Hi everyone!
I'm new here. I hope I'm posting this in the right forum.

I am interested in breaking into web site developing and design. From the looks of this site, so are a lot of other people. While doing some gratis work on a site that I've been developing in my spare time for a club that I belong to (I also host it on my own VPS along with a couple other small sites I've built), it occured to me that I've acquired a respectable amount of virtually useless knowledge along the way. So, I was wondering, is it practical to try to break into doing free lance work? I mean, it isn't likely that a company would hire me to do any 'real' IT work since I don't have employment in the field, nor do I have a computer related BS degree. I don't even have a respectable portfolio to show anyone since all the work that I have done has been gratis and consequently, the sites are minimalist in nature (in some respects), focussing more on functionality than design. Would it be a bad idea to do a few sites for free in order to build a portfolio? That's assuming that anyone would even hire me for a job. What I would like to do is turn all my "useless knowledge" into something of real value. I'm not talking about building a couple sites with FrontPage. Everything I've done has been in HTML, CSS, JavaScript, PHP/MySql, Flash, ActionScript etc. I have been known to swipe a script here and there, but mainly I create my own. Is there a place for a self-taught woman in this field? I'd really like to hear your opinions. :)

You could offer to do some sites, banners or logos for free in the template and graphics forum to build up a portfolio. If your work is good, word of mouth will spread the word and then when you have a decent portfolio, start charging :)

yes, the key is to create a very well presented portfolio. Indeed starting out is difficult and getting hired for a freelance position is probably not viable. However, you can offer to do some work on the side in exchange for services, or you can start by building yourself a nice site and using that to display your portfolio. Also, you can start by creating some "dummy sites" then turn around and sell those sites off to potential clients. This way you have a portfolio, and you arn't really working for free ;)

Thanks for the tips. I just went over to scriptlance.com... Geesh! How depressing! Okay, so how long do you think I'd have to work for free before I could be making $5/hr??? LOL Is that the best one can hope for? I mean, just to give you an idea of my age, my first computer was a Commodore 64 and I learned Basic on it and on a TRS-80... anyone here know what those are?? Shoot, I might as well have put my birthday down on my profile, huh?

The thing is you never know when you'll start getting a income, I hear with web design and logo stuff etc, The pay can sometimes be a bit inconsistent but when it does come in, its worth it. Basically the reason why you may have to do some work for free to build up a portfolio its because people want to see your work before they hire you.
Good luck with the venture
Regards
And besides age dosent matter :D

yes.....as a freelancer one can make good bucks bidding for work on many freelancing sites

Originally posted by grrlTechie
Thanks for the tips. I just went over to scriptlance.com... Geesh! How depressing! Okay, so how long do you think I'd have to work for free before I could be making $5/hr??? LOL Is that the best one can hope for? I mean, just to give you an idea of my age, my first computer was a Commodore 64 and I learned Basic on it and on a TRS-80... anyone here know what those are?? Shoot, I might as well have put my birthday down on my profile, huh? I grew up on those systems myself. :)

Back in 1981, my parents bought a Leading Edge, where I had my first encounters with the word processor Volkswriter. You couldn't do anything too fancy on it though...the daisywheel printer was only capable of so much. Life was much better once we upgraded to an Apple IIgs with a dot matrix printer when I was 11 or 12.

God, those were the days :)

Anywho, you really shouldn't have to do any free work to get started in the industry. A lot of people do, and that's ok - it's a choice everyone makes for him/herself. But remember, when you're giving away design for the purpose of kicking yourself off professionally, you're essentially sending the message that your work has no value. I don't care if you're doing your first site ever or your 1,000th. Your work has some intrinsic value. Otherwise, it's a waste of time for you and your customer. I started a little more than four years ago at $20/hr. The work I did was decent, if not a little amateurish (mostly from an engineering perspective). Over time, you learn things that translate directly into revenue, savings and/or customer perception of value that justify charging a higher rate for providing a professional service.

The bottom line is that if you don't feel comfortable expressing your value in terms of reasonable compensation for the work you do, it's likely your customers will not feel comfortable entrusting their business to you.

Originally posted by grrlTechie
I mean, just to give you an idea of my age, my first computer was a Commodore 64 and I learned Basic on it and on a TRS-80... anyone here know what those are??

Yeah, but I had to use my Cousin's because I had an Apple ][+. There's a thread here about that:

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=295299

While there are plenty of kids around WHT, there are also quite a few of us dinosaurs about.

I think we're the same age grrlTechie because I was programming on Model 1's in the early 80's too.

One idea is to try and attack a nice in web design and build up a rep that way. There may be some women owned businesses that are willing to use you because they want to help other women owned businesses.

My experience in design and content is limited but I do have experience in promoting my own site. I found I could not compete directly in a competitive category but when I focused on a niche market I was able to achieve a position of "local" dominance.

Originally posted by the_pm

you really shouldn't have to do any free work to get started in the industry.

I agree with you. A job is a job is a job. Unfortunately, people with the ability to pay will usually pay someone with a track record before they will someone without. I do place a value on my work.

Originally posted by DevilDog

One idea is to try and attack a nice in web design and build up a rep that way. There may be some women owned businesses that are willing to use you because they want to help other women owned businesses.

Great idea! I'll have to give a little more thought on how to market that. Coincidentally, I was at a dinner party tonight where a gentleman there is in management overseeing an IT dept for some firm. He explained to me that they outsource everything to India... $35/hr vs. $110/hr in the US. I don't think they deal in web aps, but it still doesn't bode well for US developers.

You might try locally first - there are always small businesses around that either have no website, or horrible ones. These are a great place to start because as long as they know you are just getting started, then they know they are/will get a good deal for it --- chances are it's cost that has kept them from getting one in the first place, or at least a good one if they have a terrible one already which gives you a competitive advantage over others.

Check your phone book maybe - look for people who have picture ads in the yellow pages - see if they have a site. If they have no site, but do have an ad, that can be good - they have invested money in an ad already which means chances are you can convince them of the value of a website - especially when theyknow they will be getting a deal from you (I don't recommend doing them for free) as you are just getting established.

Just an idea(s) ;)

Originally posted by PlaneWalker
You might try locally first - there are always small businesses around that either have no website, or horrible ones. These are a great place to start because as long as they know you are just getting started, then they know they are/will get a good deal for it --- chances are it's cost that has kept them from getting one in the first place, or at least a good one if they have a terrible one already which gives you a competitive advantage over others.

Check your phone book maybe - look for people who have picture ads in the yellow pages - see if they have a site. If they have no site, but do have an ad, that can be good - they have invested money in an ad already which means chances are you can convince them of the value of a website - especially when theyknow they will be getting a deal from you (I don't recommend doing them for free) as you are just getting established.

Just an idea(s) ;)

Honestly, I don't know where my head has been. I'm usually a *little* better at business than this. You made me realize that I really haven't tried very hard locally. Even people that *I* do business with I've only briefly asked them about having a web site. Virtually all of them are negative about it. Tomorrow, I'm going to drop my bike off at my mechanics for some routine maintenence. He already politely turned me down. What would you think if I offered to build it for him with no obligation, get him his domain (in my name of course) and host it for him on my server for say, 6 months. What I get from him is his full cooperation in constructing the site (content, marketing etc) and the promise that at the end of the six months, he purchases the site from me for x dollars, contracts the hosting and site management with me for one year, and lets me keep a link on his site for the duration of the time that I host the site for him? The money he owes me, if he decided to buy the site, would be credited to me for services on my bike. What do you think?

Also, I've seen a bunch of people offering to build sites for like $50 US. I can't even see the most basic site being $50. Is there something I'm missing?

As far as not doing them for free, what would you suggest a good starting price to be?

I really appreciate all your guys' input. I should have been doing this long before now.

get him his domain (in my name of course)This is generally considered an underhanded technique. I'm sure this isn't your intention, but locking in a customer by holding his name hostage does not win you brownie points with the customer or within the industry. I'd either register it with him as the owner and present it as a gift, or make him aware of its availability when you go to talk with him about your ideas.

Bartering is a great way to get started! I still do it from time to time myself. I'm in the process now of building up about $8k in store credit with a local jeweler who needs front-end Web work done, along with integration of a custom-built catalog/shopping application and a few other things. This is how I'm paying for wedding rings for me and my fiancee. If you rely on the bike shop to keep you going, work out a deal with them. That's a great idea!

I'm not sure I'd offset the balance six months though. Is this so he can decide if he likes what you've done? Are you offering this to him on a trial/spec basis, where he can back out later? The risks in this are obvious, but in my experience, in a handshake and barter deal like this, people will generally treat each other fairly - I doubt he'll back out. If this isn't the intention of you offsetting by six months, I'd work it out to start the trade right away. He gets his site, you get good bike service, and after six months if he likes the arrangement, you can continue it, or he can end it and the site comes down - hopefully he won't opt to go that route, but that will be a good test for your skills, to see if you've done your job such that he can see the value in it having been done. If you have, great! If not, it's a small loss, and you have a chance to debrief the whole project and figure out what worked and what didn't work piece by piece - a valuable exercise, and you still have a good bike to ride for six months :)

Also, I've seen a bunch of people offering to build sites for like $50 US. I can't even see the most basic site being $50. Is there something I'm missing?Yes, you're missing the part where customers get **** service and a lot of excuses, and the part where these people realize they've built an unsustainable business and either move on (leaving customers hanging) or raise their prices, giving their customers a nasty shock.

As far as not doing them for free, what would you suggest a good starting price to be?Your first time pricing your work, you'll probably screw it up. You'll quote something much less than you're worth, and you'll come to find out the customer figured it was normal to pay thousands of dollars for a Web site (and this is normal). Or, you'll quote something low but not low enough, and your customer will have no idea whatsoever about what sites are worth and think you're supposed to be offering sites for $50.

For your first time, stick it to yourself a bit. Get the scope of the project down so you have a good idea how long it will take. Then, toss a number out there that you're willing to accept but that you instinctively know is very reasonable for the time you're prepared to spend. My first site for a customer was $460. The next three of four after that were around the same price. As you learn more about the trade, you learn how applying knowledge in certain ways can translate directly into gains and improvements in your customers' bottom lines. When that happens, you push your prices up, because you're worth more and you deserve proper compensation.

So, maybe you ask for $300 in store credit at the bike shop, which only costs him $150 in merchandise (guessing on markup), or his time if you're talking about repairs ($0 out-of-pocket expense). Or maybe a little more, or maybe a little less. Once you've decided what this project is worth, you present it with confidence and you make him understand you believe in the value of your work. Maybe, just maybe, he'll take a chance on you. Maybe, just maybe, he'll be your springboard for a long and fruitful career. :)

Originally posted by grrlTechie
Great idea! I'll have to give a little more thought on how to market that. Coincidentally, I was at a dinner party tonight where a gentleman there is in management overseeing an IT dept for some firm. He explained to me that they outsource everything to India... $35/hr vs. $110/hr in the US. I don't think they deal in web aps, but it still doesn't bode well for US developers.

Sorry, I meant to type niche in my last post.

That's no joke about India or China for that matter. We're going to be losing some of that edge in the years to come. Some of those companies do really good work and they speak English really well.

There is a really good article about that in the current issue of Wired.

Originally posted by DevilDog
Sorry, I meant to type niche in my last post.

Yeah, it took me a few seconds, but I figured that out ;) They'd probably take away my geek-ette card if I didn't! LOL