Hello,

I have been posting a few months on this forum under a different name.
I run a webhosting company and I am a minor. I know there are lots of other hosting companies who are runned by minor(s), and I have a question for them.

HOW DO YOU FIX THE PROBLEM OF HAVING NO CREDIT CARD, AND NOT HAVING THE RIGHT TO GET ONE NEITHER??

Because that is one of my major problems right now. We're currently working through reselling, using PayPal, and our 'main host' uses PayPal too, so that's called having luck.

But what if we grow bigger and need to switch over to our own server? What if the ISP doesn't accept paypal as a payment method?

How do you guys fix this?

My parents won't let me use their credit card(s), not even if it is monthly, on a regular base.

I really want to know how to take care of this...

Especially people's comments from outside the US, living in a coutry where PayPal isn't supported are welcome!

We ourselves are also living/working in such a country, and we currently withdraw the money we made via PayPal via a bank account in a country where it IS supported, and then transfer it to our account.
... yes indeed, VERY annoying. :bawling:

I'd appreciate any response(s).

4non1m0z

I know how you feel. My parents won't let me use their credit cards either.

Originally posted by 4non1m0z

HOW DO YOU FIX THE PROBLEM OF HAVING NO CREDIT CARD, AND NOT HAVING THE RIGHT TO GET ONE NEITHER??



Depends on which country you live in and its banking laws. You should be able to get a credit card at 16 in some countries, provided that you have a job. You might have to get a secured credit card though, which means that for 6 months you'll have to give them a deposit equal to the amount of your credit limit.

I started working online when I was a minor, and a young one at that... while I often complaiend about the short comings of "under age" status online, I have since realized the problem and reason.....

As a minor you are unable to enter into a legally binding contract on your own, you have limited liability, special working rules and more of your legal responsiblity is controlled by your parents. For this reason many if not most hosts require a credit card as an extra step to help insure all users are of legal age and thus able to agree to their service contract.

With that said, your best idea would be to find an adult, even someone who is just barely 18 to work with. Credit cards are not the only problem you will run into trying to run a business as a minor so having an adult as a partner makes life a lot easier. With that said, you should remember that lying about your age o anyone you work with is not a good thing.... its hard to get around it, i know, but its esential that you remain honest about it and avoid fraud issues.

I'm not sure about this, but have to looked into a joint credit card attached to their account? I mean, you have your own, but if you go over your limit or spend too much, the bank goes after your parents. Why won't they let you use their credit card?

Brian

I use a paypal debit card...I've been a member for almost a year and a half, so I'm not sure if you have to be 18 to get one now or not...

Works pretty nice though..95% of customers pay via paypal, then when I have a bill I just use the same funds from that account to pay for it..AND get 1.5% back...

not to bad

Here's a prepaid credit card from Visa called Visa Buxx. It's marketed for teens.

http://www.visabuxx.com/

my friend has a credit card and he's only 17. I also knew this girl who had a cc when she was 15. i think your parents have to sign to get you one, and your basically using their credit. does anyone know more about this?

The only thing i can think of is that you get a visa buxx and if not that then try to find a friend that has one or a friends parent that will loet you use theirs

Originally posted by TedS
As a minor you are unable to enter into a legally binding contract on your own.

In the US, minors can enter into legally binding contracts. The problem is that if it's not for necessary food, clothing, shelter, or medical care, then it's voidable by the minor.

Which means the contract is legally binding until the minor, for any reason, or no reason at all, before he/she reaches the age of majority, decides to void the contract.

So if you're a minor, feel free to purchase all of the computer games that you want, and then get your money back later. Of course you'll probably have to sue, since the vendor is likely to just look at you funny when you demand your money back.

I would never enter into a contract with a minor.

With paypal, goto shop, click shop anywehre and you ge tvirtual cc number.

How about visa checkcards? If you get a business checking account for your business you should be able to get a visa checkcard that is accepted anywhere visa is and takes the money straight out of your checking account.

IANAL, but I think it's just a matter of time before we see people going to court to get themselves declared "legal adults". I don't think there is any legal precedent; but if a 16 year old was demonstrably mature, I think it would be hard for the courts to refuse.

I considered doing this myself when I was 15, but I was too busy at university... ironically the people who would really benefit from such actions are the people who are likely too busy to pursue them.

I think you should be able to apply for early adulthood.

I don't. You don't qualify as being an adult for acting older, you gain maturity from experience, you can't rush through that.

Lower the adulthood age. Why 18? Our system is messed up you dont have all rights to yor 21. I think that should be lowered to atleast 16 maybe less. Age does not equal maturity, and all expeirnce is not equal.

Originally posted by BrianF
You don't qualify as being an adult for acting older, you gain maturity from experience, you can't rush through that.

Rush through? Perhaps not. But do some people mature faster than others? Certainly.

There are 25 year olds who are hopelessly immature. Many, perhaps even most 21 year olds wouldn't meet any sensible definition of "mature". (I'm at a university full of such people right now....) Does being alive for 21 (or 19, or 18, or 16) years automatically make you mature? Of course not.

One of the most mature people I know is a 16 year old. I'd certainly say that she's more mature than I am, even though I'm four years her senior. Yet I'm allowed to drink/vote/get a credit card/etc while she isn't. How does that make sense?

Good point, but its 1:30AM where I live and I can't really formulate any good argument against or for this issue right now.

Brian

Originally posted by BrianF
Good point, but its 1:30AM where I live and I can't really formulate any good argument against or for this issue right now.

1:30AM? Bah. It's 6:30AM here (Oxford), and I have an out-of-core hash table with in-place gradual resizing to implement before I go to bed.

Originally posted by cperciva


One of the most mature people I know is a 16 year old. I'd certainly say that she's more mature than I am, even though I'm four years her senior. Yet I'm allowed to drink/vote/get a credit card/etc while she isn't. How does that make sense?

cperciva,

I am amazed that you are just 20! reading your posts I thought you had some 10 years of unix experience! [now dont amaze me further by saying you do have that]

Talk about redundancy! [read the fool]

Cheers
Balaji

Originally posted by MotleyFool
reading your posts I thought you had some 10 years of unix experience! [now dont amaze me further by saying you do have that]
Nope, not ten; only seven. I first got involved in unix when I started at university.

Well I'd have to agree that age doesn't equal maturity, and nor does age equal experience. This debate always reminds me of someone I know who was doing job interviews, with one person claiming that they had 20 years experience in the field. They nearly asked him, "Have you had 20 years experience or 1 year's 20 times over?"

Heh cperciva oxford, No wonder you are so smart :rolleyes:

Originally posted by The Laughing Cow
Heh cperciva oxford, No wonder you are so smart :rolleyes:

I think it works the other way... I was in Canada until a few months ago. (OT: I still think I deserved the Rhodes. But some people thought that playing bridge didn't sufficiently demonstrate my athleticism. I think some day after I'm rich and famous I'll set up a series of scholarships which athletes are specifically barred from.)

I dont really know if running a hosting company would be good for a teen. Yeah I know that all these people will say that they are mature enough, and I believe them. The problem is with the contracts.

Example:
I am looking for hosting for my business. I come across a good web host, and sign up. Soon, by business is online and everything is doing great. Now, all the sudden the kid who is the CEO of this business decides that he can no longer run the business.

Now, the problem is, the minor can void any of our contracts that we signed, so therefore, I cannot sue him. He can, techincally, take all the money he made and run (TacidHost....shudder) and have no legal consequences at all. Basically, our legal system works like this. If you are stupid enough to sign a contract with a minor, then you should be robbed.

I dont agree with this at all, and think it is something we should change.

correct me if I am wrong.


Jim

Originally posted by jimb
Now, the problem is, the minor can void any of our contracts that we signed, so therefore, I cannot sue him. He can, techincally, take all the money he made and run (TacidHost....shudder) and have no legal consequences at all. Basically, our legal system works like this. If you are stupid enough to sign a contract with a minor, then you should be robbed.

Hey Jim, the law, or at least precedent says that if the minor voids the contract, he has to return the consideration if he's still in possesion of it. Of course he could have blown it all, or given it away. So he can't really take the money and run. He can take the money, spend it, and run.

That's fair. Right?

I definitely think that minors running web hosting businesses need to notify their potential customers of this fact. Although I'm not sure if they are legally required to.

you know when you are mature when you hold yourself to be accountable for your action

mike

maturity has little to do with legality... a minor isnt bound by a contract and no matter how mature you may be or think you are, as a minor running a business, nothing stops you from running off and using your age as a legal excuse... mature or not, if a minor does something wrong and has a contract, that contract does not count.

also, if your parents arent going to condon or support your business (regardless of the reason), how do you think they'd feel if one day you got sued and they were the ones liable for the damages? just because you as a minor dont pay doesnt mean no one else will get in trouble...

Originally posted by cperciva

Nope, not ten; only seven. I first got involved in unix when I started at university.

You went to university at 13?

Get a credit card on your bank account, under one of your parent's name...

Originally posted by ADEhost
you know when you are mature when you hold yourself to be accountable for your action



Mike, I believe that there are alot of kids who hold themselves accountable for their customers, and who are very successful. I am just pointing out that there are always a few bad people who bring down the image of the good people. TacidHost is a great example of how a kid just up and ran with thousands of dollars from his customers.


Jim

Originally posted by jimb



Mike, I believe that there are alot of kids who hold themselves accountable for their customers, and who are very successful. I am just pointing out that there are always a few bad people who bring down the image of the good people. TacidHost is a great example of how a kid just up and ran with thousands of dollars from his customers.


Jim

Jim you are right, there are those kids that you know that you can deal with, that will be accountable for thier actions. But like the old statement " 1 bad apple spoils the bushel " It affects the entire business mind set.

Now I would like to take this further:

Let's say a host takes a "bad apple" that runs an IRC bot ( w/o the host knowing). somehow this bad apple get's into one of these "wars" that end up in Dossing the server. Whom is going to pay for the dammages. I would have downtime, server outage, bandwidth, .... ( worst part, once a target always a target )
I can not take him to court, I can charge his CC, but there is a high chance that I will get a chargeback. So what do I do? I've effectivly lost all the clients on 1 server, have messages post all around that my servers are down ... more thrashing of my name.

So if you ever come up with a solution in dealing with a Legal minor tell me. I would like to know.


Mike

Originally posted by ADEhost

Let's say a host takes a "bad apple" that runs an IRC bot ( w/o the host knowing). somehow this bad apple get's into one of these "wars" that end up in Dossing the server. Whom is going to pay for the dammages. I would have downtime, server outage, bandwidth, .... ( worst part, once a target always a target )
I can not take him to court, I can charge his CC, but there is a high chance that I will get a chargeback. So what do I do? I've effectivly lost all the clients on 1 server, have messages post all around that my servers are down ... more thrashing of my name.



Thats a risk that a minor has when running his own business. The only way that I see you could press charges, would be if your company was Incorporated or held as an LLC. This way, the director's ages would not matter.


Jim

Originally posted by jimb



Thats a risk that a minor has when running his own business. The only way that I see you could press charges, would be if your company was Incorporated or held as an LLC. This way, the director's ages would not matter.


Jim

yes you are correct in that statement. In the USA, all INC's and LLC can be subject to legal action and also the board of directors depending on the actions they have taken as documenting in the minutes.

Now the real problem is .... how many "kids" have INC'ed thier firms.

Mike

Even if you've incorporated, you can only go after the company's assets themself, not the person that runs the company. That's for protection purposes. Think about it, what if some crazy guy tries to sue you for thousands in lost revenue for a little bit of downtime, he can only go after the company if your incorporated, not the owner of it.

Brian

You can get a Visa debit card through PayPal or if you have a bank account most offer Visa debit cards. Your parents would not have to worry about letting you have a debit card since you can not spend more than what is in your bank account.

Check into the paypal debit card. I got one just for the heck of it but I have never used it. Anyone who excepts Visa credit cards will take Visa debit cards. They work the same.

Originally posted by BrianF
Even if you've incorporated, you can only go after the company's assets themself, not the person that runs the company. That's for protection purposes. Think about it, what if some crazy guy tries to sue you for thousands in lost revenue for a little bit of downtime, he can only go after the company if your incorporated, not the owner of it.

Brian

Dear Brian,
you are incorrect. I have in the past broken the "shield". It's rather easy if you know exactly where to strike and if they have made certain mistakes. The problem is most people think the shield is everything, well they are wrong. that's why you are better off spending $350.00 and have a lawyer draft your corporate papers than the on line service, Why, Because they will explain the process of the "shield " and where the weakness are .

In reference to the idea of a suit based because of down time. the judge would toss it out. Why 99. percent uptime equals 8672 hours of uptime per year. while a year has 8760 hours. Never does any TOS or AUP states that the down time could not happen concurrently. that's one of the industry loopholes.

so if you have 24 hours of downtime and a client tries to sue you, wait till it get's droped and then get your lawyer to file frivolous lawsuit charges for legal and your time ( and your time is worth more than the clients on average ). that will stop them hard in the tracks.

I live in the USA so the odd's of me going to court are high. I don't know how it is any other place.

Mike

Originally posted by ADEhost

I live in the USA so the odd's of me going to court are high. I don't know how it is any other place.




Well, you really can't take a company to a US courtroom if they are based outside of the USA. So, maybe all of the hosts run by minors should move to a country were they could run business:D


Jim

Mike,
Thank's for the feedback. What I heard was basically through other people. I do know someone who was still sued even though he was incorporated. When I do this I want to be protected as much as possible really. Going to court is no fun, costs a TON of money, and wastes your time. Not to mention the amount of stress involved with being sued.

Doesn't LLC stand for limited liability corporation? Whats the difference between that and a type S corp?

Brian

Originally posted by jimb


Well, you really can't take a company to a US courtroom if they are based outside of the USA. So, maybe all of the hosts run by minors should move to a country were they could run business:D

Jim

Funny that you mentioned that. I did some actions and some reasearch on a simular subject within the last 2 years and here is a quick summary:

1) any web host that has a server in the USA is subject to the laws of the USA.

I found out about this due to a copywrite violation I was chasing down and had the offending web site ( web site owner was in swenden, hosting company was in Denmark, servers were in the Virgina. ) remove the text in question once the company in Denmark realized that I was willing to move up to the service provider and have thier entire servers seized, when that happens, the servers are shut down, removed and taken as evidence. you'll be waiting about 2 months till you get them back.

2) if you are a Com, Net, Org and a few others registering via a USA based registra, you can <--( key word ) be subject to suits that might take your name away ... the problems lies that the suit in question must be filed and acted upon not only in the courts of Switzerland but here in the USA.

this is just 2 points, but again there are more.

Mike

Originally posted by BrianF
Mike,
Thank's for the feedback. What I heard was basically through other people. I do know someone who was still sued even though he was incorporated. When I do this I want to be protected as much as possible really. Going to court is no fun, costs a TON of money, and wastes your time. Not to mention the amount of stress involved with being sued.

Doesn't LLC stand for limited liability corporation? Whats the difference between that and a type S corp?

Brian

Let me shoot straight,
this is how my lawyer explained it to me.

LLC is great if you are moving partners in and out, and if you have the different payout to partners, also the c is for company not corp. look here for better information
http://www.inc123.com/limitedliabilitycompany.html

Corp ( C or S ) are good for protection and simplicity.

now how do you protect yourself. the facts are that you have to document a lot with a corp (c or s ) and I really don't want to discuss in an open forum what a person needs to do, I woudl tell you spend the 350 and sit with a lawyer, 350 should buy you at least one incorporation and 1 hour of sit down time with the attorney, Also I would advise that you go to the bookstore and read up about filing paperwork for an INC.

Mike

A bit OT - Ive been looking to set up an LLP (UK) - Out of the 3 of the owners of Box-Host.Net we are all 16 apart from myself (17).
Does anyone know if we need to be 18 under UK law to register, if so is that jst one member or all?