Hi,

Today suddenly when I logged into my PayPal.com account I found that my paypal.com account is restricted because there stupid security systems flagged it with *(^(&#^*^. :kaioken:

Now system is telling me to fax my credit card statement and license copy. I have been using paypal.com for more then year without any problems. I have 3 working credit card registered with them. There was never, any charge backs etc. My account was blocked 3 times before this without any reasons and some how I got managed to get it unblocked. :(

Now I feel very harassed by this company and realize the claims made by people about paypal.com must be true, because I am the victim this time. :bawling:

I am also thinking about emailing my 1000's of clients informing them about this paypal.com practice and a message that our company will no longer accept PayPal due to fraudulent practices by this company and suggesting them not to use there service. :mad:

Another Very Annoyed paypal.com Member. :angry:

p.s.: Oh yeah I feel good because 10 days before there was more then $3000+ and I paid to somebody and now there are only $100 and I am not going to fax these documents to them ! what do you think ! should I ?. after all my credit card statement contains my financial information, why should I send it to this company ? :mad:

eh, i just started to use paypal and im fine with them till they **** me over like a no arm and no leg lady throw into a pool

most people don't get it until they get kick on there ass.

i realized this, when it is happening with me.

Oh, NO No no, how can this be true, this is not happening with me. how can they do this to me. ;)

Got it !? :D

eh paypal is evil and i dont have a CC so my only use is paypal, said but true... shame on me

To add on to the paypal "hate list" scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://www.techtv.com/cybercrime/internetfraud/story/0,23008,3370214,00.html

is0lized: KEWL: you're one post away from being a WHT Addict :)

Well done!

Originally posted by is0lized
eh, i just started to use paypal and im fine with them till they **** me over like a no arm and no leg lady throw into a pool
:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Originally posted by Sesran

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


LOL :D

Originally posted by mahinder

p.s.: Oh yeah I feel good because 10 days before there was more then $3000+ and I paid to somebody and now there are only $100 and I am not going to fax these documents to them !


Thats probably why you are having problems. They only allow a certain amount of cash flow out of your account at one time then they start to track you. The FBI has been down on them for international money lundering, so they must do this.

Not taking sides, just explain what I have heard.


Jim

Originally posted by jimb



Thats probably why you are having problems. They only allow a certain amount of cash flow out of your account at one time then they start to track you. The FBI has been down on them for international money lundering, so they must do this.

Not taking sides, just explain what I have heard.


Jim

common, its my money, I can use it where ever I want, who is paypal.com to restrict it and ask for documentation and credit card statements, I already confirmed my 3 credit cards with there credit card verification systems where they charge $1, isn't this enough for them to know I am the owner of credit cards, also if they have any such kind of concerns, why don't they clearly state FBI have problems with my account and not paypal.com and I will be more then happy to submit required documents.

or paypal.com is simply trying to make money from peoples accounts by harassing them to give up and leave there money like one of our forum member did for more then $2000 and I know them personally and they are very reputable company.

anyway, I learned lesson not to use there crap service and definitely going to make many people aware of there business practices. :o

edit:
they claim 20 million accounts, if they disable 1% accounts like they did to me and only 5% of people give up with around $500 they get strait revenues of $million.

We had approx $512 taken away from us, but managed to recover 200. We are switching to 2checkout.com and leaving PayPal as a bad memory. :rolleyes:

yeah paypal is a bitch :angry:

where is the paypaldeamon ? :angry:

Originally posted by mahinder
where is the paypaldeamon ? :angry:

He hasnt posted on here for ages.

Originally posted by is0lized
eh, i just started to use paypal and im fine with them till they **** me over like a no arm and no leg lady throw into a pool
LOL. This post didn't get censored.:D

Please feel free to pm me your account email address, or you can email me directly (damon@paypal.com). I need to see the reason why the account was restricted.

As a reminder, account restrictions are very rare. Our terms of use do indicate the reasons an account can be restricted. In addition, we do have some very strong anti-fraud measures in place that do catch legitimate users at times.

Thank you for your patience.

I still have not received an email from you regarding your account email address. I would like to have the issue resolved, so I would like to look into it.

Now I feel very harassed by this company and realize the claims made by people about paypal.com must be true, because I am the victim this time. Ditto! I am also thinking about emailing my 1000's of clients informing them about this paypal.com practice and a message that our company will no longer accept PayPal due to fraudulent practices by this company and suggesting them not to use there service. Ditto! Please feel free to pm me your account email address, or you can email me directly (damon@paypal.com). I need to see the reason why the account was restricted. I phoned paypal multiple times concerning this very issue. I spoke with multiple people who told me the same thing over and over and over and over again "It was restricted for suspicious activity during the sending or receipt of funds." I asked multiple times "What else could be done with paypal if not the sending or receipt of money?" They of course had no answer for that, and were unable to explain WHAT EXACTLY caused the restriction. The most I could get was "The system flagged it so you have to comply".

I asked how I would go about closing the paypal account and receiving my funds if I refused to send them the requested documentation (Credit Card Statement, Bank Statement, Utility Bills AND Drivers License...yes they want ALL OF IT at MINIMUM). I was told that if I closed the account w/o providing all of the above it would be around 180 days prior to them releasing the funds. I am _NOT_ a happy camper.

The reps were rude and condescending and could only find it within themselves to repeat POLICY and offer NOTHING of value that would assist in resolving the issue outside of "Do what we say or say goodbye to your funds". I tried repeatedly to explain that AT MINIMUM they should be able to tell me what transaction triggered the restriction so that I could PREVENT that type of transaction from happening again -- They would NOT do this.

They've left me with no choice but to send the documentation requested. Mind you, I'll obviously be taking a HUGE Black Marker to each document leaving ONLY the required information barely visible as their request for so much is ridiculous ESPECIALLY if they cannot provide a REASON for the flag outside of "Well the computer said so.".

I have a client waiting for a refund to their paypal account and I can NOT send this refund to them because of paypal's restriction... Note however, paypal continues to RECEIVE the money and keep it in their interest bearing account...

It wasn't but a few months ago that paypal called me personally asking if I would like to buy into their IPO -- It was posts like these that caused me NOT to.... and situations like this one that solidify the fact that my choice not to was probably a good one.

I stayed away from these threads because I had not had personal experience with the problems reported. It was not my place to speak. Now however, these issues have hit right where it hurts and I'll have no problem speaking loudly every time I see PP mentioned.

I could have dealt with their "POLICY" had it of been given to me in a RESPECTABLE fashion... but the Rude, uninformative, refusal to assist attitude, mixed with the "perceived feeling of theft", is uncalled for.

PayPal seems to be a great service when it's working as you expect it to but... Buyer Beware this could (and probably will at some point) happen to you. It will be most uncomfortable when it does.

Nail the Fraud PayPal -- But be careful not to wound the innocent!

I am sorry to hear of the issues you have had. However, it is really hard for me to advise you on why the account was restricted without the account information.

It does appear that there may be some question about the integrity of the funds coming in. As a precaution to protect our user base ,the account was restricted. The restriction can be resolved with the requested documentation.

Our User Agreement does state the reasons an account can be restricted. We do have some aggressive anti-fraud measures in place that do catch legitimate users at times, so I do apologize for any inconvenience you have had. I also apologize if you have had any issues going through customer service (however, they do have a hard time going forward without the requested documentation being presented).

As it relates to the refund to your client, that is an issue I can work with our account management team (it would require your permission to refund the user).

Please feel free to contact me, as I would like to see closure on your case.

Sorry Damon but this issue isn't "yours" to resolve. I provided all of the requested information to Tasha in the "Appeals or Dispute" Resolution department and Micheal on the frontline and two other ladies when this began also on the frontlines. In addition to the FAXs tonight.

I cannot imagine you being able to accomplish more, and I am unwilling to send the info to their "forum poster" as much as I can respect your attempt to help.

If the "Appeals Department", as the ones responsible for this issue, cannot provide the information and the three other "customer service reps" could not then why/how would you be able to as a "customer relations" rep?

The Account is the only one held by FutureQuest, Inc. and the report of complaints on this account should be growing on PP's files.

Sending the info -again- seems unsecure and a waste of time at this point. I will wait the "up to a week" they requested and if it is not completed as promised (just like them promising to call me back and not doing so) then I'll send the details to our attorney. There are some things worth wasting lawyer fees on. Principle being a big one in my book...

So again, thank you for your apology however after what I have dealt with while speaking with other reps for PP I cannot imagine the apology, or your offer to assist, is one that PP stands behind therefore your hands would be just as tied as the others.

I would LOVE to close the PP account however I still have quite a few clients that prefer to use it. Hopefully PPs system will work faster at restricting accounts for "suspicious activity" so less and less of our clients enjoy the service. At that point it'll be easy for me to rm -rf PayPal.

I think that as long as you don't report "suspicious activity" to Paypal, you'll have a lesser chance of having your account restricted :).

Funny thing about it is that I've gone over ALL of the activity on our PP account and there simply isn't anything abnormal about any of it nor has there EVER been a complaint or report on the account. Good ol' Tasha even confirmed that she could see nothing wrong with the account -- except for the fact that it's RESTRICTED :bawling: :angry:

Originally posted by Deb
...I spoke with multiple people who told me the same thing over and over and over and over again "It was restricted for suspicious activity during the sending or receipt of funds." I asked multiple times "What else could be done with paypal if not the sending or receipt of money?" They of course had no answer for that, and were unable to explain WHAT EXACTLY caused the restriction. The most I could get was "The system flagged it so you have to comply"...

...I asked how I would go about closing the paypal account and receiving my funds if I refused to send them the requested documentation (Credit Card Statement, Bank Statement, Utility Bills AND Drivers License...yes they want ALL OF IT at MINIMUM). I was told that if I closed the account w/o providing all of the above it would be around 180 days...

..."Well the computer said so."...

Very interesting. Thank you for posting your experiences. I have recently signed up with PayPal as I was thinking of offering it for my clients as well. I can honestly say that I won't be anymore. Luckily I haven't actually "Verified" the account because I wanted to investigate other claims I've read elsewhere about similar issues. I am happy that I didn't complete everything as they require.

Sorry to hear that you have had problems along with all the others that have posted responses. As far as anyone screaming at me for making this decision before truly trying their service, why should I wait until this happens to then say "well I guess I can complain now."? It shouldn't be that way. Oh' well, I guess I'll just stick to the several other methods of payment already in place.

I am not asking you to submit the information again. All I am asking for is your account email address to see what the issue is, as well as to see if the case is being worked.

As I stated, I am flying blind without having this. I can't give you an idea as to what caused the fraud flags in our system without the email address.

I can't give you an idea as to what caused the fraud flags in our system without the email address. Email address is in your pm and on our Billing page as a payment option.

I am CURRENTLY on hold with PayPal -- Maybe they are closed? shrug tis their dime....

I have been on hold for 1 hour and 20 minutes now...I'll let their music play on the speaker phone all night long if need to...makes for mellow office music -- shrug.

I sent ALL of the requested documents to PayPal.

Bank Statements
Credit Card Statements
Driver's License
Utility Bills

Our account has been restricted for a week. Last person stated it could be two more weeks.

I've spoken to Tera, Tasha, Will, Yoli, Micheal, and a few others (kick myself for failing to jot down their names). I've sent damon the info he asked for as well.

Tonight I got an email stating they want MORE INFORMATION:

All of the above AGAIN plus signed documents on bank letterhead, from our banks, explaining that we have an account with them and that I am a signer on that account.

The credit card statements, bank statements, drivers license copy, and utility bills were NOT ENOUGH FOR THEM and though they claim they have them, they request I send them AGAIN.

I have provided "paypaldamon" with the email address and though he has been kind, he obviously was not able to resolve this either.

PayPal has now been removed from the FutureQuest Payment Options.

Once I calm down, I will be posting CLEAR REASONS why to our own clients. A REASON is something PayPal has yet to give me.

We have moved well over one hundred thousand dollars through paypal over the years without a problem. We were a GOOD ACCOUNT.

I've had it with paypal and will likely loose the thousands of dollars that are currently stuck in the account. Stuck there because though pay.....

....hey they've picked up the phone...

---------
20:33 Rang Paypal... was on hold for over an hour when I began typing the above..and finally at 21:44 they answer.

At 22:23 the call has ended.
-------

The result:

PayPal will NOT ALLOW ME TO CLOSE THE ACCOUNT <<=== WILL NOT ALLOW ME TO CLOSE THE ACCOUNT!

PayPal will NOT release a dime until the Restriction is resolved. To resolve the restriction I must supply the above documents and THEN they will REVIEW the account and if they require MORE information they will let me know. Time needed for them to review "oh up to another two weeks" to find out if they need more info.

I have requested the account to be RESTRICTED ALL OF THE WAY -- They do not know if they can do that?!?!?!?!?

Meaning, if I cannot touch the funds in the account (now about $3,000 since they wont let me touch the funds but they still allow people to send in funds) I do NOT want more people to deposit funds into that account.

I repeat: They do not know if they can do that?!?!?!?!? They will continue to accept funds on this RESTRICTED account and do not know if they can stop that from happening?

Mr. Will, a PP rep, has stated that he has sent the request to someone who would know but cannot tell me how long it will take to find out if it can be done.

So in the meantime ANYONE who sends money to the FutureQuest PayPal account is sending it to a blackhole and it CANNOT be retrieved.

Will I comply? Or will PayPal gain thousands of dollars because of their INSANE policy and inability to provide any useful information to what once was a good client that sang praises about them?

I now understand these restrictions -- PP is making a load of money by accepting funds sent to OTHER people and companies and keeping those funds as their own for an "unknown amount of time" depending on what "information" they decide to demand from their unreasonably restricted clients.

Shady at best.... legal? They seem to feel it is..and if you have a PP account then it would appear you have agreed to this practice in the UserAgreement.

Remember, it does NOT have to be YOU that did anything wrong. They can restrict the account for any number of reasons including: Their "computer" seeing anything it decides to flag as a reason to restrict... as well as, Someone else sends you a payment that "isn't right" -- We all know how much fraud is out there, if you get a fraud payment via PayPal you are likely to have ALL OF YOUR PAYMENTS restricted and if you sent money to someone else (Gawd forbid a refund to a client) they may restrict their account too!

It's kind of like deactivating ALL of your client's web sites, because ONE of your client's broke the terms of service. Additionally holding all of their files and not permitting them access until this is "resolved".

If you can close your account now..I personally would recommend doing so... I cannot stress enough what problems they can cause for you if this "Restriction Cloud" floats over your account. They will continue to take money for your goods or services but they will not permit you to have it unless you comply with their requests REGARDLESS what the requests are and the time it can take is up to PayPal. You may have no say in the matter and you may be given NO REASON.

hmmm I don't think I've ever vented on WHT before -- Does this make me a REAL Member now?

Oh My...

PayPal is up for an ebusiness award...

Details at:

http://www.mitawards.org/awards_finalists.asp

We've sent the following to them:

---

Subject: Urgent Letter Concerning PayPal Nomination
Body:

To whom it may concern,

I am writing in regards to your nomination of PayPal for your eBuisness Awards.

The reason for my writing is to inform you of shady practices conducted by PayPal according to many of its account holders.

For more information on these issues please visit the following links.

http://news.com.com/2100-1017-842240.html
http://www.msnbc.com/news/712822.asp?cp1=1
http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2001/02/23/pay_pal/
http://zdnet.com.com/2100-11-502663.html?legacy=zdnn
http://www.aota.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=11071
http://www.etn.nl/paypal/

I hope after reviewing this material, you will reconsider your nomination for PayPal for your prestigious awards.

Regards,

---

Possibly those of you who agree would like to contact them as well.

I have always reserved my opinion on paypal even after reading the *huge* number of bad reviews on webhostingtalk and other forums, since I don't know the reviewers personally. However, reading Deb's post above has changed my mind, since I *have* done business with her (or rather, futurequest) and know them to be a reputable and scrupulously honest company. I guess it's time to drop paypal from my list...

.

We'll be closing several PP accounts after this, and telling them why.

Always figured it "wouldn't happen to us", but if this was done to FutureQuest, then it's just out and out wrong. FQ has been the best, most respectable company we've worked with on the web.

I work in international funds transfer in an (ahem) very large financial institution. In fact, I designed the system they use for OFAC checking and have also been in contact with the bank's practices in fraud detection and money laundering prevention efforts, though I don't know as much about them as I do OFAC. OFAC is the U.S. Treasury Department office that handles restrictions on the assets and transactions of terrorist organizations, "rogue states", drug-traffickers, and so forth. Whenever Bush makes another announcement about impounding funds or restricting movement of funds, it lands in OFAC. You can read about OFAC restrictions at http://www.ustreas.gov/ofac.

There is a tremendous emphasis since Sept 11 on what's called in the financial industry KYC - Know Your Customer. It's driven by federal requirements in OFAC, money-laundering, and fraud prevention.

I can verify that what Paypal is doing with regard to keeping the incoming stream open on the account while closing the outgoing stream is what is required by the federal government when an account has been flagged for OFAC problems and probably it is the same with accounts flagged for money-laundering. Fraud detection requirements are also imposed by federal regulations and are usually enhanced by business policies.

I think Paypal got started thinking, hey it's easy, everything is easy on the internet, and they dove into offering their services without adequately guarding against their liability with regard to the government funds-movement regulations. Since Sept 11 and increased government scrutiny hit, they are getting caught up in trying to figure out how they can comply without unduly burdening their business model. When OFAC began to be serious about screening even automatic transactions back in the early 90s, when I got involved, the banking world had a hell of a time with this. Paypal is going through it now.

Take the context into account: Paypal is used by people who don't have credit cards, or who want to avoid the accountability and traceability of the credit-card system, or who can't pass the credit-check requirements for a merchant account. There is probably a lot of gray practice going on among the users of paypal. This is not to say that paypal per se is shady; but it's kind of a gray market alternative to the established funds-movement systems. I have no doubt that Paypal is being routinely used for extralegal purposes. Now the spotlight is on all kinds of financial alternatives, and they are needing to tighten their requirements, and they are likely to be going about it ham-fistedly. The government doesn't make it easy, as I am all too aware, to serve your customers well while remaining compliant.

Anyway, for what it's worth. I don't know the exact legal status of Paypal as a financial institution, or exactly which regs apply and how, but by analogy with the funds-transfer business in banking, I would guess it's similar. Paypal is probably not getting anything out of holding your money. The regulations require the money to be kept in interest-bearing accounts, and the interest to be paid to the account holder when and if the funds are released. If you think asking for your ID and credit card statements and so forth is intrusive, just consider that in the "real" financial world, they would have required all that stuff up front. Because of the world we live in, and the kind of uses to which money is put, it's just not going to remain easy to pass money around, no matter what new methods come out.

Ditto on choosing to no longer use PP based on Deb's comments.

It's past time for PP to be treated as a bank and fall under Gov't oversight.

Deb, there still has to be some sort of legal ramifications that you can pursue regarding this issue. I know they have their TOS written in a way where this is agreed upon but not if you have already provided them the requested documentation and have done absolutely nothing wrong in the first place. They're not even giving you a reason even though you've provided the documentation. As for the money in the account, don't give up on that. They have absolutely no right to that money since it isn't theirs. It appears that you are located in Florida. I would suggest contacting your states Attorney General's office. I'm in Michigan and they really frown on Internet fraud and practices such as what PayPal is running. I would also suggest contacting the Better Business Bureau especially if PayPal is a member.

I, too, have already cancelled my personal and business account with PayPal. Mostly because of this thread. As 'webmistressv' stated, we should do so and then write to them and tell them why. I will be doing that later today.

I hope that this "issue" is resolved quickly and on a positive side for yourself and your company.

After reading the nice posts by OFAC insiders it is clear that the U.S. government no longer believes in "innocent until proven guilty." The overtones of his post are clear, "those people aren't using credit cards so they must be money laundering drug dealers".

Paypal is happy to play along to these new "gov't requirements." Who wouldn't, they keep getting cash and don't have to pay it out. I wonder if they keep the interest on the money regardless of what the final outcome is... ...in some cases I bet companies just give up and paypal gets to keep the whole loot. Sweet, I think I'll buy some of their stock...

As of today, we have removed paypal as an option on our signup pages as well. I will not risk our funds in this manner. We will also be closing our business account. We have had limited signups thru PayPal, so I doubt they will miss us.

Your account has been un-restricted. I did advise you previously what caused the flags in our system.

While I realize that this has been frustrating, please realize that our anti-fraud measures do catch legitimate users at times. This one does look like a mistake on our end, so I do apologize. But it was because of some triggers with some other accounts that had made payments to your account.

As I have stated all along, account restrictions are actually quite rare. PayPal has a user base of well over ten million, so there will be account issues that become present on the net. That is one of the reasons I am out here...to assist users that could be having a problem. One frustrating thing? One account restriction creates cause for alarm by many users...when they are actually pretty rare (the reasons for a restriction can be found in the USER AGREEMENT).

I apologize for any inconvenience that this has caused you.

Deb,

Take your money and RUN! I have closed both my personal and by business PayPal account, and will advise as many as I can to do the same.

I will never again surf into the PayPal web site.

Damon -- I greatly appreciate your efforts and your kindness through this however as I explained before I find it alarming that the "normal routes" clients are to take with PayPal will not be greeted with the same kindness. But it was because of some triggers with some other accounts that had made payments to your account. This is why our account is being closed. The risk factor is too great. As I have stated all along, account restrictions are actually quite rare. PayPal has a user base of well over ten million, so there will be account issues that become present on the net A small percentage of Ten Million is a LOT of accounts!! (1% of ten million is ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND ACTIVE ACCOUNTS depending on PayPal to do the right thing.) My account alone generated $3,000 reasons to fear the risk of paypal. People require access to their funds and ability to utilize their accounts at all times ESPECIALLY if they have done nothing wrong. Whether it's $1 or $1 Million....

PayPal as a company needs to educate their staff and EMPOWER them to be of help. Forcing clients to have to pull their hair out in public to get attention is a bad idea :( Had paypal of HEARD me when I called in quietly and privately the whole "public problem" would have been avoided. Sadly it took YOU to get something accomplished (noting that to get your attention requires "public complaints"). Why should paypal pay someone to monitor public forums looking for "problems" when the "problems" are taking the time to call PayPal and let them know before it hits the forums?

So again -- To be clear --

PayPal should give damon a RAISE as he does try and I do respect what he is trying to accomplish as well as the time he spent working to resolve FutureQuest's problem... PayPal themselves however is crossed off our books and is not considered a valid form of moving funds. The company has a lot of restructuring to do to handle these situations better and a whole lot of "Customer Service" training courses to provide a number of their reps.

A lil respect goes a long way... the lack of respect goes just as far :(

Damon -- Thank you ... I only hope PayPal can view your actions as something to follow however I'm sure it will take quite a bit of time which is the risk I can no longer allow our company to take.

Thanks for the kind words regarding my actions.

However, please realize that I am in the forums to do the following:

a) get customer feedback
b) assist users with problems they are having
c) advise them of product changes

Believe me, I would prefer not to get into resolving every customer issue I come across. However, it is in the best interest of the company, as well as our users, to do bring closure to issues that do come up.

To put restrictions in perspective-
1. I run across about 5 in the forums on a bad day. In a general day, I handle approximately 17 forums, as well as 60-200 inbound/outbound emails daily. The bulk of these issues are not account restrictions. They are often general inquiries about the service and inquiries how to approach an issue with a merchant (or a buyer).
2. They are resolvable.
3. Users are not going to lose money because of an account restriction (a common fear).

Basically, I come to forums where our users are to make sure they are happy. Many users, sadly, come to forums when a negative issue arises...they never come out when things are going well. Based on your account, you had been active for quite some time without having an issue (chargebacks,scams,account restrictions,etc.) with the service at all. Most users don't have issues if they follow the USER AGREEMENT, do a little research on who they are buying from,etc.

So, again, my apologies for the error on our part. I just wanted to be sure that other readers know that all customer issues are resolvable, even if it takes a few days.

Your account has been un-restricted. I did advise you previously what caused the flags in our system. Two transactions have been reversed. What I have not been told is for sure whether those two transaction were in fact the problem or not?? I also need to know if the reversal went back to the client or to paypal? The client that made those two transactions is now using a credit card to make their payments..however I of course do not want to continue accepting credit card payments from them if they are involved in fraudulent activity. PayPal would not tell me why the two transactions were reversed. This forces the stinky stuff to roll down hill as tonight the client will be notified and their accounts put at risk... Can you provide the information? 3. Users are not going to lose money because of an account restriction (a common fear). How much do they pay you to work their damon? If an hour is spent on hold...how much have they lost? How much is lost when the CEO of a company spends many hours on the phone dealing with this issue? How much was lost when our tech support team has to explain why a refund was not applied to a paypal account as promised? What does this "restriction" do to the reputation of the company? How much is lost when this restriction takes "food out of a baby's mouth"? Does that sound extreme to you? It doesn't sound extreme to someone who may depend on their funds to be there. Many users, sadly, come to forums when a negative issue arises...they never come out when things are going well. This is the reality of doing business and one I wont argue with except to say --- I have personally brought PayPal an enormous amount of business over the years. I couldn't tell you the number of times I have sung your praises or the number of our own clients that have signed up for PayPal accounts because "FutureQuest Recommends Them".

News DOES travel fast both ways and it is for this reasons businesses need to make darn sure their Customer Service skills are A+. IF PayPal had service reps on the frontline that were able to work WITH ME in a respectable manor none of this hostility would have ever surfaced. If PayPal's service reps had known how to LISTEN as you do, or had the same ability as you appear to have things would have been fine. Hopefully PayPal will work extra hard at empowering their frontline service reps and untie their hands.

I received an email just a short bit ago from PayPal's Director of Business Development, Christopher Chen, with another apology concerning this situation and he stated: I do apologize for your frustrations with our fraud screening procedures.

As you already know we are still a young company and growing at a very fast
rate. We must walk a fine line between having a free flowing money transfer
system and making sure that security is robust enough to minimize fraud.
Rest assured, we are doing everything we can to make sure that you don't run
into problems like this in the future. It does take time to get these
improvements in place and I hope you understand and will be patient as we go
through some of our growing pains.

I hope that you give us another chance to prove to you that we are the best
online money transfer business out there. I do hope that PayPal does come through. They'll need to hire many more "Damon"s to accomplish it though.

Two people have apologized to me from PayPal... both of which became involved AFTER everything else failed. Neither of which had anything to do with this issue except for being the only ones able to solve the problem after it went 'public'. The PROPER channels provided by PayPal for me to follow did NOTHING to solve the problem. Had it not of been for Damon PayPal would still be waiting for even more documentation and the account would still be restricted :(

If I could make only ONE suggestion it would be to empower your frontline service reps to be able to handle these types of issues to avoid forcing the customer to have to go the 'wrong route' to get to the correct resolution. Accomplishing that will solve literally hundreds (?thousands?) of the complaints out there.

I've been told four times today "Now you have private channels to go through to solve these problems if they were to happen again" and my response to that remains the same. If you need "private channels" to receive the "proper service" from a company then the company does not meet my service requirements and it makes it impossible for me to recommend that company to others who would not have those "private channels".

I sincerely hope PayPal succeeds. The core of what they provide is NEEDED!!! An excellent service indeed!!! However, until that happens I really must continue with the closing of the account and I will not be able to recommend PayPal. Maybe in a couple of years after the "higher ups" realize this simple flaw and decide to fix it..things will shine bright for paypal. In the meantime the risk is higher than the convenience :(

Damon -- Once more -- $3,000 Thank Yous for your efforts. They DID help a great deal!

DEB,
Paypal this and paypal that. Paypal HAS to comply with the FED GOV. there is no if ands or butts about it :D

Damon who has ever been so kind to help you out with this does not need to hear your complaints aired out to every one about paypal.

I have been using paypal for at lest 5 years and in good standing, all though not for business reasons but I have had about 8,000 dollars go in/out from my account over the time I have had it with out any problems.

a suggestion would be to have your clients sign up using a CC then if they wish they could switch it over to a paypal account after say two months. That way you know that they will not have any problems with paypal sense you know they are truly who they say they are.

What the boss requests he gets and finding money laundering is one way to stop anything like 9-11 happening again.

Deb sorry if I seemed a bit upset but you got to relies we live in a brand new world sense the towers came down. And we as US citizens HAVE to do our part (even though I do agree it is time consuming troublesome and aggravating)
I will now step off the soap box :D

Paypal HAS to comply with the FED GOV. there is no if ands or butts about it Totally Agree!!! I just do not see where any of my complaints have anything to do with the Fed Gov's laws? Unless a law was written about poor service and the inability to find out why you are being charged with a 'crime'?

I wish Damon all the best...and again agree that his efforts were successful in resolving this most unfortunate situation.

Good Luck to PayPal ... hopefully things will smooth out for them once they are over this 'growth issue'. Until then however it's important for me to ensure our company doesn't share in the risks.

To each his own .. For us, this 'mistake' by PayPal gave me the knowledge of how things might happen if a 'real problem' were to exist. What we do with that knowledge is of course the choice each of us has to make on our own... does not need to hear your complaints aired out to every one about paypal. Sadly that was the only option provided for resolution. Which is one of the complaints to begin with ;)

So, what do we do when damon gets cut in the next RIF? Or promoted to a new position?

What would have happened here?

I still use Paypal but I don't let my balance stay large though (well my wife doesn't let it, damn Paypal debit card).

Well for Damon -- let's vote for promotion :D What would have happened here? In our case, PayPal was requiring us to provide even more documentation and stating that after it was provided they would begin the review again. If we did not provide more documentation then the account was to remain restricted while still accepting incoming funds without the ability for me to close the account or remove the funds or prevent new funds from entering the account. My best guess -- We were headed for trial.

This concerned me and when I asked what to do to prevent more people from submitting funds to the restricted account one of the reps said on the phone "just tell your clients not to". That is why we sent the mass email and made the announcement to our clients that we would no longer accept PayPal payments. It was, the 'best advise' PayPal could offer to me on the phone.

Remember it's not the amount of money you keep in the account _now_ it's the amount of money that may enter the account AFTER it is restricted. If you receive many payments into your PayPal account it will grow while restricted and there is no way for you to remove those funds....

From the email I received when our situation was resolved -- I wouldn't discount the fact that PayPal acknowledges it as a fairly new system that has been put into place on a large and growing company. "Glitches" will happen. Mistakes are to be expected and hopefully time and effort will fix most of those issues. For the "mistakes" and "glitches" that will continue to occur from time to time without prejudice... let's hope PayPal empowers more of their service reps to handle it, and until then, let's hope people who are not able to justify the risk make careful decisions about whether or not it will be ok to use PayPal

If they stole my money I would personally take care of them. I hate thieves.

About a year ago I started using paypal, and didnt have any troubles with it. 3 months ago, I made a couple payments for ebay via paypal. With no problem. (I have my bank account, and a credit card which are both set so my account is verified) I have 120 verified payed customers. Anyways, I logged in, just like a normal day, to see my account was restricted, and ALL.. NO, not 1, but ALL of my past transactions were reversed. Im a long time ebay user, and guess what? I had about 30 ebay customers who were pissed. And you know why? EVERY PAYMENT from every transfer I have ever made, was reversed, therefore sending all MY payments sent to the people for ebay things I had purchased back to me. Now Im still working on trying to get it worked out, seeing how I have about 50 people totaling about $12,000 in reversed payments to deal with. But guess what answer I get from paypal? Send us a copy of your bank/credit card statements with a valid copy of your drivers license. I sent them this info, and a month later, TO THIS DAY. My account is STILL Restricted..


DONT USE PAYPAL, There fraud systems SUCK, and there a bunch of money stealing ripoffs.

Try www.2checkout.com I heard they were a nice company.

Thanks,
Jayson H

paypaldamon:
Users are not going to lose money because of an account restriction (a common fear).


Yes they do lose money, specially, if they are not in U.S. or you are unreachable to U.S. laws. Example is HostSearch.com. A very reputable company which have thousands of doallrs with paypal recently there was a thread about this which you already know and the money is never released. (upto my knowledge)

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20259&perpage=20&pagenumber=4&postid=222879#post222879


paypaldamon:
Many users, sadly, come to forums when a negative issue arises...they never come out when things are going well.


Of course, When there is the problem people have rights to share there experiences with the company in question.


paypaldamon:
Most users don't have issues if they follow the USER AGREEMENT, do a little research on who they are buying from,etc.


If users have issues even if they are following the USER AGREEMENT and paypal restrict there accounts WITHOUT providing any reasons and blocking the outflow of funds and allowing inflow of funds, and asking for detailed documentation without giving any reason or what soever is not acceptable.


Mike:
Take your money and RUN! I have closed both my personal and by business PayPal account, and will advise as many as I can to do the same.


Hey Mike, Can you or paypaldemon guide me on how to close my account with paypal. I don't want my companies name in there database because some clients are still sending money through paypal.com account and forcing me to credit there account even I am denying there payments.

One of my client have already closed the account because he sent money through paypal and we denied it and he said it is been charged on his credit card account. It really took me 6 emails to explain him that we have not accepted payment and hence it will remain in your paypal account and you can spent it where ever you want to or withdraw it back to your banking account. :( Better we should have NO PAYPAL account. :o


osborne
Total Newbie

I can verify that what Paypal is doing with regard to keeping the incoming stream open on the account while closing the outgoing stream is what is required by the federal government when an account has been flagged for OFAC problems and probably it is the same with accounts flagged for money-laundering. Fraud detection requirements are also imposed by federal regulations and are usually enhanced by business policies.


If this is the case why not paypal send account holder the reason explaining why the account is restricted. It will be 100 times better, if paypal sends account holder sufficient reason and explanation why the account is restricted so that the account holder don't have to run around paypal to find out why the account is restricted and what did we do wrong !. For your information they don't bother to response emails. They only send automated reply requesting documentation and the loop continues even if they do mention on there web site to submit concerns regarding account restrictions.

Last time when paypal restricted my account I was having more then $2400 and at the time paypal demon some how got my account unrestricted. Also if they want to verify my identity they do have my credit card number (3 credit card numbers) and credit card companies are not FOOLS they issue credit cards without any verification and financial status of the person. Then for what purpose paypal needs license copies and credit card statements if they do have verified credit card number of the account holder (they do charged my every card with $1 with some kind of verification codes which appears in credit card statement) ? to verify that we are not money laundering or drug dealers !. :mad:

If, i have to run around paypal and beg them to unrestricted my account every 2-3 months better I don't use there services because I am in India and its very costly to call US. $2 / minute and i like every person i don't have time to run around them. also if i could have been on deb's position i must have lost $100's in just calling them.



bellyache:

If they stole my money I would personally take care of them. I hate thieves.


Friend, Please also tell me, on how to take out money in such situations, I will record it in my golden diary of experiences in bold letters, because my knowledge is very poor in such issues :D

Well, paypal.com is not thieves, it is just a very fast growing, reputable company, with 200 millions accounts facing growing pains, resolving users complains etc. etc.. :eek:

Once again: Thumbs up for the professionalism shown by paypaldemon. I wish I could have one paypal demon working in my company. :)

Deb is 100% right on with everything she has had to say about PayPal's handling of her situation.

I would like to thank her for sharing her experience becuase it has saved us potential problems in the future.

We were just about to add PayPal as a method of paying for our hosting services becuase certain potential customers seem to prefer this method. After reading Deb's horror story I am certainly not willing to have PayPal potentially make the same mistake with our money.

BTW Deb -- heard you on web hosting radio the other day -- it was an interesting listen.

This has been a very interesting discussion. I have been curious about PayPal for some time and have read good and bad things about them. Deb's experience is a real eye-opener. The amazing part being paypaldamon's admitting that it was an error on PayPal's part that her account was restricted. I wonder if there was any compensation paid to Deb for their 'error'? They can destroy your reputation and the lifeblood of your business then just say "Oops"? I don't care if PayPal is young and experiencing growing pains. They promise to provide a service and they must deliver...period. Anything short of that is fraud.

I admit that it is a different world today than it was a year ago. But why do we have to give up our freedoms in the name of protecting our safety. My Father fought in WW2 to protect the freedoms I have grown to enjoy. There is no way in hell I will let any government take those freedoms away so I can be "safe". I prefer freedom to safety. Part of living in a free society is that some will take advantage of the weak. To restrict the freedom and rights of everyone to try to stop the actions of a few is pure evil. If you wonder where this rant is going....why is PayPal being put in the role of a law enforcement agency in being required to enforce federal laws without due process? Any system that accepts that there will be innocent victims has serious problems and is not acceptable. Any lawmaker who allows such laws to become law should not receive the support of the citizens.

Sorry about getting off on this tangent but, I believe freedom is lost in small steps, not major coups. Having a government require that a legitimate business play Big Brother is another step down the wrong path.

I'm done:stickout

To the PayPal Rep:

I've been out of town and just now read the entire paypal thread upon the email sent directly to me from Deb at FutureQuest, because I am one of her customers.

I can totally attest and empathize with Deb's frustrations over absolutely piss poor customer service. Just a few days ago I spent THREE hours on HOLD with Yahoo in an attempt to find out why my two PAID accounts (that I use for business) were bouncing messages saying my account was out of service. I never got an answer why.

Do I have better things to do than waste my time with that kind of crappy service? You bet. I manage several web sites, from national trade organizations to performers, not to mention my activities suing spammers (www.AboutSpam.com).

What PayPal apparently doesn't get is that
1) cash flow is important to a company
2) time spent dealing with piss poor customer service reps steals time from other activities, like doing things for paying customers such as myself
3) freezing the account so the account holder cannot get the money while continuing to accept money is sleazy, because PayPal gets the use of the money and the account holder gets screwed by not getting the money for services, and gets a bad reputation from existing or new customers.
4) If all PayPal can offer is an apology after the huge hassle that was not Deb's fault, then PayPal needs some serious counseling in customer service and appeasement. At the >minimum<, PayPal should pay Deb interest on the money while it was frozen.

One comment in particular Deb made was about getting something like a private or more direct channel to resolve problems. If indeed such was offered or suggested to Deb, it truly reflects PayPals piss poor service.

A customer in good standing should NEVER have to go through that kind of crap as a way to EARN a private or more direct channel to problem solving. What this says about PayPal is that problem solving is a minor issue because Deb is just one of 10 million users. What's one user of 10 million, right? Expendable.

But to Deb her business is the issue. If PayPal can't comprehend this, then PayPal mangement has a serious brain problem. (I speak not only as a consumer, but also as someone who has written many articles on management for the American Management Association International and interviewd scores of VPs for articles on management. These VPs take customer service seriously).

Our organization has been very happy with FutureQuest, and I can tell you that I don't take Deb's comments lightly -- in part because her experience affects directly or indirectly the service she and her company can provide to us.

When the organizations I consult with bring up PayPal as a payment option, I will kill it, because I have the authority to kill it. I could not in good conscience recommend PayPal to a company as a Payment option until I see evidence that PayPal has its act together.

--
Bruce Miller

Thank you for your comments.

Deb's situation is actually quite rare. I also made it a point to take ownership of her case. Mistakes can happen in any customer service organization ( I have worked in a variety of cs organizations over the past ten years, so I do know that mistakes do happen with every company).

I certainly appreciate the frustration that Deb had getting her issue resolved through customer service. However, part of PayPal's overall committment to customer service can be seen in the fact that I am out here proactively looking for customer issues that have not been resolved/handled properly.

I try to put things in perspective to users that use the forums for information.

-PayPal has a user base reported at over 15 million
-Account restrictions are rare (reasons for an account restriction can be found in the User Agreement). To calculate how rare they actually are, divide the number of complaints by the user base.
-PayPal has been reported at handling well over 100,000 transaction daily
-PayPal has been reported at adding well over 10,000 accounts daily.
- In the past 1 year or so that I have been working in these forums, I can think of two restrictions that were mistakes (actually 3). I resolved all of these as quickly as possible

-A poster may not be releasing the details about why their account was restricted, nor can I always discuss the reasons for the restriction (this is not directed at Deb, but just a general advisement). I've run into numberous posts where the user has done "nothing" wrong, but research shows they have multiple accounts, have accessed the service from a country we do not support, have multiple complaints by their buyers, have utilized someone else's information,etc. Despite the issues shown above as examples, we can generally resolve these.

-Have you, as a company, ever had a customer issue that was not handled properly?
-All restrictions CAN be resolved with the assistance of the user.


I do take customer service very seriously. I also take the user feedback on our service very seriously. Deb's issues are not indicative of the overall service our customer service center provides on a daily basis (in many cases, as osborne's post discussed "KYC" (know your customer), the representatives hands are tied until the documentation is presented).

PayPal does employ very strong anti-fraud measures that DO catch legitimate users at times. These anti-fraud measures have allowed PayPal to reduce online fraud (online fraud rates are reported at over 1.00%, whereas ours has been reported at about half of that), which helps reduce the risk of chargebacks to our merchants receiving payments through the service. We have to combine convenience with security, which isn't as easy as it sounds.

We are young, just starting in fact and we were thinking of opening a paypal account to accept funds but a friend showed me this post and we no longer thinking of this as a viable option.

We have heard 2checkout.com is good, anyone have comments on this or another service able to process cc and electronic checks?

Thank you

Originally posted by paypaldamon
I am sorry to hear of the issues you have had. However, it is really hard for me to advise you on why the account was restricted without the account information.

It does appear that there may be some question about the integrity of the funds coming in. As a precaution to protect our user base ,the account was restricted. The restriction can be resolved with the requested documentation.

Our User Agreement does state the reasons an account can be restricted. We do have some aggressive anti-fraud measures in place that do catch legitimate users at times, so I do apologize for any inconvenience you have had. I also apologize if you have had any issues going through customer service (however, they do have a hard time going forward without the requested documentation being presented).

As it relates to the refund to your client, that is an issue I can work with our account management team (it would require your permission to refund the user).

Please feel free to contact me, as I would like to see closure on your case.


What if someone doesn't have a fax machine?
What if they can't get to the mail to mail you the information?
What if they don't feel safe with sending you their credit card statement?
How come you guys nab the good guys but let the bad guys run rampant?

You guys are an e-commerce version of AOL if you realize it or not. I suggest you talk to your superiors to try and come up with more secure measures in handling cases. You guys have treated me well and lets hope you continue to do so....otherwise....woops my lawyer is at the door...

PayPal does not operate in a face-to-face environment, which is why we have to ask for documentation when a security flag is raised. Many places (Mailboxes Etc. ) offer fax/postal services if you are looking for a way to send the documentation.

Our anti-fraud measures, as well as our low fraud rates, have been reported in many articles (Newsweek,etc.). The last report of fraud rates showed ours at more than half of online fraud rates.

As an example, if a customer has an issue with suspicious bank account activity, the information we request is no different than when you write a check. The same information you provide us with is at the bottom of every check you write (bank account number, routing transit number, etc.).

I realize that an account restriction can be inconvenient when it happens to a user. However, it is an issue that is entirely resolvable. Doing business through the internet is a little different than operating in a face-to-face environment.

like i posted somewhere else or maybe on here, check out paypalwarning.com

A customer of ours did an analysis of the site. They found out of the 162 complaints, they could attribute possibly three directly to PayPal being in the wrong.

Many of the issues you find on the site:

a) chargebacks-PayPal operates no differently than other merchant service providers in this arena.
b) seller did not send product-this is an issue between the buyer and seller. We have a complaint process for this, but it isn't always going to net recovery for the buyer.
c) account restrictions-Yes, these do happen. However, many people that make a complaint in a public forum do not come back to state if it has been resolved. In addition, many users do not state the reason for the restriction. A pretty complete list of reasons can be found in our User Agreement regarding restrictions.

PayPal has a Satisfactory rating with the BBB, which would not happen if we didn't address customer issues.

c) account restrictions-Yes, these do happen. However, many people that make a complaint in a public forum do not come back to state if it has been resolved. In addition, many users do not state the reason for the restriction. A pretty complete list of reasons can be found in our User Agreement regarding restrictions. I'm still missing $158 and I have not been given a reason as to why. Would the reason why be "the complete list of reasons in the UA"? I was told the restriction was in error..but then that leaves me with a really sour reason as to why that error cost our company $158.

Possibly many of these folks would like to know exactly WHICH REASON?

I am not able to state my issue was resolved completely because the answer to that one question and those $158 are still missing. What I can say, and have, is that you did get our account unrestricted so that we could withdraw what money was released and close the account. a) chargebacks-PayPal operates no differently than other merchant service providers in this arena. Note: When a chargeback occurs with our merchant account, the bank takes the amount of the chargeback but has never held all of our funds that were unrelated to the single chargeback.

Just food for thought... even though I'm only one tiny company compared to the millions of others that use PayPal. A statement I wouldn't make to any of my clients -- "Sorry we blew it, but you're just one person so there is no need for us to concern ourselves with this issue"

They must think someone is stupid to actually send them a credit card statement.