How to get out from SPEWS.ORG?! [Archive]

nmihosting

04-20-2002, 07:37 AM

<rant>
I hate spam - as do we all. But, you have to wonder about those who have been described as 'anti-spam zealots' here - I preferr the term 'anti-spam nazi's'. Why do the feel the need to abuse hosts the way they do? Why have they made it their life's only goal to make what can only be described as nuisances of themselves (abusive nuisances at that). They really need to get out more, or pour their obviously relentless energy into a worthier cause like saw saving the rainforests.

We had an incident last year were our servers where used for spam - unfortunately we had open relay's and were not able to close them. Our servers where running the Sphera system, which creates every hosting plan as a virtual dedicated server. In their infinite stupidity Sphera had made every VDS an open relay - and because their software made it impossible to reconfigure sendmail, there was nothing we could do about it. Well except dump Sphera and move to Ensim, which we did very quickly.

But in the time that it took for the spammers to discover our open relays (which happend in a matter of only a few weeks of us moving to the Sphera based solution) , and us to reolve the issue - we received so much abuse for these anti-spam nazi's it was actually emotionally distressing, even for a tough skinned business women like me. For people who profess to be anti-spam, they were certainly happy to send unsolicited (and unpleasant) email to us regarding the open relay issue. It did not matter that we explained the situation to each and every one of them, advising that we were working as fast as we could to resolve the issue. The abuse just kept coming.

I fully support responsible RBL services, (of which SPEWS is NOT one), and we actively use SpamCop - but what is the deal with these newsgroup people. I stupidly thought that as they were so opposed to spam that they might actually have some advise on how to resolve our issue ...but no, they just want to bash. Guilty until proven innocent seems to be their motto (and then still guilty even after being proved innocent in most cases).

Sure it was unwise for us to have chosen a solution like Sphera without knowing of the open relaying issue - but hey, who would have thought Sphera would be so stupid. We were genuinely upset that people used our servers for spam, it sucked that people received spam because of an issue with our servers. We fixed the issue as quickly as we could, but we were still 'scum' in the eyes of these people.

Anyway - that's my rant on this whole spam thing. I really pity those who where assigned our IP's after we dumped them, they are probably still in a big black hole created by SPEWS.
</rant>

nox

04-23-2002, 01:06 AM

I share the common sentiment here, and have also battled the spam nazis at nanae/SPEWS.. but I think other than this being a case of dressing in virtual leather for some of the poor dears without a cause of any worth, that there could be some degree of 'razed earth' policy here..

I believe some of them think that by creating such a nuisance level with the blocking lists that eventually ISP's and related netizens will come up with a general solution to better control SPAM... hence the arrogance and lack of appeal.. it's designed to piss us off..

Also, as much as they provide solutions in some of their more helpful moods, most are just not realistic for small to medium hosting companies and ISP's to enforce while still allowing clients some freedom..

As much as it hurts to deal with the SPEWS group, I think Roberts 'path of least resistance' is the better commercial choice where the potential for large number of clients to suffer from confrontation is a possibility.. but I also think that the greater community of web hosts is in a better position to offer spam management criteria than some geeks, deviants, students and others who are removed from the public way..

Spam is a pest and seems to be on the increase [from the volume I get now] so I hope consensus/compromise is eventually possible.

For those who haven't seen it, here is a humorous view of the issue..

http://lumbercartel.freeyellow.com/

UmBillyCord

04-23-2002, 01:51 AM

SPEWS - They will get what is coming to them. Ask ORBZ. Funny things is, ORBZ was easy to work with. Unlike they a**holes at SPEWS.

but I also think that the greater community of web hosts is in a better position to offer spam management criteria than some geeks, deviants, students and others who are removed from the public way..

Sums it up.

lazygun

04-23-2002, 02:14 PM

Okay, here's my problem.
I'm one of the semi-regular readers at NANAE. Some of you would probably refer to me as an "anti-spam nazi" as I do make complaints.

My problem with spam is that because I live in Ireland I pay for every minute online. So every piece of spam costs me cold hard cash each time my phone bill comes in.

I've also had to abandon about five yahoo accts because of a spam overflow.

Now, I've been down the "click here to be removed" road, and I'm pissed off seeing the "This cannot be considered spam because you signed up somewhere unspecified" and "This is not spam because it complies with a non-existant US law, that you being in Europe should respect". And I see no reason why I should treat these blatant lies and fake excuses with anything other than contempt.

I agree that SPEWS needs work and that it's shotgun effect may be overzealous in most cases (but not all). But on the whole, as an end user, it does actually reduce the amount of absolute crap I get in my inbox.

I don't know if any actual spammers are reading this, but for fsck sake, if I say "Please don't mail me", why do you insist that I have second, third, fourth helpings and more?

SPEWS is the reason I no longer get multiple daily spams from globalinternic/namesforeveryone/infinet.net
http://www.spews.org/html/S327.html
And yes, I am the same Lazygun.

Sorry lads and lassies - it works, and until I can say "Please don't send me advertising I don't want" and you stop, I'll continue to say it has a place.

Why should I pay for your advertising?

I would actually appreciate answers if any "spammers" are reading. No ads tho.

clswht

04-23-2002, 02:58 PM

If you're in SPEWS, it's because you're in an address range whose admins don't respond adequately to spam complaints. It's not about attitude. It's not censorship. It's not discrimination.

The fact is your dispute is not with SPEWS
nor with SPEWS' subscribers.
Your dispute is with your upstream.
They are selling you damaged goods.
Perhaps they are just incompetent.
Perhaps you're getting a really good price because they aren't spending money on abuse staff or they're charging "bullet proof" rates to some of their other customers.
Relax. Understand it. Accept it. *Then* you can decide how to handle it.

You have choices.
1. You can just live with it. Some businesses don't need full SMTP connectivity.
2. You can move.
3. You can help your upstream figure out why they are in SPEWS. Maybe they don't realize they are supposed to have an abuse mailbox and terminate spamer accounts.
4. You can rent an SMTP server in untainted IP space, and relay through it.
Document your costs carefully, and sue your IP provider for it. They are not providing full Internet connectivity to you because they do not have it themselves. They are paying for transit, but nobody can buy full SMTP connectivity. You *EARN* full connectivity by responding to spam complaints.

nmihosting

04-23-2002, 03:14 PM

:puke:
Originally posted by clswht
but nobody can buy full SMTP connectivity. You *EARN* full connectivity by responding to spam complaints.

You earn SMTP Connectivity! Puking is about the only response I can muster to this statement - well except to say that I would like to know to whom we are supposed to grovel for this 'privilege'.

clswht

04-23-2002, 03:21 PM

My servers reject SMTP contact from addresses in the SPEWS list.

My users know it. They love it. SPEWS works.

Every few months one of my users or one of their subscribers will discover their ISP is listed, and I "whitelist" them while they work out the problem with their ISP. I think that is how SPEWS is supposed to be used.

What usually happens is there are lots of other problems with their ISP, and the SPEWS listing is the hint they need to start shopping for a more competent ISP.

That is because you do NOT get in SPEWS by having a spammer. Everybody gets spammers. You get in SPEWS by IGNORING COMPLAINTS. If you are in SPEWS and you never had a spammer, it is because your upstream IGNORES COMPLAINTS. If you forward complaints to your spamming customer for list washing, that is considered IGNORING COMPLAINTS.

So the key is simply to have a working abuse address and make sure your upstream has a working abuse address. That means treating EVERY COMPLAINT as if it might be from a SPEWS administrator. Don't tell people to "remove" themselves from the spammer's list, or that they might have "forgotten they subscribed." If they're smart enough to show you complete headers, they know what lists they subscribe to. Remember spam complainers are DOING YOU A FAVOR. Treat them with respect. Follow this advice and you will never be in SPEWS.

devnull

04-23-2002, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by DanielP
Anatole, the only way to even halfway attempt to get removed from spews is to post to their news group, which then you'll get emailed and harassed by a bunch of antispam vigilanties and you maybe have a 15% chance of getting removed. other than that, change the IP of your mail server :-/

Damn, you're dense. The SPEWS list neither owns nor operates the news.admin.net-abuse.email newsgroup - nobody does.

Are you the same 'Dan' who was posting all sorts of threats and garbage on nanae? I'm no 'antispam zealot' but your posts led me to the conclusion that you were a raving loon, an imbecile or a hardcore spammer who got their peepee whacked - and that was the first day I'd even ever read the newsgroup.

I'm not SPEWS. I don't know who SPEWS is/are, but if they're able to reduce or eliminate the amount of crap dumping into people's mailboxes every day, then more power to 'em. I'm tired of tweaking my procmail every other day because some a-whole decided I really wanna read about "hot teen sluts" or "viagra online" or "make millions fast". F 'em - they're stealing my valuable time.

TMX

04-23-2002, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by nmihosting
:puke:

So, does this mean that anyone who was receiving spam sent through your (one time) open relay farm should have just shut up and happily accepted it? I'm sorry, but where I come from, things just don't work that way. Regardless of whether it was your fault or sphera's, the bottom line was still the same.

As a side note, anyone who thinks that the psycho faction of nanae has any control over anything is completely missing the boat.

-Bob

nmihosting

04-23-2002, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by TMX

So, does this mean that anyone who was receiving spam sent through your (one time) open relay farm should have just shut up and happily accepted it? I'm sorry, but where I come from, things just don't work that way. Regardless of whether it was your fault or sphera's, the bottom line was still the same.
-Bob

Hi Bob,

No. The icon was directed at the comment that you somehow had to earn the right to send email. Also, I think you will notice in my original post that I commented on how we were extremely upset for the people who recieved email via our servers for the few weeks that this issue occurred. We certainly do not condone spam. The incident that I mentioned lasted only a few weeks until we resolved it - but in that time the amount of what I can only descirbe as hate email that we received was unbelievable. This is mainly what my post was about because I think that this type of behavior is unnessicary.

p920037

04-23-2002, 05:26 PM

I love the sound of spanked spammers! Thanks SPEWS!

allera

04-23-2002, 06:16 PM

I normally don't get mad at a lot of things, but:

SPEWS is full of crap. They don't care if you are listed -- your IP or block is branded as "spam-friendly" and they ignore you. I shouldn't have to beg someone to remove any of our IPs from their list. SPEWS is the only "list" we have had any problems with. Any complaints (which are extremely rare -- maybe 3 or 4 in the last 12 months) have been dealt with within the hour of notification and the other lists have been great about it. What is SPEWS' stance? "We'll ban your IP and if you have a problem with it, talk to us in the newsgroups or public forums -- SPEWS is 100% automated and receives no emails. Sorry, better luck next time. Oh, and if you're a spammer, which you know you are because we banned your IP, find another job." Their FAQs make it seem like it is run by a group of 'holier than thou' kids with total lack of professionalism.

I have received a total of one complaint from a customer about our server being listed on SPEWS. I told them that I was sorry but I will not deal with SPEWS on any level until they get their act straight and to use another SMTP server to send that email. I gather from the good amount of traffic our mail server does that SPEWS isn't a widely used list -- with good reason.

I feel sorry for those filtering with SPEWS. They may be filtering spam, but they are filtering many more legitimate emails from legitimate hosts who strongly oppose spam like many hosts posting in this thread.

p920037

04-23-2002, 07:10 PM

Don't feel sorry for us. It blocks your spam!

Last month SPEWS was responsible for blocking over 300 messages at our company. Not one of them was a piece of legitimate email.

uwiz

04-23-2002, 07:14 PM

Originally posted by nmihosting

Hi Bob,

No. The icon was directed at the comment that you somehow had to earn the right to send email.

It's not so much that one has to earn it, but that you (in particular) have to earn it BACK.

nmihosting

04-23-2002, 07:47 PM

Originally posted by uwiz

It's not so much that one has to earn it, but that you (in particular) have to earn it BACK.

uwiz - me in particular? My servers are not listed on an RBL. IMHO you should make sure you understand the facts before you post a comment.

uwiz

04-23-2002, 08:54 PM

You may not be in any major RBLs at the moment - but how many private, smaller blocklists did your getting exploited land you in, that you may never know about?

Those are harder to get out of.

In any case, unless you've changed IPs along with your primary software, rest assured that the previous spam runs through your servers will be remembered, and that people will be quick to protect against them if another exploit is found and they happen again. It's a 'once burned, twice shy' thing now, and that's hard to get past.

That trust is what you'll have to earn back. The RBLs are just the most concrete manifestation of its loss.

nmihosting

04-23-2002, 09:24 PM

Originally posted by uwiz
You may not be in any major RBLs at the moment - but how many private, smaller blocklists did your getting exploited land you in, that you may never know about?

Those are harder to get out of.

In any case, unless you've changed IPs along with your primary software, rest assured that the previous spam runs through your servers will be remembered, and that people will be quick to protect against them if another exploit is found and they happen again. It's a 'once burned, twice shy' thing now, and that's hard to get past.

That trust is what you'll have to earn back. The RBLs are just the most concrete manifestation of its loss.

uwiz, I resent your implication that I or my company is untrustworthy. This is exactly the kind of attitude I and others here have been pointing out. My company does not send spam and we do not willingly facilitate the sending of spam or condone it- and besides an isolated issue 12 months ago we have not had any problems with spam on our servers (an incident which you are only aware of because I mentioned it here at this forum). Suggesting that this incident makes my company untrustworthy is very narrow minded of you to say the least. We are a responsible and trustworthy organization and your comments to the contray are completely unnessicary.

Again I take everyone's attention back to my original post where I pointed out that even mentioning that you have experienced a spamming issue in a public forum brings out rude anti-spam zealots that only seem to exist to bash. uwiz has proven my point.

nox

04-23-2002, 09:53 PM

Originally posted by clswht
If you're in SPEWS, it's because you're in an address range whose admins don't respond adequately to spam complaints. It's not about attitude. It's not censorship. It's not discrimination.

This is absolute nonsense, and only serves to demonstrate *again* how little the people who support SPEWS understand the internet.

Whether you come back with some smug/pathetic accusation that I am a 'loon' or 'imbecile' or 'spamhaven' etc etc you are wrong!!

We have been included in SPEWS list and we react to SPAM complaints within a few hours of receiving them *without fail*

There were two instances ever, when we took a few days to respond because we didn't check a mailbox that was used for abuse notices.. this was an innocent mistake and was rectified immediately and will not knowingly recur.

We employ as many practical anti spam measures as will continue to allow us to provide an acceptable level of service to the buying and NON SPAMMING public..

We are just as seriously inconvenienced by SPAM as anyone else and we don't need to make money by secretly selling accounts to SPAMMERS, as most of you commercially challenged, small minded freaks believe.

So.. it's about;

Ignorance
Attitude
Limited but misdirected censorship

The fact is your dispute is not with SPEWS
nor with SPEWS' subscribers.
Your dispute is with your upstream.
They are selling you damaged goods.
Perhaps they are just incompetent.
Perhaps you're getting a really good price because they aren't spending money on abuse staff or they're charging "bullet proof" rates to some of their other customers.

The issue is that SPEWS, above most, can affect a wider range of circumstances than it downplays it is capable of.. delivering biased inaccurate information deserves to be exposed as much as those who continue to abuse the system by spamming..

The 'dispute' is with people who are supportive of the extreme and abusive antics of the SPEWS club..

Your comprehension of the structure of web hosting from the end user to the data centre to the carrier is flawed.

There is some truth in your comment that many smaller web hosts are lacking in the skills to adequately protect from and manage spammers, but the majority of the hosts here, who have been around for a while, are extremely competent.

They/we/us would be happy to work with any reasonable group, which has happened with most of the other serious ANTI SPAM organisations, to eliminate the bulk of the problem.

Relax. Understand it. Accept it. *Then* you can decide how to handle it.

You have choices.
1. You can just live with it. Some businesses don't need full SMTP connectivity.
2. You can move.
3. You can help your upstream figure out why they are in SPEWS. Maybe they don't realize they are supposed to have an abuse mailbox and terminate spamer accounts.
4. You can rent an SMTP server in untainted IP space, and relay through it.
Document your costs carefully, and sue your IP provider for it. They are not providing full Internet connectivity to you because they do not have it themselves. They are paying for transit, but nobody can buy full SMTP connectivity. You *EARN* full connectivity by responding to spam complaints.

You people are delusional... from whom do we EARN this gracious concession..?? certainly not the bulk of the internet using public, who are our first priority..

There is no question that you have every right to choose what mail you receive, there is no question that the sending of garbage email is a costly problem, there is no question that the majority of serious web hosts are responsible in this area and respect the rights of others, there is no question that the web hosts here spend time and money fighting the problem of spam on a daily basis [mixed with the other forms of abuse and fraud that come with this industry] BUT there is a serious question whether you apparently intelligent people have the right to create grief and angst by your illinformed, selfish, violent and generally abusive methods..

Why you don't want to work with the people most likely to help control the problem raises a serious question as to your motivations and veracity, which is why these arguments break out..

Working together would be much nicer and probably more effective...

nox

04-23-2002, 10:20 PM

Originally posted by p920037
Don't feel sorry for us. It blocks your spam!

Last month SPEWS was responsible for blocking over 300 messages at our company. Not one of them was a piece of legitimate email.

This fascinates me.. you counted over 300 emails and someone read them to determine that they were spam..

So you must have a big company to have a human filtering the emails that SPEWS dictates come from naughty people/IP's..

so why, other than to be part of *something big*, do you need to support SPEWS ?? I'm sure the person who is reading the email or the headers to count the legitimate and illegitimate messages could do so without flying the flag for SPEWS and making/endorsing enlightening comments like "I love the sound of spanked spammers".. and support a bunch of wankers who get off seeing their name in type.. or are you a troll or maybe a bull****ter ?

WizyWyg

04-23-2002, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by felix220

This is absolute nonsense, and only serves to demonstrate *again* how little the people who support SPEWS understand the internet.

And overly broad statement to be saying. We dont understand the internet just because we support a system that works? Honestly, how can anyone come up with such an assanine conclusion?

Spews lists ip blocks or domains that have not acted upon in a timely manner to spam complaints. Timely means that if a complain is sent in, within days there should be confirmation by said ISP/Domain/Abuse Department to take care of that situation, and not ignore complaints altogether. Why do you think large portions of Verio, Qwest, ATT, Sprint, and many others have large portions of their blocks list in Spews. Why? Because its been shown time and again, that these hosts rather live off of their pink contracts with known spammers, or shuffle around known spammers in their IP blocks to avoid them being blocked. So what can RBL list do? List the whole damn block in Spews or their lists until they clean up their act.

What many are forgetting is that SPEWS is a private list that is maintained by a someone who with spamtrap email addresses collect "spam" for reporting as well as seeing who and what companies reply or respond to a complaint in a timely manner. If the complaints go unnoticed or ignored, Spews puts that offending IP in a block list. IF spam continues from the same source or its shown that the webhost/isp only moved the spammer from one block to another to avoid these lists, then SPEWS puts a RANGE of ip's into that list until the isp/webhosts takes care of that spammer (ie, total and outright disconnection). SPEWS makes their list public, BUT NO ONE is forced to use it. Just that SPEWS has a VERY Good list and provides reasons why those blocks were made.

Remember, YOU do not own the space that your mail is going to, and the owner of that webspace doesn't have to accept any traffic from your space on the web. If I wanted to , I could block out the entire country of England from my server and I dont have to list a reason as to why.

YOU do not END up in spews only after being complained about once. YOU end up in spews because you or your webhost continues to ignore spam complaints, or do not act upon them in a timely manner. The only time someone starts complaining about spews is that they've been listed there after SEVERAL complaints, that have gone unanswered.

Again, your "gripes" is not with SPEWS. Its with the webhost/isp or YOU yourself for not following up on abuse reports in a timely manner.

If you webhost likes spammers in favor of legitimate business, I suggest finding a webhost that will actually be in favor of those who do things legitimately. If you are with a webhost who provides pink contracts for spammers, you are in essense supporting SPAMMERS. Your money goes to keeping these spammers connected.

Whether you come back with some smug/pathetic accusation that I am a 'loon' or 'imbecile' or 'spamhaven' etc etc you are wrong!!

We get enough of that in NANAE.

You may be in spews not because of you but your upstream provider may not act on spews or abuse complaints. You need to check all spews records in order to see if ITS you, or your upstream provider who is preventing you from getting out of spews.

If its shown that your upstream is a spam supporter, its time to take it up with your upstream or pack up and move to another provider. If you pay them for connnectivity, and they aren't giving it to you, you need to address this problem with them. SPEWS has nothing to do with that.

[b]There were two instances ever, when we took a few days to respond because we didn't check a mailbox that was used for abuse notices.. this was an innocent mistake and was rectified immediately and will not knowingly recur.

Then thats your problem. Why are you blaming those who use SPEWS or their own private black lists because you didn't bother to check a mail box that is DEDICATED to monitor or received abuse complaints?

Because of this error, you were listed in SPEWS. You took too long too act on valid complaints or complaints filled up your un-attended abuse mailbox, and that is a sign of an ISP/Webhost who ignores complaints or doesn't have the manpower to handle the complaints. We do not have psychic powers to know that "oh you forgot to check the mail box" All we know is that those who complained did not get an answer in a timely fashion and that is to them a sign of "spam support". Then they take their complaints to your upstream provider or .. you end up in SPEWS and other blacklists.

You will be removed from spews once its shown you act on spam complaints in a timely manor. Its automatic, but no one will tell you when. YOU just have to wait it out.

We employ as many practical anti spam measures as will continue to allow us to provide an acceptable level of service to the buying and NON SPAMMING public..

GOOD. Does your upstream provider also provide this as well? If your upstream provider is a spam supporter, antyhing that you do on your network while under them is still hampered by their non-compliance.

We are just as seriously inconvenienced by SPAM as anyone else and we don't need to make money by secretly selling accounts to SPAMMERS, as most of you commercially challenged, small minded freaks believe.

Good. Does your upstream provider think this way as well. If your upstream provider is a spam supporter, anything that you do on your network while under them is still hampered by their non-compliance.

So.. it's about;

Ignorance
Attitude
Limited but misdirected censorship

No,

Its about:

My server.
MY rules.
Dont like it, you can stay in spews till your business goes under.
Censorship doesn't work on the internet. Internert is not run by any government. Its a private system of different isps who agree to give connection to each other. They also have the right to refuse connection or accept "crap" from those who wish to only exist to abuse.

MY Server.
MY RULES
Dont like it, sit in spews till you rot.

The issue is that SPEWS, above most, can affect a wider range of circumstances than it downplays it is capable of.. delivering biased inaccurate information deserves to be exposed as much as those who continue to abuse the system by spamming..

What's inacurate about the way SPEWS handles the listings. If your network was the source of spam, provided and email address that was advertised in spam, was a dropbox designated in a spam, is hosting a web address that was advertised in spam, and that spam was delivered to one of spews MANY spam trap addresses, they have every reason to list you.

Again, you dont get listed in spews for only one offense. It takes many circumstances for anyone to get listed in spews. BY YOUR own admittance, you "forgot" to check the email box where your abuse complaints go. If one of those complaints came from someone at spews (you wouldn't know anyway), and they didn't a get a "confirmation" that you were working on the problem, they list you and your network in their list with their reason (ie Does not respond to complaints).

The 'dispute' is with people who are supportive of the extreme and abusive antics of the SPEWS club..

ITS very obvious that you do not know or understand what SPEWS is.
http://www.spews.org
READ
GET A CLUE.

For a summary of those who only go by hearsay:
SPEWS is a list; a private list; a VERY GOOD list of networks, ip blocks that have shown that they ignore complaints or do not act upon spammers who are hosted at different networks or ip ranges.

THIS LIST is provided to the public, in case Jane Doe wishes to use this same list for her own network, to regulate the incoming of email to her network. If Jane Doe wishes to use this list, its her choice to do so. SPEWS does not force anyone to use their list.

You will get out of spews once you've shown that you act on complaints (future complaints) in a timely manner, or that one of their spamtrap addresses no longer receives email from your network.

Your comprehension of the structure of web hosting from the end user to the data centre to the carrier is flawed.

Oh?
Company A has user a b and c
Company B has user d e and f

Company A's user B spams company B's users d e and f
Users d e and f complain to Company a about user B's spams

Company a ignore's complaints.

User d e and f complain to company b that Company A is a spam supporter

On advice of user d e and f and looking for more evidence of Company A's non-compliance, Company B finds Company A on Spews. Company B then blocks traffic from Company A because Company A supports spammers.

I think that pretty much summarizes why the net works the way it does. Remember, company B doesn't have to accept traffic from anyone. Company B could decide that the only traffic it wants to accept is from Company C. So Companies D - Z will never have their traffic accepted by Company B.

Again, their servers, their rules.

------- continued in next post ---------------

WizyWyg

04-23-2002, 11:03 PM

There is some truth in your comment that many smaller web hosts are lacking in the skills to adequately protect from and manage spammers, but the majority of the hosts here, who have been around for a while, are extremely competent.

ATT, UU NET, Qwest, VO, PSI, BTI, PSI, SPRINT, Sprint Link, Rack Space, Interland....

These are some of the more well known providers on the net, and they are all listed in SPEWS, with whole ip blocks, or certain ip's. So what does that say about your comment above? So are you saying that these "bigger" companies dont have the manpower as well?

Or maybe we are just tired of dealing with their non-compliant crap, and pink contracts with spammers, that its just better to list the whole damn block and we dont have to concern ourselves with them. We could care less if there are "legitimate" blocks of domains a businesses in their space, but again, one bad apple spoils the bunch.

They/we/us would be happy to work with any reasonable group, which has happened with most of the other serious ANTI SPAM organisations, to eliminate the bulk of the problem.

Well, to work with us, is to not ignore our complaints. Again, all they respond to is $$$$$$$$$$ Spammer give them that. Those legitimate business who wish to do business with these isp's/ webhosts also mean they are supporting them and supporting spammers. If you want to fix it, threaten them with the notion that you will take your $$$$$$$$$$ elsewhere, and they will see that spamemrs really dont make them enough money to keep them.

Instead of complaining about a system that is shown to work, why aren't you making sure that your own systems and that your upstream provider has clean slates?

You people are delusional... from whom do we EARN this gracious concession..?? certainly not the bulk of the internet using public, who are our first priority..

WE aren't delusional, and to think you call us this? Hm.. great customer service. Calling your "future" customers who hate spam as much as the next guy delusional.

We are just tired of receiving crap and isp's that do nothing about the spammers on their networks. We are tired of getting 50 emails a day, and not one is a legitimate email from a friend, relative, or family member. Spam wastes our time and money.

There is no question that you have every right to choose what mail you receive, there is no question that the sending of garbage email is a costly problem, there is no question that the majority of serious web hosts are responsible in this area and respect the rights of others, there is no question that the web hosts here spend time and money fighting the problem of spam on a daily basis [mixed with the other forms of abuse and fraud that come with this industry] BUT there is a serious question whether you apparently intelligent people have the right to create grief and angst by your illinformed, selfish, violent and generally abusive methods..

When spammers send out 1,000,000 emails about Penis enlargments or breast augmentation to children because they got their email addresses of a millions cd, or doing an ordinary dictionary attack, I say that is abusive the end receiver. I dont appreciate opening up my email at work and find that 10 emails are to adult websites that I never have heard of or visited. I've had to ask to change my email at work 5 times because of deluge of spammers. Not only does it hurt me, but it costs my company money; to make up new business cards with my new email and letterheads as well. Spam is wasteful.

Why you don't want to work with the people most likely to help control the problem raises a serious question as to your motivations and veracity, which is why these arguments break out..

instead of asking why we dont want to work with admins who have shown to ignore us, why dont you ask yourself why are you complaining because you were listed in spews.

You were listed, get over it. You will be removed once they feel that you are no longer a threat to the net.

Working together would be much nicer and probably more effective...

Tried many times and failed. Seems that you haven't been around long have you. All we get is cartooney threats; our complaints go to the SPAMMERS themselves, or we are ignored. Its like the boy who cried wolf.

Hillbilly

04-23-2002, 11:11 PM

Originally posted by felix220

This is absolute nonsense, and only serves to demonstrate *again* how little the people who support SPEWS understand the internet.

We have been included in SPEWS list and we react to SPAM complaints within a few hours of receiving them *without fail*

There were two instances ever, when we took a few days to respond because we didn't check a mailbox that was used for abuse notices.. this was an innocent mistake and was rectified immediately and will not knowingly recur.

I see that SPEWS worked on you, then. Unlike many of the posts here, yours seem quite lucid, So I thought I might respond (hopefully) in kind, and perhaps persuade you to reconsider your position on SPEWS.

I'd encourage you to judge the efficacy of SPEWS not in terms of how many mails are blocked, how professionally (or not) SPEWS is, or the attitude of some SPEWS supporters, but rather the decrease in the IP range of spam-friendly hosts (and you know they are out there). Rackspace comes to mind as a case in point. And watch what will happen with Sprint(link). As the IP universe of spam-supporting hosting companies shrinks, it will be easier and easier to limit the infrastructural overhead that spam causes. This saves us, and our customers, real money.

True, SPEWS has made subnetting mistakes, domain name mistakes, and other errors. These are typically corrected within hours. I don't think it is nearly as bad as you make it out. Indeed, I think what many people see as "unprofessionalism" is rather the backlash of the perceived failure of MAPS to successfully curb spam with more gentle, educational means. SPEWS receives no mail, and doesn't talk to listees, doesn't attempt education, doesn't take nominations, has little overhead, requires public contrition, and is as invulnerable to threat of lawsuite as is practical. That is the anti-MAPS. The good cop, the bad cop. Judging by the turnover rate of de-listings, it seems that the "bad cop" stick is more successful than the "good-cop" carrot.

I do not think I am alone in thinking that SPEWS is an effective tool in the fight against spam. Judging by some of the posters here, it seems quite effective indeed.

Good luck on keeping your corner of the net spam-free.

Vortech

04-24-2002, 12:43 AM

Us as well we have a very hard spam rule and still got listed for some damn spammer.. We made a post on deja tonight will see what happens.. The hell with SPEWS THEY REALLY suck..

Can't even email them have to go post on some forum.. They should be shut down.. I hate spam as much as the next guy but this is just nuts..

WizyWyg

04-24-2002, 01:02 AM

Originally posted by Vortech
Us as well we have a very hard spam rule and still got listed for some damn spammer.. We made a post on deja tonight will see what happens.. The hell with SPEWS THEY REALLY suck..

Can't even email them have to go post on some forum.. They should be shut down.. I hate spam as much as the next guy but this is just nuts..

Another clueless person who doesn't know what spews is

http://www.spews.org

Please educate yourself before complaining about it.

Spews is a list. No one is forced to use it. If you encounter an isp who does, Why dont you take the time to find out why YOU are listed on spews and take measures to correct that problem, instead of complaining and whining like a baby?

They dont need to post; they dont need to answer to anyone. They maintain a list. That list happens to be used by others. YOUR aggravation is due to the fact that people find their lists to work. If it works, then no one is not going to stop using it.

Again, no one forces anyone to use their list.

Edit:

Saw your posting in NANAE

So question is : WHY Did you take so long to respond to ABUSE complaints?

You have already been caught in a lie on NANAE about spam support.

So as I see it, another spamming whiner trying to convince us that he doesn't deserve to be in Spews. You are in spews because you didn't answer your complaints and provided service to a KNOWN spammer.

2Grumpy

04-24-2002, 01:15 AM

If it works, then no one is not going to stop using it.

When I see MSN.COM and YAHOO.COM and MAIL.RU on that list, I'll say "ok they're putting anybody and everybody who spams on this list, fine"

Won't happen. You won't see the 500 pound gorilla on there. But you will see the poor dedicated server owner who hasn't even had his server 20 minutes only to find the whole CLASS C he's on is on that list. Yeah that works allright. Took 3 MONTHS before it got removed from that list.

They remind me of the little ankle biting dog who'll nip the heels of children or old ladies but let some big strong fella come along with size 12 workboots and steel toes, and the little ankle biter stays under the couch, growling. Knowing full well if he bites THAT ankle he's gonna do an impression of the game winning field goal at the SuperBowl.

As long as Spews and those other lists won't list the REAL spam senders (MSN, YAHOO, etc) then what good is their list? They don't even have the balls to put the cause of most of the spam out there on their precious little list, because they know better than to bite the ankle connected to those size 12's.

If you won't tackle ALL the spammers then why bother with a crusade at all?

Vortech

04-24-2002, 01:23 AM

Boy as you don't know much maybe you should try again.. Spammers are turned off with in hours here so please take you all for spews crap some where else I know all about them and could care less about them and there list.. But there is no reason to list a company that is not spamming or has not done any thing.

May be you should read there damn site your self..
Right from SPEWS Site here
"SPEWS is just an automated system, if spam or spam involvement (hosting spammers, selling spamware) from your IP address/range ceases, it will drop out of the list in time."

This never happens with them.. This Ernesto Haberli guy has not been on our network well over 2 months but still listed right.. Come on dude..

As for a "lie on NANAE about spam support." think again little boy.. As again you and the NANAE jump to thing they no nothing about.. But how would they as other have show and you just proved you jump to think things before finding out what is really going on goes to show once again.

The other owner over 2 years ago is the one that made the problems not US now.. Live now not 2 years back dude not even the same owners since i took the comany over.. Also where one of there names is still listed i have no idea why its on there and needs to be removed i did not even know about that so.. There is far from a lie any where.. Its just NANAE thinking they know every thing once again and never ask nor do they know.

nox

04-24-2002, 01:25 AM

Me and my big mouth.. :)

And overly broad statement to be saying. We dont understand the internet just because we support a system that works? Honestly, how can anyone come up with such an assanine conclusion?

Because the only advertised contact with SPEWS supporters/administrators is via a newsgroup or forum, and the great majority of the individuals who purport to be SPEWS supporters there are ignorant, abusive and make comments which demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the web hosting industry infrastructure [for want of a better word] as it is today.

This of course may not be the intention of SPEWS creators/admins.

Spews lists ip blocks or domains that have not acted upon in a timely manner to spam complaints. Timely means that if a complain is sent in, within days there should be confirmation by said ISP/Domain/Abuse Department to take care of that situation, and not ignore complaints altogether.

The facts show this *not* to be the case in a great number of instances, which is why there are such strong reactions here. The reporting is not consistent and includes people/small companies who actively spend time and money battling spam in a timely manner, and yet are accused by the newsgroup cronies of being beneath contempt..

YOU do not END up in spews only after being complained about once. YOU end up in spews because you or your webhost continues to ignore spam complaints, or do not act upon them in a timely manner. The only time someone starts complaining about spews is that they've been listed there after SEVERAL complaints, that have gone unanswered.

Again, your "gripes" is not with SPEWS. Its with the webhost/isp or YOU yourself for not following up on abuse reports in a timely manner.

Whoever you are, you are so dismally out of touch with the way SPEWS works [not necessarily how it's intended to work] that it can only give credence to our comments. There are many who have been/are listed in SPEWS who do not fall under this category.. we for one, whether you claim it's untrue or not, react to and handle complaints comprehensively and quickly.. I'm sure most other HOSTS here do to, but they still seem to struggle with SPEWS delistings in a way that is quite different from your claims.. or when OPENLY confronting the SPEWS community/administrators in the recommended way, are abused for their trouble and accused of making excuses to cover their real agenda.. SPEWS supporters cannot adequately discern between those who are guilty and those who are genuine.

I guess the bottom line is that web hosts in general nurture a sense of community in many ways, and when confronted with the vitriole and 'wrong headed' attitude of the self proclaimed SPEWS supporters they can only react the way you see here..

It is also perceived that SPEWS, who are a minor player [you wouldn't think so from this thread] will MISLEAD many unsophisticated people/users [newbies] who don't understand the full implications of what they are doing, and will grow the list 'usage' to an unwieldy level, making the management of IP blocks more difficult than it already is.. for possibly the wrong reasons..

But when it's said and done, you do have the right to do whatever you like.. we hate spam and spammers and it would be *nice* not to be abused by people who are like minded, but unable to understand that..

instead of asking why we dont want to work with admins who have shown to ignore us, why dont you ask yourself why are you complaining because you were listed in spews.

You were listed, get over it. You will be removed once they feel that you are no longer a threat to the net.

Dear oh dear, where DO you people get off?? I am not complaining that we were listed in SPEWS, in fact I admitted that we made an unforgiveable mistake and one abuse email address out of many was not checked for a few days.. this is not the problem here.. working with a group of people who are technically competent AND want to do their bit to reduce SPAM is the point.. you know.. 'peace brother'

The belief that your group are the 'guardians of the net' who decide when and how 'threats' should be handled, is also another reason for your credibility problem here.. even if it is 'only' for a selfish, financial reason.. most of these hosts are very keen to defend the net from any threat which may close it down or restrict it.. and you guys appear to be running hot as contenders for a 'threat' rather than a 'protector' ..

Tried many times and failed. Seems that you haven't been around long have you. All we get is cartooney threats; our complaints go to the SPAMMERS themselves, or we are ignored. Its like the boy who cried wolf.

Haven't been around what long? egad! LOL I think that the web hosting landscape has changed so dramatically in the last 12 months in terms of the number of small SP's offering services that you may consider a rethink about this.. you could strategically align yourselves with a huge number of people who are in a position to influence most of the major data centres and/or carriers here.. and if not treated like fools they would be likely to be more effective than you currently give them credit for...

-----

Hillbilly...

Yes, you seem to be more balanced, if not still a tad condescending...

Thank you for your comments, they seem to be more 'truthful' than many of your own colleagues are prepared, or know how, to deliver..

If we could create a similar concept to SPEWS which alerted us to the identity of known spammers, we could prevent them from even getting to first base... but alas they are slippery little devils and find new ways of eluding detection..

If this was a spirited debate instead of a free for all it might get somewhere..

It seems that the 'bad cop' SPEWS has decided that 'virtual violence' is the only solution, as the more diplomatic 'good cop' method has been totally exhausted .. you are certainly inspired people..

WizyWyg

04-24-2002, 01:40 AM

Originally posted by Dixiesys

When I see MSN.COM and YAHOO.COM and MAIL.RU on that list, I'll say "ok they're putting anybody and everybody who spams on this list, fine"

Unlike other "domains" MSN, yahoo.com and many others act on spam complaints in a timely fashion, even it means that they have a bot answering it. I've yet not to receive anything from HOtmail abuse department, Yahoo or MSN about any complaints I've made. I've YET to receive a responses from Interland, UUNET, qwest, Rackspace, Broadwing or the tons of other sites that are in spews this moment.

See the difference.
The fact that MSN, hotmail and Yahoo mainly host 'spam webaddresses' are also a point as well. Web addresses are easy to "get rid of" and terminate than webhosts who keep whole domains active.

Won't happen. You won't see the 500 pound gorilla on there. But you will see the poor dedicated server owner who hasn't even had his server 20 minutes only to find the whole CLASS C he's on is on that list. Yeah that works allright. Took 3 MONTHS before it got removed from that list.

Has happened. It it weren't for listing on SPEWS and other RBL lists, ISP/webhosts like UUNET (although still has blocks on
Spews and RBl's) wouldn't have started to clean up their acts.
Nearly a year ago, UUNET was receiving 15,000 complaints a week about spammers on their network. After having whole blocks being listed, they finally got to work and started answering their abuse complaints and started to kick of spammers off their networks. THEY are one of hte biggest providers of webhosting services on the internet, and some pockets of spaces they lease out still have problems but considering that their complaints have now gone down to a couple of thousand per week is something to say how well lists like spews do work.

To address your "gorilla": Said person should have done his/her homework before agreeing to purchase a space on a server that was damaged goods. Should have researched to find out if their isp/webhost was spam friendly. SHOULD have researched to find out if they keep pink contracts with spammers. SHOULD have made sure that their contract with their ISP included that if any of the ip blocks did end up on a BLOCK list of some sort that the webhost would immediately move them to a range of ip's that aren't hampered by any block list or are clean. SHOULD learn how to configure the servers so it does not relay spam. Ignorance is not a defense the last time I looked.

They remind me of the little ankle biting dog who'll nip the heels of children or old ladies but let some big strong fella come along with size 12 workboots and steel toes, and the little ankle biter stays under the couch, growling. Knowing full well if he bites THAT ankle he's gonna do an impression of the game winning field goal at the SuperBowl.

Bad analogy since Spews and similar lists have blocked big isp's already. ATT, SPRINT and QWEST which are still in spews and are definite spam supporters. BIGGER THAN MSN, yahoo or hotmail.

As long as Spews and those other lists won't list the REAL spam senders (MSN, YAHOO, etc) then what good is their list?

So are you complaining about services the provider that you agree to when you sign up for their services or Spammers who use MSN< yahoo, hotmail drop boxes for their spam? Please be sure you know who and what you are accusing them first before saying that Spews favors one over the other. AS SHOWN, much bigger companies and supporters of SPAM and spammers are on SPEWS.

Last I looked at my Spamcop complaints that I keep, 90% of my complaints are to Broadwing, UUNET and Qwest and some Korean and chinese servers. less than 10% of my spam complaints are to MSN, Yahoo and they are 99% of time for email drop boxes. Statistics prove that Spamming comes from these domains, and not from MSN, or Yahoo. I 've never received spam from Mail.ru so I can't complain to comment on that server/domain.

They don't even have the balls to put the cause of most of the spam out there on their precious little list, because they know better than to bite the ankle connected to those size 12's.

What balls do they need? The have spamtrap addresses that sit out there in internet space that are not subscribed to anything, not used anywhere. If something comes into those several mailboxes, then definitely its spam.. That's all the proof they need. They're proof is then re-inforced when they make a complaint to all those involved with the spam (the open relay, the server where the email was sent from, the drop box domains, the website promoted, etc) do not act on that complaint. AGAIN, it takes more than one time to get you listed in spews. Its constant spamming and ignoring complaints that do. Or in another case, hosting a known spammer or as a host, moving said spammer around your their ip block to avoid these lists.

If you won't tackle ALL the spammers then why bother with a crusade at all?

Provide proof that msn, yahoo has spammed you, and post it to NANAE. Spews drops in on NANAE to see what is up and they will look to see if your claim is on target.

And they do what they do. It wont solve the spam problem totally, that's where legislation and education comes in, but we gotta start somewhere. Spews works. Dont like? Too bad.

My server, my rules. Dont like it? Too bad.
Live with it.

UmBillyCord

04-24-2002, 01:47 AM

These arrogant responses from the SPEWS supporters just validates the ignorance these idiots possess. I absolutely hate SPEWS and the scab-eating punks that manage it.

The concept behind SPEWS is excellent. It is the implementation of its ideas and management of its system that is flawed. Instead of working with mid-level host/ISPs, they fight against them using the ignorant belief "guilty until proven innocent - then when found innocent, make sure to kiss our a**"

Vortech

04-24-2002, 02:05 AM

You know the funny thing about our part is this..
SPEWS listed us for a spammer that signed up with us and never spammed from here.. We never got one spam complaint on the guy.. But yet SPEWS blocks spammers right.. Ok he maybe a spammer and we removed him just because he was a spammer but the point is he never spammed or had a chance to from our network..

This is down right low and dirty by SPWES and is in all not right.. The guy never even spammed from our network why even list us in there.. Plus the guy has now been removed for well over 30 days and still listed in there so much for there system..

If not removed soon we just plan to put a slap them with a large lawsuit all together together as they are costng us biz. and making lots of problems as always this should take care of the problem.. :)

We have no problem removing spammers its when they list US and don't remove you even when the spammer or known spammer has been removed for your system.. Just down right WRONG.

2Grumpy

04-24-2002, 02:07 AM

It'll get censored but I'll say it anyway.

Bull****.

How many complaints a day you reckon Yahoo.com email accounts generate?

If I, little old me, gave away free email accounts and a proportionate number of my free accounts were reported to spews (as I'm sure people report the yahoo abusers) I'd find myself on that list even if I deleted those accounts within SECONDS of the complaints. I'd be told I should monitor my servers against this sort of thing, to not give out free email addresses if I can't watch them, but that's what Yahoo does.

And yes I get plenty of spam that starts with hotmail and yahoo,

Don't try to blow smoke up my tail and tell me it's a blow dryer, Yahoo and MSN act "after the fact" if a little company like me acted like that AFTER several thousand spam were sent I'd be on that list, period, and Yahoo/MSN etc ARE NOT and will not be on that list for the same offenses.

And no, not one of my servers is listed (I just checked).

Edit: but I wouldn't be surprised to see one or two somehow make it onto that list in the very near future, as I have a funny feeling we got at least one Spews.org "somebody's" hanging with us in here, and I wouldn't be surprised to see an abuse of power take place, I've seen it time and time again, give some bitter, ineffective in all other parts of his life (especially social), loser a little bit of power (say as a Spews admin) and he'll abuse it, every time. Join any irc network, online game, or chat room to see this in action, it's humor at its finest.

WizyWyg

04-24-2002, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by felix220

Because the only advertised contact with SPEWS supporters/administrators is via a newsgroup or forum

Not it does not say that,

From the FAQ:

Q41: How does one contact SPEWS?
A41: One does not. SPEWS does not receive email - it's just an automated system and website, SPEWS and other blocklist issues can be discussed in the public forums mentioned above. The newsgroup news.admin.net-abuse.email (NANAE) is a good choice, and Google makes it quite easy to post messages there via the Web as M@ilGate does via email. Note that posting messages in these newsgroups & lists will not have any effect on SPEWS listings, only the discontinuation of spam and/or spam support will. Be aware that posting one's email address to any publicly viewable forum or website makes it instantly available to spammers. If you're concerned about getting spammed, change or "mung" the email address you use to post with.

Again, no one talks to spews. No one is spews in NANAE. You cannot contact them. They will not contact you. You can post your questions in NANAE, but your request for removal will not be answered.

and the great majority of the individuals who purport to be SPEWS supporters there are ignorant, abusive and make comments which demonstrate a lack of knowledge of the web hosting industry infrastructure [for want of a better word] as it is today.

Again, a very broad statement, since many users of NANAE ARE Webhosts and Administrators and people who run their own servers and networks. We've had everyone from UUNET to PSI drop in on NANAE. Even smaller domains have dropped in there to post and give advice. Seems that the person who doesn't know about the "industry" is you.

The only reason they would be 'abusive' to you is that there too many people "like" you who come into NANAE without checking it out before posting (EVER heard of Netiquette about posting to newsgroups you've never particpated in? http://www.fau.edu/netiquette/net/dis.html).

We've seen it all. Cartooney Threats of people who want to sue Spews (which cannot be done, because they aren't breaking any laws whatsoever), and retaliation from administrators who think that their TRAFFIC must be accpeted by everyone on the net.

This of course may not be the intention of SPEWS creators/admins.

Oh, they've been there. They've learned from the mistakes made by MAPS and ORBS and dont plan on making it themselves. They protect themselves by maintaining a list. They offer that list to everyone who wishes to use it. They dont force people to use it.

Simple concept.

The facts show this *not* to be the case in a great number of instances, which is why there are such strong reactions here.

Welcome to the internet. WE ARE faceless people and we could care less if you're a small time internet service provider or big wig with UUNet. YOu provide support to spammers, expect to pay a price for it. If it means that your other legitimate users can't get their email out, that's too bad huh? This is what spam has done to the internet. Turned a medium that could be used for communication into a cesspool for abusers to flourish.
Bad apples spoil the bunch.

Whoever you are, you are so dismally out of touch with the way SPEWS works [not necessarily how it's intended to work] that it can only give credence to our comments.

Spews prevents crap from getting into my inbox. Crap that takes up space and resrouces from my network. I own my own webspace and maintain my own server. I dont want your crap if you support spammers. If you have done all that you can to clean up your server, you will be delisted as soon as spews delists you.

Spam causes more harm to networks than good. The less of it the better.

There are many who have been/are listed in SPEWS who do not fall under this category.. we for one, whether you claim it's untrue or not, react to and handle complaints comprehensively and quickly.. .

Again, did you bother to read http://www.spews.org does? Hmm?
You get delisted once they dont receive any spam from your servers, or provider hosting to spammers. As soon as that clears, you are no longer listed on spews, hence those who use spews, will now be available to you. We support spews because its shown to work. IF it means losing some of your traffic, that's fine. If you clean up, your traffic will be once again accepted by our servers or those servers who uses Spews. Spews is updated nearly everyday. ITs up to the isp/webhost to update their spews records. Some do it every week, some every month. You have to wait until they decide to delist you.

And what about private black lists? Hmm? Do you honestly think that Spews is the only place you're listed? Spews is a lot more lenient as far as delisting goes, but you may never get delisted off of private lists.

Again, this ire against Spews is the fact that their lists are made public. Its easy to attack something that publicly states that your server or network supported spam. Why not attack those who own private black lists and ask for their reasons why they listed you?

Guess what; no one needs a reason to validate their listings. Spews provides reasons in their listings along with the ip's they block so that people can see why they have listed you or any network. Private lists dont need such reasons.

I guess the bottom line is that web hosts in general nurture a sense of community in many ways, and when confronted with the vitriole and 'wrong headed' attitude of the self proclaimed SPEWS supporters they can only react the way you see here..

We react this way because as demonstrated by your postings, you have no idea of what Spews is or similar black lists are. Everything is explained clearly at their website, but it seems that no one wants to take the time and "jumps" the gun to point blame at spews. Spews isn't the reason why people are listed; Isp's /webhosts who support spammers and ignore complaints are.

It is also perceived that SPEWS, who are a minor player [you wouldn't think so from this thread] will MISLEAD many unsophisticated people/users [newbies] who don't understand the full implications of what they are doing, and will grow the list to an unwieldy level, making the management of IP blocks more difficult than it already is.. for possibly the wrong reasons..

Again, you have demonstrated your cluelessness about Spews and shown that you have not read over the FAQ over at their website.

All they do is provide a list. They explain in each case why ip's and blocks are listed. A newbie wouldn't be using SPEWS in the first place. ISP's who wish to reduce the amt of spam coming into their network do. Joe Schmoe wouldn't use SPEWS for their private mail box, But Joe Schmoe's isp might. If Joe Schmoe doesn't know who or what Spews is, they can easily go to the website and read.

But when it's said and done, you do have the right to do whatever you like.. we hate spam and spammers and it would be *nice* not to be abused by people who are like minded, but unable to understand that..

Seems that those who hate spam and spam supporters have the right idea.

You support spam, your traffic is not wanted on their servers. Plain and simple concept.

Dear oh dear, where DO you people get off?? I am not complaining that we were listed in SPEWS,

Its was just a statement saying that ignoring or forgetting about a mailbox to take abuse complaints can LEAD to a listing in spews because no one answering in a timely manor the abuse complaints. To the eyes of hte person sending the complaint, if you dotn answer or take care of the problem once notified (that means as soon as they hit SEND on their email program and dont receive a bounce), you are then lumped into "hey, they are ignoring me....spamemr is still connected...must be a spam supporter".

The belief that your group are the 'guardians of the net' who decide when and how 'threats' should be handled, is also another reason for your credibility problem here.. even if it is 'only' for a selfish, financial reason.. most of these hosts are very keen to defend the net from any threat which may close it down or restrict it.. and you guys appear to be running hot as contenders for a 'threat' rather than a 'protector' ..

Did we say we are "guardians' of the net. That's a typical retalitory remark og a spam supporter. What we do is find ways to monitor and make sure SPAM do not enter our networks. IF it means using Black lists, and SPEWS or MAPS and ORBZ or ORBS to do it, we are free to. We want to protect our systems from being overloaded with crap, and denying efficient service to our customers or access to our webspaces or domains. Sorry, its all about money in this game. Im sure you'll be very happy if your isp/webhost decides to raise your cost of your domain hosting by another $100 a year because they need the extra dough to handle the deluge of spam.

Haven't been around what long? egad! LOL I think that the web hosting landscape has changed so dramatically in the last 12 months in terms of the number of small SP's offering services that you may consider a rethink about this

Sorry, come again? I think that was hot air blowing there.
I've been in web design, hosting, and networking for nearly a decade. Where have you been?

Give us a cartooney threat or whine like a baby...dotn expect anyone to give you the time of day.

WizyWyg

04-24-2002, 02:31 AM

Originally posted by Vortech
Boy as you don't know much maybe you should try again.. Spammers are turned off with in hours here so please take you all for spews crap some where else I know all about them and could care less about them and there list.. But there is no reason to list a company that is not spamming or has not done any thing.

yes there is reason to keep you in spews.
IT TOOK YOU Too long to answer those abuse complaints.
IT TOOK YOU too long to get a very well known spammer off of your servers
YOU ONLY Removed said spammer once you were notified you were in spews.

Why didn't you act on those complaints and get that spammer off your network before you got spewed?

You not only are stuck in spews till they feel you are "ready" to leave, you've made it into private black list and wont be removed till hell freezes over.

I suggest you take a look at your posting in NANAE again, since you haven't bothered to answer these questions.

May be you should read there damn site your self..
Right from SPEWS Site here
"SPEWS is just an automated system, if spam or spam involvement (hosting spammers, selling spamware) from your IP address/range ceases, it will drop out of the list in time."

Yes, I've read it many times over. You are in spews. You hosted a spammer. TOOK You a listing in spews before you acted upon legitimate complaints about spamming from your network. That' is spam support. Spews doesn't feel that you should be removed as of yet till you show that you are willing to answer abuse complaints in a timely manner.

This never happens with them.. This Ernesto Haberli guy has not been on our network well over 2 months but still listed right.. Come on dude..

So what? you'll probably remain in private block lists for the rest of your life. What are you going to do about those?

As for a "lie on NANAE about spam support." think again little boy.. As again you and the NANAE jump to thing they no nothing about..

Lies and lies and more lies:
You stated in your post at Nanae that you didnt know who Ernesto was:

Taken from NANAE and double checked with the business registry for Florida.

How do you explain the fact that you co-own a business with Andrew
Amend, Brad?

Vortech Hosting / Vortech Inc.

PUGH, BRADFORD
160 S. SEMORAN BLVD.
ORLANDO FL 32807

SMITH, CRAIG
160 S. SEMORAN BLVD.
ORLANDO FL 32807

AMEND, ANDREW
246 S. LORRAINE
WICHITA KS 67211

You're in business with Andrew Amend, a known Haberli cohort, and
you had 'no idea Ernesto Haberli was a spammer'? Pull the other one,
please.

and:

Let's refresh your faulty memory, K?

<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22andrew+amend%22&hl=en&sa=G&scoring=d>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=+%22ernesto+haberli%22&hl=en&sa=G&scoring=d>

<http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/search.lasso?evidencefile=1141>
<http://www.spamhaus.org/rokso/search.lasso?evidencefile=1395>

Please tell a plausible lie next time.

nox

04-24-2002, 03:04 AM

wyziwyg.. it seems that your decade of experience in this industry has made you bitter and full of crap....

Just to show how 'smart' you and your bright sparks are I will put a sanitised email here showing how your network knowledge over there is so up to date, *we* had to show you how the system works these days, not 1992, which is where your nasty mind seems to be stuck..

----------------------------------------------------

----- Forwarded message from SPEWS Admin <spews@relays.osirusoft.com> -----

Envelope-to: ***********
X-Sieve: cmu-sieve 2.0
X-Secure: On
X-Forward: Please
To: ******************
From: SPEWS Admin <spews@relays.osirusoft.com>
Subject: Re: incorrectly listed socks proxy?

Hello ******, you wrote and it was forwarded:

> According to spews website, 20*.2**.55.20* is an open socks proxy, used
> for spamming purposes. However, if you connect to port 1080 on the
> machine, it boots you right off; there is no socks daemon running on the
> box, it's simply an open port. Can you please either explain why it's
> blacklisted, or fix the probe to actually attempt to use the box as a
> proxy, instead of simply checking if port 1080 is open?

Sorry about this, this is one of the debates we've had. We didn't want to
have to test systems because as with open-relay testing, many people think
it's the same as hacking in. But over the past couple of weeks, we've seen
systems (that have been reported for sending unsolicited email - could this
one have?) that keep open SOCKS ports, but there is no way for spammers to
exploit them.

The compromise we are planning to do, is to go ahead and test the port, but
not send any email, just see if we can connect to STMP servers though it
without needing authentication. This may still annoy some people, but what
else can one do.

I've had the IP address you sent removed from the system. Sorry for the
trouble, but as you see, this is a tricky area.

Best regards,

A SPEWS Admin

--------------------------------------------------------------

Typically you'll say that this is a forged email and that no such thing is possible, or if it's real then why can't the full details be shown.. well if you do need the answers for this then you are truly nothing more than a trouble maker who will never change.. in fact your level of protest about people like us being spammers begins to make me wonder about you and some of your loonie friends.. a great disguise ..

I have no intention of letting you ruin someone elses reputation, who may rely on it for their financial well being..

Anyway, the point is you DON'T ALWAYS have the knowledge or subsequently the authority to present yourselves as a useful tool to the public at large and you can't escape the responsibility that comes with what you are doing.. you are like the Tobacco companies.. relying on the word CHOICE, to mitigate your nonsense..

Why, if you and I are both actively involved every day with SPAM and network issues, are we debating whether your great depth of experience in the internet realm amassed over a decade [BTW my first dealings in this business were the early 80's] is so complete that your opinion is to be lauded and anyone who doesn't is scum??? If I am such an ******* and a dunce, then wouldn't it be better to be nice and educate me.. you seem to have time to post everywhere and *complain and whine* so you could easily turn that into something productive as opposed to dazzling us with your wholesome goodness and better judgement..

Get a life.. [ no, really, you should try it.. there are so many great things to do.. ]

As is your type's way you will need to have the last word, but I am done with this thread..[don't miss out on this quote now, will you]

PS: I am quite aware of what SPEWS is and your semantics will not change the fact that a list has been created and is made publicly available..

PPS: out of the many Class C's we manage we have one or two IP's ever listed, so my comments are not borne from being listed at SPEWS, but from the methods used to manage the information.. I would far prefer to work with SPEWS and similar lists to combat spam.. but it needs some serious people to do that and not be debating the Netiquette of newsgroups and other territorial nonsense.

Annette

04-24-2002, 04:41 AM

Just one comment to make to those of you who are on the most bitter of the opposing sides about SPEWS. This is a generic "you" in the sense that it is not directed at any one person in particular, nor is it an accusation of any type, so please save your fingers before you start taking offense where none exists.

This thread was posted to nanae as "interesting". I'm a little surprised that the other thread about VO (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=45481) wasn't posted there as a followup since it is related and since people there have had contact with VO at various times (and one person actually mentions them), but that's probably because it slid off the first page.

It does not pay to argue with the people in nanae, and this has nothing to do with SPEWS. First, the people that tend to read and post there have no problem seeing through whatever the excuse of the day is from someone who has wound up in SPEWS. Second, many of them run their own lists in addition to what they might use from SPEWS. If you show up in nanae acting like the world must accept mail from your system or that you must be delisted "immediately" or start throwing around cartooney threats, the one thing you can be sure of is that you will make it into someone's private list. Even if you get delisted from SPEWS, you might remain in someone's permanent list because you didn't just address the problem, state the removal, and ask to be removed.

Railing against SPEWS, here or elsewhere, will get you nowhere. You hate the idea of SPEWS, no problem. Remember, though, that the choice to use SPEWS, whether you believe it to be an effective tool or not, has nothing to do with SPEWS but with the remote system that is rejecting your email since they are the ones using the list. I've seen people get removed from SPEWS, usually within a day or two or posting to nanae that they have addressed whatever landed them there in the first place. Even people who have taken longer than some of the regulars in nanae think they should have taken to rid themselves of their problem have been delisted in a reasonable timeframe from SPEWS (even though those people might find themselves in private lists longer, or permanently).

The list is in use, by who knows how many ISPs/hosts. For some people, it does take landing in SPEWS to get them to deal with whatever their problem happens to be. For others, there is no trip to SPEWS at all, because they just deal with the problem, do not offer up excuses, and take care of their corner of the 'Net. Is it a fair system? That depends on who you ask, and it really doesn't matter anyway since it won't be going away. The effective thing to do is to get rid of the resource-sucking spammers who feel no moral qualms about abusing other peoples' systems and treat the people who can help with more courteousness and less venom.

WizyWyg

04-24-2002, 04:58 AM

Originally posted by felix220
wyziwyg.. it seems that your decade of experience in this industry has made you bitter and full of crap....

Just to show how 'smart' you and your bright sparks are I will put a sanitised email here showing how your network knowledge over there is so up to date, *we* had to show you how the system works these days, not 1992, which is where your nasty mind seems to be stuck..

Nope, Im in 2002 for the most part. Have been for the last 4 months (going on 5). Most of the admins here to seem to be in 1992, however, thinking that the net is still :in its infancy: and Dan Quayle "invented" it..

Osirusoft works hand in hand with spews by the way, but they are not owners of spews. Joe Jared has been accused of being the person behind spews, but everyone in the know, knows that he is not. Joe Jared probably has ways of contacting spews, but of course, he's not going to give that information up.

<snips email from a "spews admin">

Note: I can only take that "email at face value btw.

Typically you'll say that this is a forged email and that no such thing is possible, or if it's real then why can't the full details be shown.. well if you do need the answers for this then you are truly nothing more than a trouble maker who will never change.. in fact your level of protest about people like us being spammers begins to make me wonder about you and some of your loonie friends.. a great disguise ..

Putting words in other peoples mouths and jumping to conclusions hmm. Typical.

I can only take that email at face value, because I dont see the headers. All you had to do was post the headers and subject and that's all the proof I need to say its from "spews" (when its really from Osirusoft). So at face value, it only shows that a Relay was improperly listed and then taken down for that mistake. It happens. I've accidently put my own ip address in my block list on my email program by accident. But quickly corrected that.

I have no intention of letting you ruin someone elses reputation, who may rely on it for their financial well being..

If you mean to defend Vortech Inc / Vortech Hosting, by all means you're free to do so. But documented proof through google search and business records is proof enough that "someone" here is lying. There is documented proof that Vortech Inc was a host to a largely well known spammer. There is proof that Vortech only acted on eliminating this Spammer when they were finally listed in Spews after many complaints went ignored. So see, Spews is a good thing. IT gets lazy admins to get off their duffs and actually earn that salary of theirs. There is also proof that Vortech Inc is owned by a cohort of said spammer who was "hosted" on Vortech Hosting. Unless, Vortech INc hasn't updated their business records recently, we can only go with what is publicly available.

I appreciate that you want to try and defend someone, but you may want to see if that person is deserving of your defense.

Anyway, the point is you DON'T ALWAYS have the knowledge or subsequently the authority to present yourselves as a useful tool to the public at large and you can't escape the responsibility that comes with what you are doing.. you are like the Tobacco companies.. relying on the word CHOICE, to mitigate your nonsense..

I'll go with the statististics I keep as well as the statitistics kept at osirusoft, spews, spamcop, spamhaus and cauce. They seem to be a bit more trustworthy than admins who only wanna bitch because they had a problem and took their sweet ol time to fix it.
They want to point fingers at someone, when they should be blaming themselves for the problems that was created.

Why, if you and I are both actively involved every day with SPAM and network issues, are we debating whether your great depth of experience in the internet realm amassed over a decade [BTW my first dealings in this business were the early 80's] is so complete that your opinion is to be lauded and anyone who doesn't is scum???

Well its my belief and many others as well that if you are tolerant of spam, you support it. If you pay webspace providers/webhosts/isps who rather keep spammers on their networks and cause problems for the rest of those on the net, you support spam. If you host spammers and dont deal with them once a complaint is logged, you support spammers. Spammers are lower than scum. You're insulting scum to even be lumped in with what low life, once celled amoeba's called spammers are.

If I am such an ******* and a dunce, then wouldn't it be better to be nice and educate me.. you seem to have time to post everywhere and *complain and whine* so you could easily turn that into something productive as opposed to dazzling us with your wholesome goodness and better judgement..

I never called you an *******. You called yourself an *******.
Education is need on the part of the person who wants it. If you dont want to learn, education is wasted.

If you want to learn, instead of fighting with fellow anti-spam why not learn what they are trying to do and see what kinds of flaw so called "vortech hosting" people have. Considering the kind of person who is working there, I've permanently added Vortech Hosting to my block list. I dont want to deal with people who think that "they are clean" when they aren't. The proof speaks for itself, and no matter how much whining or complaining they do, they wont get out of my block list and many others as well.

http://www.spews.org is a good place to start. Since many who have spoken against it seem to not have read what they are about.

http://www.spamhaus.org/
http://www.cauce.org
http://law.spamcon.org/
http://www.spamlaws.com/
http://members.aol.com/emailfaq/emailfaq.html
http://www.emailabuse.org/
http://www.mailabuse.org/

And to outright call anti-spammers loonies or crazies is utterly stupid. You are callling fellow admins, sysops etc as well, and they seem to have good grasp on what kinds of problems spam can cause.

Get a life.. [ no, really, you should try it.. there are so many great things to do.. ]

As is your type's way you will need to have the last word, but I am done with this thread..[don't miss out on this quote now, will you]

Ahh too bad, cause You could have learned something today.

PS: I am quite aware of what SPEWS is and your semantics will not change the fact that a list has been created and is made publicly available..

So are you saying that its the fault of spews if people use it?
Oh please. That is the most assanince conclusion that anyone can come up with.

So if someone leaves their car door open, am I free to use the car? Its "publicly" available right? The door is open. The key is in the ignition. So I can use it right?

No semantics here. Its publicly available to everyone. Its up to the person using it to either use it 100% or 10%. Again, no one is forced to use Spews. And no one has to use the internet either.
So if you dont use the internet at all, your 100% protected from spam email. So are you saying that those who dont use the internet at all is being "a loon" because they are acitively using by choice not to have an email address, and no connection to the net? So that they do not get any spam at all?

PPS: out of the many Class C's we manage we have one or two IP's ever listed, so my comments are not borne from being listed at SPEWS, but from the methods used to manage the information.. I would far prefer to work with SPEWS and similar lists to combat spam.. but it needs some serious people to do that and not be debating the Netiquette of newsgroups and other territorial nonsense.

Work with spews by answering your complaint emails in a timely fashion. Dont wait on them. If you have to set up and auto responder to handle the amt of complaints, do that. All spews wants to see is that:
1. You are addressing the problem.
2. You are taking care of the problem.
3. You are eliminating the problem.

The only reasons why isp/webhosts end up in spews, and this can only be stressed so many times is that:
1. They ignored complaints
2. They move known spammers around in their networks and ip block to avoid their spammers from being blocked.
3. They only acted on removing spammers once they were listed in spews.

It takes more than one complaint to get listed in spews. It takes more than one ignore to a complaint to get listed in spews.

WizyWyg

04-24-2002, 05:10 AM

Originally posted by Annette
Is it a fair system? That depends on who you ask, and it really doesn't matter anyway since it won't be going away. The effective thing to do is to get rid of the resource-sucking spammers who feel no moral qualms about abusing other peoples' systems and treat the people who can help with more courteousness and less venom.

Amen. Well said, and be prepared for the pies in the face.

Annette

04-24-2002, 05:29 AM

I am always prepared. After I posted that (in my fog of sleep deprivation) I realized it should have been "courtesy" and not "courteousness", but couldn't get it corrected before you posted. The intent is there, even if my mind is not. :)

I have issues with some of the (IMO) more overly-broad entries in SPEWS, but I understand why they are there. I do not understand why people want to pick battles with others whose goals are presumably the same.

lazygun

04-24-2002, 05:33 AM

I find it amusing that not one of the spam supporters has responded to my question as to why I should pay for their advertising.

On the other hand considering that every spammer, I've spoken to has avoided that question, I'm not surprised really.

Proof to me that SPEWS is useful.
Shotgun's better than none at all I suppose.

*BTW, I am aware that not everyone on this board is a spammer/supporter.

uwiz

04-24-2002, 05:44 AM

Originally posted by nmihosting

uwiz, I resent your implication that I or my company is untrustworthy. [...]

Again I take everyone's attention back to my original post where I pointed out that even mentioning that you have experienced a spamming issue in a public forum brings out rude anti-spam zealots that only seem to exist to bash. uwiz has proven my point.

Try to keep the ad hominem attacks down to a dull roar, okay?

I am not implying that you or your company is untrustworthy. I'm describing the consequence of having allowed spam, however unknowingly or unwillingly, to come through your servers as you described.

You're asking for a free pass because "it only happened once."
I'm saying that, unfortunately, you're in a "one-down" position because it DID happen, and only time and the rebuilding of trust will let you and your company climb back up from that position. (I'm not saying that I think it's going to happen again, either. )

You mentioned that you received many rude and upsetting email messages over the unintentionally-allowed spam run. Is this a good reason to sink to that level yourself and respond with namecalling when we (tinw) try to give explanations and engage in discussion?

nox

04-24-2002, 08:22 AM

I lied..

:)

wyziwyg,

my comments about 'anothers reputation' was not referring to vortech, who I neither know nor care about, BUT rather, to my reason for not leaving certain details in the email I posted.. I don't entirely trust you and would not like to see the author inconvenienced.

lazygun,

I think you didn't get a response because there aren't any spam supporters actively posting here.. or if they are, they wouldn't dare admit that they are spammers.. I think the overwhelming view would be that you shouldn't be forced to pay for extra bandwidth because of large amounts of unsolicited email.. and yes SPEWS seems to be good for someone in your position..

I do not understand why people want to pick battles with others whose goals are presumably the same.

Annette, while it isn't clear who you think is picking the battles, and no need to respond... these words best describe my whole problem with the community that purports to support/use the SPEWS list...

nox

04-24-2002, 08:34 AM

Annette

04-24-2002, 08:35 AM

Sorry, I should have been more clear about that part. That comment was not directed to this discussion or to any of the participants. It was an observation about how people storm into nanae, guns a-blazing, demanding any number of things. That sets the course off badly right from the start. It doesn't have to be that way and it is completely counterproductive to the goals of any responsible and respectable web host or ISP or mail admin. I understand your viewpoint, I really do. What I'm suggesting is that changes to existing systems are better done via cooperation and participation rather than via attacks.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go deal with someone who just spammed our abuse mailbox.

Vortech

04-24-2002, 11:16 AM

Originally posted by WizyWyg

There is also proof that Vortech Inc is owned by a cohort of said spammer who was "hosted" on Vortech Hosting. Unless, Vortech INc hasn't updated their business records recently, we can only go with what is publicly available.

So, let me get this straight. We are guilty by association now and not by the fact of whether or not there is spam coming off our network?? Is that how this all works?? And here I was thinking we were listed for having spam coming from our network. Boy, was I wrong. At least now I know that SPEWS just adds people for the hell of it.

SPEWS’ concept of adding our company because there is a “known spammer” listed on our corporate papers, when there is no spam coming off of our network from this “known spammer”, in theory means ANYONE could be listed and labeled as a spammer. Very interesting concept. So, it makes me wonder when they order stuff online and they don’t receive their merchandise in a timely manner, do they add those sites too because they were slow?? Oh wait, what about when they send a receipt, are they added for sending that too?? Ok, I am being dramatic but it is to prove a point. They could list ANYONE for ANY REASON because they offer no proof that they ever received a spammed message from the listed site(s). Everyone is just supposed to take their word for it. Hell, look at us. We have someone they don’t like listed on our corporate papers and that is why we are listed. Last time I checked, that was called discrimination.

Their purpose is correct but the implementation is extremely flawed. We aggressively turn off anyone when or if we receive a spamming complaint. However, now it seems that is no longer good enough and this has become a witch-hunt. Now the rules have changed and you can only do business with people pre-approved by SPEWS as well. “Never mind the fact you have no spam coming from your network but if we don’t like you or anyone you know, we will add you to our list. Why?? Because we can.” THAT should be in their mission statement because that is obviously how it works.

Cowards building a list that is impossible to get off of just so they can feel like they are part of something and can say to their lil friends “I helped make that”. Wow, I am impressed.

:angry: :angry: :angry:

2Grumpy

04-24-2002, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by Vortech

Cowards building a list that is impossible to get off of just so they can feel like they are part of something and can say to their lil friends “I helped make that”. Wow, I am impressed.

Why I believe you're starting to get the idea.

Like I said, if you wanna see more examples of this mentality just join any IRC server and join channels such as "services" or "linuxhelp" or just play an online game and watch the antics of any "volunteers" (aka Guides or assistant GMs) and you'll see more of this same attitude on display.

It's really quite humorous if it isn't affecting your business bottom line.

nmihosting

04-24-2002, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by uwiz

Try to keep the ad hominem attacks down to a dull roar, okay?

I am not implying that you or your company is untrustworthy. I'm describing the consequence of having allowed spam, however unknowingly or unwillingly, to come through your servers as you described.

You're asking for a free pass because "it only happened once."
I'm saying that, unfortunately, you're in a "one-down" position because it DID happen, and only time and the rebuilding of trust will let you and your company climb back up from that position. (I'm not saying that I think it's going to happen again, either. )

You mentioned that you received many rude and upsetting email messages over the unintentionally-allowed spam run. Is this a good reason to sink to that level yourself and respond with namecalling when we (tinw) try to give explanations and engage in discussion?

It would be more helpful if you were not so condesending uwiz. It is comments like "and only time and the rebuilding of trust will let you and your company climb back up from that position" that annoy me. It indicates that self professed anti-spammers somehow have the right to control the level of trust attributed to my firm.

I did not break any percieved trust - our servers where used illegally - if a criminal steals your car and uses it as a getaway car in a crime are you arrested then not able to drive again until you have proven you are trustworthy? No, becuase this would be ridiculous. As is the notion that my firm needs to rebuild trust after being illegally hijacked by spammers.

We are ourselves are actively combating spammers on a daily basis. We are all in the same boat - but your ilk seem to tar us with the same brush as spammers and this is unacceptable. When the incident I have previously mentioned occured last year I visited some news groups to ask for advise - at this point we weren't even listed on SPEWS or any other RBL - the day the issue was brought to my attention I immeditaly started to invesigate and thought the newsgroups would be a good source of info. When I asked questions on these news groups I received nothing but a torrent of abuse - no helpful advise - just condesending and/or abusive replies. It was actually a number of weeks before our servers where listed on any RBL's, by which point we had actually resolved the problem. So i wasn't posting at newsgroups asking to be taken of lists or anything like that - I was asking peoples advise as a host on how to combat these issues and stop them from happening.

Again in this forum I post about last years incident - and suddenly we are right back to my firm being untrustworthy in the eyes of anti-spammers. Even thought i am not listed anywhere and no one is using our servers for spam (althoug I wouldn't be surprised that after I have posted here that few vindictive people will start blockign us for no other reason than they don't like what i have to say).

I would love to work with anti-spammers to combat the issue. But I will not work with people who treat me with no respect.

As I said earlier, we report any inbound spam directly via spam cop. Somedays it takes hours to do this because there is so much of it. But we do it becuase we believe as much as you do that spam should stop. We just choose to not abuse people in the process.

p920037

04-24-2002, 12:45 PM

Originally posted by felix220

This fascinates me.. you counted over 300 emails and someone read them to determine that they were spam..

So you must have a big company to have a human filtering the emails that SPEWS dictates come from naughty people/IP's..

so why, other than to be part of *something big*, do you need to support SPEWS ?? I'm sure the person who is reading the email or the headers to count the legitimate and illegitimate messages could do so without flying the flag for SPEWS and making/endorsing enlightening comments like "I love the sound of spanked spammers".. and support a bunch of wankers who get off seeing their name in type.. or are you a troll or maybe a bull****ter ?

No, I checked the logs and asked the intended recipients of the blocked email if they anybody with the email address of the "sender". I couldn't have read the email because the crap never made it past SMTP level thanks to SPEWS.

Since the vast majority of the sender addresses were things like hotjodiexxx@hotmail.com and biggerpenisnow@msn.com none of my users were concerned about not getting the email.

p920037

04-24-2002, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by nmihosting

It would be more helpful if you were not so condesending uwiz. It is comments like "and only time and the rebuilding of trust will let you and your company climb back up from that position" that annoy me. It indicates that self professed anti-spammers somehow have the right to control the level of trust attributed to my firm.

The fact is that we do have the right to control the level of trust attributed to your "ethikul bizness" when it comes to accepting email from you. I choose who I grant access to my mail server and I trust SPEWS' judgement to help facilitate that choice.

nmihosting

04-24-2002, 01:08 PM

Originally posted by p920037

The fact is that we do have the right to control the level of trust attributed to your "ethikul bizness" when it comes to accepting email from you. I choose who I grant access to my mail server and I trust SPEWS' judgement to help facilitate that choice.

Hi p920037,

I am not saying you do not have the right to use SPEWS - you do. Infact my posts here really haven't been about the actual list - which we are not on. I have been commenting on the militant attitidues of some holier than thou anti-spammers, who act like they have been appointed by God to rid the earth of spam. :angel:

As a system administator you have the right to block whomever you please using whatever RBL service you want. Spam is a nusiance - we deal with it everyday just as you do. We spend a great deal of time, energy and money combating it - as do many hosting companies.

BTW - I am going to presume that your use of the term "ethikul bizness" was intened to indicate that you don't really beleive us to be so - again not very nessicary as you have no expereine of doing business with us.

p920037

04-24-2002, 01:22 PM

Originally posted by nmihosting

Hi p920037,

I am not saying you do not have the right to use SPEWS - you do. Infact my posts here really haven't been about the actual list - which we are not on. I have been commenting on the militant attitidues of some holier than thou anti-spammers, who act like they have been appointed by God to rid the earth of spam. :angel:

As a system administator you have the right to block whomever you please using whatever RBL service you want. Spam is a nusiance - we deal with it everyday just as you do. We spend a great deal of time, energy and money combating it - as do many hosting companies.

That's great but not everybody recognizes the rights of sysadmins to use DNSBLs (RBL is a trademark held by MAPS). They start ranting about "frea speach" which isn't applicable to blocking spam on an email server.

2Grumpy

04-24-2002, 01:26 PM

Originally posted by p920037

That's great but not everybody recognizes the rights of sysadmins to use DNSBLs (RBL is a trademark held by MAPS). They start ranting about "frea speach" which isn't applicable to blocking spam on an email server.

As a private individual I'd use Spews or other bl.

Problem is as a business I'm reluctant to do so because one or two wrongfully blocked emails and I'd have customers screaming for my blood to spill because I just "lost them an email for a million dollar contract" (isn't it always?).

I guess the main problem is I can't trust "the police" when they're not accountable to anyone.

If Spews were apt to be held accountable for their mistakes (as I am if I let someone spam) then I would be more assured that the Spews list IS accurate. Of course I'm sure MSN and Yahoo still wouldn't be on it :(

nmihosting

04-24-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by p920037

That's great but not everybody recognizes the rights of sysadmins to use DNSBLs (RBL is a trademark held by MAPS). They start ranting about "frea speach" which isn't applicable to blocking spam on an email server.

Hi p920037,

By RBL I am also meaning any type of spam blocking service - DNSRBLs. And I do regonizse your right to use them. I am sure that those using them block alot of SPAM - but as Dixiesys comments above - those DNSRBLs with no oversight in place are not very responsible. But if you have found that it works for you then that is great.

Poster

04-24-2002, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by Vortech

Everyone is just supposed to take their word for it. Hell, look at us. We have someone they don’t like listed on our corporate papers and that is why we are listed. Last time I checked, that was called discrimination.

No, it is called listing an opinion. Other people may choose to trust that opinion. Thankfully, a lot of ISPs do.

Their purpose is correct but the implementation is extremely flawed.

No, they implement their system exactly as stated in their FAQ - Oh! You did read their FAQ, right? The purpose of SPEWS is to be an "early warning" system. (SPEWS = Spam Prevention Early Warning System).

You can choose to disagree with their purpose. But you cannot say that they do not implement it according to their purpose. You may not like their purpose. I do! Thanks, SPEWS!

We aggressively turn off anyone when or if we receive a spamming complaint. However, now it seems that is no longer good enough and this has become a witch-hunt. Now the rules have changed and you can only do business with people pre-approved by SPEWS as well. “Never mind the fact you have no spam coming from your network but if we don’t like you or anyone you know, we will add you to our list. Why?? Because we can.” THAT should be in their mission statement because that is obviously how it works.

You can call it what you like. It's a "hunt" allright. And yes, the SPEWS admins are the only ones who have a say about who is listed and who is not. And you can do business with everyone who wants to do business with you. But the users of SPEWS apparently don't want to do business with people on the list. Complain to them and not to SPEWS.

Nobody is forced to use SPEWS. The ISPs that do use it, do it because they trust SPEWS. It is in SPEWS' own interest to get the facts right. If they don't, people will stop using the list. It is completely self-regulating that way. How can you object to that?

Cowards building a list that is impossible to get off of just so they can feel like they are part of something and can say to their lil friends “I helped make that”. Wow, I am impressed.

I am impressed too. There has not been a block list this effective against spammers ever before. And since nobody knows who SPEWS is, they do not take credit for it. Too bad really. I would like to buy them a free beer. :D

And lastly: I am not SPEWS - I am just a fan! :stickout

cperciva

04-24-2002, 10:54 PM

Originally posted by nmihosting
As a system administator you have the right to block whomever you please using whatever RBL service you want. Spam is a nusiance - we deal with it everyday just as you do. We spend a great deal of time, energy and money combating it - as do many hosting companies.

Well... as a system administrator, you can do whatever you like. But as a *company*, you have an obligation to not block mail sent to your customers unless you specifically warned them before they signed up that legitimate email might be blocked. People might not like spam, but they *expect* legitimate email to arrive.

Poster

04-24-2002, 11:19 PM

Originally posted by cperciva

Well... as a system administrator, you can do whatever you like. But as a *company*, you have an obligation to not block mail sent to your customers unless you specifically warned them before they signed up that legitimate email might be blocked. People might not like spam, but they *expect* legitimate email to arrive.

I am not a lawyer, but I don't think they legally have to warn their customers/users about it. But this depends on the specific contract they have with their customers, of course. If it states that all emails - no matter the content or the source - must be delivered, then the customer might have a case against the ISP. But I doubt very much that ISPs have such statements in their contracts. And if they do, they would be foolish to use a list like SPEWS.

That said, it also worries me a bit that some (most?) ISPs do not openly say what spam filtering methods (if any) they are using. Personally, I think they should even advertise it as an advantage of their services.

cperciva

04-24-2002, 11:31 PM

Originally posted by Poster
I am not a lawyer, but I don't think they legally have to warn their customers/users about it. But this depends on the specific contract they have with their customers, of course. If it states that all emails - no matter the content or the source - must be delivered, then the customer might have a case against the ISP.

IANAL, but I talked to several people here in Oxford about this, and they told me that "when contracts are interpreted, they are interpreted in the context of 'implied terms'... in this case, since the average customer would expect to recieve all legitimate email sent to him, the company has an obligation to either ensure that no legitimate email is blocked, or warn the customers of that risk."

(this is not legal advice, consult a lawyer if you have money to burn, blah blah blah)

Poster

04-24-2002, 11:44 PM

Originally posted by cperciva

IANAL, but I talked to several people here in Oxford about this, and they told me that "when contracts are interpreted, they are interpreted in the context of 'implied terms'... in this case, since the average customer would expect to recieve all legitimate email sent to him, the company has an obligation to either ensure that no legitimate email is blocked, or warn the customers of that risk."

That sounds reasonable. But I guess that the court would have to decide what "implied terms" is exactly. IMO, it is not a clear case at all. For instance, blocking mail from known open relays could be argued to be for purely technical reasons - "we do not want to risk communicating with erroneously managed servers".

Also, one reason for blocking spam is to reduce the load on the mail servers. ISPs do that in other ways too: blocking too large emails, blocking emails when the users account has reached a certain size limit. These rules aren't always explicitly mentioned in contracts.

But again, it would be up to the court to decide this. And I do *not* believe it is wise to hide what you are doing.

nmihosting

04-25-2002, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by cperciva

Well... as a system administrator, you can do whatever you like. But as a *company*, you have an obligation to not block mail sent to your customers unless you specifically warned them before they signed up that legitimate email might be blocked. People might not like spam, but they *expect* legitimate email to arrive.

I agree. That's why we don't use any RBL/DNSRBL. Each of our customers has a spam blocking facility in their control panel where they can choose to block email they deem to be unwanted. We do not make that choice for them. But many customers do forward spam they receive to us, and we welcome them to, we then process it through spam cop and encourage our customers to do the same if they wish.

Poster

04-25-2002, 09:57 AM

Originally posted by nmihosting

I agree. That's why we don't use any RBL/DNSRBL. Each of our customers has a spam blocking facility in their control panel where they can choose to block email they deem to be unwanted.

Just out of curiosity: Is that personal blocklist IP-based?

If it is anything like Hotmail's "block sender" feature, it is utterly useless. But of course, you are free to choose whatever spam blocking measures you want.

nmihosting

04-25-2002, 10:28 AM

Originally posted by Poster

Just out of curiosity: Is that personal blocklist IP-based?

If it is anything like Hotmail's "block sender" feature, it is utterly useless. But of course, you are free to choose whatever spam blocking measures you want.

They can block specific email addresses, domains and IP's. As far as I know we haven't had any complaints about the feature being ineffective.

Poster

04-25-2002, 12:52 PM

Originally posted by nmihosting

They can block specific email addresses, domains and IP's. As far as I know we haven't had any complaints about the feature being ineffective.

Sounds like a good system to me. Not as effective or as accurate that a well-maintained DNSBL, but still a very sensible one. I'd prefer a not to maintain my own personal list, though.

devnull

04-25-2002, 05:00 PM

Vortech

04-25-2002, 06:11 PM

Originally posted by devnull

Aww, poor baby.

Clean up your house first, then gripe.

Hmmm..... We have had ZERO spam tolerance for well over a year. Don't know what this means here it is. 1 Spam complaint user is called 2 spam complaints account is shut down. Show me anther network that is this hard on spammers i bet you can't. You said "Clean up your house first" since you think we don't run a clean network show me a spam off our network in the last 6 months. I bet you $100 bucks it was shut down under 24 hour..

Now for the second part of what you said "then gripe".. Now this is the funny thing as you have no idea what you are even talking about here.. SPEWS listed us for having a known spammer on our network not for spamming.. This spammer never did any thing to tip us off but spews or the anti's know about his domain so it got list is spews.. I don't mind this one bit as it let us on to the spammer and his account was deleted. My Problem is even when we have deleted the spammer SPEWS did not remove 3 C blocks of our IP's..

This is not to bad of thing sure i could move it to anther C Block but why should if i did what was needed and got the spammer off our network? I mean we have 4 /20's IPs are not a thing for us. My problem is that maybe spews should re-think or better the system really or make it easier for real company to get removed..

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a letter from one of the other owners here to anther member on google.. I think he puts it in word very good..

I guess my big gripe with the anti-spam community is that you all seem to hurt the hosts more than the spammers. There are tons of people like me out here trying to make a living who want nothing to do with spam. 99% of our customers are just normal people with websites.

If you want to hurt the spammers you should re-evaluate your methods and think about educating the general public. Don't buy products advertised in UCE, don't patronize businesses of people sending UCE. Period. So far, sites like SpamHaus and SPEWS have only been successful at one thing,,, hurting the business of legitimate webhosts like us. For every spammer they have stopped,, they've probably caused 10 well-intentioned hosts to lose their backbones causing devastating financial damage to what may be a reputable and honest hosting outfit.

Let me give you an example of something.. tell me what you think.
SPEWS has blocked email on a server containing the IP 65.57.225.2. this is a virtual IP used for the whole server and also used by about 400 customers. Out of those 400 customers one of them was a spammer (Ernesto I think?). Out of those remaining customers... 3 sites were charitable non-profit sites. One was for a homeless shelter in California that I personally built and donated the hosting space for at no cost to them. ...2 more were high-school sports sites. 1 was a real-estate school in Orlando here, I built for a friend of mine and yet another was for a local Jujitsu school that I built for another friend who is also my Jujitsu instructor and a truly great man.

,, not to mention the other 390 or so other sites and people affected by the SPEWS list who DO NOT SPAM. Now in your honest opinion,, you tell me ,, who did this anti-spam organization hurt?... the spammer?,, my business?,,, innocent bystanders?
I honestly think that very little thought is given to these circumstances when people support stuff like SPEWS. If people knew who they were really hurting,, they may think twice and simply delete the unwanted email. You know as well as I do these spammers will simply move on to the next host etc, etc...

goodness0001

04-25-2002, 08:04 PM

I totally agree with vortech, to take this even farther, spews blocked every IP block of the ISP regardless if they spammed or not...they dont actuall offer hosting, just dedicated servers that yes ***SURPRISE SURPRISE*** had a little spam here and there, there is no way to stop it 100%.

The guys/girls at spews can go straight to hell, and i hope they realize they are the most worthless resource on the net. The only way they can be stopped is it people stopped using their service.

Poster

04-25-2002, 08:09 PM

Originally posted by goodness0001
The only way they can be stopped is it people stopped using their service.

Yep! Finally something we can agree on. SPEWS is alive and kicking (butt) exactly because many people are happily using it to defend themselves against spam. Why do you object?

allera

04-25-2002, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Poster
Yep! Finally something we can agree on. SPEWS is alive and kicking (butt) exactly because many people are happily using it to defend themselves against spam. Why do you object?
Because it is flawed. Whether or not you agree is what this whole thread is about, but I believe they are flawed.

Of course their system is going to "work" -- they block so many IPs they're bound to get all the spammers. Unfortunately, in the process, they block the wrong people as well.

I can start a HURLS.org, have everyone start emailing us their spam complaints, not bother verifying or documenting them, start blocking IPs and domains left and right, and have people that use our list rave and glorify it. But why would people use HURLS.org when they have SPEWS.org?

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 09:04 PM

Originally posted by Vortech
Hmmm..... We have had ZERO spam tolerance for well over a year. Don't know what this means here it is. 1 Spam complaint user is called 2 spam complaints account is shut down. Show me anther network that is this hard on spammers i bet you can't. You said "Clean up your house first" since you think we don't run a clean network show me a spam off our network in the last 6 months. I bet you $100 bucks it was shut down under 24 hour..

You still haven't addressed the problem here or in NANAE.

You have been asked over many times now:

WHY did it take so long for you to answer your complaints when YOU DID have a problem?

WHY did it take being put on a SPEWS list for you to take action against your spammers?

Simple questions that you have conveniently avoided in answering, and judging my your non-response in NANAE, its seems you take your sweet old time as well in answering any questions, as you do with legitimate complaints.

YOU dont end up in SPEWS for one complaint; You end up in SPEWS because:

1. You dont answer your complaints in a timely manner.
2. You dont act on complaints sent to you in a timely manner.
3. You move known spammers around your netspace in order to avoid block by those who use SPEWS or use their own private DNSBL lists.

And your answers in NANAE is reflective of everything that we can't stand about those who rather do business with spammers.

As for your "show me". Look around the net. LOOK at SPEWS own list. Whatever networks that AREN'T on their list MUST be doing something right? Like answering the complaint emails? Kicking of spammers from their networks quickly. Rather do business with legitmate customers than spammers. Any of these are obvious dont you think?

Now for the second part of what you said "then gripe".. Now this is the funny thing as you have no idea what you are even talking about here.. SPEWS listed us for having a known spammer on our network not for spamming.. This spammer never did any thing to tip us off but spews or the anti's know about his domain so it got list is spews.. I don't mind this one bit as it let us on to the spammer and his account was deleted. My Problem is even when we have deleted the spammer SPEWS did not remove 3 C blocks of our IP's..

SPEWS = Spam prevention Early warning system.

That means they will keep you listed until they feel that your netspace wont spam again. Its called redemption. You want to clear your name with SPEWS, keep your netspace clean. They will delist you once they dont receive spam in their spam traps; or receive any spam that references any domain, ip, or email drop box in your netspace. Networks have gotten out of SPEWS in a matter of days; some networks have taken months. Some are forever blocked.

This is not to bad of thing sure i could move it to anther C Block but why should if i did what was needed and got the spammer off our network? I mean we have 4 /20's IPs are not a thing for us. My problem is that maybe spews should re-think or better the system really or make it easier for real company to get removed..

The system works. The only people who complain about spews are those who took their sweet ol ass time in responding to complaints. OR, affected by SPEWS because their Upstream provider wishes to keep a spammer on their networks in favor of their legitimate customers.

If you receive a complaint today, people expect that you will act on that complaint today. NOT 2 1/2 weeks later (or like other networks, dont act on them at all). Or wait till you are listed at Spews in order to act on those complaints.

Here is a letter from one of the other owners here to anther member on google.. I think he puts it in word very good..

I guess my big gripe with the anti-spam community is that you all seem to hurt the hosts more than the spammers. There are tons of people like me out here trying to make a living who want nothing to do with spam. 99% of our customers are just normal people with websites.

And 99% of us are tired of the lackluster, money grubbing ISP' webhosts who rather do business with spammers in favor of their "customers with normal websites".

We are not to hurt hosts; we are here to let them know that we are tired of them doing nothing. If they dont want to do anything about the crap they support by supporting spammers, then we dont want their traffic.

If you want to hurt the spammers you should re-evaluate your methods and think about educating the general public. Don't buy products advertised in UCE, don't patronize businesses of people sending UCE. Period.

Oh easier said than done.
Come on, its stupid to think that you can convince anyone to "not buy" something they see in an advertisement.

You see all the healt hscares about fad diets; there's alwasy something in the news abut them. BUT people STILL buy them; fall for them etc. So no matter the "education" people are still going to do it.

There is all that education about smoking; PEOPLE still smoke
There is all that education about drinking and driving; WE STILL have people who will drink then drive.

You can educate all you want. In the end, we can't control what people do.

The ONLY way to hurt spammers, is to complain to their providers. IF their providers do nothing, then we hurt the providers. Simple.

So far, sites like SpamHaus and SPEWS have only been successful at one thing,,, hurting the business of legitimate webhosts like us. For every spammer they have stopped,, they've probably caused 10 well-intentioned hosts to lose their backbones causing devastating financial damage to what may be a reputable and honest hosting outfit.

Yet there are hosts who seem to NEVER get listed in SPEWS and are doing fine? So you wanna try and tell ME; tell US why they can do it, BUT YOU can't?

They must be doing something right.

Let me give you an example of something.. tell me what you think.
SPEWS has blocked email on a server containing the IP 65.57.225.2. this is a virtual IP used for the whole server and also used by about 400 customers. Out of those 400 customers one of them was a spammer (Ernesto I think?). Out of those remaining customers... 3 sites were charitable non-profit sites. One was for a homeless shelter in California that I personally built and donated the hosting space for at no cost to them. ...2 more were high-school sports sites. 1 was a real-estate school in Orlando here, I built for a friend of mine and yet another was for a local Jujitsu school that I built for another friend who is also my Jujitsu instructor and a truly great man.

,, not to mention the other 390 or so other sites and people affected by the SPEWS list who DO NOT SPAM. Now in your honest opinion,, you tell me ,, who did this anti-spam organization hurt?... the spammer?,, my business?,,, innocent bystanders?

You're still not understanding hte BIG picture

If 399 of those are legitmate customers, yet 1 spammed, and YOU received 200 complaints about that one, and ACTED on them by kicking off that 1 and replaing that 1 with another 1 legitimate customer, you wont get blocked by SPEWS. You wont even get blocked by private lists.

YOU'RE problem was you had a spammer, YOU GOT complaints, YOU IGNORED those complaints, YOU GOT bl'ed because you did nothing about your spammer and YOU ONLY acted on those complaints when you were finally listed.

DID YOU explain that to the 399 other customers? That you did not act on valid complaints about that 1 spammer so that is the reason why your ip got listed?

Tell, me you WERE really that honest right?

I honestly think that very little thought is given to these circumstances when people support stuff like SPEWS. If people knew who they were really hurting,, they may think twice and simply delete the unwanted email. You know as well as I do these spammers will simply move on to the next host etc, etc...

Oh a lot of thought HAS been put into it, because SPEWS has seen the errors done by MAPS and the now defunct ORBS. They wont be making the same mistake as they did.

We know who we are hurting. We are hurting those isp's and webhosts who rather do business with spammers.

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by allera

Because it is flawed. Whether or not you agree is what this whole thread is about, but I believe they are flawed.

Of course their system is going to "work" -- they block so many IPs they're bound to get all the spammers. Unfortunately, in the process, they block the wrong people as well.

I can start a HURLS.org, have everyone start emailing us their spam complaints, not bother verifying or documenting them, start blocking IPs and domains left and right, and have people that use our list rave and glorify it. But why would people use HURLS.org when they have SPEWS.org?

another classic example of someone who doesn't know how spews works

They dont list a domain or ip for no reason. They have reasons for listing and because they know people use their list, they are somewhat more careful about what and who they list.

http://www.spews.org

Please read what they do before assuming what they dont do.

allera

04-25-2002, 09:15 PM

Originally posted by WizyWyg
They dont list a domain or ip for no reason. They have reasons for listing and because they know people use their list, they are somewhat more careful about what and who they list.
I stand corrected, I just went back to spews.org and found why our IP is listed. I don't think I did anything about it because I didn't know (and still don't) how to take it off. I'm not going to any newsgroup or public forum about this, so if that's the only method, I suppose the block stays.

By the way, there was only one incident (that I know about) where SPEWS contacted us about that spam. There wasn't multiple; there was no second. I only saw one incident listed in SPEWS, too. I don't know how to check for 'multiple' ones that supposedly is the way we get listed...

I still feel it's flawed. Call me ignorant all you want.

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 09:32 PM

Originally posted by allera

I stand corrected, I just went back to spews.org and found why our IP is listed. I don't think I did anything about it because I didn't know (and still don't) how to take it off. I'm not going to any newsgroup or public forum about this, so if that's the only method, I suppose the block stays.

You dont have to post to any newsgroup or forum to get off of spews. You get off of spews if you take care of the problem

If you have a customer spamming, take that customer off your network. If Spew's spam traps do not getting any spam from your network, you're delisted. Its very simple. Take care of the problem and the listing goes away.

What you can do in the newsgroup and unlike Vortech who went about it the wrong way; is POLITELY ask how one can get removed from SPEWS. Give them the case number given to you by SPEWS (or the bouncing email) and they can help you interpret what needs to be done. Going into the newsgroup demanding to be removed will get you nowhere.

What is your spews case number? Its very easy to interpret what needs to be done.

By the way, there was only one incident (that I know about) where SPEWS contacted us about that spam. There wasn't multiple; there was no second. I only saw one incident listed in SPEWS, too. I don't know how to check for 'multiple' ones that supposedly is the way we get listed...

I still feel it's flawed. Call me ignorant all you want.
[/edit] [/B]

Not to say that the above is wrong, but like I stated many times, spews 90% of time will not contact you. Your intial contact is from the complaints. If you didn't receive the complaints, make sure you have a valid abuse address (abuse@ postmaster@ ) or if they are going to your upstream provider, that is probably why you are not getting them. Best consult with your upstream if that is the case. You wont get listed for one complaint, you get listed because you dont answer complaints, dont act on complaints or move a spammer around your netspace.

Poster

04-25-2002, 09:39 PM

Originally posted by allera

Because it is flawed. Whether or not you agree is what this whole thread is about, but I believe they are flawed.

Flawed by what standards? It can only be flawed if they do something different than what they quite openly say they do. The users of SPEWS apparently don't think it is flawed and they like what it does. If not, they would stop using it.

Of course their system is going to "work" -- they block so many IPs they're bound to get all the spammers. Unfortunately, in the process, they block the wrong people as well.

Once again. If the users of SPEWS think it blocks too much legitimate email compared to the amount of spam it catches, they will stop using it. Why do you object to that?

Also, SPEWS catches much less spam AFAIK than many other blocklists do. But they seem to be better at catching the hard-core spammers - often even at the moment they start spamming from a new location.

I can start a HURLS.org, have everyone start emailing us their spam complaints, not bother verifying or documenting them, start blocking IPs and domains left and right, and have people that use our list rave and glorify it.

By all means do. Oh... but you need to understand that you cannot block anything else than incomming mail at your own servers. Neither can SPEWS. It is the users of your HURLS.org that will do the blocking. If you build it like you state, you will get nobody to use it. It is that simple!

Let me put all sarcasm aside for a minute and ask you one simple question. If SPEWS is so flawed, why do so many voluntarily choose people use it?

It is really simple. If you don't like SPEWS, just don't use it.

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 09:50 PM

Originally posted by allera
[B]
I stand corrected, I just went back to spews.org and found why our IP is listed. I don't think I did anything about it because I didn't know (and still don't) how to take it off. I'm not going to any newsgroup or public forum about this, so if that's the only method, I suppose the block stays.

Well if its focalhosting,

http://www.spews.org/html/S322.html

Poster

04-25-2002, 09:59 PM

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 10:09 PM

Originally posted by Poster

You don't know how to take it off? I am going to be talking in general terms here since I don't know your case. But the way to "take it off" is to fix the problem, i.e. stop the spammer, throw him off your network.

The only valid reasons for posting about a listing in NANAE is to 1) possibly speed up the delisting once you have fixed the problem or 2) alert SPEWS about an inconsistency/error in their listing. Please note, an inconsistency is only if they by mistake have listed an IP block that cannot in any way be related to the spamming incident and therefore defeats the purpose of SPEWS.

Poster, you're not helping, you're berrating

http://www.spews.org/html/S322.html

is the case file. Before harping on him, find out why he is listed.

Vortech

04-25-2002, 10:13 PM

Originally posted by WizyWyg

You still haven't addressed the problem here or in NANAE.

You have been asked over many times now:

WHY did it take so long for you to answer your complaints when YOU DID have a problem?

WHY did it take being put on a SPEWS list for you to take action against your spammers?

Simple questions that you have conveniently avoided in answering, and judging my your non-response in NANAE, its seems you take your sweet old time as well in answering any questions, as you do with legitimate complaints.

YOU dont end up in SPEWS for one complaint; You end up in SPEWS because:

1. You dont answer your complaints in a timely manner.
2. You dont act on complaints sent to you in a timely manner.
3. You move known spammers around your netspace in order to avoid block by those who use SPEWS or use their own private DNSBL lists.

And your answers in NANAE is reflective of everything that we can't stand about those who rather do business with spammers.

As for your "show me". Look around the net. LOOK at SPEWS own list. Whatever networks that AREN'T on their list MUST be doing something right? Like answering the complaint emails? Kicking of spammers from their networks quickly. Rather do business with legitmate customers than spammers. Any of these are obvious dont you think?

Lets see here...

You asked
Q: WHY did it take so long for you to answer your complaints when YOU DID have a problem?

A:It never does.. We close all account in under 24 hours after we find out about.. It has been this way for the past year now. I have said this 4 times now.

Q: WHY did it take being put on a SPEWS list for you to take action against your spammers?

A: Damn can you read or what dude.. The person who SIGNED UP never spammed off our network and no one every sent any thing to use telling us we were listed. We got listed because he was a known spammer but no one ever told us we did not find out till we were listed in SPEWS. Once we found out his account was deleted from our system no if ands or buts..

Q: Simple questions that you have conveniently avoided in answering, and judging my your non-response in NANAE, its seems you take your sweet old time as well in answering any questions, as you do with legitimate complaints.

A: I have a BIZ to run i don't have time to worry with you night and day.. You think i sit here night and day waiting for you to post some thing i don't.
You ask about legitimate complaints.. How the hell would you even know have you sent one to Vortech Inc. for a spammer ever coming from our network. If so give me a ticket number if not how the hell do you know how long it takes any one.

Now for this bunch of bull:
YOU dont end up in SPEWS for one complaint; You end up in SPEWS because:

1. You dont answer your complaints in a timely manner.
A: NO ONE EVERY SENT IN A COMPLANT ON THE REASON WHY WE WERE LISTED.. Have you not gotten the point on this yet..

2. You dont act on complaints sent to you in a timely manner.
A: Again how would you know show me a ticket number. There never was a ticket submited to our system about the reason that we are listed for..

3. You move known spammers around your netspace in order to avoid block by those who use SPEWS or use their own private DNSBL lists.

A: WHat the hell ar eyou talking about here..

Now for this one:

That means they will keep you listed until they feel that your netspace wont spam again. Its called redemption. You want to clear your name with SPEWS, keep your netspace clean. They will delist you once they dont receive spam in their spam traps; or receive any spam that references any domain, ip, or email drop box in your netspace. Networks have gotten out of SPEWS in a matter of days; some networks have taken months. Some are forever blocked.

A: My good you are hard of hearing here.. THERE WS NO SPAM COMING FROM OUR NETWORK..

Look at the reason we are listed:
1, 65.57.225.2, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net
1, 65.57.225.0/24, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net / vortechhosting.com
1, 65.57.231.0/24, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net / vortechhosting.com

Ok first of all this site was only on the .225 net block. So this should been the only one listed in a system that is run right it the only one mail could of come from. Is SPEWS not to stop mail?

Now this same spammer was turned off not 24 hours after seeing an email come back because of SPEWS. This was over 30 days ago and the only reason we are listed.. So tell me why its still listed.. BTW SHOW me a damn spam from the amerisys.net from our network you can't do that ether..

You and your 2 ****ing cents again:
The system works. The only people who complain about spews are those who took their sweet ol ass time in responding to complaints. OR, affected by SPEWS because their Upstream provider wishes to keep a spammer on their networks in favor of their legitimate customers.

A: Did you not hear what i said the first ****ing 50 times now.. NO ONE SENT US A GOOD DAMN COMPLAIT ABOUT amerisys.net. GET THE CLUE YET? So how the hell could I respond to some thing we never got. Come up with some thing better.. Our system sends an email back from every support or abuse email. No one ever sent in a somplait on this site. SPEWS just listed us and has kept the listing there even after 30 days. The system does not work.

You Said:
The ONLY way to hurt spammers, is to complain to their providers. IF their providers do nothing, then we hurt the providers. Simple.

A: This will never work.. Untill every gets this and thinks of a great way to stop spam with out hurting the providers but the real spammer it just not going to work.

You Said:
Yet there are hosts who seem to NEVER get listed in SPEWS and are doing fine? So you wanna try and tell ME; tell US why they can do it, BUT YOU can't?

A: Well just read above.. I have allr eady said it 50 damn times now..

You said agian:

YOU'RE problem was you had a spammer, YOU GOT complaints, YOU IGNORED those complaints, YOU GOT bl'ed because you did nothing about your spammer and YOU ONLY acted on those complaints when you were finally listed.

A: Show me the god damn complait you ****ing ass hole. There never was any this has to be 51 times by now.. NO one i mean NO one sent a god damn complaint in about amerisys.net...

You said:
DID YOU explain that to the 399 other customers? That you did not act on valid complaints about that 1 spammer so that is the reason why your ip got listed?

A: god damn. NO ONE EVER SENT US A ****ING COMPLAINT.. If so again i say SHOW it to me. You seem to think some one did.. SHOW IT TO ME THEN.. NO ONE EVER DID.

*************Note please don't take this post the wrong way but you are starting to piss me off here.. for the last time NO one every sent a complaint or else the site would of been removed long ago i can tell you that.*********************

:angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

Vortech

04-25-2002, 10:17 PM

Originally posted by WizyWyg

You dont have to post to any newsgroup or forum to get off of spews. You get off of spews if you take care of the problem

You are full of ****.. The system does not work.. Want to see..
1, 65.57.225.2, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net
1, 65.57.225.0/24, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net / vortechhosting.com
1, 65.57.231.0/24, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net / vortechhosting.com

Well over 30 days of bening removed.. But yet still listed.. Prove me wrong WizyWyg you can't the system does not work.

I think this can go for Poster as well as you seem to be anther nebie here for the anit world.. I want to know how the system really works.. Not this bull you go around saying..

There is proof above the system must not work..

You say fix the problem they remove you.. Spews says they have us listed for amerisys.net. Site was removed over 30 days ago or more why is it still there.. THE DAMN THING DOES NOT WORK.

Poster

04-25-2002, 10:33 PM

Originally posted by WizyWyg

Poster, you're not helping, you're berrating

http://www.spews.org/html/S322.html

is the case file. Before harping on him, find out why he is listed.

Sorry but I believe I made it very explicit that I was not discussing his case in particular. Anyway, my goal was to explain how SPEWS works in general terms so that people can form their own opinion based on that.

As for S322, it is a pretty large file. What part of it is him? If I should say one bad thing about SPEWS, it would be that their evidence files aren't easy to understand - not even to someone with technical knowledge about the Internet.;)

I still don't have enough information to advise him directly. But I can see I missed a point. If he is hurt by a listing of his ISP or the upstream, he should either try to educate his ISP/upstream or move to another location.

allera

04-25-2002, 10:50 PM

So let's see... someone correct me if I'm wrong here:

1) Someone supposedly spams.
2) It finds its way to SPEWS somehow (reported, spamtraps, whatever).
3) They find every single IP/hostname/ISP/anything associated in any way to that spam and block the hell out of it (including full C classes!) Heck, look at my case. I get tired of reading 1/4 way through.
4) They don't say anything to those who got blocked, they just let them figure it out when their users aren't getting the email they are supposed to be. At least, that's how it was with us, and judging by Vortech's post, them too.
5) The host suddenly finds out they are listed on SPEWS and tries to get off, but SPEWS claims the ISP/host didn't do anything about the spam (what spam? Eh?). They claim it by listing the IPs, apparently by the responses here -- again, SPEWS has no tounge and no ear. Just happy fingers.
6) The host is then forced to remove the domain/account/any trace from their system, even if the party is somehow innocent (oh, that can't be proven, there's no one to talk to at SPEWS and I find no copy of the spam, unlike SpamCop's system...).
7) The customer who got dumped is now forced to find another host and hope SPEWS doesn't block them there (because SPEWS apparently follows the domain so that they can't just "be moved around on the network" - brilliant!). Our mail server was followed to our new IP block at the new datacenter we moved to, probably because this one domain still has us in their DNS record. Heck, we may not even be hosting that customer anymore, but we're still in the DNS record (which isn't hosted by us)... silliness.
8) The customer abandons his domain because of the trouble.

I've read through as much of the FAQs as I could stand (they need re-writing, they are horrible), and coupled with the strong pro-SPEWS I read here, this is what I understand happens.

Please point out where I am incorrect. I think you can spot my views of SPEWS' flaws in my sequence above. If not, I'm sorry.

Enter SpamCop. They alert hosts when they get complaints and allow them to respond. They have a great system as far as reporting goes. I don't use them to block spam (if they even offer it), but they give us a fair chance. I don't hear a peep from SPEWS unless it's a bounced email. Not that I remember, anyway, and not from the pro-SPEWS posts here stating they don't contact, they just list.

WzyWyg, I'd be delighted to hear your suggestion as to being removed from SPEWS intelligently. I am not removing our customer (if we still have him -- pretty sure we do) with no proof they even spammed. That casefile has no useful information in it for me -- we are listed on 3 or so lines in the entire thing. I do appreciate your help. :)

We need intelligence here, not bashing and raging. We all are after the same goal, believe it or not. :) I can understand the frustration, but come on, let's respect each other.

nox

04-25-2002, 10:52 PM

Good, this seems to be losing the nastiness..

I think many people may have issues with the SPEWS community at the place that it is suggested to visit, nanae, as much as they have an issue with the SPEWS system..

The *concept* of SPEWS is great, and I think even the web hosts here posting adversely to the SPEWS reps, agree with this.. we accept why we were listed on one occasion... and fixed that.. but on the only other occasion it was contrary to the representations made here and had to do with SPEWS randomly checking for open relays, uninvited, and making a mistake and then acting on it.. this is not the action of a trusted netizen..

so, just a couple of points that may explain why there is animosity..

wizywig keeps posting that the only way to get listed on SPEWS... well I'll quote him..

-------
YOU dont end up in SPEWS for one complaint; You end up in SPEWS because:

1. You dont answer your complaints in a timely manner.
2. You dont act on complaints sent to you in a timely manner.
3. You move known spammers around your netspace in order to avoid block by those who use SPEWS or use their own private DNSBL lists.
---------

but at the SPEWS web site it says this..

--------
SPEWS identifies known spammers and spam operations, listing them right as they start, sometimes even before they start, spamming.
----------

OK.. where am I misunderstanding?

Also.. from SPEWS web site
--------------
Most, if not all, SPEWS listed spammers know what they are doing, are pro-spam, and have a long history of abuse, some even have criminal records and civil judgements against them. In most cases, attempting to educate these types is a lost cause.
-------------

now anyone reading the SPEWS web site and considering using the list/s may make a judgement about companies listed based on the belief that SPEWS are good guys and wouldn't tell lies..

"Most, if not all..." ??

Is this only referring to Level 1? or does this mean Level 2?

I don't have a problem from being blocked by anyone using SPEWS, so my comments here are not a veiled attempt to have SPEWS do anything for me, nor to have any IP's removed from any private lists, assuming some of those people are reading this.. I am trying to point out that NOT ALL of the people who try to deal with SPEWS are deserving of abuse, and that SPEWS may find that they could further improve their list quality by having the ACTIVE support of the small/medium hosts, rather than altercations of an unproductive nature.. can the SPEWS admins accept that the mistakes they make and brush off with a wave of the hand, claiming " we all make mistakes" is like waving a red flag in front of a small/medium hosting company who makes a mistake, rectifies it, but is expected to take a constant stream of abuse, which when done publicly affects their potential to survive in some cases.. SPEWS can suffer no commercial disadvantage by making a mistake, but a genuine spam loathing web host who makes a mistake may lose part or all of their livelihood if people perceive them as guilty at the hands of the SPEWS supporters..

This could be fixed easily, I agree, but if SPEWS managed their list more visibly and didn't tell little lies about how they gather their info, then people wouldn't feel threatened by a couple of loonies at nanae, who will lock onto the SPEWS cause for their kicks, rather than the true issue of fighting spam..

Also.. maybe you guys could explain how promptly answering spam complaints to smaller hosting companies, as the guys here are, is even remotely similar in overall effect to the spam that comes from yahoo, hotmail, mail.com and a flurry of eastern european and asian servers..

Someone said earlier that these guys aren't 'listed' at SPEWS because they handle the complaints promptly..

OK, I can see how we can chip away at spammers by quickly terminating their accounts and assuring the complainants that this has happened, but compared to the sheer volume of spam from the major networks.. where it continues to spawn from, it is infinitesimal... I actually collect/keep spam sent to all our addresses so I can see any trends.. many people do this of course.. and MOST of the 'hot teen sluts' type come from yahoo or hotmail.. they just keep coming.. I have actually blocked yahoo and hotmail from many of our domains, but this is MASSIVELY inconvenient to do across the board because of the bulk of the users who don't send spam..

So, while some who complain may have a 'little secret' or have been too slack to answer a spam complaint, the actual potential damage to people who are not making money out of spam, but risk having their IP space widely blocked because of a small number of incidents seems to be unfairly balanced and this I think is the main gripe..

I'm sure not all the SPEWS admins condone the participation of some of the idiots that follow their cause, so if we believe that, and ignore them [the idiots] as far as possible.. then maybe the SPEWS admins could just consider that there are some potential allies that they are currently trashing.. and if this is for the good of the community, then I expect it is within their charter to address the issue.. in a polite way.. even this thread may have helped some hosts who were a little less than 100% in their spam management to improve..

allera

04-25-2002, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by Poster
As for S322, it is a pretty large file. What part of it is him? If I should say one bad thing about SPEWS, it would be that their evidence files aren't easy to understand - not even to someone with technical knowledge about the Internet.;)

I still don't have enough information to advise him directly. But I can see I missed a point. If he is hurt by a listing of his ISP or the upstream, he should either try to educate his ISP/upstream or move to another location.

Yes, that is a pretty nasty file. Like I said, I got tired 1/4 way though and started skipping and searching for us. The domain we were responsible for was themeetingspot.com and apparently(?) they spammed porn, which is not what they do. Domain hijacking? Who knows.

We are responsible for the listing, not our ISP. I have no idea if they were contacted about this -- they never contacted me about it. Heck, we even changed datacenters (not because of SPEWS or any other blocks, we moved our location to another city) and it followed us. Look for mail.focalhosting.com and you'll see our information (the little there is). 66.129.95.35 is the current IP.

This is why I gave up. I refuse to talk to SPEWS via a newsgroup. If we remain listed because of it, so be it. Bullheaded? Yes, it is, but I consider that unprofessional.

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 11:01 PM

Originally posted by Vortech

You are full of ****.. The system does not work.. Want to see..
1, 65.57.225.2, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net
1, 65.57.225.0/24, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net / vortechhosting.com
1, 65.57.231.0/24, Ernesto Haberli / Eduardo Warren / amerisys.net / vortechhosting.com

Well over 30 days of bening removed.. But yet still listed.. Prove me wrong WizyWyg you can't the system does not work.

It works. Ernesto is a very well known spammer. Your silent partner has been shown to be a cohort of his. So keeping you and your company in the black hole list is doing the net some good.

I think this can go for Poster as well as you seem to be anther nebie here for the anit world.. I want to know how the system really works.. Not this bull you go around saying..[/b][/quote

Just because we are newbies here, doesn't mean we are newbies to the internet. So instead of attacking him, why aren't you taking care of your spammer problem. You have a lot of baggage to get rid of (namely your silent partner).

[quote]There is proof above the system must not work..

You say fix the problem they remove you.. Spews says they have us listed for amerisys.net. Site was removed over 30 days ago or more why is it still there.. THE DAMN THING DOES NOT WORK. [/B]

IT does work. Since you SAT ON YOU proverbial @$$ to fix the problem. YOU got complaints. YOU ignored them. You got listed. YOU didn't address the problem till YOU were listed.

You have not explained in ANY WAY or offered any REASON why you ignored complaints.

Answer that, and answer it in NANAE. Spews listens there. They would probably like to know as well WHY YOU ignored complaints.

Instead of blaming spews for you listings, you should be blaming yourself for taking so damn long to take care of the problem when it was first addressed to you.

Oh, and I do think it doesn't help your position that your so called company is owned by a co-hort of Ernesto, as proven by your own business records. I suggest that you talk to your "silent" partner about his business practices. Just because he is a "silent" partner as you explained in NANAE, he still has his past that is carried over to your own business.

If someone comits credit card fraud, and was convicted of it, as a Credit Card company would you be so eager to give that person another credit card?

Again, on your CASE,

YOU SAT on a problem.
YOU housed a VERY WELL KNOWN spammer
YOU LIED about not knowing who he is when its shown through business RECORDS that your company is OWNED by a CO-hort of that WELL KNOWN spammer
YOU IGNORED complaints.
And it took a listing on SPEWS for you to finally do something about it.

Vortech networks and hosting can sit in spews till hell freezes over IMO.

WizyWyg

04-25-2002, 11:09 PM

Originally posted by allera

Yes, that is a pretty nasty file. Like I said, I got tired 1/4 way though and started skipping and searching for us. The domain we were responsible for was themeetingspot.com and apparently(?) they spammed porn, which is not what they do. Domain hijacking? Who knows.

From the file:

1, 203.89.235.69, Aussie porn spamhaus / themeetingspot.com
1, 64.239.29.31, Aussie porn spamhaus / themeetingspot.com
1, 66.129.95.35, Aussie porn spamhaus / themeetingspot.com / mail.focalhosting.com
1, 209.208.81.132, Aussie porn spamhaus / themeetingspot.com / mail.focalhosting.com

Currently I have no way to check up on your netblock to see if its YOU or your Upstream who was blocked, and you're sitting in the middle of it, but from the evidence file, it seems that your mail server was used by the Porn spammer.

If you want a better interpretation of it, ask politely in NANAE;
Or I'll post it for you to question. Just ask nicely and people will help you figure it out.

This is why I gave up. I refuse to talk to SPEWS via a newsgroup. If we remain listed because of it, so be it. Bullheaded? Yes, it is, but I consider that unprofessional. [/B]

Sorry, newsgroups are the best way to get information especially those that are dedicated to net abuse. You have to be willing to try and correct the problem in order to get yourself out of spews.

If you dont want to get out of spews, fine, but if more and more isp's use it, and you're still stuck in it without tyring to find out how to get out or why you are in there, then you're going to find more and more people you try to email to will not receive it. Since you're in "webhosting" you may want to explain it to your customers that their email may not get through because you're unwilling to fix a problem and just let it go. They are paying you money to give them connection, you might wanna actually earn that money.

Poster

04-25-2002, 11:51 PM

Originally posted by felix220
I think many people may have issues with the SPEWS community at the place that it is suggested to visit, nanae, as much as they have an issue with the SPEWS system..

True! Some people in NANAE are highly aggressive and that is counter-productive IMO. I guess that is what happens when it is a publicly available forum. However, the worst language still comes from people bitching about SPEWS and other blocklists. Also, some of the aggressive people are actually very knowledgable and if you can discard their insults and harsh language, they might be able to help you quite a bit.

The *concept* of SPEWS is great, and I think even the web hosts here posting adversely to the SPEWS reps, agree with this.. we accept why we were listed on one occasion... and fixed that.. but on the only other occasion it was contrary to the representations made here and had to do with SPEWS randomly checking for open relays, uninvited, and making a mistake and then acting on it.. this is not the action of a trusted netizen..

I don't know where you got that from. SPEWS is not a list of open relays.

-------
YOU dont end up in SPEWS for one complaint; You end up in SPEWS because:

1. You dont answer your complaints in a timely manner.
2. You dont act on complaints sent to you in a timely manner.
3. You move known spammers around your netspace in order to avoid block by those who use SPEWS or use their own private DNSBL lists.
---------

but at the SPEWS web site it says this..

--------
SPEWS identifies known spammers and spam operations, listing them right as they start, sometimes even before they start, spamming.
----------

OK.. where am I misunderstanding?

Nothing really. It is both ways. The FAQ does actually mention that. I do admit that the FAQ needs some work. I've suggested that in the past, too.

now anyone reading the SPEWS web site and considering using the list/s may make a judgement about companies listed based on the belief that SPEWS are good guys and wouldn't tell lies..

Well, it is all about trust. Some people choose to trust SPEWS. I have seen nothing that would suggest that they tell lies. And what would they gain, anyway? They would loose their users and the system would not work.

SPEWS can suffer no commercial disadvantage by making a mistake, but a genuine spam loathing web host who makes a mistake may lose part or all of their livelihood if people perceive them as guilty at the hands of the SPEWS supporters..

Remember that SPEWS also has no advantage by telling lies. Again, it is all about trust.

This could be fixed easily, I agree, but if SPEWS managed their list more visibly and didn't tell little lies about how they gather their info, then people wouldn't feel threatened by a couple of loonies at nanae, who will lock onto the SPEWS cause for their kicks, rather than the true issue of fighting spam..

What lies? Please elaborate.

I do agree, however, that it would be nice if SPEWS were more precise about their delisting process in particular. I don't think they gain anything from not telling about it.

Also.. maybe you guys could explain how promptly answering spam complaints to smaller hosting companies, as the guys here are, is even remotely similar in overall effect to the spam that comes from yahoo, hotmail, mail.com and a flurry of eastern european and asian servers..

Oh but a lot of the spam you receive from asia do in fact come from the well-known spammers of the American continent as well as the European.

Also, SPEWS has never aimed at listing every spammer or spam supporter in the world. So I don't think you have an argument there at all.

I actually collect/keep spam sent to all our addresses so I can see any trends.. many people do this of course.. and MOST of the 'hot teen sluts' type come from yahoo or hotmail.. they just keep coming.. I have actually blocked yahoo and hotmail from many of our domains, but this is MASSIVELY inconvenient to do across the board because of the bulk of the users who don't send spam..

I disagree that Hotmail is a major source of spam. While spammers often use fake Hotmail addresses in the headers, almost none of the spam I receive (and that is a lot) has been sent via Hotmail.

So, while some who complain may have a 'little secret' or have been too slack to answer a spam complaint, the actual potential damage to people who are not making money out of spam, but risk having their IP space widely blocked because of a small number of incidents seems to be unfairly balanced and this I think is the main gripe..

I truly don't understand that kind of arguments. You should concentrate on whether the companies that SPEWS does block are spammers or not. What difference does it make that SPEWS doesn't block all spammers in the world?

I'm sure not all the SPEWS admins condone the participation of some of the idiots that follow their cause,...

Perhaps not. But who knows? Since SPEWS don't speak in public, they don't speak to their supporters either.

nox

04-26-2002, 12:56 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The *concept* of SPEWS is great, and I think even the web hosts here posting adversely to the SPEWS reps, agree with this.. we accept why we were listed on one occasion... and fixed that.. but on the only other occasion it was contrary to the representations made here and had to do with SPEWS randomly checking for open relays, uninvited, and making a mistake and then acting on it.. this is not the action of a trusted netizen..
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know where you got that from. SPEWS is not a list of open relays.

That's what I believed also.. but we had an IP listed at SPEWS, which was removed after getting some of our network engineers who work with many of the BL's and antispam people, to somehow get the message across that there was no spam involved.. now if there were spam complaints for mail using this IP I don't recall ever seeing them.. so via a SPEWS list user who is obviously close to SPEWS admins, we had the IP removed after they admitted it was included because they tested port 1080, but didn't bother checking that it could not have been used as a relay.

So howcome we were on, then after an apology and action we were removed..? This is a fact not fiction, so when you say that the SPEWS list does not rely on such things you are wrong.

Also, we have an IP still on SPEWS and this was put there because of the spam from a client of a reseller.. this account has long gone and in fact the particular reseller knows that if he brings any more spam to us he is also gone.. actually he is no longer a reseller as he has moved up to his own server, but we will still have to manage the Class C he has if he hosts another spammer..

This is a case of the use of an IP which is shared by many being listed.. I can't really complain about it, but having nuked the actual spammer I'm not sure how long we have to wait to see the IP released.. but I am actually not asking for help here, I am keen to see SPEWS at work, which means that it should drop off the list when no more spam complaints emanate from that IP, that aren't handled.. there haven't been any complaints sent our way for spam for quite a while happily.

Just for the record.. I actually reported the prompt nuking of the spammer responsible at nanae.. i just checked, it's still there, on Jan 23 2002.. now no spam has come from this IP and the actual SPEWS listing shows the information I gave publicly.. but I perceive that because of the history and argument with a nanae psycho, the IP remaisn listed.. so SPEWS works if you don't piss a nanae member off.. I hope I'm proved wrong.. :)

Also, SPEWS has never aimed at listing every spammer or spam supporter in the world. So I don't think you have an argument there at all.

Of course it can't.. but the general spirit of SPEWS is one gleaned from the language used on the SPEWS site and the general attitude of many at the newsgroup... and that is to report and list known spamming instances... in an aggressive and effectual way.. I understand about the forged headers by the way, but still spam comes from the majors.. spam to me is basically anything that is aimed at me that is obviously bulk and not personal, and not asked for.. even use of hotmail and yahoo as REMOVE list addresses is just as bad because volumes of people fall into the trap of believing it and unwittingly contribute to further abuse by sending to an anonymous and temporary address..

Well, it is all about trust. Some people choose to trust SPEWS. I have seen nothing that would suggest that they tell lies. And what would they gain, anyway? They would loose their users and the system would not work.

because they are invisible and unaccountable, it is easy for people to suspect that their influence among those who use the SPEWS list *could* be used in isolated instances for improper reasons.. I mean listing particular blocks for even a short period of time could easily cause a loss of substantial proportions to certain individuals.. but in the plan of things may not be noticed by the vast majority of the internet.. so trust is correct.. if the possibility that any personal attack could be made by SPEWS admins, then of course people will get jumpy.. and when this is viewed in the context of some of the comments made by some SPEWS fanatics about blocking IP netblocks as and when they wish, then it is a valid concern for those who don't spend so much time on spam...

ok if they don't tell lies then why are you saying that the criteria for inclusion on a SPEWS list is limited to certain events, written here a number of times, yet there is evidence that other methods are used as reference.. if this isn't lies then maybe it's just confusion and misinterpretation.. how so?

I made the fatal error of arguing with a nanae member, and it was nothing short of trading insults at one point, because my initial comments were made out by one person to be lies and nonsense.. they weren't, but in a public place it's very hard to have someone accuse you of falsehoods and be incredibly smug and abusive, and you not want to retaliate.. however I am now more aware of the number of bull****ters who visit the newsgroup and feign indignance [such a word?] who are full of it..

and these things are only relevant because in a guarded way, SPEWS points to that place as the only remote hope of contact, albeit indirect..

WizyWyg

04-26-2002, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by felix220
That's what I believed also.. but we had an IP listed at SPEWS, which was removed after getting some of our network engineers who work with many of the BL's and antispam people, to somehow get the message across that there was no spam involved.. now if there were spam complaints for mail using this IP I don't recall ever seeing them.. so via a SPEWS list user who is obviously close to SPEWS admins, we had the IP removed after they admitted it was included because they tested port 1080, but didn't bother checking that it could not have been used as a relay.

So howcome we were on, then after an apology and action we were removed..? This is a fact not fiction, so when you say that the SPEWS list does not rely on such things you are wrong.

As with everything else in the world, the list is maintained by a human being. They look at what falls into their spam traps, they submit complaints. IF they see an open relay, they submit it for testing. That's what most admins to of their systems.

Just think of SPEWS as another Isp/webhost who monitors the traffic that flows into their netspace. They just happen to have to have spam traps all over the net however and what falls into those spam traps, they track, they follow up, they send in complaints, they report and they wait. If they dont get an answer or send in numerous complaints without anything being done, like an admin at any other webshot/isp, they post that offending space in a block list. If they see an open relay, the hand it over to osirusoft to test ; to ORBZ to test, and any other system that test these relays.

As stated, SPEWS has listed some ip's in error, but once someone mentioned it in NANAE without all the slander, bitchiness and cartooney legal threats, those who were listed in ERROR are delisted. Most within hours of their posting ot NANAE.

So, can you blame someone for making a mistake? I doubt you go a day without making one. SPEWS doesn't have to apologize to anyone for any mistakes they make. SPEWS howevers does REMOVE listings when they know its in error, or if the offending party has done something to correct their problem with their servers; whether it be a spammer, and open relay, or hosting a drop box for a spammer; or hosting a website for a spammer.

Also, we have an IP still on SPEWS and this was put there because of the spam from a client of a reseller.. this account has long gone and in fact the particular reseller knows that if he brings any more spam to us he is also gone.. actually he is no longer a reseller as he has moved up to his own server, but we will still have to manage the Class C he has if he hosts another spammer..

SPEWS will remove your block from its list once it feels that that particular block of your netspace will not spam again. HE is however STILL on your network despite that he allowed spamming to go on without correcting it. Why did you just not asses a clean up fee and boot him off your network? Or is his $$$$ much more important to you than having your networks free so that SPEWS doesn't touch you?

IS he worth keeping on your network and have you remain in SPEWS? Is it worth to the rest of your legimate paying customers who dont spam or have customers who spam? Care to explain to these customers why you are in spews because of this one person?

This is a case of the use of an IP which is shared by many being listed.. I can't really complain about it, but having nuked the actual spammer I'm not sure how long we have to wait to see the IP released.. but I am actually not asking for help here, I am keen to see SPEWS at work, which means that it should drop off the list when no more spam complaints emanate from that IP, that aren't handled.. there haven't been any complaints sent our way for spam for quite a while happily.

Kick off that reseller completely, out of your network, out of your netspace; hell off the net entirely. He surely wont be missed by us and Im sure you can find someone else to fill his shoes quickly who will actually be careful this time. You'll get delisted real quick.

Of course it can't.. but the general spirit of SPEWS is one gleaned from the language used on the SPEWS site and the general attitude of many at the newsgroup... and that is to report and list known spamming instances... in an aggressive and effectual way.. I understand about the forged headers by the way, but still spam comes from the majors.. spam to me is basically anything that is aimed at me that is obviously bulk and not personal, and not asked for.. even use of hotmail and yahoo as REMOVE list addresses is just as bad because volumes of people fall into the trap of believing it and unwittingly contribute to further abuse by sending to an anonymous and temporary address..

Okay, let me just address a question to yOU and everyone else on this thread,

HOW IS the way SPEWS handling the way it handles a block list no different than ONE admin of a network sharing his or her list with another ADMIN? And that Admin passing that list onto another admin? And so on and so forth?

Guys, this happens. SPEWS is just one list..WHAT about all the other DSNBL's out there? Those are the ones you should be concerning yourself with. SPEWS is just one list. ONE list that happens to be used by many, but YOU can get off of SPEWS. What about lists that yOU dont know about that you will never get out of?

I have yet to see someone complain about other block lists; or privately owned block lists; or block lists that are shared by several different networks that has nothing to do with spews. There is no way to know HOW They reason to put your netspace in their block lists, so are you going to bitch and moan to them to "remove you" cause you no longer have a spammer, or are you going to be level headed and find out why you were listed in the first place?

(damn message lengths - continued in next post)

WizyWyg

04-26-2002, 01:40 AM

because they are invisible and unaccountable, it is easy for people to suspect that their influence among those who use the SPEWS list *could* be used in isolated instances for improper reasons..

Again, what would be the point to USE SPEWS if they keep lists that are flawed? Erroneous and never corrected. People will start to look at the list and wonder "hey, something IS wrong". Ever stop to think why SO MANY do use SPEWS?

I know several admins who USE SPEWS on TOP of their own private lists.

Many use SPEWS because it has a higher chance of being correct. That its updated usually everyday with new information.

SPEWS doesn't do it for money. It has nothing to gain from people using their list. NO one pays to use their list. So, what good would it do for their list if there is something wrong with it?

Hm...maybe because nothing IS Wrong with it? Maybe all this whining from admins about their netspace is just displaced blame when they should be wondering what they did wrong instead of looking to blame others?

Reminds of that mother who is trying to sue Video Game companies because her son took a shotgun and took his own life because he was "addicted" to Ever Quest. She blamed the manufacturer of that video Game for her son's death.

Then again, she "never" noticed that he had a social problem. NEVER noticed that he was proven to have a mental problem. NEVER noticed that him being locked in his room for 16 hours out of the day and quitting his job in favor of a game was a sign that maybe something was wrong WITH him?

We all turn a blind eye to all the bad things, especially if its things that we dont want to admit to that WE are at fault for.

Instead of blaming others, why not find out what went wrong? Why you were listed in SPEWS (or any other block list) and find ways to correct it, fix the problem and make sure it doesn't happen again.

I mean listing particular blocks for even a short period of time could easily cause a loss of substantial proportions to certain individuals.. but in the plan of things may not be noticed by the vast majority of the internet.. so trust is correct.. if the possibility that any personal attack could be made by SPEWS admins, then of course people will get jumpy.. and when this is viewed in the context of some of the comments made by some SPEWS fanatics about blocking IP netblocks as and when they wish, then it is a valid concern for those who don't spend so much time on spam...

IF the problem was taken cared of in the first place; if they did not ignore the complaints; if they secured their servers and made sure it could not be exploited; and had IRON clad AUP's and TOS and enforced them, maybe we wouldn't need lists like SPEWS.

But that's in a perfect world
THIS world runs because of $$$$$$$$$
and if the spammers can pay the most, and the companies dont mind losing a little netspace for it, they will side with the spammers.

What SPEWS and other block lists are doing is showing that spammers are NOT worth any amt of $$$$$$$ that they do pay, and the more netspace are blocked, it'll be a cut in finances and a nice wake up call that "WE wont accept their crap" anymore.

ok if they don't tell lies then why are you saying that the criteria for inclusion on a SPEWS list is limited to certain events, written here a number of times, yet there is evidence that other methods are used as reference.. if this isn't lies then maybe it's just confusion and misinterpretation.. how so?

Ther are other ways to get into spews. As I kept on listing, those are the most COMMON ways. If you talk to anyone in NANAE, they will simply reitterate those common ways to you. If you end up in spews, its a good chance that you failed somewhere along those three I keep on suggesting. IF you really want to know other ways into getting into SPEWS, I suggest posting in NANAE.

I made the fatal error of arguing with a nanae member, and it was nothing short of trading insults at one point, because my initial comments were made out by one person to be lies and nonsense.. they weren't, but in a public place it's very hard to have someone accuse you of falsehoods and be incredibly smug and abusive, and you not want to retaliate.. however I am now more aware of the number of bull****ters who visit the newsgroup and feign indignance [such a word?] who are full of it..

Ever heard of biting your tongue and filter out that person's posts? New to USENET? YOu dont have to answer to anyone in a newsgroup.

Just present your facts. DONT lie, because information can be found quickly. Dont know what kind of information can be found on you? Google has a nice search feature that you can use. Post your company's name in the search field to find out how many times you've been posted on the newsgroups. Then that way you wont get "mad" if someone tries to refute what you say.

Here is an example from our friend at Vortech Hosting:

Google Group Search: Vortech Hosting in Newsgroups NANAE and NANAS (http://groups.google.com/groups?as_q=Vortech%20Hosting&as_ugroup=news.admin.net-abuse.*&num=100&as_scoring=d&hl=en)

and these things are only relevant because in a guarded way, SPEWS points to that place as the only remote hope of contact, albeit indirect..

Just be glad that THEY do look at Nanae. They dont have to, but they do.