HI!

Greetings!

I am just wondering if what will you do if this happens to you:
(Although it didn't happen yet to us.)

You were commissioned to do a website design. Then the client loves it. He pays for it. Then later, the client happens to have some other priorities and decided to sell the website (which includes your design). What will be the legal implication?

At first, I think it is ok. This is good for as long as your client does not claim the website design as his/her own (since you are the one who actually designed it). But what if your client claims that his/her website was designed solely by him/her! (an insider info perhaps or you know the buyer).

Somehow, when we design a website, usually clients don't want to display that "Design by" notice on the website. And when the site does get sold there is no way to credit the original designer. Do you have something to say about this?

Thanks.

:)

sorry, charlie. you're wrong.

designers give up their copyright to a design once they sell it (usually). realize that practically every good site on the web had to hire designers, as not everyone has that level of expertise.

once you're paid, they can forget you. they can sell your design, because it's theirs. that's usually how it works.

Jason
4NetDesign.com

geiger,

Oh I see. Thank you for your input. I just thought maybe there are some "nice" people out there who respects copyright and gladly recognize the designer on their website.

But, if this is the reality in website designing, then so be it. :) I am wondering how artists like da Vinci would feel if they are the ones who design a web site. Haha!

:)

yes, but DaVinci sold his paintings. once he did so, of course the artist's name was there. that's typical of paintings. but was it his? no.

You nailed it. Then a web designer (if that is typical of him/her) can also place a "Designed by" notice on the website and when he/she sells it, then it is not his, but the name stays.

:)

EDIT: What I am trying to say here is that there has to be a distinction between the owner and the designer. I mean the owner of a car can claim that the BMW is his/hers, but he/she cannot claim that he/she designed it. That is an outright violation of property rights. Don't you think so?

*pulls nail out*

And then you client uses Paintbrush to take our your company name. It's his. No harm done :)

You can certainly contract that the designed by can never be removed. However, you must also accept that may restrict your sales and pricing. If one is going to offer you free advertising (design by label), then they may very well expect something in return (special pricing).

I come from a freelance web design background. I used to agree contracts with clients that copyright remained my own, but was in effect leased to the client. If the client wanted the copyright, the price increased quite dramatically :)

I'll jump in on this one..

If a client pays you for your work it in now theirs. Sure it would be nice to keep your name attached to it so the world knows it's yours.

We have many clients on the lower end as far the cost goes. We put our name on their site. But... We have many others that paid not to have our name listed. Sure can they resell it? Yes, can they put their name on it and say it's theirs? Sure, we can't really stop them but is it right?? Good question. They paid for it.

We have put together a number of site using Frontpage - hack hack cough... Because clients wanted to update their sites themself and don't know anything about FTPing and Dreamweaver and God forbid Notepad. The templates we used were built by someone else and we put our name on it, granted that is what the designer knew would happen. I think the only way to protect yourself from that is to have a contract signed saying that the person you sell to can't pass off the work as their own or resell it without your knowledge and okie dokie..

You will lose a lot of sales if you do that though. We buy programs and custom work all the time and use it on our clients sites. We don't have the time, heck.. we don't have the skills to do some of the great work some of your guys are doing.

My opinion (worth about 2 cents) is when you are in graphic design you get paid for what you produce. If you are worried about it I would raise your prices or get a contract.


Robert

The way I do it is. If I am contracted to "design a site" in my agreements I own the "design" aspect of the site. The client owns the content in it. It has seemed to work out for me, although I do take it on a case by case set-up.

If I put a design out there and send someone to it, it's been hacked up by someone that doesnt know what they are doing. Then I look bad, not that company. By me retaining ownership of the "design" I insure that what I originaly designed that the client signed off on stays looking the way it was meant to. If the client wants to change it later I usaly make suggestions as to what could be done or make the changes myself, staying within the design for typicaly a small fee.

It is also easier for the client as I would still have the Photoshop doc with all of the layers.

Most clients that I deal with are ok with this arrangement.

But, once again it is on a project by project basis.

Originally posted by consul

I mean the owner of a car can claim that the BMW is his/hers, but he/she cannot claim that he/she designed it. That is an outright violation of property rights. Don't you think so?

Not really... think of it this way. The car may say it was designed by BMW but you don't know the name of the individual employee (or group in this case) that did the design even though it was technically "their" design. BMW buys the rights to it when they employ the person and send them a paycheck.

I contract designers often and in doing so I purchase the copyright which is then sold to the end user or client. Often times the designer will go right to putting "(C) My Client 2002" on the bottom of the design knowing that it will eventually be resold to them.

I think this is quite common, then again it's the arrangement we have made. If you want to retain your copyright make sure you contract it that way... I was under the impression however that most people sell the copyright with the designs.

My 2 cents.

I've posted most of this before, but here goes...

Originally posted by consul
Somehow, when we design a website, usually clients don't want to display that "Design by" notice on the website.
You need to have two sets of pricing, (specifically a price that gives full ownership of the design to the client).


Originally posted by geiger
sorry, charlie. you're wrong.

designers give up their copyright to a design once they sell it (usually).

once you're paid, they can forget you. they can sell your design, because it's theirs. that's usually how it works.

Jason
4NetDesign.com
By default, designers do not give up their copyright to a design. This would have to be in the terms of the contract. Your clients are paying you to design a site, but that does not mean that they own the copyright of the design. Many people don't realize this. Your 'usually' indicates that the norm is to sell the design with the service, and I cannot say whether this is true or not. If I had to guess, I'd say that the design is usually *not* included.


Originally posted by GWDGuy
If a client pays you for your work it in now theirs. Sure it would be nice to keep your name attached to it so the world knows it's yours.

Robert
See above. A client often pays you for the service of designing the site. They do not always nor automatically purchase the actual design itself. As I said, by default, the design is owned by the creator of the work (that being you).



Originally posted by BravoComm
If you want to retain your copyright make sure you contract it that way... I was under the impression however that most people sell the copyright with the designs.

This is good advice regardless. As I said, most people assume that when they have a designer design a site, it is theirs when in fact this is simply not the case. What they have done is paid for the service of the design, not the design itself.

While you do not (legally) have to have a contract that states that you retain ownership of the design, it would be smart to lay all of this out clearly so that the customer does not feel cheated, when in fact they haven't been. If they feel cheated because they didn't get what they assumed they were getting, it won't be good for either of you.

There is a difference between legalities and customer relations.


As for the actual question:
Originally posted by consul
You were commissioned to do a website design. Then the client loves it. He pays for it. Then later, the client happens to have some other priorities and [b]decided to sell the website (which includes your design). What will be the legal implication?
I'm not sure exactly what the standard ruling on this is, without a contract. Obviously if there is a written contract that covers this, then everyone is on the same page and there won't be any misunderstanding. I do not know what is assumed and what is legal in lieu of a contract. My suggestion is to cover this in your terms.

Wow, thanks for the replies everyone. What a wonderful insight. We learned significantly from the posts.

Chicken, you somehow explained it well. Thanks.

:)

http://www.viennapat.com/newsletter/vol2iss2/webownership.htm
(specifically the first paragraph)

http://home.earthlink.net/~ivanlove/website.html
(pretty good explanation)

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/202.html
(Good old title 17 chapter 2 sec. 202)

http://www.bitlaw.com/source/17usc/index.html
(title 17 in it's full form)

http://www.rbs2.com/copyr.htm
(A very dry explanation but good)

http://www.adobe.com/web/features/copyright/main.html
(very good article from Adobe)

In a nutshell, if you create an original work then you own the copyright to it. If you sell that work... you still own the copyright. If a client sells a website you made, to someone else, they're selling a work you own the copyright to.

Greg Moore

incidently, just reading through title 17 myself just now, there's some hefty compensation figures written into it for violations for a first offence ($7500 - $75000)

Greg Moore

Also be aware of "moral rights" -- specifically, the author of a work has the right to be recognized (or not, as he prefers) as such, even if he has sold the copyright to that work.