means you have a degree. There are some people that have learned all the necessary stuff outside of college, I never denied that.
I never said you were mistake per se...but rather one could draw many different conclusions from what you said. Apparently having an open mind means agreeing with your views on the effects of education etc...nice one.

To JohnCrowley: I agree php works fine often. I personally don't like the language all that much, but it can work just fine for small/medium web apps. But once you need to start worry about performance and project management then its not so great. Also there is nothing that is less costly about LAMP than Java with mysql, they are both free. Also the amount of money a site makes doesn't say all that much about the site. I mean a company could be making millions a year with very little traffic if they are selling expensive items.

Edit: Actually, I couldn't be bothered having this nonsense, elitist argument with you.

<sarcasm> Yes thinking that education really helps people in fields like CS is elitism</sarcasm>

But yes I'm glad you didn't response, as your responses were mere fallacies "Any programmer would tell you that".

But I wish you luck with your recruitment software.

Originally posted by Froggy
To JohnCrowley: I agree php works fine often. I personally don't like the language all that much, but it can work just fine for small/medium web apps. But once you need to start worry about performance and project management then its not so great. Also there is nothing that is less costly about LAMP than Java with mysql, they are both free. Also the amount of money a site makes doesn't say all that much about the site. I mean a company could be making millions a year with very little traffic if they are selling expensive items. My point was to illustrate that businesses other than "kiddie scripters" and "kiddie sites" are using php/mysql in real world, heavy ecommerce applications. The $$ just back up that point, and a few of these sites do 200+ GB of transfer per month. Java is a more advanced language as far as OO design and implementation, but many small to medium sized projects can do just fine with functions and modules hooked together through a common interface.

- John C.

Point taken and I agree, I know of plenty of sites in php that do well and are well made. I personally wouldn't use php for anything complex, but of course businesses all have different needs and access to different resources.

Originally posted by Froggy
To the people that say php is not in decline did you actually read the articles? Yes IBM, Orcale got interested in PHP, but it appears at least what these articles say is since than php is in decline. Now, does anybody have any actual data to show that php is not in decline?

PHP is real popular with script kiddies...but that says little about how popular it is in the business world. Its that php is declining in the business world...

And for the love of god...don't mention yahoo (I really wish the peopel that mentioned yahoo using php..would actually read why they did....over say java or microsoft technologies).
PHP is popular with script kiddies? What an educated opinion there.

Every server I work on seems to have PHP installed and in use. And this is in the business world. Alot less have Perl, though.

Are you suggesting that php is NOT popular with script kiddies? The point of my comment is that...php is still very popular with people that are running a small site on shared hosting...but it does seem to be getting less popular in the business world.

Almost every linux distro comes with php and every server I've touched has had it being used too, but in every case it was being used for simple things.

I am not going to argue anybody or enter this war, i just want to say that i know some of my friends at a CS uni and i teach them. hint i have a BSc commerce :)

it is idiotic to compare the eliteness of having a degree in CS than studying it yourself. When I was 15 years old I worked in our country's biggest telecom as a programmer while my underlings have degrees in computer science and also in comp eng. I asked them why I am a senior programmer and they are not? they answered it is because I have more experience developing apps in C and C++ and have "tekniks" that makes our projects easier and inexpensive. Having a college degree that doesnt make people who have it better than me.

as to what php can scale big projects look at friendster. Its all about the implementation of the project not the language. and mind you java is worthless compared to a full pledge C++ app.

just my 1 cent

Yes...friendsters and yahoo the two sites you'll hear php people mention again and again. Where as with java there are hundreds of big sites using it...not to mention all the banking systems etc you don't see.

But sure you can make big sites in php....but that is due to apache more so than php in most cases. Its just not at all obvious how to do it in php and project management is a bit hard in a language that has no real notion of module or package. Languages have a big part in project management, this is after all one of the reasons OO languages were cooked up.

Why is java worthless compared to a full pledge C++ app? Java's proformance is not much worse than C++. The only real negative about it..is that it tends to use more memory (which I suppose on systems with low memory could effect speed). 90% of the applications out there don't require the extra few percent of performance C++ can give you. If your applications needs to run on many different platforms Java makes a lot of since to use, for example the Zend Studio is writen in java. If your application only needs to run on one platform then java doesn't really buy you much, its just a little easier to develop in.

Java is worthless because of its virtual machines. Its all about the virtual machine that made java worthless. I considered java as an interpreted one because of it. Java have lots of security and performance issues that I cannot even count but that doesnt mean it is a bad choice for mission critical projects. It is just expensive to develop but deliver little than what you can do with C++ or C or even NIMDA or brainf**k. java was developed and touted as a network app but not as a replacement for c++ or c. Java is all hype but with little muscle.

and also if you want to run your java app on different platform you just have to make sure that those virtual machines are set'ed up as you imagine or what we call compatible.

you didint comment on the first part of my post but I guess thats because it is true.

I didn't comment on the first part because I have no reason to believe what you say.

Your comments about java show you don't know much about java. There are no security problems with java applications, there are security problems with java applets though, it would be nice if you knew the difference. Also saying that java's virtual machine doesn't make it so. Why is it worthless, why is using garpage collection worse than having to allocate and free memory yourself? This is clearly an issue that is hotly debated. There are no performance issues with java anymore, benchmarks show that its performance is not that far from C++. The difference is a few percent..but as I said it does eat up a bit more memory. But if you really wanted to you could use the gcc compiler and compile your java code to machine code.

About the virtual machine issue, there is a very easy solution to that. You embedded a virutal machine in your application. Then you don't have to worry about people using differnt virtual machines. Or you can simply state that:

This runs on the java runtime environment 1.4+.

Both are rather easy to do.

But yes java wasn't created as a replacement for C/C++...but so what? You certainly don't write system level code in java. But for a standard desktop application it works great, particular when there is a need for it to be on many platforms.

Originally posted by Froggy
Yes...friendsters and yahoo the two sites you'll hear php people mention again and again.
http://toolbar.netcraft.com/site_report?url=http://suicidegirls.com

They're a fairly big community website.

why i always see a thread discussing JAVA vs C vs C++ vs PHP vs etc ... and why i dont see threads discussing hammer vs driller vs screw driver.

each programming language has its use, strong and weak points.

no one is best, no one is better than another except for a particular task or job.

Originally posted by beecoder
why i always see a thread discussing JAVA vs C vs C++ vs PHP vs etc ... and why i dont see threads discussing hammer vs driller vs screw driver.
Because what the languages can accomplish overlap with similair results, unlike a screw driver doing a drills job. :)

The reason I dissect them is to see what I find to be fit for my own use, and I've found a good one for me for what I do.

This is a really sad thread. Appears that some people need to find and outlet of somesort (OzzFest really works for me).

I could care less about web programming(I use php). I use perl everyday but not for the web(sysadmin stuff). The best part is this: Even if they are on a decline I can still use them.

Some people like to talk about programming languages, considering this is a huge field of study I don't see this as "sad" or odd at all.

If you dont' care...ok, but apparently making comments about such things makes more sense?

Neither Perl or PHP are in decline, nor C for that matter, before any stupid articles hype that nonsense, too. New stuff comes out all the time. Anything worth using that gets popular and has been around for a long time and is being actively developed, will continue to be around and be popular. Don't buy into the hype. Few new languages ever replace the standards, and there's not a lot of reason to since there's really no better alternatives.

Even if there were better alternatives (and there are not), the existing every day used and worth while languages will remain so, valuable, and used a lot. Any claims otherwise are pure hype and/or ignorance. Any programmer knows this, and only the non programmers create and print such inaccurate articles and make such claims--and that's honestly all there is to it.

FYI, I'm not just being stubborn about this or having trouble accepting it, it's truly the facts and there's nothing more to really say about it. Debates, language wars, etc. are nothing new, don't let it worry you. Find a good language you like and use it, it's not possible (or wise to try) to keep up on all the new stuff that pops up all the time--those are usually the one's that don't last.

Its nice that you tell us all "Its truly the facts" yet not point to a single source. Just to let you know saying something more than once doesn't make it true...calling it a fact doesn't make it true either. Here are FACTS on the useage of mod_perl:

http://perl.apache.org/outstanding/stats/netcraft.html

and

http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/man.200506/apachemods.html?mod=cGVybA==

Both show that its in the decline. Not a single person that has said "no its not in decline" has given a source of any data that shows this. I find it amazing that people deny what is stated in articles without any data that suggests otherwise, what is it wishful thinking? I don't know.

Originally posted by Froggy
Its nice that you tell us all "Its truly the facts" yet not point to a single source.


I'm not sure whom you are replying to. However, if you're a programmer and are familiar with the languages, and know how many people code in them and understand how useful they are, you wouldn't be here questioning it in the first place.


Just to let you know saying something more than once doesn't make it true...


It surely doesn't. Of course, neither do grossly misguided articles.


calling it a fact doesn't make it true either. Here are FACTS on the useage of mod_perl:

http://perl.apache.org/outstanding/stats/netcraft.html


Was my reply or this topic about Perl or mod_perl? I didn't mention mod_perl in this topic, nor claim how popular it is. I mentioned Perl, the language.


and

http://www.securityspace.com/s_survey/data/man.200506/apachemods.html?mod=cGVybA==

Both show that its in the decline.
[QUOTE]

I wasn't speaking of mod_perl. The thread was about Perl and PHP (the languages) being on the decline (absolutely untrue). They will be around as long as we will be, I bet you that.

[QUOTE]
Not a single person that has said "no its not in decline" has given a source of any data that shows this.


Well, when you're talking about something else entirely, like how many servers are using mod_perl, no wonder.


I find it amazing that people deny what is stated in articles without any data that suggests otherwise, what is it wishful thinking? I don't know.

No wishful thinking that I've seen. Do you even program? I mean, really, do question if PHP and/or Perl are on the decline is ludicrous. If you are out there in the real work programming, you'd know how ridiculous this topic is. Clearly, you're biased, and that's okay to not like the languages, but it's not exactly a reason to believe they are fading. Seriously, this is why it's sort of pointless to debate it. This is the type of thing you'd expect to see from someone that's programmed for only a couple of years, started on PHP and just repeat what they "hear" about languages like Perl, repeating things like "Perl is slower", "perl isn't good for web development", "Perl is only okay for CLI stuff" and "Perl is old, people aren't really using that anymore... it's declining" (of course, this same thing being said about PHP, so I'm only making an example).

Real coders know the facts, there is no reason to try and dig up sources. The fact there are millions and millions of Perl coders that program in it every day, I think should say it all. Either of us could quote biased "sources" all day to support either side of the debate, but again, any person that's been out there programming absolutely knows what's true or not and needn't quote sources. I've outlined why that is, so I hope you don't assume I'm saying that to avoid answering your "challenge". Unless you want to spend days quoting various sources supporting both sides and getting no where? I'm just being honest here, I'm not upset, and I'm not trying to offend you at all.

But just because we don't agree doesn't mean either of us are making up our views or what we know to be a fact. I just think the number of coders supports it without a doubt on my view. Tell you what, why does anyone care, especially if the don't code in that language anyway? Just to argue it in a forum thread? I assume not, so since it really doesn't matter, let's wait a few years and see if Perl and PHP are still popular, or if the world turns to .Net for all its needs and see who's opinions, theory, fortune telling, etc. was right, because this debate doesn't matter whatsoever anyway, especially then. I'm 100% confident of this, even if you think it'll go the other way, time will tell. I have nothing more to say, it's only an argument at this point anyway, and neither of us probably want to do that. Use what you like, don't worry about the rest, that's how I feel.

1. The articles were really about the web.

2. The point of the mod_perl stats are obvious: If you do anything serious with perl on the web you use mod_perl. mod_perl is on the decline, therefore perl on the web is on the decline. I was hopping this basic syllogism would be obvious apparently not. But maybe you disagree with the first premise? Do you seriously suggest that people have just stopped using mod_perl, and are now just going cgi?

3. If you have no desire to support your view ok fine...but why even respond then? In this case supporting your view means show statistics that show that its not in decline ON THE WEB. Yes I program, I know: C/C++, java, ML Perl and PHP. I ask again WHERE ARE YOUR FACTS? Its lovely that you reduce your position to fallacious reasoning..but seriously..how about some data to support your view. I would love to see it. I have absolutely no bias here, for what I spend the majority of my time doing these languages just aren't used. Apparently you don't get that stating something and saying "Well anybody that knows programming knows this" isn't showing anything except your inability to actually support your point of view. Its also delightful how you pass your views as self-evident...nice touch = )

4. Why do you even mention how many people use Perl? The fact that millions use Perl or PHP today says little about whether they are declining or not. I never stated that nobody uses the languages.

5. Yes my resource on mod_perl are biased...I after all used mod_perls website.

6. These topics are important to businesses, apparently you've never worked for one. They obviously need to know which technologies they are going to support or drop.

7. Arguments aren't bad, in fact they are great...if they aren't filled with fallacies. I can understand though that one woudln't want to bother debating this issue, what I don't understand is why someone would not give support for their views and instead respond with a bunch of "THis is my view...anybody that knows anything knows its true" crap.

By Froggy:They obviously need to know which technologies they are going to support or drop.

The decision by IBM and Oracle to provide native support for PHP in their databases proves they have recognized PHP's ability to harm their core businesses, and their desire to avert any problems by winning over PHP developers.

"Microsoft is interested in PHP - the next version of IIS is going to support PHP. If there was no interest, or we were seeing a decline of interest in PHP, why would they get their product to support PHP?"

The above are from the article that this discussion mentions.

In addition, IBM recently teamed up with Zend to release their IBM Core for PHP development (http://www.zend.com/core/ibm/). So as you can plainly see, companies are rapidly catching up to PHP. What has happened is that the hype surrounding PHP has cooled off. Now that people are actually taking it seriously, and not some 'script kiddie' language -- you are seeing big players come into the PHP circle.

Now, as far as decline or increase -- you find me any study that claims one thing, I'll find one that claims another. Its statistics, and anyone with half a brain knows, the results are not proven fact. You can make a study conclude whatever you want.

So, lets not turn this into a 'my bike is shinier than yours' argument. Save that for playtime please.

Ok find me a recent study that shows that Perl use as increased on the web, I'd love to see it.

Also I really hate this sort of view on statistics which is based on ignorance of statistics as a field. When people get Ph.ds in statistics theya ren't getting a ph.d in the art of BSing. People can misuse statistics sure, but so what? People also misuse logic too. If used correctly statistics leads to a lot of information. There are many companies out there at the cutting edge of statistically science making great products, expert systems etc etc. Also I have no idea what you mean by "proven fact" if by that you mean conclussions that are arrived at via deduction, than all of science is not "proven fact". Science seems pretty useful to me....just as statistics is useful.

Also Companies aren't interested in statistics that were based on statistically fallacies...I suggest you shouldn't be interested in them either.

Also, I'm not talking about "my bike" really, I use PHP all the time. Until I saw this post I was under the impression that its usage was increasing, after reading the articles I looked at others and it appears as if it is in the decline. But as you point out..this may not be significant at all...just that the hype is dying out. Seeing what happens in the next year or so...will show somethingg more significant. But still companies that are starting to support PHP are going to be worried about this.
I think Perl on the web has been in the decline since around 2002 though.

Originally posted by Froggy
Ok find me a recent study that shows that Perl use as increased on the web, I'd love to see it.


Uh huh. Sorry, but the only way to do this is to poll so-many programmers and see what they use, either solely or a combination. You're not going to be able to "get" statistics on this for either side of the debate, which is why I said even arguing about it is pointless. I know I've personally, nor have anyone I know that codes in these other languages, has ever bothered to or wanted to take any poll, for that matter.

I'm not sure how you think there's this information to be had out there, exactly. A lot of programmers code in a variety of languages, not usually just one. I have yet to meet any programmer that doesn't code in Perl or PHP, unless they don't do anything online. If you're not talking about online stuff, than C or C++ probably is the biggest threat anyway (C rules!) In fact, even the programmers I know that do nothing for online stuff for embedded systems use Perl instead of C/C++ or Java, but use them all (they use Perl for most of their stuff) Why? Because it works perfectly for it. Perl and PHP are not fading away at all. Where you think you get the information to prove this is the case, is what I think you should find so interesting in this debate, because I sure do.


Also I really hate this sort of view on statistics which is based on ignorance of statistics as a field.


And I hate it when people think they know more about it because they read an article or don't share your same view. I didn't say what I did because I don't agree, nor because I can't accept the truth or am worried or something. I said what I did, because that's the truth. Are you not a programmer? Do you only program for Windows where ASP and NET, etc. are the big languages you see used? I mean, what accounts for your view thinking that PHP and Perl are yesterday's news and are declining? You've not posted any stats to prove your side anyway, but I'd have to question where you got them anyway, since I can easily pull up stats based on research by a biased group, person or company. And, no, I'm not just saying that to try and hide any truths to oppose what I say to never make any stats appear as true or believable. I'm just saying, with millions and millions and millions and millions of PHP and Perl coders, if you were a programmer online, using any *nix variant especially, you'd know how ridiculous this whole thing is and trying to educate someone with an opposing view that can't believe it themselves, is not something I'm interested in doing. I think it's ironic that you think people should accept what you present as truth, when us programmers know the truth, because we're out there doing it and seeing it. Yet, you say "how can you know this to be true without stats to prove it". I don't need to research something to know what I already know and see.


When people get Ph.ds in statistics theya ren't getting a ph.d in the art of BSing.


And how does any such thing help prove it, without that information being available to even do the math? This isn't something simple to do the equations on, you know. There's no way to determine how many people use PHP or Perl, or ruby, or C, or C++, Java, NET, and so on. It's not as if "this many people bought American made cars in X year, and the number being sold in Y year is much less". There's no hard numbers to gather stats from.


People can misuse statistics sure, but so what?


The point is, biased stats, people using different numbers to help their side or sale. There's no way to obtain the required "numbers", so it's absolutely pointless.


People also misuse logic too. If used correctly statistics leads to a lot of information. There are many companies out there at the cutting edge of statistically science making great products, expert systems etc etc.


I never disagreed with this, I disagreed that it's possible to obtain stats on this topic, regarding how many people are using how many of the many languages out there, especially then and now. It also depends on if it's the primary language, or if they use it at all, etc.


Also I have no idea what you mean by "proven fact" if by that you mean conclussions that are arrived at via deduction, than all of science is not "proven fact". Science seems pretty useful to me....just as statistics is useful.


Read above. Read what context I used it in. The fact (since you're doing it) that you still want to argue about it, leaves me questioning why I'm replying now, again. We're not getting anyway, as I'm sure you can agree. I'm just not sure where you get the idea that you someone can obtain the information needed to conclude the status of these languages. It's not possible. Regardless, PHP and Perl aren't going anywhere, and that's the point. Prove me wrong in 5 or 10 years if they aren't used by anyone.


Also Companies aren't interested in statistics that were based on statistically fallacies...I suggest you shouldn't be interested in them either.


And I suggest this to you, too. The same rules should apply to you, unless you enjoy wasting your time.


Also, I'm not talking about "my bike" really, I use PHP all the time. Until I saw this post I was under the impression that its usage was increasing, after reading the articles I looked at others and it appears as if it is in the decline.


Right, so you've proved my point here now, about what I was saying. People read an article or two and their views are swayed accordingly. That's ridiculous. Someone could have just as easily posted a couple of articles about PHP being on the rise. It's like someone saying "He only drives that car because he has a small penis" and the guy's thinking "Wow, is that why I bought this car? Silly me, I just thought I liked the car!" If you're out there in it, using it and are involved in the communities, you will see the activity and number of users, over several years time, either staying about the same, dwindling or increasing. Do you really need to let an article sway your view in that regard to think "Oh, I thought it was increasing by everything I saw, but if there's an article that says otherwise...". Really now.


But as you point out..this may not be significant at all...just that the hype is dying out. Seeing what happens in the next year or so...will show somethingg more significant. But still companies that are starting to support PHP are going to be worried about this.
I think Perl on the web has been in the decline since around 2002 though.

Okay, that's fair, and if that's the way you see it, as thinking this or that have been on the decline, assuming you really are into said language and communities, that's perfectly acceptable, if you can base this on your own experience with aspects that truly represent the issue. Perhaps PHP's hype is dying off, but does this mean it's declining? It's so *much* out there, that it just doesn't need the hype, new people are immediately exposed to it when they get a web hosting account. I think it's still growing, with every new person that gets online and start doing web development. While it is ridiculous to companies to react based on any claims in an article that can't be proved, I do agree that it does happen. Most companies are clueless about things and go the way the media tell them, by scare tactics or just biased reports or statistics. My point is, all the programmers see and know what the facts of the matter are, and articles like this are meaningless. I'm not saying PHP will be the most popular language for decades to come, but it (and many others like Perl, etc.) are not going away. Simply put, there's nothing to worry about. That said, I really don't have anything more to ad to this thread, so I'll stop there.

Tim did you happen to notice the other post? You responded to things that were not directed at you..in any sense.

You can get statistics on this sort of stuff vary easily (you use random samples), for the web its easier as you can see what is being used on the servers. The stats I pointed to about mod_perl are such, both show its use on the web has been declining for a while now. All of my comments are about what is used on the web.

Secondly, I'm so bloody sick of your fallacies. I seriously think you are under the impression that stating something makes it true. You keep stating "THis is the truth"...but refuse to give an argument for it...which would require you to actually show data. Its as if you take these things on faith...and seriously you know a VERY small faction of programmers out there. Your personal experiences are NOT a random sample therefore making conclusion on them is highly irrational. So please..just stop responding with "I know this is true"..I just don't care what you pretend to know. If you have some actual data to show, I'd love to see it.

Do you suggest that programmers have some sort of special sense that tells them about these things? I seriously dont' get this. Programmers don't automatically know what is going on..they are usually around a select group of people that have similar views as them. You keep wanting to suggest that I'm "not a programmer", I don't know why. I program every day...I get paid for it...I'd imagine that makes me a "programmer". But I don't do web related stuff as a job, I do it for fun or sometimes as a favor for a bit of extra cash. Does this mean I do not know about web related programming, no. Also the vast majority of the programming I do is for unix/linux as I work at a university. The projects I've worked on have used C/C++, java and ML. Now...if I was to make judgements regarding programming languages based on the people I"m around...ML would be the best thing since sliced bread. But most likely you've never heard of it...or at least have never used it. The point: You can't base your views on the attitudes on programmer via the people you are generally around as these people are almost always like minded.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I get it already. Anything you say about your personal opinion is based on some non existent research, even though you even admitted that right until you read one single BIASED article, that even you didn't think PHP was on the decline. You're ridiculous. I mean, as much as you go on about me not showing data (when I gave the reason why it's not even possible), you haven't either. Apparently you don't need to, and this seems okay with you. What a JOKE!

I made it pretty clear that people "out there" in programming (for the web) know what I say to be a fact--not just because I said it, and I was also very clear when I said that these are based on the programming communities, sites, forums, news groups (and so on...). You can refuse to believe whatever you want based on this one ludicrous and inaccurate article and conjure up whatever you feel you have to to make you feel better about yourself and your opinions, but that doesn't make them true.

I mean, really, to try and accuse me of just thinking something's true because I say it, is a pretty immature response. You admitted that you believed otherwise until an article (which had NO proof to support its claims--because there are NONE to support it!), that even you thought otherwise about PHP (at least), and that's all it took to sway your opinion--apparently strongly at that. Do you think the way you're acting and appear to me, is someone I want to bother and continue a debate about this with? Of course not. I can't imagine anything more I could say to be more clear, but it's obvious you have an agenda or you're too easily influenced for this particular article to have such an impact on you to keep arguing about it, and that's pathetic, truly. I'm just laying it out on the table.

The article simply mentioned a few large companies. I don't pretend or deny that PHP isn't big for a company's internal development and so on, and why would it be? Why would Microsoft or Oracle care to develop their web site front/back-ends in PHP? I never said that they would. The fact is, online, where the majority of servers are *nux based, most people use PHP and continue to. Simple because some offline or large companies that are very MS centric said they have don't use it as much or have any intention to consider it, doesn't mean jack. The fact is, out of all your whining about it, you have failed to show one ounce of information to support your side of this debate anyway. Like I said, if you were a real programmer out in the real world of coding for things on web servers, applications, web development, you'd know that PHP and Perl are nowhere near fading away and will be around.

There's plenty of crap out there that companies like Oracle use and drop all the time as the years pass, which means nothing, unless you happen to work for Oracle (just one of many examples). Why is it that you think an argument between you and I here on this forum, helps either of us prove anything? What makes you think someone like you whom is passionately influenced by one single biased article that provided NO PROOF that wants to start a language war because of it, interests me at all? In fact, it doesn't, and I won't post again to you in this thread (I know, like you care). Stop repeating yourself and acting like only what you say can be fact, when clearly you're not out there in this field to make any judgments about it.

I'll conclude with this, as if it'll get through at all. From my perspective, you must understand, when I know things are a fact and some newbie comes out of the woodwork to start yelling inaccuracies they "heard" in some "article", it doesn't give much credence to your side, since you can too easily be swayed by something you read, basing it on nothing more than what it said. The fact is, if it would have said otherwise, you'd be preaching that as gospel instead. To those that know better, it just makes you look like a newbie that listened to the wrong person. No harm in that, until you start telling those that do know, that they don't--because that's highly annoying. You are free to believe whatever you wish, and you also don't have to care how it makes you look either--you clearly don't.

Yeah, I know how I look to you, but I also know how each of us look to those that do know (and you're free to draw your own conclusions on whom people think is the one with the goofy conclusions). Don't misunderstand me, I'm not in this to win friends or the respect of others, I'm just stating the facts, out of all the misrepresented data you are screaming about. Trust me, I know people like you don't like to hear they are wrong, and it does no good to debate it when it's a subjective matter where there's no way to possibly get statistics from either side. The sad thing is, you also don't realize that and it seems to be somehow reinforcing your own view that you must be right after all, and you fail to see that you have no proof from your side of this debate either. Anyway, enough psychoanalyzing this/you, I really don't have any interest in continuing this. You'll find out PHP and Perl are still being used by a lot of people in a few years and you can deal with it then. Done.

Oh, to cover one thing I forgot to earlier, and in the spirit of the point I was making about this lame article, was.

Froggy says "I find it amazing that people deny what is stated in articles without any data that suggests otherwise, what is it wishful thinking? I don't know".

I say "I find it amazing that people blindly accept what they read in articles as the facts, when the article itself just makes claims and ALSO never provided any data that supports their claim". Tell me, isn't that wishful thinking? An article can go either say, depending on who wrote it. Shouldn't that same logic apply when you *initially* read and discern the article? Oh well, I guess it's more fun to argue for some people... anything to fuel it, I guess.

They provided no proof and I find it ludicrous about how worked up some people get after being so easily influenced by one single article that didn't even back up any of their claims (they can't anyway, and I've been fair in saying that neither side could in this debate regarding "stats" or "data" in numbers. If you are into the language and the commuinities and development, you know what's the truth and some propaganda based article means nothing to change that). I guess when you think you're right, inspired by a simple article's claim or another reason, there's no room for someone to just look at the facts and the world around them.

With that said, I won't post to this thread again. Doubt what I say? Fine, let's see if a lot of people are still using PHP in the next few years--my bet is that they will and it's not going anywhere and I'll still be happy coding in Perl and C. If I'm wrong, come find me then and say "I told you so" and I'll commend you on your lucky guess that was only based on one single article that provided no data, as you say.

Originally posted by Froggy
I'm not angry at all. Do you have any evidence that indicates that it actually takes half the time and price to make a web application in php rather than say java. Mind you I'm talking about web applications of a decent size here not some web apps that uses 10 or so pages of code.

Java has IDEs that make it very fast to write Java code, I'm sure similar things exist for .NET, no such thing exists for php. The best IDE for php (the zend studio) looks like 5 guys tossed it together in a few months.

Seriously though what is the basis for that claim? Is it that in general php code requires less typing?!?! In which case the use of good IDEs refutes that...so then what? Why does writing web apps in php take half the time?

The cost may be true...but that would only be the case because you can hire some php programmers with half baked knowledge of CS to build your web app for you instead of people that actually went through school etc.

I am probably biased as we are PHP shop and we do not work with other technologies unless we really have to, but in your posts you keep repeating few things that are not true.

Package management / Project management / IDE

We have implemented package management that allows us to easy deploy module updates across multiple non-relates sites with no effort at all. Our project revision control system allows for cooperative work of multiple developers using different platforms where each person can work on their module with very little regard for other stuff. The hart of this system is Quanta (open source php/web IDE that because of it's open source nature can be easily extended to do many nice things that allow us to concentrate on development and forget about back end stuff) and a few bash scripts. (Only one instance of Quanta is needed, others can use anything they wish for development and dreamweawer and phpdesigner seem to be favorite choice of windows users).

It seems like you are judging PHP based on your own deficiencies and lack of vision rather then on abilities and potential of the language. Many people do so. I believe that the reason is simply that Zend was not as effective in the marketing field as Sun and Microsoft are, but that is slowly changing.

IMHO PHP is not as easy as many say. It might be simple to do "hello world" but it is a long way from there to full blown web application that will grow as the site grows. The biggest problem of PHP might be the fact that in a few minutes you can have your first program running which in turn makes every kid who installed PHP Nuke - developer, and everyone who looked at source code of some PHP app - a critic.

At the end, show me latest app you created and I will show you mine. That will help everyone judge if there is any merrit to our posts in the thread.

Originally posted by Edvalbuena
Java is worthless because of its virtual machines. Its all about the virtual machine that made java worthless. I considered java as an interpreted one because of it. Java have lots of security and performance issues that I cannot even count but that doesnt mean it is a bad choice for mission critical projects. It is just expensive to develop but deliver little than what you can do with C++ or C or even NIMDA or brainf**k. java was developed and touted as a network app but not as a replacement for c++ or c. Java is all hype but with little muscle.

and also if you want to run your java app on different platform you just have to make sure that those virtual machines are set'ed up as you imagine or what we call compatible.

you didint comment on the first part of my post but I guess thats because it is true.

Finally someone I agree with. If you're going to go through the hassle of using an OO language like Java you might as well code it in C. These abstract concepts, also known as OO, are not built for speed. An executive may think to himself: You pay for what you get, and PHP costs nothing. Languages like ASP have snob factor because you have to pay hefty licensing fees.

I see complaints in this thread about PHP not having enough features. What exactly are these features that PHP lacks?

Tim: Thanks for repeating yourself again I don't know why you waste your time saying the same thing again and again "I know it... I know the facts". Also, and I stated this, Its not that I believed what was stated in the posted articles rather after reading them I looked up other information, I don't have it bookmarked but I'm sure I can easily get it again. But given that the last time I gave you data you dismissed it...I don't see what the point is. But yes I'm a newbie...I don't know where you get this idea...seriously tim you come across to me as some low paid script kiddie that wouldn't know what a what a splay tree is without googling it (and even then have trouble getting it). I make arguments you don't respond to my arguments you repeat yourself again and again.

Lastly, I never said php will be gone in a few years...I said it appears to be on the decline likewise for Perl. It could very well reverse this trend, I cannot tell the future and I don't pretend to...you apparently think you can.

I simply dont care about your opinion...I do care about the facts though (note: the actual facts not the faith you have). I have absolutely no reason to be biased in this issue.... whether perl of php are in decline or not..just isn't going to effect me in any way. If someone has data that suggest something different than what the articles that the started this thread, I'd love to see them.

Originally posted by sasha
At the end, show me latest app you created and I will show you mine. That will help everyone judge if there is any merrit to our posts in the thread.

I really don't get this. Could you explain this? You as a job work on php apps, I write web apps for fun in my spare time. I would damn well hope that what you are doing is more robost etc than what I'm doing. I fail to see how this says anything about the "merrit of my posts" though. We could if you'd like compare compilers though, have you writen any of those?

About the package stuff. Its perfectly possible that there is a feacture of the language I'm missing, but nobody has pointed it out to me, maybe you can. My issue is this:

Lets say I have writen a collection of code that I want to distribute (say 20 files or so). But lets say that users should only be able to access one of those files and the rest should be hidden and you should not be able to call them outside of the "package". In Java and Perl this is easy to do...how do you do it in php?

Also the IDEs for php are lacking.... alot. Some of it has to do with the language not having types, but I really don't know what excuse there is for the others. For example I've used both the Zend studio and eclipse (with php plugin) and was supprised that there was no support for refractoring.


Adam:

Programming in OO in a robost language is generally not slower than using a language like C. The performance of C++ is almost always about the same as C. Also managing big projects is much easier in OO languages..this is after all one of the reason they were created.

I wouldn't use ASP, I don't use MS technologies. PHP isn't the only free technology you can use for the web you also have: Perl, Python, Ruby, Java and ASP (yes there is a linux version of asp).

Lastly I think PHP is lacking a few things (see above for one). Also you can't really do hardcore OO design in PHP without being hit with performance issues. The performance hit can be as bad as 40% or so...but usually closer to 15-20%. I don't think any of the other languages have this problem, but I could be wrong (I know at least Java doesn't..and pretty sure Perl doesn't either).

Sorry, I can't resist:

Originally posted by Froggy
Tim: Thanks for repeating yourself again I don't know why you waste your time saying the same thing again and again "I know it... I know the facts". Also, and I stated this, Its not that I believed what was stated in the posted articles rather after reading them I looked up other information, I don't have it bookmarked but I'm sure I can easily get it again. But given that the last time I gave you data you dismissed it...I don't see what the point is. But yes I'm a newbie...I don't know where you get this idea...seriously tim you come across to me as some low paid script kiddie that wouldn't know what a what a splay tree is without googling it (and even then have trouble getting it). I make arguments you don't respond to my arguments you repeat yourself again and again.


You only repeat yourself and don't show any data. Yes, I assume you're a newbie by your rationalizations about things that are not true/correct. Now, I'm a "script kiddie" because I don't agree with you? Heh, that's good. And, "given the last time you gave me data"? What? When did that happen? You posted some irrelevant link about mod_perl--which is nothing I ever discussed (we were talking about the Perl language, not the mod_perl module/environment). I also actually responded to every point you tried to make and countered them, even if you can't accept it.


Lastly, I never said php will be gone in a few years...I said it appears to be on the decline likewise for Perl. It could very well reverse this trend, I cannot tell the future and I don't pretend to...you apparently think you can.


I didn't say I could predict the future, I said there's no current information showing that PHP is on a decline. Nice of you to mention there was all this information out there about it by checking, but how it just slipped your mind to post the links and you forgot to bookmark them as well. Doesn't sound believable for someone so desperate to argue against every single person in this thread, as you are, to neglect to do that when they are doing so poorly at "proving their point". In fairness, I'm sure there are a lot of MS related sites that hype up NET, Java, ASP, etc. and say how less people are using PHP. I'm sure of it, in fact. I guess you're just too new to this whole Internet thing, so I won't ridicule you about it.


I simply dont care about your opinion...


Sure you do, why else would you continue to argue about it?


I do care about the facts though (note: the actual facts not the faith you have).


If you cared about the facts, you'd have researched it and never have made these untrue claims as you have been doing. Enough said.

I have absolutely no reason to be biased in this issue....


Who would? But you do and are. You talked up about the languages you like, MS propaganda.


whether perl of php are in decline or not..just isn't going to effect me in any way.



Exactly, and since you know little to nothing about them, you feel comfortable buying into a bogus article and use that as motivation to attack anyone in this thread that doesn't agree with you. Note: That's everyone so far. Does that tell you anything? Oh, of course not!


If someone has data that suggest something different than what the articles that the started this thread, I'd love to see them.

And if that article you are going on about even HAD any data to suggest what they were saying was true, maybe I'd accept there's a reason for you to be arguing for that article being accurate. However, the article itself didn't. So, why are you so behind this article that didn't provide ANY data at all, but you demand people counter it with proof showing data? That's insanely stupid. Anyway, barring any MS biased sites or language war threads and opinions, I'd challenge you to back up what you say with data for once--you demand others do, why can't you?

Oh, forget it. You'll reply with another untrue accusation of what I even said again, like you did above with your claim about how I didn't reply about it when you posted data (you never did, you posted about mod_perl, which is not the topic and nothing I argued other than the fact it could be used and doesn't have to be a resource hog of dangerous to offer). I'm going to just block your username at WHT now, this is pointless and you only flame to incite responses. Toodles...