Is it legal to create a exact looking site (clone) of a popular site and sell it as a template?

Btw, when clonning, i wont be touching one bit of the source code of the site or the images or script or what ever.

What do you think? :eek:

Originally posted by latheesan
Is it legal to create a exact looking site (clone) of a popular site and sell it as a template?

Btw, when clonning, i wont be touching one bit of the source code of the site or the images or script or what ever.

What do you think? :eek:

Hi latheesan.

NOPE! Sorry to bust your bubbles. You need to ask permission but I am pretty sure they won't let other people "clone" their site. :cool:

I will assume by cloning you mean graphics correct?

It's not what I think, it's fact. :)

Regards.

As for as I know... Layout and color schemes cannot be copyrighted.

Logos and content. Yes. Even content is a bit difficult.

For example take Microsoft.com.
If you wanted to create a site that had the same pixel width as the left nav, the same pixel height as the header and used the same font and color scheme, go for it. There is no way to copyright layout and colors.

Now. Taking a custom designed image from that site and placing it on yours, is a bit different. But if you use your own graphics, then go for it.

If I am wrong... please let me know.

Question:

Why would you want to sell a copy of a popular site anyway? I can see taking some ideas from other sites. But an exact copy? Why?

Bullet I'm afraid you are wrong. When a site is copyrighted the entire site is copyrighted. Each element, color, and word is a product of the company that produced it, or who bought the rights, and only they have the rights to use it. Cloning is illegal, even if you have the source files. What courts will do is look at who created it first (easy to find out by looking at files on your computer).

When i said cloning, i meant, look at the site with my eyes, open photoshop, create the images. cause thats what i am good at.

and for the html element, i can work out what the font size, colour, and css settings are by jus lookin at em.

so is it illegal to look at a site and how it looks like and create a site of my own from scratch exactly how it looks like?

Yes, it is illegal. You cannot duplicate someone else's work, no matter what methods you use to do it. If you read a book, memorized it and replicated it from scratch from memory, you'd still be sued for copyright infringements when you went to publish it. It's as simple as that.

the intent is what violates copyright , you dont even have to copy the site exactly , if your intent is to take their ideas technically you have broken the copyright.

Its just a dumb idea period. Why would you want to clone a website? Websites are SUPPOSED to be unique. Do you realize what the net would be like if everything was a clone of one website?

Originally posted by TheBullet
There is no way to copyright layout and colors.

You're talking about logos here. While you're still wrong in general, you're particularly wrong about trademarked logos like Microsoft's. If you've ever looked at a proper trademark document for a corporate logo, the appearance (colors, font used, other presentational aspects) is very much at issue.

Two companies using the same word for their logo, operating in different industries, are differentiated (or not, in the case of conglomerates) by their distinct logos. Case in point, the Steamboat Ski and Resort Corporation of Colorado and the Steamboat Fertilizer Corporation of Missouri both use the word 'Steamboat' as a logo. As separate corporations, one is absolutely not allowed to copy the other's trademarked logo.

Originally posted by latheesan
Btw, when clonning, i wont be touching one bit of the source code of the site or the images or script or what ever.

What do you think? :eek:

I think you should ask AlaskanWolf:

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=347088

I also believe you can not copyright a website layout, as thousands of websites share similar layouts. Same goes for color combinations.

Thousands of websites followed the early amazon.com layout. Most search engines look the same and are copying google's almost empty start page.

Logos are different and have better defined rules.

There may be times when a layout gets stuck in the back of your head and you unintentionally replicate it, in which case, you should graciously delete it, but to set out and clone is a whole other matter. The simple answer is just don't do it.

Most of you have completely misunderstood me. (Pete is the only one who got it! Thanks Pete!)

Let me clear this up...

1. I never even mentioned logos. Never. But I did say this:
"Taking a custom designed image from that site and placing it on yours, is a bit different." This includes Logos.

2. You cannot, I don't care what anyone says, copyright a layout.
For example:

Let's say Microsoft.com has a left Nav width of 110 pixels, and a header height of 80 pixels, with a footer height of 50 pixels and a site wide width of 100%. You CANNOT copyright that layout.

I can create any site with those dimensions, without "copying" or infringing on copyrights.

I am talking about layout. If you know anything about web design, you would know this.

Layout and color schemes cannot be copyrighted. If I want to use the same blue color that microsoft does, I can. As long as I dont use it to infringe upon their copyrighted products. They do not own the rights to "#1E77D3" or "width=110" and so on.

Now. I am NOT saying that you can COPY a site. I am merely saying that you can make a site "look" 100% different but use the same layout. Shoot, 90% of websites use the same layouts already, as Pete explained. Left Nav, Header, Footer, etc. etc...

Again, you cannot own the rights to a color scheme, and you can never copyright a layout.

You can however, own a copyright or trademark on a specific image (or site, logo, etc.). But as a whole only.

You should ask for a permission.

What about intellectual property and all that nonsense? If it went to court and Bob's site looked pretty much exactly the same as Microsoft's except a copyright messege in the footer, Bob can still get sued. He has stolen someone elses ideas, their intellectual property. The courts would look at who had it first, Bob's site would be newer, and therefore Microsoft would win the case.

Ask for permission for what? To use a color? Or to use a pixel width?

Originally posted by mouldy_punk
What about intellectual property and all that nonsense? If it went to court and Bob's site looked pretty much exactly the same as Microsoft's except a copyright messege in the footer, Bob can still get sued. He has stolen someone elses ideas, their intellectual property. The courts would look at who had it first, Bob's site would be newer, and therefore Microsoft would win the case.

What are the chance of that happening? MS come after little old bob for 2 bucks? Cased Closed. :eek:

Unless you actually steal graphic images (like a background images, or some arrows or icons) MS wouldn't even have a case.

Redo the MS website's layout with your own images/photos and it won't even look like the original site. Think about all the CSS sites/blogs that use the same layout.

They would have a case if you are trying to pretend to be MS.

Pete is right again.

If you make a site that look exactly like microsoft and try and sell products like microsoft's products, then micorsoft has a case.

If you take the basic layout, change the colors and images... then BOOM you have a completely different site.

Pete & Bullet do have a point.

Originally posted by Abvex
What are the chance of that happening? MS come after little old bob for 2 bucks? Cased Closed. :eek:

Maybe not MS then, someone who would actually care...like John who just spent $100 for a custom template for their forums. Then Bob comes along and copies it and tries to recreate the images (not copy and paste, more along the lines of tracing :p) and makes the same layout with the same colours. Perhaps not the same HTML code, but if it looks pretty much exactly the same - John would have a case then.

Unless you actually steal graphic images (like a background images, or some arrows or icons) MS wouldn't even have a case.

This is incorrect. If you set out to copy a website, and it appears blatantly obvious, you will fall into some heat over copyright infringement.

The thought crosses my mind that since you started this thread, it was your itention to copy another developers ideas, in which case, just don't do it, and all will be well :)

From your posts, I'm afraid I don't get any other impression ..

Copyright does not protect layouts, as has been said, but trademarks can protect the use of colours.

However, when that layout is combined with colours and graphics to produce a site design that is almost, if not completely, the same as someone else's intellectual property, then that is illegal in some countries. Remember, laws vary between countries.

So in other words... no one knows for sure. Like most laws, it's up to the interpretation.

Here is what I found on designertoday website:

"The "look" and "feel" of the DesignerToday.com website also are GMP Services, Inc. trademarks/servicemarks. This includes DesignerToday color combinations, button shapes, layout, and all other graphical elements."

gee I hope no one needs to use a square aqua button with plain text. To me that "warning" is total BS.

(Equentity - Pauly: I didn't start this thread)

I think some people here are having a hard time articulating what a "layout" is. The ARANGEMENT of items on a website cannot be copyrighted, but the layout (look and feel or the entire site and specific items within the site) can be and is copyrighted. If you place items similarly to how MS does, you won't come under any flack (unless you have the same content :p) but if you basically trace their site and fill in new colors that is illigal and you will probably get in trouble. MS employs tons of people, someone is bound to find out.

Originally posted by Pete
So in other words... no one knows for sure. Like most laws, it's up to the interpretation.

Here is what I found on designertoday website:

"The "look" and "feel" of the DesignerToday.com website also are GMP Services, Inc. trademarks/servicemarks. This includes DesignerToday color combinations, button shapes, layout, and all other graphical elements."

gee I hope no one needs to use a square aqua button with plain text. To me that "warning" is total BS.

(Equentity - Pauly: I didn't start this thread) No, people do know for sure, but some people are living in a dream where they think everything is available to them. Taking someone else's ideas and work that have been copyrighted by them is illigal.

The DesignerToday copyright statement is correct whether yo think so or not. It's true that no one can copyright a shape or use of a font, and the buttons demonstrated on the site are very basic, but create a site with their individual elements in it and email it to them, see what happens.

I really wish some people would get out of the idea that since it's on the internet it's theirs to take.

This whole idea that designs have been copyrighted is really, at its core, rediculous.

If you put Copyright 2005 Company Name. All Rights Reserved. at the bottom of your site, this does not mean you have actually submitted a copyright request.

I understand that in today's world it is more about "who did it first". But in reality, copyrights are rarely submitted legally.

I understand the points that everyone is making. I am not in anyway suggesting that it is "OK" to copy anothers work.

I am merely playing devil's advocate here, defending the fact that layouts cannot be claimed by a single corporation or individual.

Take for example, 2advanced.com, they helped give flash a kickstart for web development. There work has been copied and applied in a million different projects. They came up with certain layouts that have been used by a ton of other designers. WebAgent007.com is the same, these guys do incredible work. Ofcourse, incredible things are going to be "copied" or applied to your own work, that is what makes this world competitive.

Everyone clones what works. Even in the automotive industry, the browser world, the brick and mortor book stores, movie theatres, etc... etc... etc...

Change it a little, slap your logo on it, and stick it in the market.

:scatter:

If you put Copyright 2005 Company Name. All Rights Reserved. at the bottom of your site, this does not mean you have actually submitted a copyright request.

I understand that in today's world it is more about "who did it first". But in reality, copyrights are rarely submitted legally.Copyrights are legally implied upon publication. A copyright notice is helpful, and it's smart to keep records of your work so you can defend them (the old poor-man's copyright, mailing files to yourself in a sealed envelope, works just fine). But you don't have to submit a copyright request to legitimately claim copyright infringement. That would be trademarks, a different topic entirely.

There's a lot of grey area when it comes to copyrights. There's no clear-cut standard for what makes a layout unique v. what makes it legally in violation. But OP asked if he could "clone" a layout, and the answer is no. It's no different than "cloning" a painting without the original artist's permission. You can't do it. You can be sued. You will lose. Given OP's original statements, this is cut-and-dry. Cloning = illegal. Period.

Wrong again, TheBullet. Copyright is not the same as trademarked (which needs to be submited into the legal system). Once someone creates something that is their own, it is theirs. http://www.allworth.com/Articles/article06.htm

Read this as well: http://www.templetons.com/brad/copymyths.html

I have to disagree. But not entirely...

There are different methods of cloning...

1. Cloning - Taking an existing site, making a new one that looks EXACTLY the same as the original.

2. Cloning/MOD - Taking an existing site, making changes (colors, images, etc), content. Enough to make look "different".

I agree with you about option 1. Not option 2.

I think we might be going ROUND and ROUND on this one :)

#1 - Clearly illegal

#2 - Grey area. Might be illegal, might not be. It's a judge's call. Certainly from another person in the industry, it is unethical. But that doesn't make it illegal.

FWIW, OP was talking about doing #1. Let's just make it very clear to him when he reads this thread that the scenario he described is wholely illegal.

phos...

Wrong again? Didn't know I was ever wrong... :)

I will accept that putting "Copyright" on your work is considered "copyrighted". However my point was this:

I can create ANYTHING, and say it is copyrighted. Whether I do research to prove it is "original" or not. It's a simple point that people do not research their work before they quickly assign "Copyright" to it.

Which in MY OPINION, is rediculous.

Originally posted by the_pm
#1 - Clearly illegal

#2 - Grey area. Might be illegal, might not be. It's a judge's call. Certainly from another person in the industry, it is unethical. But that doesn't make it illegal.

FWIW, OP was talking about doing #1. Let's just make it very clear to him when he reads this thread that the scenario he described is wholely illegal.

Agreed. #1 is completely wrong and should never be done. End of story.

#2... :) We could discuss for 2 years... and still be at the same place.

:hammer:

You are correct there, it is up to the creator to make something original. I've been guilty before of imitating something that I had seen before, though it was so far in the back of my mind I didn't realise it. Luckily it was for school and someone in my class pointed it out. Boy was I embarassed :p My point is that even if you do not realise that what you make is something already copyrighted, it doesn't excuse you from the law.

We are kind of going in circles here. PM summarised pretty well.

Virtual Hands Shakes for everyone!

Mod... Please close this thread. :)

well to me....I feel it I take something that looks exactly like one site and make something to exact I feel as if I was coping the site and feel bad about it. Now I have had clients ask if I can make something look similar to a certian site...and I make it diffrent and unique but with teh same qualities of that site. Example... www.musicdrop.net (site I designed) looks similar but is still diffrent than http://www.musichypeonline.com/home.htm

When it comes to cloning an entire site Its fairly obvious that its a violation of copyright. However I think some of the comments here just go too far. The layout on 90%+ of sites out there are the same.

Menu to the left, Horizontal navigation at the top, logo top left hand corner etc etc. Even some of the people in this thread claiming to design from scratch have the same styles in their portfolio. They are standard because they have all been copied
so often.

Moving to the graphics common to all sites and we see wholesale copying of the same styles - buttons with gradients and slight beveled edges, aqua and gel styles everywhere. They are similiar in a number of ways besides that as well.

Finally in regard to colors - Most good designs are based on Color Theory and there is no way that any company can lay claim to copyright of colors that work according to color theory.

We are all inspired by something in our life and in art thats how every artists learns. that involves reproduction of techniques and styles you've seen and liked. So no - don't clone. that doesn't take any creativity but there no ethical, moral or legal reason you can't use things you've learn't from other sites - just don't go looking to copy or lift the actual graphics or code.

Originally posted by The Bullet

Take for example, 2advanced.com, they helped give flash a kickstart for web development. There work has been copied and applied in a million different projects. They came up with certain layouts that have been used by a ton of other designers. WebAgent007.com is the same, these guys do incredible work. Ofcourse, incredible things are going to be "copied" or applied to your own work, that is what makes this world competitive.


We at 2advanced understand that we're copied as much as - if not more than - any other company on the web. We take it very seriously, and yes - we do take legal action against people and companies who illegally use our intellectual property. We occasionally joke that people who steal our designs pay for our Christmas party (a single infringment can cost you up to $150,000 - if you own a house, that should be enough reason NOT to steal a design), but it's something we take very seriously - it's not a joke to us.


You can find a longer article with some remarks from our COO Tony Novak at: http://forums.ultrashock.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28887

The bottom line:
- Most people who copy DO use source and/or images
- Those that don't are still copying look-and-feel, which is still actionable under many circumstances ( see: http://www.ivanhoffman.com/feel.html )

Thanks for the Hoffman article. Its very good. I think it lays down exactly what is copyrightable and what isn't.

I think cloners do themselves a disservice as well. Copying a site tends to make you miss the main question - Why does this design work? If you get that answer by taking the time to analyze it then you give yourself the tools to create your own designs that work just as well and without copying

COPYRIGHT covers actual things, NOT IDEAS!!

You should also note that copyright does not protect ideas. It protects the way the idea is expressed in a piece of work, but it does not protect the idea itself.

http://www.patent.gov.uk/copy/definition.htm

From this I would presume you can copy the site if you make it yourself as there will be differences. I still would recommend you use your imagination and come up with your own site, using multiple sites as insperation!!

This is a very simple answer guys.

If you have to think about it, then you already know the answer.

gregorys, thanks, you just gave me a headache. :) (english is not my primary language btw =P) if i have to think about it then i already know the answer? are you the oracle ? :) just kidding man :)

this was an interesting topic. helped alot especially for me as starting to sell my design services soon.

- Theo