I'm creating this thread because my "effective wht advertising" <<Snipped>> post turned into a "quad xeon" discussion. In an effort to keep things more on topic I'm attempting to move the cpu discussion here.

To sum things up, in my other post I asked for some feedback on my WHT ad and my website. By doing so, it was quickly pointed out by several people that the "quad xeon" i was offering was more than likely a dual hypertreading system with virtual processors. After some discussion with my host, this does appear to the case.

When confronted on the issue my host informed me:

"We use 2 xeon processors with hyperthreading on all our reseller boxes. The hyperthreading makes the system run as though there were 4 cpus. "

After I informed my host how upset I was that I now had to update my website and ads because I beleive false advertising to be wrong I was told:

"Not a problem, however, it is widely known in the industry as "quad-xeon" becuase of the hyperthreading."

I highly doubt dual ht xeons are known as quad xeons within the industry. Since this is a site for industry members, please educate me on your thoughts on that comment.

The reason I was under the impression that my server actually has four processors is because I was actually told so. The following was taken from my host's site:

"Your reseller account will be placed on a server with the following minimum specifications: QUAD (4 Processor) XEON @ 2.4GHz"


What that says to me is the server will have 4 actual processors running @ 2.4 Ghz. Does anyone read that otherwise?

Please provide me with some links to some technical information on how dual ht xeons perform, and how actual quad xeons perform if anyone has the information. This is the kind of information I am looking for:

Originally posted by RambOrc
http://www.2cpu.com/articles/41_4.html

Linux 2.6 and Hyper-Threading - Static HTML and MySQL

"Enabling HT on this machine results in a 29% increase in requests per second."

Your host is quite misinformed. Dual xeons with hyperthreading does not "make the system run as though there were 4 cpus." Hyperthreading allows you to get a little more efficiency out of a processor (when running applications that benefit from it) by having one thread run while another thread is waiting for information. The issue here is that only one thread is really running at any one time... so in a good case, you might get an extra 20% of so performance boost from having hyperthreading enabled. On the flip side of this, hyperthreading can actually DEGRADE performance in many situations due to the threads stepping on each other as far as causing cache flushes.

Also, I'm not aware of anyone in the industry that can call this quad xeons with a straight face... it is not "widely known in the industry". Dual xeons with hyperthread does not give you a quad xeon box, and a single xeon with hypterthreading does not give you a dual xeon box.

As far as the new server you are being moved to, you better ask if those are indeed 4 physical processors. Quad xeon servers are rather rare in the hosting industry, because they have a poor price/performance ratio when compared to a dual processor box. Due to the shared memory bus architecture of Intel SMP, you usually don't get much extra performance out of a quad Xeon server when compared to a dual Xeon server.

I can remember when we first started using dual xeons with HT enabled. I had a sysadmin then who thought the HT was inhibiting server performance, and we disabled it. I can't remember all the details, but having HT enabled does not give you twice the proc performance etc.

Originally posted by Aussie Bob
I can remember when we first started using dual xeons with HT enabled. I had a sysadmin then who thought the HT was inhibiting server performance, and we disabled it. I can't remember all the details, but having HT enabled does not give you twice the proc performance etc.
That's correct, it doesn't give you twice the performance, although if you are running more than one task at a time, it runs more efficiently.

In most cases it is beneficial to have on webservers, you're running MySQL, Apache, the OS, etc. etc.

As for the origional post, if I read Quad Xeon, I would think 4 *physical* processors. If I read Dual Xeons with Hyperthreading, I would think 4 *virtual* processors.

As mentioned above the benefit from hyperthreading is really minimal. The best benchmarks I've seen on it show about a 30-40% gain, but many show much less than that. Certain applications can suffer from it even.

If hyperthreading was so good, they wouldn't have created the dual core chips ;)

As justadollarhostin said, the reports say about 30% gain from what I've seen.

Hope this helps.

email to my host:


Rick,

Thanks again for your quick replies, but can you please back up your "widely known in the industry" comment?

On your website, and ebay auctions, you state "Your premium reseller account will be placed on a server with the following minimum specifications: QUAD (4 Processor) XEON @ 2.4GHz..." This clearly states a 4 CPU system. The opinion of the other hosting companies I have spoken with, as well as my own, is that "Quad Xeon" refers to four physical processors, while Dual Xeon w/ HyperThreading refers to four virtual processors.

In an earlier email you stated "We use 2 xeon processors with hyperthreading on all our reseller boxes. The hyperthreading makes the system run as though there were 4 cpus." Is the implication here that one cpu with hyperthreading is equal in performance to two physical processors of equal speed without hyperthreading? If so, than I would seriously like to see your numbers. If not, I would ask why you would be so obviously misleading (monetary reasons set aside). Everything I have found, and everyone I have spoken to, points to a 30%-40% performance increase with hyperthreading enabled on a processor. In some circumstances hyperthreading has been found to cause performance decreases. If you have other information, I am very interested in seeing it.

The feedback I am receiving from the web hosting community is not "Quad Xeons = Dual Xeons w/ ht enabled, but rather "Quad Xeons = 4 Physical Xeon Processors". Furthermore, the consensus seems to be that one should not sell a dual xeon hyperthreaded system as being a quad system, and those that do should not do so with a straight face.

Please explain to me how the statement found on your website ( http://www.fatnetwork.net/ebay/why.htm ) and numerous ebay auctions is not false advertising.

I have been very satisfied with your service thus far, but I must make it known that I value ethics over server performance and customer support. At this point, you need to give me some really good reasons why I shouldn't pack up and move to another company (which is not something I would do on a whim), as well as why I shouldn't notify ebay that your not selling what you claim to be.


The reply I got stated that "Rich will get back to you at his earliest convenience." I don't even know who Rich is, I was trying to email Rick.

Later Rick actually replied with:


I'm terribly sorry that you are unsatisfied with this.

It is fact that if you check the "server status" in WHM, you will see the 4 processors, hense our marketing of the "quad processor" reseller account. If the cpu's were not hyperthreaded, then you would see only two processors. With regards to performance numbers, I'm sorry, we don't have any pre xeon 2.4 performance numbers (non HT chips) becuase this is the minimum configuration in the xeon box that we've ever ordered.

I suppose the question about processors being physical or virutual can be open to interpretation, however, so can many other features such as "unlimited" space and bandwidth, both of which you have purchased from us. Fact is, as long as I see 4 processors read by the server status in linux, I can sleep well at night knowing that I am not misleading anyone.

Lastly, it should be noted that at any point if someone asks us the question about the number of physical processors, we tell them, not that it comes up very often.

What does come up is the following:

1 - Response time
2 - Ability to deliver a stable product
3 - Ability to maintain pricing
4 - Ability to manage the servers

We have put all our efforts in to the above. If you are not happy with what we are providing, then please, don't let me stop you to find someone who will offer you something more satisfying. The fact is, I do offer everything that I say I do, and at the end of the day, I'm here to ensure the best possible hosting experience for all our clients, and that is what we value most.



I don't think that really answered any of my questions at all. Physical vs Virtual CPUs is open for intrepretation? The "unlimited" space and bandwidth are covered on the website and ebay ads, stating basically storage is limited to the drives on the server, but that they are easily upgraded when needed to account for the "unlimited" storage, and the bandwidth is not unlimited but unmetered. I am ok with this, because it was explained as such.

Apparantly I'm in the market for a new host again...

CPanel will show you 4 logical CPUs, not 4 Physical CPUs. Your host is misleading you. Nothing much you can do, just move on.

Yeah, he is most definitely misleading you and avoiding your questions. 2 Xeons running with HT most definitely are not the equivalent of 4 physical processors.

Just look at http://www.fatnetwork.net/ebay/why.htm and it's crying "crook" all over the place... not only because of the outright lies concerning the technical part (he says 4 processor explicitly, talks about 9.6 GHz which is simply a lie, can't be interpreted any other way - BTW funny thing, they talk about a 10 RPM HDD, that's mighty slow ROFL), but also the whole way the page is built up, not only visually but also semantically.

I suggest you report this fraudster both to ebay and the BBB. BTW now that I've seen the company URL, I have some faint memories having encountered a targeted visitor scam a couple of years ago that was also something like fatnet or fatnetwork (don't remember exactly any more). I'm not saying they're the same, but it might be worth looking into.

Originally posted by RefreshNet
If hyperthreading was so good, they wouldn't have created the dual core chips ;)

Dual core was coming no matter what happened with Hyperthreading, it's just the next step to stay on track with the law about CPU speeds.

Also, the fact that everyone (AMD, IBM, Intel) develops multicore CPUs but only Intel released HT should also tell you something about the worth of either. ;)

Originally posted by RambOrc
Also, the fact that everyone (AMD, IBM, Intel) develops multicore CPUs but only Intel released HT should also tell you something about the worth of either. ;)
AMD has Hyper Transport which is similiar to Hyper Threading.

Originally posted by inogenius
AMD has Hyper Transport which is similiar to Hyper Threading.

Ouch, that hurts! Hyper Transport is "a high-speed, high-performance, point-to-point link for interconnecting integrated circuits on a board". The ONLY thing it has in common with Hyper Threading is the word "hyper". :rolleyes:

Recommend you to read up on it:

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_4699_4741%5E4752,00.html

http://www.amd.com/us-en/Corporate/VirtualPressRoom/0,,51_104_543_5730~75263,00.html

Whoa.. they say 9.6GHz which is NOT CORRECT at all. You can't just add the processor clock speeds up and publish b.s. about it on your site.

Thanks,

Originally posted by elix
Whoa.. they say 9.6GHz which is NOT CORRECT at all. You can't just add the processor clock speeds up and publish b.s. about it on your site.

Thanks,

Indeed. Even if it were 4 physical processors, this is still incorrect.

I think it might be time to find a host that knows what it's talking about. The fact that they advertise on eBay also sets off a red flag.

There are two possibilities here.
1) The guy's a flat out dope.
2) The guy is an unethical liar.

Either way, I wouldn't trust my business in his hands.

I was just looking over this again and I believe they offer unlimited space & bandwidth.......

ack.

Thanks,

FatNetwork does offer "unlimited" storage and transfer, but they do actually explain that it really isn't unlimited, which made sense and seemed alright at the time, but that probably should have been my first sign to stay away. I am def going to do more research b4 moving on to another host though.

Fellow WHTers:

I normally don't post here, but, I think some explanation is needed from our part.

The "Quad - Xeon" claim that we make is based solely on the "server information" link in WHM. Anyone who asks us to explain this is told that it is 2 hyperthreaded xeon processors, and the OS/WHM sees this as 4 proessors (hense the "quad").

It is our position that as long as the "Server Information" link in WHM is displaying 4 CPU's (PROCESSOR1, PROCESSOR2, PROCESSOR3, PROCESSOR4), then we feel it is correct, becuase if it isn't, then WHM and the operating system are misleading everyone, and we're just cought up in the middle.

Though we respect the views of others in the hosting industry, these views are our own.

Fat Network has made a business of specializing in reseller hosting and managed services. We offer stable servers, a 2nd to none monitoring system, fantastic pricing, and friendly service personnel who resolves issues within an hour, any time, day or night.

Regards,
Rick Orford
President, Fat Network Inc.

Rick,


Terminating my account due to my questioning your questionable business practices is far from friendly. I did not come here to give you a bad name, just get the industries input on the subject. Something that you were unwilling to provide when asked to backup your claims.

Ok Rick,

you've made your point. Although you know that the server has two physical processors, you are choosing to be ignorant about it and just say what WHM/cPanel thinks it has.

But can you explain how you arrived to the conclusion that the server runs at 9.6GHZ?

I have to agree with E_man3. You can't possibly claim that 2 xeons with HT can have the equivalent of 9.6 GHz.

If you want to go by what cpanel says then by all means do so.

First, let me clear up the fact that we did not terminate Mr. Katip's account, rather, we have cancelled billing and gave him 15 days notice to find a new host as he has publically stated of his wishes to find a new host.

2nd, we come to the figure of "9.6GHz" by multiplying 2.4ghz x 4, its as simple as that.

-Rick

Originally posted by FatNetwork

2nd, we come to the figure of "9.6GHz" by multiplying 2.4ghz x 4, its as simple as that.

-Rick
:rofl: :laugh: :crazy:

My question to you: How are you even able to run a web hosting business?? Just because a processor is running on HT does NOT double its capabilities....virtual or physical.

It can increase it a little bit, but not more than 50% on average...if that.

That is very definatly false advertising, no where does anyone (retailers, hosting companies, processor manufactures) claim that hyperthreading doubles the processor speed. I also think it is wrong to advertise dual with hyperthreading as quad because it's simply not. A quad processor box has 4 processors, not 2!!! But I can see how this might be acceptable, claiming a doubles cpu speed is however simply incorrect.

Jona

I think you guys should just give up on fatnetworks, he obviously knows absolutely nothing about how the internet works.

- He thinks 2x2.4 w/HT = 9.6Ghz
- He thinks unmetered = unlimited
- He thinks he can offer unlimited storage by promising to add new hdds
- And he's doing all of this on an unstable experimental linux build

Yeah it was kind of funny how he came here to vindicate himself from the negative claims and instead confirmed every word that had been said against him... :P

I think you are all overracting and making a big deal out of something rather small.

Originally posted by FatNetwork
then WHM and the operating system are misleading everyone, and we're just cought up in the middle.


No, you just choose to be caught in the middle. Nowhere does the OS or WHM specifies that it's LOGICAL or PHYSICAL processors. And from the sound of it, you know the difference between the two. If so, then you are trying to mislead people by not telling them the truth. How hard is it to say that your server has four LOGICAL processors. Just insert the word LOGICAL. Too hard? Oh wait, marketing tactics, right?


2nd, we come to the figure of "9.6GHz" by multiplying 2.4ghz x 4, its as simple as that.


WHM and the OS do not claim your total CPU power of 9.6 GHz, do they? Either you are dumb, or you are trying to mislead people by saying that. Pick one.

Originally posted by Blue Dot Labs
FatNetwork does offer "unlimited" storage and transfer, but they do actually explain that it really isn't unlimited, which made sense

There goes a problem with you yourself. If you think ther exists a "limited unlimited something", I am no surprised why you are easily fooled by logical vs physical CPUs.

Originally posted by VagrantHost
I think you are all overracting and making a big deal out of something rather small.

This is how people react at WHT for something small. Wait until they react for something BIG .... :)

Gee... the uncompromising WHT folks! you guys .....

Originally posted by FHDave
This is how people react at WHT for something small. Wait until they react for something BIG .... :)

Gee... the uncompromising WHT folks! you guys ..... I simply think it says a lot about people who continually bash other companies, call them scammers and mercilessly whine about how shady "comany A" is for doing this and that.

Don't take it personally. It bugs me when Pepsi bashes Coke or vice-versa in their advertising.

I don't know where people get the energy or time.

Originally posted by FatNetwork
First, let me clear up the fact that we did not terminate Mr. Katip's account, rather, we have cancelled billing and gave him 15 days notice to find a new host as he has publically stated of his wishes to find a new host.

2nd, we come to the figure of "9.6GHz" by multiplying 2.4ghz x 4, its as simple as that.

-Rick
:crazy:

I hope you are aware that you can't just multiply. Even if you had Quad Xeons, which you don't, you can't do that.

GSV

There goes a problem with you yourself. If you think ther exists a "limited unlimited something", I am no surprised why you are easily fooled by logical vs physical CPUs.

Unmetered bandwidth, having physical limits on that bandwidth, overselling storage, upgrading hard drives, and moving clients to another server as needed to balance the load on a server is an easy concept to understand, especially when it was explained as such from the get go. "limited unlimited" as you call it is very possible, it is basically extreme overselling. I doubt anyone here would claim overselling does not exist. The existance of this practice does not make it good or bad, that would be a debate for another thread.

I was not fooled by logical vs physical CPUs. I had logical CPUs advertised as if they were physical. That is all there is to it.

I simply think it says a lot about people who continually bash other companies, call them scammers and mercilessly whine about how shady "comany A" is for doing this and that.

I just wanted to point out that this thread did not start out as a company bashing thread. I simply wanted to gather the insight of the web hosting community to back up an unproven claim about something that was supposed to be "commonly known within the industry".

This was not intended for bashing of anyone, or any company. I was simply trying to verify something that I considered a matter of false advertising, which I do take seriously.

Blue Dot Labs, there is no blame on you because you cannot be held accountable for how other people reply within a thread you started.

In answer to your original question, a car engine with Turbo-boost is still one engine, but it will go faster than the same type engine without Turbo.

It is true that you have been misinformed by your current Hoster. Lots of Scammers in this business doing whatever they can get away with, or think they can. Only through correct & accurate information can one navigate the minefield known as "Hosting".

BTW, if I create 8 partitions on a hard drive, do I still have 1 hard drive or 8? ;)

Just as a partitioned hard drive is more efficient, so is a CPU with Hyperthreading.

This thread is 8mths old. :crazy:

The Fatnet man lied, that's all there is to it. People are not "bashing" him for no good reason! He told his costumer that his server would have 4 processors, with 9.6 Ghz. If he would have said 4 processors and [WHM reported CPU Speed] then we would understand that he simply lacks some technical knowledge, and forgive him. But he chooses to come up with the best ( and inacurate ) numbers to advertise with. He owes the costumer a refund IMO...

Yeah, I don't know how those statements can be defended.

Lets ponder about this for a second.

1) You found your hosting provider on ebay.

2) The hosting providers is advertising quad physical

3) This thread = Priceless ;)

I had a reseller account a long, long, long time ago with "unlimited" bandwidth and space - which I got off eBay. (I didn't know squat about hosting back then.)

FatNetwork is probably one of the worst hosts I have ever had. Simple as that. There was extensive downtime. And once I got up to about 100GB bandwidth, I got my account deleted. Yeah, unlimited my ***.

Just my opinion, don't hurt me. ;)