OK, Hi all

This is a bit of a pain to have my first post to be a bit of a gripe, but this is to detail a problem I and my business partner had with the search for a 'dedicated server'. I use the quites cause it seems that those words mean different things in different places, anyway, on with the gripe, and again, Hi to all.

*sorry, this is gonna be a long one.. cause Im a bit ticked off as well as my business partner being a reasonable amount out of pocket for no good reason*

The requirements for the system we were looking at using were as follows;
* a dedicated linux server with a fast processor, a generous amount of RAM and a decent sized hard drive.
* the capacity for the server to be re-configured as required for applications and programs to be installed to be correctly configured to allow development of the project.
* Decent net connection, and capability to handle domain registrations so that the DNS service to be set up on the servers would be able to be accessible.


Rack Shack, upon reading of the web site, did NOT show anything that would have indicated that these aims were not easily accessible. A search of all the site that I undertook said nowhere that their dedicated servers were unable to be re-configured as required (if they needed re-configuring), and the wording of dedicated server to me (and it wasnt explicitly contra-indicated by anything onthe site that I was able to find) indicated that essentially it would be a linux server with a network connection, and able to be re-worked as required.

What happened was as follows upon the initial lease of the machine.

I had a look at the ensim front end, it appeared to be merely a web based front end for a Server, handy, but nothing I required, so I logged into the server using a SSH connection and went to see what was there.

Initially it appeared that there would be a problem with the partitions and mount point sizes, so I attempted to load fdisk to alter these. This was looked at as a bit of a risk, because the first thing I saw upon logging in ( I assume a login message) indicated that any changes to the file system of server would void any support requirements on the part of the hosting company.

The fdisk cfdisk and any other partitioning utilities were not available, nor were many other generally accessible UNIX tools that I would have expected to be available on a dediated server. Over all of this, the initial login message was still making me very nervous (that about voiding any support if any changes were made) so I attempted to contact my business partner in order to postpone the purchasing of a second server until the apparent dilemma was rectified one way or the other.

I was then contacted, with the Rack shack support number, by then I had created (using the ensim front end) a domain to see what was the format that the machine was using, because by this time I was becoming more and more convinced that this was a web hosting appliance, not an actual server due to the fact that the whole framework was such that it compelled creation of a number of things in not standard locations, for instance, over 35Gig of the 40 Gig available was on the partition and mount point of /home, while the other mount points (/ and /var from memory) were in total the other 5 Gigs, and were actually being reported as mounted from other hard drives (it listed three hard drive devices, one for /, one for /var and one for /home).

This posed huge problems as most of the development I needed to do were tied to /var and its space was severely limited.

I addressed this issue with customer support, and then technical support with Rack Shack, and eventually was informed as follows of the options available to me in developing the system as envisaged by yourself and I.

1. upload via FTP the various utilities I required from the Linux OS to the system and re-partition the machine as required, it was emphasised that not only would this action void any support from the Rack Shack support personnel, but it was also thought by their technical support person I was speaking to that it may prove to not be a viable solution because of the structure (both software and hardware) of the ENSIM machine, which I had by now discovered was in fact designed to be a hosting machine not a true server.. similar to the cobalt Raq's.

2. write off the investment in purchasing the two servers, because they were essentially not designed or suited to the type of development that was required by us.

I then held a discussion with a support supervisor, in an attempt to at least get back any expenses to date, as there had been no indication on the web site that the servers would not suit our needs, and there was no specific information provided on their site, that would have indicated the types of machines that they were, which if it had been available I would have known that the machines would not have been suitable. This was refused on the basis that even if the information was unavailable, that the terms and conditions of use made no discrimination of their servers being fit for the purpose to which we required, but that they had a no refund policy, also despite the fact that our 'ownership' of these servers had been for 24 and 48 hours.

Personally I find this attitude and approach completely distasteful, especially as there was no specification of a technical nature of these servers on their web site, that I was able to find, that would have enabled what I would consider to be an informed opinion of the servers suitability of purpose.

I totally agree with you. I signed up because I wanted a dedicated server, not a web hosting appliance. There was no indication that it would be otherwise. They do not offer a dedicated server without a control panel, nor do they offer alternative operating system installation. Ensim and Plesk both seem to convert a server into a web hosting appliance. There was no way I could have known that without actually having access to one of these servers. I wanted something like WebHost Manager/CPanel, which is more like a web-based frontend for a server. Many of the generally available UNIX tools were not installed, and many things were installed in non-standard locations. After using the "dedicated server" for one day, I realized this isn't what I wanted. I tried to get a refund, but they wouldn't give me my money back. I understand not granting a refund if the servers were built specifically for me, but they weren't. The servers were already there. It costs no more than the price of a restore, which I was willing to pay, to put the server back up for sale. All I wanted was the rest of my money back. They still wouldn't let me have a refund. Since I agreed to a contract that specifically stated no refunds would be given for any reason regardless of use, I screwed myself out of $500.

I guess if I were in your shoes, having shelled out the setup fees and not being able to figure out how to get the machine into the configuration that I wanted (though, a search of the RackShack message system shows that, at least, one ingenius fellow has successfully done this) I too would be disappointed.

But... the comments that nowhere on the website does it state that the machine is a "web appliance" throws me off..

quoted from front page of rackshack.net in describing their Ensim offerings..

"AMD DURON 1GHz
512MB RAM
20GB Hard Drive
Ensim WEBppliance LS 3.0"

I guess the word "WEBppliance" could have misled you, but it seems pretty clear to me.

Ensim is also a well used front end and if I'm not mistaken, their website has a discussion system also that would have allowed you to research whether or not you could do what you wanted to.

Now, you're disappointed and want your setup fees back, where RackShack has set you up with a machine, they are supposed to violate their clearly stated TOS and refund your money?

I guess I'd be disappointed, probably more at myself for not doing my footwork to make sure what I was getting was exactly what I needed/wanted. I don't know whether or not I'd dig out a message board specifically aimed at the business end of servers and make my first post a bash against the company in question.

From everything you stated, RackShack held up their end of the bargain completely.

Just my $.02, not meant as a flame..

Shortness

I wanted a dedicated server for the purpose of providing web hosting, not a web hosting appliance. I signed up for the "Plesk Server Administrator" dedicated server package, so the "WEBppliance" argument doesn't apply in my case. They clearly use the words "dedicated server" on many pages. Anyway, that's not the point. I'm much more disappointed in the control panel software and in myself than in RackShack. I just wish there was some way to know how the control panel software would work internally and how other software is setup internally without having to waste money to find out. I have other reasons for wanting my money back from RackShack, but that would be off-topic for this discussion.

Thanks for your very honest response. Understood, frustration is a #itch...

Without trying to take this issue further, we could debate the term "dedicated" versus "web appliance" all day. Bottom line is, if you are the "owner" of the box, meaning that you decide who is on it and it's not shared webspace on a server, then regardless of what controls it, total command line or some sort of interface, it's still a dedicated server.

I can state with clarity and truth, despite all I've written above, I'd be TOTALLY disatisfied with either the Plesk or the Ensim GUI. Not because I want to run the box from the command line, but because I'm comfortable with the Cobalt system, have learned a lot of work-arounds and have the box running well.

I know a lot of people jumped off their RaQ's and into the Ensim/Plesk lineup and now are not as "cozy" with the interface. From what I can see, the setup is totally different. All three quirky in their own way but the Cobalt has been around a lot longer and more people seem to know their way around the "quirks"...

I'm still on a RaQ partially because I'd just moved there when they started the new server offerings and did not particularly want to spend the setup again but mostly because I looked at the CP of the other two GUI's and did not like it. I also read how different they operated and for sure did not want them.

All of the above aside, I just don't think it fair to imply that RS has misled anyone on their policy. They are pretty clear that they don't give refunds. Especially for "window shoppers" which is exactly why they have such high setup fees.. or one of the main reasons anyway.

Shortness

I can't see why it is so hard to do a little research on a server you plan to order. Rackshack lists all details for the servers as well as links to a demo for the control panels.

Both control panel sites provide additional info as well as public forums.

The control panel demo only shows how it works externally. You can't judge a book by its cover. The only way you can judge a book is to borrow it or purchase it and then read it. Plesk looks fine externally. I just hate the way it handles things internally. There was no way for me to know that before ordering the dedicated server package. As Abbaddon said, "There had been no indication on the web site that the servers would not suit our needs, and there was no specific information provided on their site, that would have indicated the types of machines that they were, which if it had been available I would have known that the machines would not have been suitable." That's what I agree with. Anyway, I'm not blaming RackShack for that. What bothers me about RackShack is they don't offer a solution to this problem. They don't offer custom partitioning or operating system installation. Anyway, like I said, I have other reasons for not liking RackShack. Also, if you noticed, I said I screwed myself out of $500, not RackShack. I just wished they would offer some kind of refund if it's within the first few days because sometimes you really don't know if something will fit your needs until you try it.

Originally posted by Abbaddon
fdisk cfdisk and any other partitioning utilities were not availablelocate *bin*fdisk
/usr/sbin/cfdisk
/sbin/fdisk
/sbin/sfdiskover 35Gig of the 40 Gig available was on the partition and mount point of /home, while the other mount points (/ and /var from memory) were in total the other 5 Gigsdf -H
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda6 39G 2.6G 34G 7% /
/dev/hda1 510M 3.6M 479M 1% /bootThis posed huge problems as most of the development I needed to do were tied to /varYou needed to copy /var to /home/var preserving owners (cp -a) and do 'ln -s /home/var /var'.I find this attitude and approach completely distastefulProbably a leased 'dedicated server' is not what you are after. You may find yourself in better situation if you pre-load a server and send it for co-location.

Plesk is actually free if you only setup 1 domain. You could have tried this first...

*to ShortFork*

I can accept that.. I stuffed up somewhat, but the basis of my assumption (and it was I spose... remembering an old teacher of mine that used to say that to assume made an ass of u and me) was that the ensim was a control panel, not a total structure.

Yep my research could have been more complete, but I did spend a fair bit of time having a look around, and despite the word "WEBppliance" being there, as I said from that and the look I had at the control panel demo it didnt indicate to me that the underlying structure was that different, nor that the login mesage I got when I telnetted in was that if I changed anything of the file structure I would forfeit support on the machine.

I was willing to accept a different structure, if I could have changed it without TOO much trouble (if I buggered things up that is). The thing that perhaps got me goin a little (other than blowing over a grand of my partners bucks) was that the words dedicated server were large, and all the indicators I got were ones that said that I may not have needed to dig further (hard lesson I spose)

This was the bit that gave me such pause when I started getting under the hood so to speak (and why I didnt try what dabystru suggested)

*login message from connection*

Changes to system files may affect your warranty and discharge Ensim from any further obligation to provide customer with warranty services or support hereunder

*to dabystru*

couple of responses to the facts ya posted in your reply

fdisk
bash: fdisk: command not found

dang thing wont let me execute it.. even if it is there ( I may not have used *NIX for a while, but I have a reasonable background in it

df -H
Filesystem Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on
/dev/hda5 3.6G 912M 2.5G 27% /
/dev/hda1 103M 1.6M 96M 2% /boot
/dev/hda7 36G 82M 34G 1% /home

oops my bad.. are all one drive *sighs.. sheesh I need to get more sleep* :eek:

I'm still pretty wary of hacking the file system or using symbolic links cause of the login message.... ah well.. its up to my Partner to an extent, all this IS only for development to alpha, then we build and co-lo servers (Wheeeee :D ), and the only bugger I can blame for anything then *ok ok .. and now too prolly* is ME

Thanks for all the comments, I wasnt meaning to sound quite so irate as it seemed to come out, I was just frustrated as hell, cause I had flown to the states to do some work (I'm in Aus) and I couldnt get done what I wanted and needed to before I had to come back.. damn it...

Thanks again, hope all my posts from now are a lot more constructive (tho, as I said, I wasnt really trying to flame anyone, just get info, or put out there the way it had seemed, to be corrected if I was in error.. heavens knows that happens)

Thanks again

Make sure you have full root paths when trying to execute those files, I know at _least_ fdisk is installed, we used it in the initial drive setups.