I just got this in my email, very interesting...

==================================

To all former FreeHostSpace.com customers. We want to set the record
strait about why we are no longer in business. We are no longer in
business because of CheapHostOnline.com's malicious and underhanded
efforts that finally forced us out of business. CHOL effectively
planned
and executed a hostile take over of the FreeHostSpace.com domain name
and
web site. CHOL not only shut the web site down but also against our
wishes
redirected thousands of accounts to CHOL's forced sign up page over the
Easter weekend. FHS has worked for months to migrate accounts from
CHOL's
servers, which are the exact same servers that many of you are having
problems with your site going up and down constantly. These are also
the
servers that CHOL now wants you to pay to stay on.

We had agreements in place with CHOL that if they had chosen to honor
would have prevented all of this from happening. All of the network and
technical support problems that many of you experienced over the last
several months were due to CHOL's less than professional support to us
as
their reseller. Furthermore it is outrageous that CHOL is requiring you
to
sign up through them or risk losing your domain name if you registered
through FreeHostSpace.com. You own this domain name and you should have
the right to host it with whom ever you like. We suggest that you
contact
enom.com either by phone or email and let them know what their reseller
DH
Enterprises is trying to do with your domain name. Enom can and should
over ride this and provide your domain management account information
to
manage your domain name. DH Enterprises is in affect holding your
domain
name hostage unless you host with them. This is unethical and illegal.

We are very sorry that this has happened and did everything in our
power
to prevent it. We trusted CHOL to do the right thing in this situation
so
that our customers would not suffer. Unfortunately CHOL chose to take
the
"pirate" approach and effectively voided an agreement to continue
paying
them while we migrated our accounts from their servers so everyone
could
continue to have a free account. If you do business with
CheapHostOnline.com you are effectively doing business with the very
company that caused all of this to happen to begin with. You will
continue
to have the same poor server up time and customer service that we had
which in affect made us look bad as the company providing you with your
service. This was the very reason we had made the decision to migrate
back
in January to our own data center. Unfortunately we made some business
decisions with CHOL that consequently allowed them to do what they have
done now. However, what they have done was not what was agreed and as
stated earlier was a hostile shut down and take over of
FreeHostSpace.com.
We at FHS thought it better to at least contact our former customers
one
last time and give our side of the story rather than have you only get
CHOL's side, which frankly is a complete and utter disregard for the
truth. We know this does not help alleviate the inconvenience this has
caused you and we tremendously regret once again that this has
happened.

Sincerely,

FreeHostSpace.com

Outrageous!

I think the owners of domain names being held hostage should also complain to ICANN - the governing body for all Registars and Registries.

ICANN Registrar Complaint Form (hosted at InterNIC)
http://www.internic.net/cgi/registrars/problem-report.cgi

Good luck,
iBridge

Now that is ...i dont know what to say. :eek2: :eek3:

I'm so frustrated right now by this whole freehostspace/cheaphostonline thing. I'm a web-virgin in that this was the first domain I have ever personally tried to register and have hosted. I'm very confused about what actually happened when I paid for the domain registration - I registered through FreeHostSpace when I signed up for the space. I'm listed (on enom) as the registrant & admin contact - does that mean I actually own the domain? I tried to follow the links on the cheaphostonline site to cancel my hosting but keep my domain name (supposedly a free transfer to a new host) but the page(s) it links to has such poor/unintelligible grammar that I can't even tell for sure what I cancelled - the hosting or the domain name! E-mails that I have gotten from cheaphostonline are, again, so poorly written that I'm starting to wonder if they're intentionally trying to confuse us. What's the next step in the procedure of switching hosts? Do I have to give the old host info from the new host or vice versa? I don't have a login for enom so I don't think I can bypass cheaphostonline. Anyone have any suggestions or similar experiences?

spiwakc:

Looks like there is a link on CheapHostOnline.com's web site regarding your problem:

http://www.cheaphostonline.net/freehostspace/

Best of luck.

biosphere

hmmm....
Hard to say what is really going on here I think...
My opinion is swayed towards cheaphostonline.net...

Maybe for laughs, the "data center" these customers were gonna be moved to will be described for you all. Just to give you a GOOD laugh.

Everyone can read my post regarding freehostspace in another thread http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=42560&highlight=freehostspace

I just wanted to make sure its clear hear we are not trying to hold anyones domain hostage. We are asking for the information that we are asking for so that we can better help the people when the domains are due for renewal.

We don't run a scam operation here just a hosting operation :)

I just wanted to let you guys know that the freehostspace people just don't quit.

The guy who owned freehostspace didn't know beans about webhosting last summer but now but now they opened up another website call dataraq.net that says he has been in business doing webhosting since 1998

Take a look at the whois information that we pulled up and notice

http://www.thehornedking.net/dataraqwhois.jpg

Originally posted by tymonhall
I just wanted to make sure its clear hear we are not trying to hold anyones domain hostage. We are asking for the information that we are asking for so that we can better help the people when the domains are due for renewal.

We don't run a scam operation here just a hosting operation :) [/B]

...then why hav'nt you given the people affected any updates on your progress in over a week, or any support for that matter!....& why is a domain I paid for now registered in your name..Mr Hall?

...you've asked us to be patient...I have!


I'm sure a word from you is all most of us require to ease our worries;)

What a farce!:eek:

You know if I had to do all over again. I would have just canceled ALL 6000 accounts and deleted them off the servers. Giving these people no choice or answers and the only reason why is because my company’s name is being put thru the mud for something we didn't do. We didn't say FreeHostSpace go out of business, no they owe us and they owe us BIG.

You know I have spent thousands on trying to help everyone. I have hired more people to provide support and everything. We are just now getting things back into some sort of control but I just feel like now one is grateful for what we are trying to do.

I've had letters from the BBB and Washington Attorney Generals having to explain our selves once its done they end up siding with us but it take up so much time doing this. Not to mention the 6000 plus people who are emailing every day asking questions about where is freehostspace and what happened. Enom has told me they have been flooded with calls and emails and complaints but all we can do is try and help people.

People I know most of the people who come to this board is web hosting companies and such lets be real about it here most of us out here would not be ready to take on a 6k free hosted customers over telling them to pay or get canceled. We had to and make our adjustments for it.

The people can have their domains we just want to make sure the right people get it. Trying to verify all of this is the hardest part of all. This is the reason why its taken so long. :(

Hind sight is 20/20 eh?

Next time a reseller bails leaving you with a huge bill just format those systems and then send an email to all those affected domains "we hear your web hosting provider recently CUT AND RUN on you, here's a link to our signup page!" and there you have it, done in a few minutes. As for domain registrations, that's not your problem, that's the reseller's he's the one who sold them and made the money from the selling of them, let him explain to all them people about their registrations. You could be nice and send another email "Hey we hear you might lose your domain name register a new one with us!". :D

Seriously, 6000 web sites, who knows how many of those are also registered through this failed business. That is a daunting task, I do not envy you this. You're gonna piss a lot of people no matter how well you handle it.

Gary its late I can't believe your up. :)

Yea, I guess your right people are going to be piss one way or another. I just don't understand this I have seen people say I understand the reseller model and I want to cancel my hosting service but keep the domain I will contact my bank and try to get my money back as you recommended, oh by the way I am sending a letter to the BBB on your company because you say I have to fill out all this stuff to verify who I am to get my domain.

Now this is what I am having to put up with everyday for the past two weeks. I am glad that tonight I stayed up late to clear out my personal mail box which I handle the domain registration account, my reseller account, and my own account. The domain registration has had more emails in two weeks then ever before, Like 2000 plus that I have had to answer to.

It's a general rule that you don't register your domain name with your hosting company. They often register it in their own name, and if you have problems with the host it is hard to move.

Tymon...

Dont get me wrong, i realise the daunting task you must have (I'm sure most of us do)...& I'm mad, but not really angry...its more like very frustrated..as I'm sure you would be too, if a domain you paid for was found to be registered in someone elses name, & you had not recieved any word as to why in over a week!

The last word I recieved from you was an email stating that if I didnt change my settings, they would expire in 48 hours...in your defence you did supply a link with which to accomplish this, but I was never able to login, nor am I able to now....so guess what?...it expired!

I placed two tickets & one email a week ago...none have been replied to!

...what I'm trying to say is....if (every few days) you would just place an update in the notices box on the support ticket page....you would alleviate a lot of worries for the people affected by this....& maybe you could get some rest;)

...just let us know whats up!!

thanks for letting me vent!

If you are a former FreeHostSpace customer who also owns a domain name registered through FreeHostSpace (but which is now in and controlled by CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account), then I just posted a message in a related thread:

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42560

that I'm pretty sure that both Tymonhall (CheapHostOnline) and others in this thread who are concerned about their domain names will want to read.

If you are *not* an owner of a domain name registered through FreeHostSpace, then there is no point in going to the above-referenced thread other than if you're simply curious.

Originally posted by Myacen
It's a general rule that you don't register your domain name with your hosting company. They often register it in their own name, and if you have problems with the host it is hard to move.

I disagree, to a point. I use Enom, someone registers a domain with me, I register it, I send them a password, they can do whatever they want with it. It is nice that I can go into my reseller panel and make changes to stuff if I need to, and I agree it wouldn't be too hard to screw people over, but if you're dealing with a company that'll screw you over they'll eventually screw you whether you're only hosting with them or have all your eggs in the basket. On the flipside, if you spread your love around and register domain here, host there, etc, you'll up the odds of encountering a bad apple.

There's no right answer really. It just boils down to the integrity of the company you're dealing with I guess and only time will tell.

Just curious.....

How does a person that registers a domain via a host signup form signify their agreement to the dispute resolution system?

I registered my first few domains via my host in 97 because I didn't know any better......

Gary Harris.... does your agreement include the registry rules and a disclaimer that you are registering it in thier name for them?

Freehostspace had a DOS attack on the server hosted by the great guru of Cheaphostonline not on their servers as indicated in the science fiction post from Cheaphostonline. The only solution offered was there was nothing that could be done. When Freehostspace asked to host their site on their own servers the great junior guru said no. Freehostspace wanted to see for itself what the DOS attack or hacker thing was all about and if they could stop it, if it actually did exists. I use to work for Freehostspace and I know all too well the tactics of Cheaphostonline. I sat for hours each day trying to help angry customers with problems that were initiated by the great junior gurus terrible server problems. I had to wait for days and weeks for an answer from the great one. Anyway, it is all water under the bridge now and if I were anyone out there looking to not be taken in, I would stay far away from anything associated with Mr. Tymon or the junior guru. You can also do some Google searches and find some great information on the owner of Cheaphostonline and some of the other great problems this guru created on the internet. Bye and have a good day! Also check out Yahoo clubs. There is one called "Wewantourdomainsback", and Freehostspace is not listed as the culprit there.:)

Anyone out there that is having a problem getting their domain back from Cheaphostonline, can go to Yahoo Clubs and register in a club called "wewantourdomainsback" search for it under Freehostspace. Some people in that club have actually gotten their domains back and give a link to get your domain back from DH Enterprises that is listed as the owner instead of the real owner.

Originally posted by indyjon
Just curious.....

How does a person that registers a domain via a host signup form signify their agreement to the dispute resolution system?

I registered my first few domains via my host in 97 because I didn't know any better......

Gary Harris.... does your agreement include the registry rules and a disclaimer that you are registering it in thier name for them?

Nope and nope, they pay, I register it, give them their login and password and remind them to change the contact info from the default when they get a chance :)

Robert, I know who you are. If you notice the "junior guru" is the title they give for the number of post that you have on this message board. :)

As for people who want thier domains they already know they can have them. We have given 1,000s of people access to them however we still have 1,000s to go but they can have them.

I did give Freehostspace some options but since you were not on the phone with us when we talked you might not know. They choose not to take us up on any of the offers.

The only options offered to Freehostspace were to give up the customer base. Why did you not let Freehostspace host their own domain on their own servers. I have a brother there in Seattle that could have helped us with the attacks. A lot of people in the business that I know said they are very suspicious of the fact that we were not allowed the opportunity to see the DOS attacks for ourselves and try to stop them on our own system. You also redirected 4,000 accounts to your servers which is something you said you wouldnot do. You have brought a lot of pain on yourself and gave up thousands of dollars that was being paid back to you. I for one am glad that it is all over and the business that you ruined will come back stronger and better because it wont have the weight of a person like yourself around its neck. I just wonder how many other resellers have met their bitter end at your hands. You know what goes around comes around, there is such a thing as instant Karma. Anyway it is all over and said and done. I believe you made a very bad business decision and you too are probably paying for it and the thousands of customers that I am sure are very upset and mad. Many lessons were learned from the experience with your company and believe it or not the lessons learned will be very helpful in the future success of a new company. The lessons learned were the do nots of webhost reselling. Actually I should be thanking you for help in showing us how not to do business in the future and starting us on the road to success.
Robert
Former Freehostspace Tech Support

Robert,
I don't know why you are choosing to take this route and make these unprofessional (and frankly, immature) statements in a public forum. It's not making you or any of the other "Freehostspace" people look any better.
I, too, know who you are and was privy to the entire situation. Perhaps you have been misled by one of the other Freehostspace employees, because it looks like you don't have all the facts. If that's the case, I'm sorry. Maybe you should do some asking around from your end and find the truth before you make these kind of statements.
Either way, it's "water under the bridge", as you stated yourself. Maybe it's time to just move on and stop squabbling about it like a group of petty highschool girls.
Just a thought. :)
Elisabeth

Originally posted by ThingWraith
Robert,
I don't know why you are choosing to take this route and make these unprofessional (and frankly, immature) statements in a public forum. It's not making you or any of the other "Freehostspace" people look any better.
I, too, know who you are and was privy to the entire situation. Perhaps you have been misled by one of the other Freehostspace employees, because it looks like you don't have all the facts. If that's the case, I'm sorry. Maybe you should do some asking around from your end and find the truth before you make these kind of statements.
Either way, it's "water under the bridge", as you stated yourself. Maybe it's time to just move on and stop squabbling about it like a group of petty highschool girls.
Just a thought. :)
Elisabeth

Elisabeth,

What is your relation to or connection with CheapHostOnline or Derrick Hall?

Originally posted by biosphere
spiwakc:

Looks like there is a link on CheapHostOnline.com's web site regarding your problem:

http://www.cheaphostonline.net/freehostspace/

Best of luck.

biosphere

Its easy to transfer your domain to another domain name registrar. All you need to do is prove that you are the owner, which can be in any number of ways - even as simple as responding to a webmaster@yourdomain.com email.

DomainNameToolShed.com has a transfer process that is pretty simple - as do many other registrars. The only catch is you have to extend your registration for 1 year, but that $20 is a cheap price to make sure you don't lose your domain...

Take care,

Brian

Hi Mr. DesElms,
I'm part of the tech support team for CHOL.
I'm aware of your involvement and your angle on the situation, since you sent copies of your communications to the support desk. ;)

Elisabeth

Originally posted by ThingWraith
Hi Mr. DesElms,
I'm part of the tech support team for CHOL.
I'm aware of your involvement and your angle on the situation, since you sent copies of your communications to the support desk. ;)

I hope by your use of the phrase "your angle," and your inclusion of the winking icon, that you do not mean to imply that I have some ulterior motive or self-serving "angle" regarding the FreeHostSpace/CheapHostOnline situation. I simply have a client who feels his domain name is being held hostage by CheapHostOnline and who is asking, through me, that you please use the eNom "push" feature of your eNom reseller account to "push" his domain into his new, personal, retail eNom account. To date this has not been done, though I admit that Mr. Hall did finally respond to my letter day before yesterday (for which I'm grateful, I might add).

I'm eager to know what CheapHostOnline's ETA is on that request, incidentally. If you have a copy of the letter I sent, then you know the domain name about which I speak and also the eNom Log-in ID to which he wishes it pushed. When do you think that will happen?

In addition, I am hearing privately from former FreeHostSpace clients in droves who are asking me for help and advice. I have not made any of them "clients" yet. I'm hoping that I will begin seeing the kind of responsiveness from CheapHostSpace that will not make it necessary.

Mr. Hall claims that he and his staff (I assume that includes you) are so swamped that they haven't had time to do something as simple as taking two minutes (literally... it would take no longer than that) to log-in to CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account and "push" my client's domain into his personal eNom retail account. If so, then I cannot help but ask: How is it that you have time to read and post to this forum?

And as long as I have your attention, and since you seem to have the time, perhaps you can answer a few of the questions that former FreeHostSpace customers -- some of whom, I might point out have been near tears as I've chatted with them on the phone -- have been asking me lately, to wit:

1. Why is CheapHostOnline doing this to us?

2. Why is CheapHostOnline holding my domain name hostage?

3. Why is Derrick Hall's name in the "registrant" area of my domain's WHOIS record? That's *my* domain. I paid for it. Has he hijacked it? Will I ever get it back?

4. When will I get a password to the control panel for my domain name so I can put my name back into its "registrant" field, and also so I can re-point my domin to the new web site that I've built since I lost the one I had at FreeHostSpace?

5. Why have the passwords CheapHostOnline has sent me in the past been the wrong passwords? What's the game, here?

6. Why won't Mr. Hall "push" my domain from his eNom account to the one I've told him I've created for myself on the eNom web site? Is he trying to forcibly hold on to my domain so he can get revenue from its renewal next year?

7. Why won't CheapHostOnline answer my emails?

8. Why won't CheapHostOnline respond to and follow-up on the support tickets I've created on its help desk web page?


...and I could go on and on and on. Every one of the above questions -- I kid you not -- is directly quoted from various messages I've gotten from frustrated, angry, worried, hurt, former FreeHostSpace customers. And I also get one more question:

9. Who do you recommend instead of FreeHostSpace or CheapHostOnline? I can only afford to pay $x per month (where "x" is usually an amount somewhere around $5 to $9 or less for 100 MB of disk space or more).

To question 9 I've not known exactly how I should respond. There are many good hosting companies out there, but few truly good ones in that price range. I've been sending a few of them to DIXIESYS (http://www.dixiesys.com) because I know that Dixiesys's Gary Harris is doing a bang-up job right now and his prices are in that range. Though I offer hosting myself, it's not my primary business. And my prices would not be attractive to former FreeHostSpace customers. Plus I don't want to capitalize on the FreeHostSpace/CheapHostOnline debacle at this point. I need to maintain my dispassion, objectivity and professional distance in case this mess becomes a law suit -- which, in case you hadn't noticed, I'm trying to avoid like the plague.

Of course I'd love to recommend to them that they just stay with CheapHostOnline; that they go ahead and sign-up for one of the special offers available from CheapHostOnline to former FreeHostSpace customers. But when the email asking for help contains a recounting of the seemingly endless unanswered support emails that the person alleges to have sent to CheapHostOnline in the past, it's pretty darned difficult to suggest in good conscience that they stay with CheapHostOnline. I mean, at some point I have to worry about my reputation, and I certainly won't keep it long suggesting that a person stay with a hosting company that does something like that to them. I'm sure you can understand.

Gosh darn it, Elisabeth, you guys are making it painfully difficult for me to be supportive when people are saying things like that about you!

So what's up, Elisabeth? Help me out, here. I've got all these emails from former FreeHostSpace customers who are asking questions exactly like what you see above. How should I answer them?

Hmm? How? Please help me, Elisabeth -- since you don't seem to be tied-up at the moment with the task of "pushing" my client's domain to the eNom account Log-in ID that we've given you -- how do I answer them?

Or are these customers' questions, as you suggested earlier, tantamount to their "squabbling about it like a group of petty highschool girls?"

Originally posted by bteeter
Its easy to transfer your domain to another domain name registrar. All you need to do is prove that you are the owner, which can be in any number of ways - even as simple as responding to a webmaster@yourdomain.com email.

Not if the "registrar lock" is set to "Yes" as CheapHostOnline's Mr. Hall has done to all of the domains registered by former FreeHostSpace customers through his eNom reseller account.

And the password Mr. Hall gives to former FreeHostSpace customers is to eNom's tan, generic interface (http://access.enom.com) which does not permit changing the "registrar lock" setting.

Plus, many of these domain owners do not want to move their domains away from eNom. They like the eNom suite of features (as well they should) and wish to continue to avail themselves of it. They simply want their domain "pushed" out of Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account and into their personal eNom retail account.

To transfer their domains away to another registrar altogether would not only result in these domain owners losing the use of eNom features, but it would also result in their incurring a transfer fee at the transferred-to registrar. If Mr. Hall would use the "push" feature of his eNom reseller acount to "push" the domains of these former FreeHostSpace customers over to the new eNom accounts that many of them have created on eNom's web site, there would be no cost involved. Yet the domain owner would finally have gotten his/her domain name free from CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account -- which is all that most of them want from CheapHostOnline at this point.

Mr. DesElms,
I have not implied anything. I merely stated that I had read your correspondence to CHOL because it was sent to the support desk. The winking icon was a friendly gesture and nothing more...just me being "cute and friendly". You certainly seem to enjoy reading into things!
Could this defensive nature stem from the fact that you are making a bid to get ex-FHS clients to transfer their domains into your enom account?
You have to admit that gives one cause to wonder.

As for my having time to answer to this: you're right--I do not.
Why do you think I have not been participating in this thread until now? My post was made in direct response to Robert--not you, nor anyone else. I do not have the time to answer all of your queries. My responsibility is to take care of clients' requests. As for your original client, I know exactly who he is and which domain name is his. I removed the registrar lock myself after I read your letter several days ago.
I just checked, and his domain has been moved elsewhere. He should not be having any further issues with us. Since you have not made anyone else your client, I see no point in your continuing on with this issue.

While I'm on the subject though, I'll say this:
Since you are a reseller of enom's services, you should know well that the registrar lock status is something that enom applies to all accounts by default. It is a precautionary measure to help prevent any unauthorised individuals from transferring a domain to another registrar.
It does not prevent anyone from changing their nameservers, nor does it change ownership of the domain. That fact should be made clear to everyone involved, rather than trying to make it seem as if the registrar lock is an evil "hijacking" maneuver that CHOL deliberately applied to each and every FHS domain.

Mr. DesElms, I can see that you are an intelligent individual with a high regard for professionalism. I respect the fact that you seem to want to assist, but I feel that if you wish to discuss this topic further you should contact Mr. Hall and take it up with him rather than questioning myself or other members of the tech support staff.
Thank you,
Elisabeth

Originally posted by ThingWraith
Could this defensive nature stem from the fact that you are making a bid to get ex-FHS clients to transfer their domains into your enom account? You have to admit that gives one cause to wonder.

I am making no such bid, and I resent the accusation. Please don't make it, or anything like it, again. State in this public forum only that which is provably true.

I have never suggested that anyone's domain be pushed into my eNom reseller account. Rather, I have, as I will explain in more detail beginning in the next paragraph, suggested that I could use my eNom reseller account to create retail accounts so that eNom domain name owners would have a place -- a target, of sorts -- into which Mr. Hall could "push" their domains from his reseller account and into their retail accounts so they could regain full control of their domains. There is a considerable difference between a domain name being in my eNom reseller account and that same domain being in an eNom retail account created by me via my eNom reseller account. In the case of the former, I have all the control and can only give it to them via the the generic, tan eNom interface (http://access.enom.com) -- as Mr. Hall has things set up right now. In the case of the latter, the domain owner has all the control, which is what they seek. That you do not appear to understand the difference may be at the root of the entire problem. Perhaps you and Mr. Hall do not understand precisely what the sub-account feature of Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account does and how it works.

But let's begin at the beginning...

I began this endeavor by suggesting to former FreeHostSpace customers that they ask Mr. Hall to create retail eNom Log-in IDs (accounts) for them beneath his reseller account, and then to push their domains from his reseller account into their new retail eNom accounts so that they would then have full and complete control of their domains -- including the ability to release the registrar lock if they wanted to get away from eNom altogether, or to then push their domains to yet another eNom account that was not beneath or associated with CheapHostOnline if they so chose.

All who followed that advice later reported to me that their requests were ignored or that rather than doing what they asked of Mr. Hall, they received, instead, from Mr. Hall, a password to the generic, tan eNom interface (http://access.enom.com). This interface, of course, does not allow the customer to have his domain back. It simply allows him or her to control the domain's behavior while it still remains firmly in Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account and, therefore, in his ultimate control.

So they asked me what to do next. I then suggested that perhaps they could make it easier for Mr. Hall by going to eNom's web site and creating their own eNom retail account and then they could email a request to Mr. Hall and ask him to push their domain names from his eNom reseller account and into their new eNom retail account.

So then everyone rushed right out and checked-in to that. But I immediately received replies back pointing out to me that if they signed-up for an eNom retail account, the cost of any domains they registered in the future would be eNom's full retail price of $29.95/year. The reminded me that they had paid somewhat less than that for their domains through FreeHostSpace and that they did not want to pay such a high price. Well... actually, they did not all say that. A handful went ahead and created direct, retail eNom accounts on the eNom web site, and they then emailed Mr. Hall and asked him to push their domains into their new eNom accounts. They reported to me that they received no reply from Mr. Hall. The vast majority of them, however, pointed-out to me that the eNom retail price was higher than they wanted to pay and asked what they could do instead.

Then and only then did I suggest that I could create an eNom retail account for them under my reseller account and that I could set their pricing more in line with what they originally paid at FreeHostSpace; that that would at least give them an eNom account of their own into which Mr. Hall could push their domains when and if he finally agreed to do so.

After that, I explained to them, they were welcome to keep their domains in that account and to control them from there and pay the price I set for them at renewal time or if they registered any additional domains, or they could release the registrar lock and transfer their domains to any other registrar of their choosing. I even suggested to them that once they had their domains in the retail eNom account that I created for them, they could turn around and go sign-up with a different, less expensive eNom reseller and that they would then have the power to push their domains into the accounts created for them at said less expensive eNom resellers. I went to great pains to ensure that everyone understood that the purpose of my creating an eNom account for them was so they could get control back. And I was careful to explain to them that once that had happened, they were in control and could either stay or leave at their option -- unlike the choices they now have with their domains in Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account.

Creating retail eNom accounts beneath my eNom reseller account for any of them was my third choice -- a choice offered only after the first two had failed on account of Mr. Hall's refusal to cooperate with my clients' first two requests. And at every step of the way, I fully disclosed the ramifications and what their choices would be. That's how ethical businesspeople behave.

Originally posted by ThingWraith
As for my having time to answer to this: you're right--I do not.
Why do you think I have not been participating in this thread until now? My post was made in direct response to Robert--not you, nor anyone else.

You posted your pithy response in a public forum -- and one devoted to problems people are having with your company, to boot. You actually expected other forum participants to just leave it alone?

Originally posted by ThingWraith
I do not have the time to answer all of your queries.

Suddenly.

Originally posted by ThingWraith
My responsibility is to take care of clients' requests.

Then please do so. My client (who is also your client) requests that you push his domain name from Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account and into my client's retail eNom account, the Log-in ID of which has been provided to you. Please do so now and let's put an end to all this misery once and for all.

Originally posted by ThingWraith
As for your original client, I know exactly who he is and which domain name is his. I removed the registrar lock myself after I read your letter several days ago.

I think I'm beginning to see the problem, here. Between this comment and the one above, it's becoming clear that you guys don't really know how this eNom account thing works. Perhaps that's why no one can get you to do the specific things with your eNom reseller account that you're being asked to do.

The registrar lock is only something you would release if my client intended to transfer his domain from eNom to another ICANN-approved registrar -- an inter-registrar transfer, if you will. He does not wish such a thing, so please put back his registrar lock immediately so there is no danger that someone at another registrar could swipe it from him.

The process of pushing my client's domain from Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account and into my client's eNom retail account is an intra-registrar transfer of sorts -- and it is something that Mr. Hall must do. The registrar lock has nothing to do with intra-registrar transfers (or, as eNom calls it, "pushing" a domain from one eNom account to another).


(continued in next post...)

Originally posted by ThingWraith
I just checked, and his domain has been moved elsewhere. He should not be having any further issues with us.

Funny. The children's taunt "liar, liar, pants on fire" shot through my brain as I read the above. It's simply not true. Either you've made a mistake or you're just lying right now for... well... I can't imagine why you'd do a stupid thing like that knowing who you're sparring with, here. So I will give you the benefit of the doubt and choose to believe that you've mixed-up his domain name with someone else's. Go back and re-read the letter and see what domain name we're talking about, here. Then please "push" it to the eNom Log-in ID I specified therein.

Originally posted by ThingWraith
Since you have not made anyone else your client,

All I have to do to change that situation is say "yes, I'll take your case" to any of the former FreeHostSpace domain name owners who have contacted me and asked me to help them. I'm holding-off on doing that because I don't want to do this piecemeal. After we get past this client, if I say "yes" to any of them, I'll say "yes" to all and I'll then get their cause certified as a class so we can proceed with a class-action suit. Is that really what you want? Can you not see that I don't want that to happen? Are you not grateful for my restraint and my ever-decreasing patience?

Originally posted by ThingWraith
I see no point in your continuing on with this issue.

Of course I would agree with you if my client's domain had been pushed into his account as requested... which it hasn't. So you're stuck with me for now. And you, alone, possess the power to change that. Ridding yourself of me is but a two-minute "push" procedure away. Just log-in to your eNom reseller account and push my client's domain name into the account of the eNom Log-in ID I specified in my letter.

Originally posted by ThingWraith
you should know well that the registrar lock status is something that enom applies to all accounts by default. It is a precautionary measure to help prevent any unauthorised individuals from transferring a domain to another registrar.
It does not prevent anyone from changing their nameservers, nor does it change ownership of the domain. That fact should be made clear to everyone involved, rather than trying to make it seem as if the registrar lock is an evil "hijacking" maneuver that CHOL deliberately applied to each and every FHS domain.

I'm extremely familiar with how it all works, thank you. As explained above, my client's problem has nothing to do with the registrar lock. In my earlier post, however, I did mention the registrar lock by means of quoting questions regarding it which people are asking me. They know it's locked because they've tried to transfer their domains away from you and eNom to GoDaddy and other places. And they cannot do so because they can neither access the tool to unlock it, nor can they seem to make Mr. Hall do it. I realize that the default setting is "locked." But when a domain owner cannot unlock it, they begin to feel like you're hijacking their domain. Or does that concept escape you?

Originally posted by ThingWraith
Mr. DesElms, I can see that you are an intelligent individual with a high regard for professionalism. I respect the fact that you seem to want to assist, but I feel that if you wish to discuss this topic further you should contact Mr. Hall and take it up with him rather than questioning myself or other members of the tech support staff.
Thank you,
Elisabeth

Oh, gosh.... hmmm... how do I break this to you...

I might be smarter than you think. You see, I know that I just did take it up with Mr. Hall... right here, right now, in this very forum. I know this because English is obviously Elisabeth's second language -- I can tell from her style and the errors she makes. The person who wrote the above post, on the other hand, is a native English speaker and, moreover, it is clearly Tymonhall's style.

Ya' know... I may have been born at night. But I wasn't born last night.

So could we please end this, Mr. Hall? Please?

In the time it took you to check on the status of my client's domain name, you could have pushed it into his personal eNom retail account twice. It only takes a minute or two.

Please do it so I can report to this forum -- both this one and the one in the domains forum, in fact -- that you finally did the right thing and how happy we all are about it. Nothing... trust me... would give me greater pleasure at this point than that.

Then, thereafter, if you start doing the right thing for the other former FreeHostSpace domain owners -- some of whom you have brought to tears, sir -- you will finally be rid of me once and for all. If I see you starting to do the right thing for others, I'll shut-up and go away in a New York second.

Okay? So can we just do that? Let's get this overwith. Please.

Originally posted by DesElms


Not if the "registrar lock" is set to "Yes" as CheapHostOnline's Mr. Hall has done to all of the domains registered by former FreeHostSpace customers through his eNom reseller account.

...

Ouch. I didn't know you could do that! I was under the impression that you could basically switch registrars at will, and that the current registrar couldn't stop you.

Well if that is the case, you may want to look into ICANN's dispute resolution policies. (Something tells me you probably already have...)

Good luck and I hope this works out for you and everyone involved...

Take care,

Brian

Just stating facts, Ms. Elisabeth. Nothing petty. I too was privey to what went down with Freehostspace and Cheaphostonline. I know you too. I received several very unprofessional, curt, and smart eleck responses from you when trying to get help for the Freehostspace customers through your tech support. I see you havent lost your wonderful personality. Sigining off for good and leaving you to your tasks ahead, which I am sure you will handle with the utmost tact that you have displayed to me in so many responses to tech support. This can of worms that you guys opened could have been avoided and Mr. Hall was warned many times about what would happen if he attempted what he did. I have no ill will toward you or Mr. Hall, just wish you guys had of listened and worked harder to get the whole thing resolved, would have been better for everyone concerned.
Robert

ThingWraith
If you are a support tech, how about a little support!
I have been patient but it is wearing thin, it's been almost 3 week's now and I still cannot access my site.
As of last monday I can now access my account manager but not my server admin or ftp site.
I submitted 3 support tickets and sent 3 email reply's, a couple of days ago I received reply's to 2 of the tickets and they didnt tell me anything.
I had planned on staying with CHOL and I still might, this is my last resort, I may have to get a different domain name and host(I realy,realy DONT want to do that).
my domain name is: thegunnersgallery.com

In Mr. DesElms defence I will say he has stressed patience in this matter as he stated in an email to me:

DesELMS' REPLY:
Well, of course, a class action suit -- or any kind of suit, for that
matter -- is the absolute last thing we want to do. If it can be avoided,
we will do so at all costs. We're hoping Mr. Hall will just do the right
thing because... well... because it's the right thing to do. I'd like to
believe that Mr. Hall has a conscience and doesn't really want to hurt
anyone. At least that's our presumption at this point.

We're trying to wait a reasonable period of time to give Mr. Hall a chance
to get caught-up with what must be an overwhelming task of dealing with the
fallout of the FreeHostSpace debacle. We'll see what happens.

And:

Mr. Hall may very well do the right thing in the
end. For now, we need to give him a chance. We must be reasonable if we
expect him to be reasonable. So a short wait for a while longer will not
hurt.

Sorry Gregg, But I dont know how much longer I can wait!

Originally posted by bteeter
Ouch. I didn't know you could do that! I was under the impression that you could basically switch registrars at will, and that the current registrar couldn't stop you.
If you do a WHOIS search on any eNom domain name (and most names registered through other registrars these days), you'll find the following note in the WHOIS record:

Status: REGISTRAR_LOCK
Note: To help prevent malicious domain hijacking and domain transfer errors, the registrant for this domain has chosen to prevent its transfer. Any attempted transfers will be denied at the registry. The apparent authority (registrant) for the name must unlock the name at the current registrar in order for a transfer initiation to succeed.

Indeed the release of the registrar lock is necessary if one intends to transfer one's domain from one ICANN-approved registrar (or its reseller) to another ICANN-approved registrar (or its reseller). This would be an inter-registrar transfer.

In the case of eNom, there is this unique feature that allows an intra-registrar transfer -- from one eNom account to another. eNom refers to it as its "push" feature -- as in "pushing" a domain name from one eNom account to another eNom account.

To do a "push" from one eNom account to another, the registrar lock does not need to be released -- or at least it didn't the last time I pushed a domain, which was a really long time ago. I presume it's still the same today. If not, then I stand corrected. But I'm pretty sure that registrar lock has nothing to do with eNom account-to-account "pushing."

Mr. Hall, of CheapHostOnline, has all of FreeHostSpace's former clients' domain names registered in his reseller account. This is not unusual for resellers. Most eNom resellers do as CheapHostOnline is doing, i.e., they register domain names and said domain names then sit in the reseller's eNom account where the reseller has complete and total control over them. However, the reseller puts the actual domain owner's name and address into the "registrant" field in the domain's WHOIS record. The reseller then gives control of the behavior of the domain to the registrant using the eNom's generic, tan control panel interface (http://access.enom.com).

The "registrar lock" feature is not something that cannot be controlled from the aforementioned eNom generic, tan control panel interface (http://access.enom.com). Changing the registrar lock to the "unlocked" state for a given domain is something that said domain's owner must request his eNom reseller to do for him. And said reseller does so by logging-in to his eNom reseller account on the enom.com web site (http://enom.com) and releasing the registrar lock from there. Thereafter, the registrant is free to transfer his domain to any other registrar he wishes.

And this arrangement has worked out -- and continues to work out -- just fine for thousands of eNom domain owners and the resellers from whom they purchased their eNom domain registration. Of course it works out because the eNom reseller follows the spirit of ICANN's rules and does nothing to stand in the way of the transfer when one is requested. The reseller may be sorry to be losing the customer. The reseller may even email the customer and give it the ol' college try to convince them not to transfer. But ethical eNom resellers (and the vast majority of them are) ultimately do whatever the registrant requests. And that's that.

The alternative is for a person to register his domain directly with eNom. When that happens, he simply opens a retail account on the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/NewAccount.asp?) and registers his domain at eNom's full retail pricing. And by doing so, he may configure and control his domain either via the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp) or via the eNom generic, tan control panel interface (http://access.enom.com). When he uses the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp), he is able to control all features -- including the registrar lock. In fact, a retail eNom customer who creates his own account on the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/NewAccount.asp?) has all the same features that an eNom reseller does, except features reserved for resellers.

If an eNom reseller would like to give one of his customers the same power and control over their domain as the reseller has, all the reseller has to do is use the features of his eNom reseller account to create a "sub-account" right on the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp). The reseller gives the customer a Log-in ID on the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp), assigns a password and then "pushes" the customer's domain name from the reseller's eNom account to the customer's new eNom account.

When this happens, the reseller does not lose the customer. The customer does not become a direct client of eNom. The customer's eNom account remains "beneath" the reseller's eNom account and the reseller continues to derive revenues from any transactions the customer conducts in his reseller-created eNom account. But, when the reseller does this, he does give-up absolute control. The reseller can use his reseller account to see his customer's DNS and other settings so that the reseller can provide support to the customer. But the reseller can no longer change domain settings unless the reseller logs-in to the customer's account using the customer's Log-in ID and password -- which the customer can easily prevent by simply changing his password. And the reseller cannot see what the customer has changed his password to.

This is an excellent way for an eNom reseller to allow his customer to avail himself of all of eNom's features -- including control of the registrar lock -- without the reseller losing the customer to enom directly. It's really very slick.

Then along comes an eNom reseller like CheapHostOnline -- a company whose reseller status with eNom should, in my opinion, be seriously reviewed by eNom at this point, but I digress.

CheapHostOnline has registered hundreds or even thousands of former FreeHostSpace domain names in its reseller account. That's not a bad thing. As I said earlier, hundreds of eNom resellers do the same thing every day and as long as the reseller gives its customers control of their domains' behavior via the eNom generic, tan control panel interface (http://access.enom.com), and as long as the reseller responds to its customers' requests to change settings related to their domain names which cannot be controlled via the eNom generic, tan control panel interface (http://access.enom.com), then everyone is usually pretty darned happy.

But what is a bad thing is when an eNom reseller like CheapHostOnline:

1. Stops being responsive -- as it has done with the former FreeHostSpace customers, or,

2. Refuses or delays giving customers their password to the eNom generic, tan control panel interface (http://access.enom.com) so they can control the behavior of their domains, as it has done with the former FreeHostSpace customers, or,

3. Refuses or delays changing the registrar lock to the "unlocked" state for those who wish to transfer their domains away, as it has done with the former FreeHostSpace customers, or,

4. Refuses or delays creation of Log-in IDs (accounts) directly on the enom.com web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp), and then to "push" the customers' domains into said accounts, as it has done with the former FreeHostSpace customers, or,

5. Refuses or delays "pushing" domains into eNom Log-in IDs (accounts) of the customers' own creation, as it has done with former FreeHostSpace customers, or,

6. Finally -- and perhaps worst of all -- removes the true and rightful domain owners' names and addresses from the "registrant" field in the WHOIS records and replaces them with its own, thereby effectively "hijacking" the domain from its rightful owner, as CheapHostOnline has done with many former FreeHostSpace cusomers.

Those things are a problem! And that's the status of things with CheapHostOnline at the moment.

For those who wish to transfer their domains from an eNom reseller account and from eNom altogether, and whose names and addresses continue to show-up in the "registrant" field of their domains' WHOIS record, the ICANN Domain Name Dispute Resolution procedure is unnecessary. If the reseller will not play by ICANN's rules, eNom itself certainly will. Any domain owner whose name and address shows-up in the WHOIS record and who cannot get CheapHostOnline to release the registrar lock can certainly get eNom to do it for them.

The same would probably hold true for "pushing" a domain. As long as the customer's name and address appears in the "registrant" field in the WHOIS record, and if CheapHostOnline refused to "push" the domain from CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account and into the customer's upon the customer's request, then I suspect eNom would be willing to forcibly do so.

It would only be in the case of a domain whose "registrant" field contains the name of Derrick Hall -- CheapHostOnline's owner -- instead of the rightful registrant who actually paid FreeHostSpace for the domain name, that the ICANN Domain Dispute Resolution Policy might possibly be the rightful domain owner's logical recourse.

In my last reply, I said I was signing off for good, but after reading the problems that Gunner was having with his account I just had to post this. If all of you will read the complaints and problems that the customers are having with tech support, you will see the same problems that we had with tech support at Cheaphostonline. We had to go through them to help our customers on their servers and the non working ids and passwords are the same thing we had to contend with. The long periods of time to get responses were happening long before this mess started with the 6,000 customers. It is all a mess for a lot of people and I hate to see and hear all of this. I still dont understand why Freehostspace was not allowed to host their own site on their own servers to try and stop the DOS attacks that reportedly took our site down and kept us from making any money. I still dont understand why ENOM customers accounts had the registrants information changed to DH Enterprises instead of just the nameservers being changed. I know that happened as one of the former employees of Freehostspace had registered a domain through the Freehostspace ENOM account in March and when Mr. Hall changed his DNS to his servers, he also changed the registrant info from the owner to DH Enterprises. Some 1500 of the accounts that had their DNS and registration information changed to DH Enterprises were on servers located in the Freehostpace data center and had been registered with Freehostspace since February and had never been on the servers belonging to Cheaphostonline and had never been their customer. They were happy as their sites were working and their tech support was being taken care of. Basically, all the problems that the now mad customers were having before the takeover were problems that were created by the tech support at Cheaphostonline and now they just got the problems they created back in their own backyard and as you can read from the current customers still cant handle the tech support or keep up with the customers. Like I said reading the complaints from the customers is like reading the complaints we got for the same things that we could not get them to correct for us. Good luck to all of you and you can continue to listen to excuses or go on and get control of the domain that you should have never lost control of in the first place. Again you can go to yahoo clubs and register for "wewantourdomainsback" and some people in that club have actually come up with links to regain control of their domains and put the registrant information back in their names and gain access to the nameservers.
robert
Former Freehostspace Tech Support

Originally posted by The Gunner
Sorry Gregg, But I dont know how much longer I can wait!
There... you see, Mr. Hall, how your customers who have been contacting me are feeling. And how restless they are -- itching to go to the next logical step. "The Gunner's" posting here was not solicited by me. He was obviously following this thread, read what you wrote, read what I wrote, and posted according to his conscience.

You don't even want to know how many of them have contacted me and are encouraging me to include them in whatever class-action suit might come of all this.

Is that really where you want to take this, Mr. Hall? Do you not realize that your legal fees to defend yourself, alone, will nearly bankrupt you -- or, at the very least, your company?

And do you not realize that, once you force us to go through the rigors of filing suit, it will not stop there? You live and operate your business in the state of Washington -- a state with a very tough and active consumer protection group in the state's Attorney General's (AG's) office. The Washington AG's "High-tech Unit" has, since October of 2000, been going after the owners of web businesses like yours that hurt consumers. I'm on a first name basis with the Washington AG's office. If you don't believe it, go read the "Hosting Nightmare" thread (http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=34067) in these very forums.

Your neighbors, David Lavers and his sons Michael and Andrew -- who are the subjects of the aforementioned thread -- only had 17 complaintants who contacted the AG's office. And their complaints added-up to roughly 70 counts of bad faith violations of the state's Consumer Protection statutes, resulting in nearly $400,000 worth of fines and costs.

You, Mr. Hall, have, by your own counting, some 6,000 complaintants (former FreeHostSpace customers) who are angry with you -- many of them very angry.

Do the math.

If you think I will go to the trouble of organizing a class-action against you, and then fail to also organize the members of that class into a unified, multi-count complaint against you with the Washington AG's office's "High-tech Unit," think again.

But I've been loathe to take that next step, Mr. Hall. Instead, I've encouraged people to patience and restaint. I think you haven't believed it when I've told you that, but witness "The Gunner's" posting and his testiment to the things I have written privately to former FreeHostSpace customers who have contacted me...

Originally posted by The Gunner
In Mr. DesElms defence I will say he has stressed patience in this matter as he stated in an email to me:

DesELMS' REPLY:
Well, of course, a class action suit -- or any kind of suit, for that
matter -- is the absolute last thing we want to do. If it can be avoided, we will do so at all costs. We're hoping Mr. Hall will just do the right thing because... well... because it's the right thing to do. I'd like to believe that Mr. Hall has a conscience and doesn't really want to hurt anyone. At least that's our presumption at this point.

We're trying to wait a reasonable period of time to give Mr. Hall a chance to get caught-up with what must be an overwhelming task of dealing with the fallout of the FreeHostSpace debacle. We'll see what happens.

And:

Mr. Hall may very well do the right thing in the end. For now, we need to give him a chance. We must be reasonable if we expect him to be reasonable. So a short wait for a while longer will not
hurt.
People love to threaten lawsuits, Mr. Hall. We've all seen it a thousand times. And they're usually empty threats. Most people don't really realize how much it costs, how much work it is, and how much time it takes.

I do know. We've done it many times on behalf of clients. And, I must say, we're really, really good at it.

But, as you can plainly see, I have no interest, Mr. Hall, in going there if it can be avoided. None... as should be painfully apparent to you by now.

You may not realize it, but I'm giving you a huge gift, Mr. Hall, by arguing this with you here, in these forums, and trying to convince you here, and not in a court room, to finally just do the right thing for all concerned.

Please take the gift, Mr. Hall. More than taking, please embrace it and accept it and act accordingly. Do the right thing for the former FreeHostSpace customers.

Begin with my client. Push his domain name to the eNom Log-in ID I provided to you. Do it today. Now.

Then move to the next customer and give him or her the control over his/her domain that he/she requests. Then the next. Then the next. And so on and so on and son.

Believe me, Mr. Hall, you will be celebrated for having finally seen the light. Trust me.

Here is a link that may help some of you get your domains back, it has worked for some of the people in the Yahoo club, "wewantourdomainsback" Now, I hope the former customers can see the trouble we went through getting anything done through Cheaphost on their behalf. You are now having to deal with the same problems we dealt with and made us look so bad, you have now found the root of our problem. I am so sorry it had to go that far, but at least you are seeing the truth now.
Here is the link in a message taken from the yahoo club "wewantourdomainsback" message board:


"It appears that the hosting company cheaphostonline.com A.K.A. DH Enterprises has taken over ownership of several thousand domain names that were registered through freehostspace.com. What you need to do is go to this link http://www.enom.com/help/Feedback.asp and fill out the form telling them that you would like to regain ownership of your domain name in order to control your DNS settings. An enom representative will provide you wit h a password to login to your account and regain control. You can also contact, Matt Stearn Vice President eNom, Inc. 16771 NE 80th Street #100 Redmond, WA 98052 425-883-8860 x202 matt@enom.com"

The above message was taken off of the message board of "wewantourdomainsback" and not composed by myself.
thanks,
Robert

Hi,

I've been reading this thread for a while (I prefer to lurk rather than post for the most part) and I received an e-mail that everyone might find interesting...

Why do you want old FHS clients to get a sub-reseller account through you? The price for a domain through enom for a reseller is $6.95 (it starts at 9.95, and lowers after you get enough domains), not $14.95 (which I guess gives you a $5 - $8 profit).

*returns to lurk mode*

From: "Gregg L. DesElms" <@.com>
Organization: The DesElms Consultancy
Reply-To: wewantourdomainsback@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 23 Apr 2002 23:08:51 -0700
To: <wewantourdomainsback@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [wewantourdomainsback] Listen, everyone... I may be able to help!

Dear Members of the "wewantourdomainsback" Group:

My name is Gregg DesElms. I am a management consultant with primary
expertise in computer and telecommunications systems and the Internet. But
my firm also practices in less-technical areas including legislative
development and strategic planning, detection and prevention of specialized
criminal activities, and crisis management and business turnaround services,
just to name three. We have a full-time attorney on staff and she has an
entire law firm on retainer at her displosal. I've been a consultant for 24
years.

In the interest of full disclosure, I must tell you that my firm offers
domain name registration and web hosting, too. But we created our ability
to offer those services not because that's the primary business we want to
be in but, rather, so that our clients who primarily use us for other
purposes would be able to acquire those services from us -- someone they
know and trust -- when and if they should ever require them. Our prices for
hosting, therefore, would probably not be attractive to former FreeHostSpace
customers. I'm not sending this message to try and drum-up business in that
regard. In fact, I will refuse it if it is offered.

What I wanted everyone here to know is that when I looked for a way to
register domain names, I chose eNom as the ICANN registrar for which I
wanted to become a reseller. I did it because of the features. My reseller
price is not by any means the lowest that eNom offers, so I certainly didn't
do it for the price. But I'm one of eNom's earliest resellers -- among
their first half dozen or so, I've been told. They know me very well at
eNom, and I have excellent connections there. I'm not saying I have the
clout to make eNom do something it shouldn't do. But I definitely have
eNom's ear if I need it. And that's a very good thing to have in a
situation like this.

Because people know me as a long-time consultant with a high ethical and
fiduciary sensibility, and a reputation for being someone who can be trusted
(sorry that that doesn't sound very humble, but I'm trying to be direct and
to the point, here), I have been contacted by several former FreeHostSpace
customers who have asked me for help.

To test the position and responsiveness of CheapHostOnline's Mr. Hall -- as
well as to achieve the obvious things set forth in my communications with
him -- I sent a letter to Mr. Hall on behalf of one of those people who
asked me to formally represent him in this matter. He made this request
knowing that we do this sort of thing fairly frequently, and the full-time
attorney on my staff allows me to make good on my threat of legal action as
simple as my walking down the hall to her office and directing her to draft
a complaint. So, though I'm not an attorney, I get to threaten like one
(not that threatening is best way to do it, mind you... I'm simply making
the point).

An excerpt of the letter I sent to Mr. Hall on behalf of this client is
provided below. I encourage everyone in this group to read it carefully
because it may help you to see your situation and your options more clearly.


---- BEGIN LETTER EXCERPT ----
<letter removed to avoid redundancy>
---- END LETTER EXCERPT ----


Mr. Hall has finally responded to this letter and is now asking me what he
can do to make everything right. Mr. Hall has claimed in public forums and
in private communications with me that he has no intention of "hijacking"
anyone's domain names; that he is so swamped with the support demands of
what he alleges are the 6,000 or so former FreeHostSpace clients that he
simply can't keep up, but that he'll eventually make everyone happy.

I've read in messages from this group and elsewhere that such claims from
Mr. Hall should not be believed; that he is a nefarious character who cannot
be trusted; and that one should run far and fast from him and
CheapHostOnline.

I have no idea if any of that is true or not. Nor do I care, to be candid.
I've read both sides of the FreeHostSpace story and there are compelling
parts of both. But one thing I *do* know is that Mr. Hall will respond
better to being treated with dignity and respect than if he is derided in
personal messages or in public forums. If we can all work together and
funnel communications through one point person (and I guess I'm proposing
that it be me), it will probably be easier to work with both Mr. Hall and,
if it comes to that, eNom.

Some of you have created personal retail Log-in IDs on the eNom web site so
that when and if Mr. Hall finally gets around to it (or if eNom is willing
to do it for you), your domains can be "pushed" from Mr. Hall's reseller
account into your personal retail account. Once that happens, the domain is
yours and yours alone and Mr. Hall can no longer affect or control the
behavior of it.

However, as many of you have noted, when you create your own Log-in ID
directly on the eNom web site, your domain name prices (should you ever
decide to register additional domain names) are eNom's full retail prices of
$30 to $50 per year. And some of you are obviously put off by that.

Recognizing that these prices may have made some of you hesitant to pursue
this option, I am hereby offering two things that I think will help:

1. If you will specifically authorize me to represent you
in this matter, I will do my level best to achieve a
satisfactory outcome for you, whether it is by means
of finally getting Mr. Hall to do the right thing, or whether
it's by means of getting eNom to override Mr. Hall and do
the right thing in his stead, or whether it's by means of
including you in a suit against Mr. Hall, if it ever comes
to that.

2. If you will send me certain information about yourself
(name, address, phone, etc.) I will use it to create a
Log-in ID directly on eNom's web site -- a log-in ID that
will give you a retail eNom account that is exactly like
the kind you can get by going to the eNom site and
creating an account yourself, except for the following
difference: Your pricing will be about half of what eNom
charges. As an eNom reseller, I can control what price
you get. And my price for you for .com, .net and .org
domains through eNom is $14.95/year (eNom's price
is $29.95/year).

<wow... it was so long I have to put the rest in another post!>

<letter continued.. *whew*>

The eNom account that I can create for you will give you a place to which
Mr. Hall (or eNom if that's who we end-up having do it) can "push" your
domain. Domain "pushing," for those of you who don't know about it, is a
feature unique to eNom. It's sort of like a domain transfer, but its an
intra-registrar transfer from one eNom account to another eNom account, as
opposed to an inter-registrar transfer that would be like transferring from
eNom to, say, GoDaddy or one of the other ICANN-approved registrars. The
former is free. The latter has an additional fee associated with it. Plus,
if you transfer your domain away from eNom -- no matter whose account it's
in -- you lose-out on a raft of features found nowhere else.

So getting your domain name "pushed" from Mr. Hall's eNom reseller account
and into an eNom account that is under *your* control is by far the best and
cheapest solution. Plus, frankly, eNom's suite of features for its domain
owners is far superior to all others, in my opinion. And, believe me, I've
researched it thoroughly. So it pays for you to keep your domain name at
eNom, but just not via Mr. Hall's eNom account. And using the eNom account
that I can create for you, you can now achieve this without having to pay
eNom's full retail prices.

"What's in this for you?" you might ask. The answer is two-fold:

Firstly, and again in the interest of full disclosure, make no mistake about
it: As an eNom reseller who is creating an eNom retail account for you, I
will make a buck or two from any domain names you register in the future
using that account. But I will make nothing from the act of creating the
account for you or from the event of your domain name being pushed into it.
That part of it will be free to you and profitless for me. And I'm doing
that mostly because of the second reason...

Secondly, and perhaps more importantly, I'm trying to right a wrong, here.
As a domain registrar reseller, I'm angered by this situation. This sort of
debacle kills trust and hurts everyone on all sides of the issue. I have a
capability (creating eNom accounts for everyone) that costs me nothing to
offer. And if I write just one letter to Mr. Hall on behalf of many
hundreds or even thousands of people whom I can list therein, I end-up being
able to help all of them for little more work than I would normally have to
do to help just one. So for me, this is easy and something I can do for
free. If and when it becomes a class-action suit, then we'll need to
re-examine our situation and figure out if there will be extra costs and
what they would be. But we can cross that bridge when we come to it -- if
we come to it. Personally, I believe Mr. Hall will eventually do the right
thing. I am treating him with respect and understanding. And he is
responding. And even if he eventually refuses to cooperate, there are other
avenues we can take -- one of which, I'm certain, will result in a positive
outcome for all concerned.

Your eNom retail account under my eNom reseller account will afford you
complete control over your domain name. Instead of using only the tan
http://access.enom.com interface, you'll also be able to control your
domain right on the eNom web site, using the Log-in ID and password that I
give you. And the password you can change once you log-in the first time.
Once you change that password, I cannot control your account in any way. I
can use my account to see your DNS and other settings so I can provide
support to you if you need it. But I cannot see your personal settings or
credit card information or your password or anything of that nature. And I
can't change anything unless you let me. The way Mr. Hall currently has
things set up for you, he can control everything -- including changing your
name to his in the "Registrant" field... which I notice some of you have
accused him of doing. The way I would set it up for you, I would have no
such control unless you specifically gave it to me.

The eNom retail account that I can give you will also let you avail yourself
of eNom features that are not accessible or controllable using the tan
http://access.enom.com interface to which Mr. Hall and/or eNom's support
staff has directed you -- features like "Name My Phone" or "Name My Map" or
POP3 email, etc. And, perhaps most importantly for those of you who are so
put off by it all that you want to move your domain to another registrar
altogether, it will let you control the "registrar lock" feature so that if
you *do* decide you want to transfer your domain away to GoDaddy or Stargate
or any other registrar, you can.

Begin the process by sending an email to @.com and telling
me that you're interested. Specify the domain name in question and give me
a very brief summary -- just a paragraph or two -- describing what's
happened so far. I will then send you an email detailing the information I
will need from you and how the process will work in detail. Within a day or
so of when I receive an email back from you with the information requested
(which, incidentally will *not* include your credit card information), your
direct eNom retail account Log-in and password will be sent to you,
whereupon you may log-in, change the password, enter your credit card and/or
other data, and then begin registering domain names. Or you may simply let
the account sit there while you wait for your existing domain to transferred
into it.

Mr. Hall is already aware that I represent at least one former FreeHostSpace
customer. And he has responded. And Mr. Hall also knows that I have heard
from many, many more. I'm not saying he fears me (though were I in his
shoes, I would certainly not ignore me). But I am saying that I at least
have his attention. And even if I don't, I believe I can still resolve your
problems using a variety of other means.

SPECIAL NOTE: The gentleman in this group who says he's a former
FreeHostSpace employee -- and who claims he has a list of 4,000 former
FreeHostSpace cutomers -- is welcome to copy and paste this message and send
it to all of them. (Please don't forward... rather, use the copy/paste
technique so the little ">" characters won't be at the beginning of each
line.) I will help them, one and all, if they will simply contact me and
request it. And the more people for whom I am speaking, the more clout I
will have on your behalf -- with Mr. Hall, with eNom and, if it comes to it,
with the courts.

If you would like to pursue this with my help, please send me an email
message and we'll move forward from there. If not, that's fine, too.

Either way, thanks, and good luck to you all.

<<MOD NOTE: Removed 'signature' and email address>>

Originally posted by kigai88
I've been reading this thread for a while (I prefer to lurk rather than post for the most part) and I received an e-mail that everyone might find interesting...

Why do you want old FHS clients to get a sub-reseller account through you? The price for a domain through enom for a reseller is $6.95 (it starts at 9.95, and lowers after you get enough domains), not $14.95 (which I guess gives you a $5 - $8 profit).

[sigh]

kigai88, why do you post this here as if you have discovered some "dirt" on me or my motives? Don't get me wrong... I don't mind that you've posted it here. It's an open letter that I posted to an entire group. It's no secret.

But there's no smoking gun, here. I thought I had made my motives very clear. Let's see if by my repeating it in yet another way it finally sinks in for you...

I am not trying to induce former FreeHostSpace clients to get a sub-reseller account through me so that I can then make some kind of profit. I'm offering to let them do so as a means of helping them ultimately wrest control of their domains from CheapHostOnline's reseller account; to give them an eNom account into which Mr. Hall can "push" their domains, for free, when and if he ever decides to do the right thing. It would be "target" of sorts.

And some kind of "target" is needed. Without some kind of eNom direct Log-in ID (account) to which Mr. Hall may "push" a domain name, Mr. Hall (or eNom itself, if that's who ends-up doing it -- by force if need be) has no means of giving full control of said domain back to the former FreeHostSpace client while still keeping the domain registered at eNom.

And that's the operative phrase: "...while still keeping at enom."

Of course the former FreeHostSpace client can transfer his or her domain completely away from eNom altogether and, by doing so, wrest control of his or her domain away from Mr. Hall. (That is, assuming that either Mr. Hall or eNom releases the registrar lock.)

But I'm talking about a way to help former FreeHostSpace clients wrest control of their domains from Mr. Hall's clutches while still keeping it registered at eNom. And for that, the former FreeHostSpace client must have an eNom Log-in ID (account) into which Mr. Hall may "push" the domain from his reseller account.

Former FreeHostSpace clients are free to go directly to the eNom web site and create their own eNom Log-in IDs (accounts) for this purpose. But if they do, the price they pay per domain per year for renewals and future registrations is significantly higher than what they already paid FreeHostSpace -- $29.95/year, to be precise.

Most former FreeHostSpace clients find that price off-putting. It's a fair price, actually. eNom's retail prices are perfectly reasonable. But many former FreeHostSpace clients are shocked by it, considering what they paid.

So I offered to create eNom Log-in IDs (accounts) using my eNom reseller account, and to set their pricing closer to what they paid FreeHostSpace in the first place so that if they did decide to leave their domain name in the account that I created for them, their renewal price would not knock them off their chairs.

But that was not the real purpose. That which is described above would only be an eventuality if, and only if, they left their domain in the account I created for them once Mr. Hall has "pushed" it there.

This is the important point that you seem to be missing.

So pay close attention to the words: ...if, and only if, the former FreeHostSpace client ends-up keeping his or her domain in the account that I create for him/her once it's been pushed there by Mr. Hall.

If that happens, then, yes, at the expiration of the term of their domain registration, it would renew at the $14.95 price that I set for them. And, yes, I would derive some kind of profit at that time -- not as much as you state by the time the credit card charges and my not-as-low-as-you-think wholesale price is factored-in -- but, yes, a profit nonetheless. And I fully disclosed that in my letter and I have made no secret of it anywhere else.

Additionally, if the former FreeHostSpace clients should happen to use the eNom accounts that I create for them to register any new domains, they would be charged the $14.95 to which you refer, above. And, yes, again, there would be a small profit in that fee for me. And, again, I have made no secret of that.

But, again (and again and again), all of that is only IF the former FreeHostSpace client decides to leave his or her domain in the eNom account that I create for him or her after Mr. Hall has "pushed" it there. The operative word, there, is "if."

On the other hand, if the former FreeHostSpace clients use the features of the account that I create for them to either "push" their domains to yet another, lower-priced eNom account somewhere; or to release the registrar lock so they may transfer the domains away from eNom altogether, then I derive no revenue from any of it.

Yet, were that to happen, and despite my having derived no revenue or profit whatsoever, the former FreeHostSpace client will have finally wrested his domain from the clutches of CheapHostOnline and Derrick Hall. And that was the whole point in the first place!

Read carefully:

The $14.95 price to which you refer only becomes a factor if the former FreeHostSpace customer keeps and uses the account rather than simply utilizing it as an interim step and then "pushing" or transferring out of it once he or she has the tools to do so which are provided therein.

That, in a single paragraph -- a single sentence, in fact -- is, when you think about it, the entire answer to your question. So please re-read it and make sure you understand it because I'm sure getting tired of re-stating it.

I'm offering the account as an interim step. For the use of the account as an interim step, I derive no revenue or profit. Period.

However, once the former FreeHostSpace customers have their domains in the accounts that I can create for them, they will finally see the full power of eNom and all of its features -- far more and better features than most registrars out there are offering. And if they shop around, they'll see that the $14.95/year price for all those features is very competitive.

Upon realizing this, and having learned of the true power of an eNom account, there is not doubt in my mind that some former FreeHostSpace customers will just stay with the account that I created for them. And, if so, then, sure, I will have gained a customer. But that's gravy, in this case. That's not the point, here. It's a added benefit for me, to be sure, but it's not a crime.

I'm offering to help up to 6,000 (if Mr. Hall's numbers are to be believed) former FreeHostSpace customers obtain a temporary eNom Log-in ID (account) so that Mr. Hall will have a "target" into which to push their domains when and if he ever gets a conscience and agrees to do so. And if he doesn't, then eNom will, no doubt, do it for him... by force, if need be. But I digress.

For that service, I am charging nothing. And former FreeHostSpace customers will pay nothing -- to anyone.

Thereafter, once they have their domains in the accounts I provide them, they can "push" or transfer them away and that will be that. No cost to them whatsoever.

Are you saying that you do not see that as a nice, free service that I am providing out of the goodness of my heart?

If, once they have the accounts and see their power, utility and economy, the former FreeHostSpace customers decide that, by golly, the accounts I created for them are pretty nice after all, then of course I will begin to derive a profit from them!

Are you saying that I, by then, would not have earned the paultry buck or two [i](or, even if we went by your inflated numbers, $5 to $8) profit per domain per year that would then come my way from those former FreeHostSpace clients who decided to leave their domains in the accounts I created for them?

Are you saying that I would not, by then, have earned their loyalty and that they would be out of line to leave their domains in those accounts as a way of saying "Thanks for helping me get my domain away from CheapHostOnline?"

That is all they're trying to do, you know... just get their domains away from Derrick Hall -- a man whom they perceive to be unethical and whom they consider to be holding their domain names hostage or, worse, to have "hijacked" them outright.

All I'm doing is offering a way for them to do that... for free, if they wish it. Or with a small profit to me if they'll allow it. The choice will be entirely theirs.

Are you suggesting that I'm being too self-interested, kigai88?

Please do not impugn my integrity any more. I have worked too hard and too long to have someone accuse me of impropriety at this point in my life. I've been a consultant for nearly a quarter of a century. I live by a code of ethics that is more important to me than any other vow I have taken. I am careful about potential conflicts of interest or even the appearance of impropriety. I fully disclose -- often at my own peril. And, bygod, I've paid my dues. I don't deserve to have my motives questioned in the manner in which you've done so here. So please stop it.

Thank you for taking the time to understand this.

(Jesus... my mother was right... no good deed goes unpunished.)

One more question for CHOL..

If you are trying to support us, then why do I no longer have "permission" to enter the login page at the support desk?

I'd have sent an email, but this seems to be the only place we can get any word from you!

Please cancel my "the-lib.com" account, I've already bought a new domain & reopened the site elsewhere! (you'll find a ticket at the Billing section #8899)

I haven't felt a need to join Mr DesElms group yet & I'd rather not have to, but I too am running short on patience.

..please see to this cancelation before you send out another "invoice"

thank you

Bryan

kigai88, why do you post this here as if you have discovered some "dirt" on me or my motives? Don't get me wrong... I don't mind that you've posted it here. It's an open letter that I posted to an entire group. It's no secret.

Uh... because you got angry and denied it in a previous post, and because this wasn't posted here. I think I'm free to publish what I want in relevance to the subject, and it seems like it is to me.

But there's no smoking gun, here. I thought I had made my motives very clear. Let's see if by my repeating it in yet another way it finally sinks in for you...

Man, aren't you getting sick of repeating yourself yet? I don't think there is any way that you could re-word this to paint yourself as a good samaritan, but alas I'm sure you will try. *gets out the tylenol extra strength*

I don't really see how this is going to help anyone. Whether a person has their domain pushed into your account, or just transfers to another registrar, they *still* have to get Cheaphostonline/tymonhall/whoever to help them. If they transfer to another registrar, they have to pay to do it. If they first move it yours, then transfer it to another registrar, they *still* have to pay to move it - it's just that much more complicated having to move from one account to another, and then transfer. However, if they decide to stay in your account (which would seem like the easiest thing), then who makes some money?

Judging from some of the e-mails I saw from ex-FHS clients, some of them seem to think of you as a "shark circling the water". Not to mention they were not too fond of a person practicing law without a license.

It must take you hours to paste in chunks of your previous posts and e-mails to make new messages. How do you still have time to run your consultancy firm? Actually, why don't you save your time and not bother replying. I know what I see and you won't convince me otherwise.

Originally posted by rob76112
Here is a link that may help some of you get your domains back, it has worked for some of the people in the Yahoo club, "wewantourdomainsback":

"It appears that the hosting company cheaphostonline.com A.K.A. DH Enterprises has taken over ownership of several thousand domain names that were registered through freehostspace.com. What you need to do is go to this link http://www.enom.com/help/Feedback.asp and fill out the form telling them that you would like to regain ownership of your domain name in order to control your DNS settings. An enom representative will provide you wit h a password to login to your account and regain control. You can also contact, Matt Stearn Vice President eNom, Inc. 16771 NE 80th Street #100 Redmond, WA 98052 425-883-8860 x202 matt@enom.com"
That procedure, as described above, will give you a password to the generic, tan eNom control panel interface (http://access.enom.com) where, indeed, you may completely configure your domain name's basic behavior. But it will leave your domain name in CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account. And it will not allow you to have access to or control over many of the features that come with every eNom registration -- including the ability to release the registrar lock so you may transfer your domain to another ICANN-approved registrar, if that's your inclination.

As long as that's okay with you, then the above procedure is absolutely the right thing to do. It will leave your domain name in the eNom reseller account of CheapHostOnline, but with you having control over it's behavior. CheapHostOnline will continue to have ultimately control over the domain and can change your password or your registrant information at any time.

Now, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Most eNom resellers do it that way. And everyone is usually happy. The issue is trust. As a former FreeHostSpace customer, knowing what you know, and having seen what you've seen, do you truly trust CheapHostOnline to be the keeper of your domain name?

If so, then by all means, go with the above procedure. And I make that statement not intending for it to sound flip or sarcastic. I'm serious: CheapHostOnline customers who are happy with CheapHostOnline should definitely stay there. I do not mean to suggest otherwise.

But anyone who would like to get full control of his or her domain back; to get it completely out of CheapHostOnline's reseller account, yet still keep the domain at eNom so that he or she would be able to avail themselves of the full suite of eNom features, would need to do a bit more than the above procedure. He or she would need to have an eNom Log-in ID that would allow him/her to log-in to the enom web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp) directly. Then he or she would need to request of CheapHostOnline that it please "push" his/her domain name from its reseller account and into his/her eNom Log-in ID (account).

Once done, he or she would then have access to the full range of eNom features -- including features not accessible via the generic, tan eNom control panel interface (http://access.enom.com).

If you're happy with CheapHostOnline and would like to stay its customer, but if you would like to avail yourself of the full range of eNom features, you can request an eNom Log-in ID from CheapHostOnline. Along with creating your new eNom account for you, CheapHostOnline would then also "push" your domain name into it. Thereafter, you would have full control of your domain name -- including the ability to release the registrar lock so you can transfer it elsewhere if you wish (something it's not likely you'll do once you realize how powerful an eNom account is). Or you can "push" your domain to any other eNom account -- including one you create at another eNom reseller whose price is better, whom you trust more, or for whatever other reason you wish to remove your domain from the account the CheapHostOnline could create for you.

Some former FreeHostSpace customers have made the request you see explained in the preceding paragraph and have received no reply from CheapHostOnline. This, coupled with other things these customers know about CheapHostOnline, has made them want to keep their domain names registered at eNom, but just not in an account that is in any way connected with CheapHostOnline. They simply no longer trust CheapHostOnline.

Those customers may get an eNom account directly from eNom by pointing their browsers at https://www.enom.com/NewAccount.asp and creating a new account. Thereafter, the price they pay for any new domain registrations or renewals when using that account will be eNom's regular retail price of $29.95 per year (for .com, .net or .org).

Since many former FreeHostSpace customers find that price quite a bit higher than what they originally paid for their domain from FreeHostSpace, another option would be for them to find another eNom reseller somewhere out there whom they do trust and whose price they can accept, and get said reseller to create an eNom Log-in ID that would work directly on the enom web site (https://www.enom.com/Login.asp).

Whichever method they choose -- whether as described in the paragraph immediately above, or as described in the one above that -- the former FreeHostSpace customer would then need to convince CheapHostOnline to "push" his or her domain name from CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account and into the former FreeHostSpace customer's new eNom account that was created using methods described in either of the two paragraphs immediately above this one.

If CheapHostOnline refuses to do this (and so far it has been), then I suspect that if one goes to the eNom "feedback" URL described by rob76112, above, and requests it, eNom will probably forcibly "push" one's domain from CheapHostOnline's eNom reseller account and into one's new eNom account created using one of the methods above.

But this would only be true if a person could convince eNom's support dept that the domain in question is truly his or her property. As long as his or her name and address is in the "registrant" field of the domain's WHOIS record, that should be no problem. But if not, then eNom's support staff will surely hesitate -- perhaps even refuse.

Some former FreeHostSpace customers are complaining that CheapHostOnline's owner, Derrick Hall, has placed his own name or that of his company's (D.H. Enterprises) into the "registrant" field of their domain names, thereby depriving them of their ownership thereof. They are alleging that Mr. Hall has "hijacked" their domain names.

Former FreeHostSpace customers with that particular problem may not find that eNom will be as willing to help. It will depend, I think, on what kind of proof the former FreeHostSpace customer can provide to eNom that he or she is, indeed, the rightful owner of the domain and that someone at CheapHostOnline changed the registrant information against their will.

If the former FreeHostSpace customers cannot prove that they own the domain name, they may be forced to avail themselves of the ICANN Domain Dispute Resolution Procedure (http://www.enom.com/help/drp.asp) -- an often time-consuming and usually costly procedure.


There, kigai88... was that explanation sufficiently lacking in self-interest?

Originally posted by kigai88
Uh... because you got angry and denied it in a previous post, and because this wasn't posted here. I think I'm free to publish what I want in relevance to the subject, and it seems like it is to me.
You didn't answer my question. I didn't ask why you posted here. I asked, and I quote: "Why do you post this here as if you have discovered some 'dirt' on me or my motives?"

Did you just miss the second part of that question, or did you deliberately choose to ignore it so you could make a point where there isn't one to be made?

And because I got angry and denied what in a previous post? What precisely are you saying I got angry about and denied?

Originally posted by kigai88
I don't think there is any way that you could re-word this to paint yourself as a good samaritan
Then what would you call it? I'm offering former FreeHostSpace customers an interim step that costs them nothing and profits me nothing...

...that is, unless they decide to never move their domain from the account which I create for them. At that point, if they do any future business in that account then, yes, I would make a small and reasonable profit... which I fully disclosed in every place that I've ever written anything about this.

If they choose not to allow that, they are free to move on with no cost to them. But, in the process, they will have regained control of their domain name.

How is that unethical in any way? And why is the first part of it -- the part where I create a free, no-obligation "catcher's mitt" of sorts which they can use to "catch" their domain name when and if Mr. Hall finally "pushes" it there -- not an act of generosity on my part?

Of course I never called it that in any of my original messages, or made as big a deal of it as you're now making it, thereby moving the focus off of the fact that I'm just trying to help and, instead, trying to make it appear as though I am self-aggrandizing or self-interested. And that really irritates me... which I'm sure was your goal. But that's alright. You wanna' spar? Fine, let's spar.

Originally posted by kigai88
I don't really see how this is going to help anyone. Whether a person has their domain pushed into your account, or just transfers to another registrar, they *still* have to get Cheaphostonline/tymonhall/whoever to help them.
Apparently you're so eager to fire-off complaints and criticism that you're not taking the time to read what I've written elsewhere in this thread. Either that or you just can't get your brain wrapped around it.

CheapHostOnline isn't helping them, is it? Or did you miss that part? This means that they'll probably have to get eNom to do, forcibly, whatever it is that CheapHostOnline should have done. I'd say that's a given at this point, unless Mr. Hall surprises us and suddenly has a belated attack of conscience.

If they transfer their domain elsewhere -- to another ICANN-approved registrar -- then, yes, it may be as simple as them asking eNom to forcibly release the registrar lock so they can just move the domain over to GoDaddy or wherever else they wish.

But what about domain owners who wish to stay with eNom, but who just don't want their domains in any account that has anything to do with CheapHostOnline or Derrick Hall or anyone affiliated therewith?

Then what?

Hmm?

Originally posted by kigai88
If they transfer to another registrar, they have to pay to do it. If they first move it yours, then transfer it to another registrar, they *still* have to pay to move it - it's just that much more complicated having to move from one account to another, and then transfer.
Since I know how much you enjoy me repeating myself, I'll favor you now with another incident thereof:

If they transfer their domain elsewhere -- to another ICANN-approved registrar -- then, yes, it may be as simple as them asking eNom to forcibly release the registrar lock so they can just move the domain over to GoDaddy or wherever else they wish.

And I'll now I add:

But what if, as someone who is experienced with this sort of thing and who has seen many clients make rash decisions that they later regretted, I wanted them to first know the power of having a full-featured eNom Log-in ID rather than just the domain name password to the tan, generic eNom control panel interface? What if I wanted them to become familiar with the full-featured eNom interface accessible from the eNom web site before they rushed off without looking and transferred their domain to someplace like GoDaddy, as you seem to suggest they should do? What if I, with my experience, felt that they would be shooting themselves in the foot to do so and I wanted to give them a place where they could have full control of their domain, safe from Derrick Hall or CheapHostOnline, while still permitting them to become familiar with the complete eNom package before they moved away to another registrar? And what if I knew I could do all of that for them without it costing them a red cent?

By moving their domain from Mr. Hall's reseller account and into their own direct eNom account with their own eNom Log-in ID, they would be moving from a place of extremeley limited control and being at the mercy of Mr. Hall, to a place where they, alone, controlled everything -- including the ability to release the registrar lock themselves so they could move over to GoDaddy or wherever if the then decided to. And while the domain was in their own eNom account, they could become familiar with the true and full suite of eNom features so they could make an informed decision about GoDaddy or any other registrar.

Are you suggesting that when I offered to help, I should only have helped a little and not a lot?

Originally posted by kigai88
However, if they decide to stay in your account (which would seem like the easiest thing), then who makes some money?
Me.

Is that answer direct enough for you, Sparky? And what part of the first 500 times that I disclosed it did you not understand?

Moreover, why are you trying to make it sound unethical and portray it as something that everyone else didn't understand when they read it the first 500 times?

Are you saying that if they left their domains in the free, no-obligation accounts that I created for them to help them wrest control of said domains from Mr. Hall, and if they then begin transacting business using said accounts, I should give that away, too? Offering them a highly-competitive price -- not bargain basement, I realize, but certainly right in there with most everyone else -- for those transactions, should they decide to conduct them at a later date, was not enough for you?

Originally posted by kigai88
Judging from some of the e-mails I saw from ex-FHS clients, some of them seem to think of you as a "shark circling the water."
(So there will be no confusion for the reader, here, kigai88 is referring to a single posting in the "wewantourdomainsback" group in the Groups/Clubs area of the Yahoo web site.)

I responded to that thoughtless post in the Yahoo group. Maybe you missed it. Perhaps you should go back and check it out. Much of what I said there, I've said in various places in this thread. If you didn't get it over in the Yahoo group, you're certainly not gonna' get it here.

Some things just aren't worth repeating.

Originally posted by kigai88
Not to mention they were not too fond of a person practicing law without a license.
(Again, kigai88 exaggerates. There is no "they." He refers to a single posting -- probably from him, truth be known -- in the "wewantourdomainsback" group in the Groups/Clubs area of the Yahoo web site.)

My firm uses the law every day. In fact, my firm's Legislative Development and Strategic Planning group helps people to draft laws. I, personally, have developed language that has been passed into law in several states. We know the law and understand it very, very well, here.

No one is practicing law without a license, here. No legal line has been crossed. Perhaps you should consult the law for a definition of the phrase "the practice of law" before you make such an unfounded accusation.

Originally posted by kigai88
It must take you hours to paste in chunks of your previous posts and e-mails to make new messages.
Mmm.... no, actually, it doesn't. But thanks for your concern.

Sorry it takes you so long, though.... I mean.... you're projecting, right?

Originally posted by kigai88
How do you still have time to run your consultancy firm?
Well... what can I say? I do. By the way... you're projecting, again... right?

Originally posted by kigai88
Actually, why don't you save your time and not bother replying.
Were we not in a public forum, you wouldn't have had to invite me not to reply. But I won't allow your misguided musings go unchallenged before the reader. So here we are.

Originally posted by kigai88
I know what I see and you won't convince me otherwise.
Now that's what I like to see: An open mind. Nothing betrays a man's foolishness faster than an unmitigatingly stupid declaration like that. Bravo!

Now, Mr. Ha... er... I mean, kigai88... your feeble attempt to move the focus of this thread off CheapHostOnline's bad acts is over. Can we please get back on topic? What can you offer this thread that will instruct the 4,000 to 6,000 persons hurt by this debacle?

I have read here and in other forums where Mr. Deselms is characterized as a "circling shark", I'm sorry but I just dont see it that way, from the start of this mess he has at the very least kept me informed of what is going on, and at told me all of my options.

The last option he offered was to create an account with him and he was up front in saying that yes he would make some money if I decided to stay with him($8.96/yr to be exact). And he stressed that if I found a better deal then by all means go with them and that I could use the account created by him at Enom, for free, as a temporary place to have my domain name "pushed" to till I found a place more suitable. and he only offered me these options after I emailed him, he did not come to me and he never sent me emails bugging me to go with his service nor have I seen him spam on these boards like I have seen others do.

Since I have decided to keep my domain name with Enom and NOT to have my domain name hosted by the same people that hosts my website, I have decided to take him up on his offer. I feel it's the least I can do for Mr.Deselms being the "Spokesperson" in this matter.

The Gunner

Originally posted by The Gunner
The last option he offered was to create an account with him and he was up front in saying that yes he would make some money if I decided to stay with him ($8.96/yr to be exact).

Oh, my... I wish I made $8.96 on a domain name!

To the reader: First of all, the operative phrase, there, was, "...if I decided to stay with him." And even then, that's a price that he would be charged only if he can get his domain "pushed" from CheapHostOnline's eNom account and into this new eNom account I have created for him, and then only when his domain renews. Of course, if he also used the account to purchase additional domains, he would also be charged, obviously. For now, however, just to create the account and to have it available as a "target," of sorts, into which CheapHostOnline may "push" his domain, there is no charge.

Once The Gunner gets his domain moved (or "pushed," to use eNom's term for it) from CheapHostOnline's eNom account into his new eNom account, he's free to then move the domain anywhere he wishes -- be it to another eNom account of his choosing, or to another registrar altogether if that's his wish. And he'll be able to do this because once his domain is in that account, he, finally, is the one with total and exclusive control over it. And even for that he pays nothing to me. Not one thin dime.

As for the "$8.96" reference: The Gunner, I think, is referring to the difference between what I charge ($14.95/year for a registration, renewal or transfer) and what big ICANN-approved registrars like eNom, Register.com and others pay for a domain name... which is around six bucks -- something that is fairly common knowledge among registrars and others who pay attention to the domain registration industry, and which I disclosed to The Gunner in my private email to him. But big registrars then turn around and mark that price up (as well they should) and sell to resellers at an obviously higher rate. Most eNom resellers pay $9 or $10 -- plus credit card charges. Very large volume eNom resellers can, by virtue of their volume, get the price down to $8 or thereabouts. I believe there are some very, very large volume eNom resellers who still enjoy the $7 price that eNom was offering almost any reseller in the first year or so of its existence. I am unaware of any eNom resellers getting a better price than that (although I suppose anything's possible). As an eNom reseller, I have relatively no volume, to speak of -- at least not when compared with many other eNom resellers. So that should tell you about what I pay. I primarily offer the service to clients who hire us for other purposes and who, in the course of working with us, happen to mention that they need such a service. That's it. I offer web hosting for the same reason, basically -- which is why I have no web sites that are dedicated to offering either service exclusively like so many others in these forums. It's just not my primary bread and butter.

All that having been said... and this is not an announcement or anything (not that anyone would care if it were), but... there is now a web site/online business idea (and that's all it is at the moment) in the works that might change all that in the not too distant future. But who knows when... or even if.

Originally posted by The Gunner
And he stressed that if I found a better deal then by all means go with them and that I could use the account created by him at Enom, for free, as a temporary place to have my domain name "pushed" to till I found a place more suitable. and he only offered me these options after I emailed him, he did not come to me and he never sent me emails bugging me to go with his service nor have I seen him spam on these boards like I have seen others do.

Since I have decided to keep my domain name with Enom and NOT to have my domain name hosted by the same people that hosts my website, I have decided to take him up on his offer. I feel it's the least I can do for Mr.Deselms being the "Spokesperson" in this matter.

The Gunner
Well, thanks for the... um... endorsement, I guess! :)

Good luck with your new eNom Log-in ID. Naturally, I hope you keep and use it, but once you get your domain pushed into it -- er, that is, if you can get your domain pushed into it -- you will have total control of it, so you can take it with you anywhere... as promised.

Which is a heck of a lot more than most other former FreeHostSpace (now CheapHostOnline) customers can say...

...which was the whole point, in the first place.

Originally posted by GreyDog
One more question for CHOL...

If you are trying to support us, then why do I no longer have "permission" to enter the login page at the support desk?

Originally posted by The Gunner
ThingWraith
If you are a support tech, how about a little support!
I have been patient but it is wearing thin, it's been almost 3 week's now and I still cannot access my site.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed a sudden and deafening silence from ThingWraith, Tymonhall and even Kigai88 -- be they separate or all the same person?

Does CheapHostOnline intend to
respond to these questions, or what?

And if I may I add my own question (for... what... the 5th time or something like that?):

When is CheapHostOnline going to comply with my request that it "push" my client's domain over to the eNom Login-ID (account) that I specified in the letter I sent to CheapHostOnline almost two weeks ago, now?

In the time CheapHostOnline has taken to deny, earlier in this thread, that it still has that item left to do, it could have performed the "push" act three times or more. It only takes about two minutes to do, from log-in to log-out. So why hasn't it happened yet? Is it just stubbornness? Meanness? Childishness? Immaturity? By the way, exactly how old are you, Mr. Hall... or is it "Master" Hall? And how did your mother raise you, sir? Were concepts like truthfulness, responsibility, honor, fairness, or consequences anywhere in your upbringing?

And what's up with people from Redmond, anyway? Derrick Hall, the Lavers boys, Bill Gates... is it something in the water up there or what? Geez, no wonder the Washington State Attorney General felt the need... ne, imperative... to create the "High-tech Unit" to punish the bads acts of cyber bad guys. But I digress.

So, Mr. Hall... what is your response? Hmm? How, finally, does CheapHostOnline respond to these questions?

Why is CheapHostOnline now silent? Why has CheapHostOnline screwed so many former FreeHostSpace customers that they felt the need to create a Yahoo group and two WebHostingTalk threads (in all of which CheapHostOnline has been summarily thrashed, I might add) to discuss and tell (warn) others about it? Or, in fairness, if CheapHostOnline has not actually screwed them, why do they all feel that it has? Has CheapHostOnline been misunderstood? Is there anything CheapHostOnline would like to say in its own defense? Anything? At all? Hmm? We're listening.

How in the world does CheapHostOnline expect to recover from all this -- at least in the eyes of its current and, perhaps more importantly, prospective customers? Has not CheapHostOnline noticed that, at this writing, there have been some nearly 1,800 views of this thread -- with 2,500 or more coming very soon, at this rate? Is CheapHostOnline under the sadly mistaken impression that that has not resulted in a not-insignificant amount of lost business -- business that CheapHostOnline will never even know it lost because prospective cutomers took one look at this mess and said "No freakin' way!" to themselves as they simply moved on in search of another host? Has CheapHostOnline lost it's everlovin' mind?

Step-up, Mr. Hall and explain yourself. Do it now, here, where people will still discuss it with you and where you can still work things out in the end. Do it here, in a place like this rather than in a court room -- which is where it's clearly headed... or hadn't you figured that out yet?

And may I add, incidentally, how tragically sad it is that this is the only place that seems to be getting Mr. Hall's attention? Certainly private letters, emails, faxes and phone calls -- as he's requested when he has posted here -- haven't worked. They've certainly not worked for me. Granted, he responded to one of my messages -- with a request that I tell him what I wanted... as if it weren't already perfectly clear in the letter and email and fax I sent him. But, to date, that which I asked him to do is still undone. And that's the bottom line: Results. The rest is just talk.

That's why I'm still here, Mr. Hall: No results! It has been asked of me that I take this up with you privately -- which I have done. But there are still no results. You even called me on Sunday and left a message in my voicemail asking me to stop trashing you in public places -- which I'm not doing, by the way. But asking you nicely, privately, to take care of business isn't getting it done. And your promises don't feed the bulldog.

Wanna' shut me up? Then do what you were asked to do nearly two weeks ago: "Push" my client's domain name into the eNom Log-in ID (account) that I specified in the letter I sent you. Then begin responding to and honoring the wishes of the rest of the 4,000 to 6,000 former FreeHostSpace customers who have domain names "stuck" in your eNom reseller account!

Do that and I'll be a distant memory in no time.

Refuse... as you continue to do... and I will not only continue to do whatever it takes to keep this debacle in front of everyone who'll listen, but this mess will eventually move from this childishness (that even I'm stupidly participating in at this point), and will finally really become serious. You'll really know you're alive when a guy with a badge from the Attorney General's office shows-up at your front door with a laundry list of uncomfortable questions. And, then as he's leaving, a King County Deputy Sheriff shows-up with a summons to a one and a half million dollar class action suit -- which is a fate for you that is being discussed this very week. We will move forward, even if you don't. Take that to the bank.

Plus, does your Better Business Bureau (BBB) rating mean nothing to you? What about your credit rating? What do you think lawsuits do to your credit rating, young man?

Think, for godsake!

Is that really where you want all this to go? I mean... really? I just can't believe you'll let it get that out of hand -- especially when you know that all you have to do to make all this go away is stop dragging your feet just to spite people (which you and I both know is all you're doing at this point) and simply take care of business.

So... what say you? How do you respond to Greydog, The Gunner, and to my client (among others)?

Speak up sir. Do it now or do it under oath in a court room a few months from now. Either way, I promise you, you'll do it. So pick your forum.

I'm serious as a heart attack, Mr. Hall. And I'm losing my patience.

Originally posted by DesElms

Oh, my... I wish I made $8.96 on a domain name!
.

I stand corrected!
I didnt add in Enom's mark up and cc charge's and the like.
but I still think it's a good deal.
As I stated before, I went to him, he did not come to me and I think he would have been remiss not to tell me of his service's.

I have found cheaper service's but most of them are with resellers that offer the service as part of their hosting package and those that offer the service by itself have not helped me in any way, so why would I go with them?

I will take this opportunity to ask CHOL to "push" the domain name: thegunnersgallery.com to my Enom account ID: thegunner
But somehow I think Mr. Hall is waiting till the beginning of the month so that he can recoup his lose's by charging us for last month and not providing us service(he saves money be not having to spend money on the bandwidth usage for 4000-6000 customer's for a month, thats about $12,000-$18,000 assuming everyone was charged $2.99 for this month)!
You may think that your being slick Mr. Hall, but it's still illegal!
Mr. Deselms is not the only one talking legal action I have been contacted by other's that have all ready started action by reporting you and asking me to sign a petition, I have'nt responded to them yet but if you persist in holding my domain name then I certainly will!

Mr. Hall if you dont do the right thing, then in the long run you are only hurting yourself, as people will not use your service after seeing how you handle things.

P.S. Mr. Hall if you would have done the right thing week's ago, I would have stayed with CHOL but not now!

The Gunner