3 months ago I hired a programming company in Europe to write some custom programming for a new site. I found them through eLance.com. They were to set up a db, write some php, and also create a downloadable win32 client program.

The project is close to completion, and I have paid 70% of the overall project fee.

In a very disturbing ICQ conversation with the programmer this morning, he admitted that he is using an unauthorized version of the Borland compiler and the Wise installer software. He suggested that I may encounter difficulty selling my product in the US because of this. What????

This has sent my head spinning. What do I do? How do I find out if I will be receiving a "legal" and "usable" product?

I'm not sure how Borland and Wise programs work. Would my product be "detectable" to them?

If a webmaster uses a pirated version of, let's say, Dreamweaver, a site can go online without any legal ramifications. Macromedia has no way of detecting if the site was built with a registered version or not.

Is it different with Borland or Wise products? Frankly, I couldn't care less if the "tools" the programmer is using are legal or not. That's not my business. But if it comes back on me after I pay for the final product and use it on my site, then it becomes my business.

Can anyone give me any advice on this dilemma??
I would sure appreciate it...

Vito

Vito,
I believe it would be easy to detect your InstallerWise install license. I mean, it's an install program. They would be dumb if they hadn't included a way of tracing the origine of a package.
Plus it's not the question: you'll be making money of a stolen product. I don't know the legal ramifications, but it's looking pretty bad; if possible you should FORCE them to buy their own license.
You paid 70% of the product, could the remaining 30% be enough for buying these licenses? You could try talking them into this...

What I know for sure is: no more business with these guys, ever. And you should even reveal who they are, at least to eLance.com.

I doubt if borland or wise did include some form of detector. However, legally speaking, this is illegal.

I suggest that you demand the programmer to either buy a legal copy to compile the program, or ask them for the source code, and compile it yourself with a legal copy.(Or find someone who has a legal license to compile for you).

Peter

Thanks for the replies.
What I did was I emailed them and gave them 2 options. Either provide a legal and usable finished product, or provide a full refund. I gave them until Monday to decide.

What I don't get is that if you visit http://www.borland.com/bcppbuilder/freecompiler/ , you can download a Borland compiler for free. Unless they need a different type of Borland product, I don't understand what the problem is (regarding the compiler).

Geez, what a hassle. Why did I have to hook up with a programmer that works in the shadows?? You wouldn't believe the comments he made in the ICQ session about his laisse-faire attitude towards legalities (which I copied and saved, BTW).

Here's a taste:

Programmer(12:16 AM) :
1) Borland -- we are using non-licensed copy of it's compiler to build client program
Programmer(12:16 AM) :
2) Wise -- for install package
Vito(12:17 AM) :
So?
Programmer(12:17 AM) :
So you may have problems distributing the client in the USA
Vito(12:18 AM) :
What??? You KNOWINGLY put me in a position where I may not freely promote what I am paying you for??
Programmer(12:19 AM) :
that's why I want to be distant from any "legal issues"
Vito(12:19 AM) :
Then what am I PAYING you for?? An UNUSABLE product???
Programmer(12:20 AM) :
Good question.
Programmer(12:20 AM) :
My answer is:
Programmer(12:20 AM) :
you was paying for the WORK, not the "product"
Programmer(12:21 AM) :
again: the only we can do is to do OUR WORK , produsing the code
Vito(12:21 AM) :
Don't play games. If you write code for me, it is reasonable and expected that I can use it. Otherwise what is the point of paying for it??
Programmer(12:22 AM) :
you was paying for the work. we does not playing games.
Vito(12:22 AM) :
That's like saying I will build a car for you, but with unauthorized parts, so you can't legally drive it but we got paid for the "work"
Programmer(12:22 AM) :
als, I'm not sure is it legally possible to use the client in USA
Programmer(12:24 AM) :
concernint\ng the cars, we are "mechanics", nor car vendors
Programmer(12:17 AM) :
So you may have problems distributing the client in the USA
Vito(12:28 AM) :
BUT WILL IT BE LEGAL?
Programmer(12:28 AM) :
Will it be legal -- I don't know
Programmer(12:29 AM) :
you are American, so you have to know american law better.
Vito(12:29 AM) :
That is incredibly irresponsible of you as a programmer to NOT know.
Vito(12:29 AM) :
You're spending MY money on a possibly ILLEGAL product.
Programmer(12:30 AM) :
again, our _work_ is perfectly legal
Programmer(12:31 AM) :
I'm very sorry
Programmer(12:31 AM) :
really
Programmer(12:32 AM) :
We are used to _ignore_ any legal/copyright issues.
Programmer(12:32 AM) :
we concentrate our efforts on programming only
Programmer(12:32 AM) :
we cannot afford to hire a lawer here.
Vito(12:33 AM) :
You cannot put blinders on and make unauthorized use of software while writing a program. You open your customer up to a greast risk. CAN'T YOU SEE THAT??
Programmer(12:34 AM) :
Sure, I cannot see.
Programmer(12:34 AM) :
sorry.
Vito(12:34 AM) :
Sorry doesn't do ANYTHING for me once I've spent my money.
Vito(12:39 AM) :
If you illegally used other software in the construct of my project, your work is not usable, and therefore useless. I never hired you thinking I would then have to go out and pay for additional licencing.
Programmer(12:41 AM) :
not _illegaly_ , but _possibly illegally from the USA's law point of view_
Programmer(12:41 AM) :
...and we are nor USA citizens, so it doesnt matters
Programmer(12:43 AM) :
we will never purchase a Borland compiler. We just cannot afford it.
Programmer(12:43 AM) :
so we use it on _our own_ risk.


At the very least, I will report them to eLance to warn other people.

Since you have a copy of your ICQ conversatin, I'd give that to e-lance. They have a whole dispute resolution procedure. You can prob. get all your money back.

Frank

It sounds terrible, and I can't understand their whole, "We wrote the code but you might have trouble distributing it in the U.S." garbage. They sound like a shady outfit (putting it nicely), and if you can't get resolution, I'd certainly take it up with e-lance.

Did you hire them from Europe, because they were cheaper? I want to see you try suing them. It will takes a loooong time for it to come through if it ever will. You'll fly to Europe? I hope this is a valuable lesson for everyone not to hire international programmers that you do not know. If you paid them via paypal or elance you should contact them. This is an ungly situation.

I guess I'll wait until Monday to see what response I get. If I don't get some kind of proof that I am getting a legal/usable product, I will present everything to elance and fight for a full refund.

Pity, though. I just wasted 3 months in this project. I was planning on launching this site in a few weeks. It's a really good product I have to offer webmasters.

As far as suing them, that's not my intention. I will simply hope to get eLance's co-operation in getting a refund.

I did not select them based on price. They were actually the only company that responded to my requirements in my original post at eLance. I needed someone proficient in php, mysql, dhtml and javascript. I would have preferred to work with a programmer in Canada or the US.

Oh well. Life is full of hurdles. This is just another one.

Vito, can I ask where this programmer is located (in what country)?

Originally posted by vito
I needed someone proficient in php, mysql, dhtml and javascript.

Why then did they need a Borland compiler ?
They could use Notepad to write that.

They are located in the Ukraine.
I'm just on my way out for the night. (need a break)
If any further replies, I will respond tomorrow morning...

Seems like lots of people are getting screwed these days. When chosing a developer for your project make sure you are able to beat the crap out of them after about an hour's drive. Don't go hiring teenagers off eLance who live on the other side of the world. Make sure you get refferences.

Why then did they need a Borland compiler ?
They could use Notepad to write that.
I'm with Fr£d, where does Borland or Wise even fit into this picture?

I don't see why you have to abondone the project and get a new developer. All you need to do is to get the source code from them, and compile it yourself.

Peter

Any dealings with former USSR nations about software should send up red flags.

If all you needed was web code this can all be done with things like notepad. Like everyone else here why do you need them?

Originally posted by ckpeter

I suggest that you demand the programmer to either buy a legal copy to compile the program, or ask them for the source code, and compile it yourself with a legal copy.(Or find someone who has a legal license to compile for you).


I agree with Peter. In the worst case scenario have them send the source code then find someone who can legally compile it for you. Also for the installer program couldn't they use a free alternative like: http://www.nullsoft.com/free/nsis/ ?

Well, I'm not sure this is a big deal, really. I might be mistaken, but it sounds like they just are using a cracked version of the Borland compiler. If they compile the code and you distribute it with that cracked compiler having compiled it, people might think that you used this illegal copy of the Borland software to create a program to sell, while not paying Borland to use their tool. I don't think you'd have any legal ramifications for that, but there's no reason to use an illegal copy of a compiler anyway. I.e., they just used their illegal copy to code and test the code with. That doesn't mean you do. That's their business and problem. You pay for the code, as they said, unless you paid them to compile it -- and anyone can do that. Worse case, you just use a legal copy of the tool to compile it, or use another tool... like Visual C/C++. Assuming the code is portable to other tools, which it should be. You don't have to worry about what they compile it on. It's like someone using a stolen TV to test a DVD player they built for you -- it shouldn't affect you, but you should be glad they mentioned it.

It's not that they aren't at fault or didn't do anything wrong, but I don't think you should worry if they stole the computer they are running the Borland compiler on either, since the code they created is what is the issue for you here. If you're worried about not being able to compile it, there's plenty of people that would surely be willing to help you out by compiling it on their Borland compiler (or another compiler), for no charge, and it's be perfectly legal. I can understand you might have expected a compiled and working program to distribute, but all you need to worry about from them, is to have the code and a working example from them so you can know it (the code) works to your satisfaction and it's irrelevant what they used to supply that working example to you with/from. If this is the case, don't worry about it. Get the code and tel them to at least compile it on a legal copy, or you can do it yourself or have someone do that for you. I think that's what they meant by what they said, even though they obviously lack the ability to use the English language very well at all.

Originally posted by Tim_Greer
even though they obviously lack the ability to use the English language very well at all.

Good post except for the end bit. Their english is a lot better than my Ukranian that's for sure...

The former sovient union is a bit of a funny place when ti comes to copyright. It's just one of those things they literally don't even think about as it's not applicable. You should probably have considered that when you hired them and done some homework. But as it turns out, just try to get the source and finish up the deal. Next time, hire someone a little more locally (at least in terms of copyright and business laws)

Greg Moore

For sure, the language comment was not to insult them. However, language barriers exist, and due to that it's not always easy to get the point across on either side, or to understand the issues people might have. After all, if they understood the problem at hand, they might have better explained it in such a manner. Nonetheless, I don't see this as a concern, but I might not know all the aspects involved either, of course (or if my assumption was correct).

Genius, more then 10 year passed. USSR has nothing to do with this. If you are trying to say that former USSR countries are in anyway bad, well I'll have to laugh in your face. It is sad however that he ripped off like this. I don't know why you'd hire the only person that replied to you. That tells something.

The company I work for that does custom software would include WISE as an itemized part of the bid or would leave it up to the client to obtain. WISE may require a per-project license anyway. So just purchase a WISE license, have them use it to build your distribution, and you're fine. If you are concerned with them using your license to build other installs for people, just remember that you were required to pay, and you did pay, so what they do is not your problem. If you discovered it was used, you could report the distribution to WISE and I'm sure they would take care of the legal battle.

As for the compiler, it is their problem and not yours. They may not have paid for the development tools, but compilers are generally freeware, so I would expect that you can use their compiled version regardless. And as some pointed out, I don't think you can even determine what compiler was used to build an executable, much less whether or not it was paid. But regardless it shouldn't be your problem.

My thoughts summary: I'm sure you will need to by WISE installer (~$349?), but compiler should be fine with theirs.

Thanks to all for your wisdom. You folks are great. I'm really glad I found this forum.

Summary:
1) Be more discerning when choosing a programmer
2) Get the source code from these yahoos and get the finished product done myself
3) Tuck this lesson under my belt and learn from it

I really do appreciate all your input.

Vito

Well, I just got an email from the programmer that said:

--------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, Vito.

We considered the problem and agree to satisfy your request.

We hereby grant that:
1) we will use licensed (legal) win32 compiler
to build win32 binary executable 1.0 win client.
2) we will use licensed "install packager" to create installation
package 1.0
OR create an application which does NOT require installation.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Question: How do I ensure that they will actually use licenced versions? Am I just going to take their word for it? Is it sufficient protection to simply keep a copy of this email so that the onus would fall back on the programmer, not on me if there was ever an issue in the future?

That's fine. If you can't tell for sure it was a legal copy, who else can. You're not liable for what they use. There's no reason why you can't compile it on a known copy anyway, if it can be verified somehow.

Well, Tim, I may not be able to tell it's a legal copy, but perhaps Borland and/or Wise have detection scripts that can. In any event, I will accept their statement, save all correspondence and carry on with the project.

You're right, if at some point I want to be sure, I can always have it re-compiled to be on the safe side.

I know what you mean and it's wise to be concerned with this. However, it's really very, very simple to just do it yourself anyway. After a few times doing it, it'll be like having someone giving you PHP code, and you won't think about how or where they developed it, since you can upload the scripts yourself. Getting familiar with compilers is good, if you deal much in having programs or just the code created for you.

Just a check: is the Borland code C or Delphi?

If it's Delphi, and they used Delphi Personal Edition, then any code written in it cannot be sold legaly, even the final product (even if it is compiled in Proffesional or Enterprise etc) cannot be sold.

Douglas

I thought I would get my 2 cent in. First off, I think they are just lieing about haveing a legit version now. First they say its outta their price range(and I belive he said the words "will never by it"). Unless you are paying them more money then those two software packages cost, I wouldnt hold my breath. So get the binaries and get the source code(make sure to get both). If you feel he is lieing, get someone you know to compile it and you will feel better. Now copyright laws are really messed up internationally, most other places could care less if their people are using illegal software, hence why so much pirated software comes from other counties, no one cares. So after you get all the stuff, report him if you have not already done so. If you get what you paied for from the programmer, do not attempt to get your money back, just inform that place that one of the programmers listed is using pirated software. Simple and not to many people get hurt.

As for what CChard said about the USSR, that is not true. A lot of companies depend on other countries, specificly Russia, for a cost efficient way to make programs. Just take Plesk for example, if they used American programmers, the cost of their software would be a couple times more then it is now.

Originally posted by Panzerfaust
Did you hire them from Europe, because they were cheaper? I want to see you try suing them. It will takes a loooong time for it to come through if it ever will. You'll fly to Europe? I hope this is a valuable lesson for everyone not to hire international programmers that you do not know. If you paid them via paypal or elance you should contact them. This is an ungly situation.

Uhm...you have got yourself some international outlook there my friend. Take off them blinkers and dark glasses..throw away those callipers...I know you can see if only you try my friend.

Simon