Is there anyone on this board, who can tell us what we are doing wrong? And how we can improve on that? I dunno abt the others, but I would sure like to know how I can improve. Since more and more people are complaining.

kunal,

I don't really think there is a problem with the moderators, I think it's more a problem with the way the forum is laid out. It seems that the unregistered users are at the heart of every flame war that gets started here. Require everyone that wants to post to register first, and send the password to the email address that they signed up with. By leaving the board completely open like it is now, it seems to encourage this type of childish behavior.

I have seen the arguments both for and against requiring people to register. Sure, allowing anyone to post will attract new visitors, but it is driving away some of the best regulars. You have to decide if you want a board with fewer users, that actually try to help each other, or a board with more people that are just hear to cause trouble.

I don't think register required works. For some newbie, or people who just need a quick question, register is very hassle to them. Believe it or not, there are some people don't even know how to register, yeah, calling them idiots? I was one of them. Also, some people just don't want to give out their emails.

Not too many people abuse the guess privilage, as you can see, there are some guests with a very nice questions/comments. So, what do I suggest? I don't know if vB has a function like UBB, as I can see in other board, that allow people to post without register but NOT allow them to reply unless they register, that's it, the ability to post a new topic only. Again, it's not perfect, when that guest wants to reply might post another thread which cause many unneccessary posts, but you moderators can move it to the original one.

Showing IPs is good, it might keep off another member to stop using guest name to attack others (regardless of fake IPs). I agree with it.

Anyway, that's all, my last comment is the admiration to the moderators, they're doing excellent job, even better than sitepointforum at some points :). Thanks

How about just moderating for a change? That means keeping you opinions to yourself and sit on the sidelines until someone gets out of hand? Moderate according to the rules, not just your opinion of someone's post.


And when you post as yourself, you should have a normal nick to post under.....when you recommend hosts you should not be posting as a moderator. Moderators should only post when needed, when a thread is out of control. The rest of the time post as a regular member.

Being a moderator of a site of this kind is a tough, tough job; and often a no-win situation, as some squeaking wheel will always raise rim no matter what one does. (And yes, I speak from experience.)

On the overall, WHT moderators have perhaps erred on the side of leniency at times -- but I'd far rather see them do that, than chop someone off at the knees for no other reason than the comments might offend someone.

As a moderator myself (on other boards), I will say that yes, it is a tough job.

However, when you slide on the rules, it ALWAYS backfires on you.

For example, there is a thread on this forum where someone is obviously advertising their site. Been there for over an hour. It makes it obvious that the moderators are not available right now.

Personally, I would not have two identities, one as a moderator and one as a regular member. There is nothing wrong with a moderator joining in a conversation, in my opinion. If I have something to say, I will say it...in the same way I would say it if I was talking to each of you as a group in a normal conversation.

As a moderator, along with helping people, is making sure the rules are followed. Have a set of rules and make sure they are inforced. If people do not like the rules, go somewhere else. That's all there is to it, cause you can't please everyone. Probably figured that one out. :)

More importantly, moderatorating is more than just moving posts. It is the ability (or the wisedom) to make the right decision at the right time. If you do not have the wisedom to know you are offending someone, or are doing something that is going to come back and haunt you, then you do not need to do it...moderate that is. That comes with time. I see that type of mistake over and over...a moderator will say something that adds fuel to the fire instead of squelching it.

It is good to see that someone did post a thread asking for improvements and is acknowledging there is a problem.

Now, all you have to do is listen and implement some of the things that are suggested.

Small list of suggestions:

1) Get rid of the guest posting. If they can't register, they do not need to post.

2) What happened to the logged IPs? Turn it back on, visibly.

3) Have set rules on what posts should consist of when making a positive/negative post about a company.

4) Do not let posts veer off topic. If it does, move it to another thread.

I wish you guys luck!

1) Get rid of the guest posting. If they can't register, they do not need to post.

2) What happened to the logged IPs? Turn it back on, visibly.



Exactly. Make people stand behind what they have to say. I really would be interested in seeing some of the IP addresses of some of the guest posters. I wonder how many of those IP address would match up with registered users.

Allowing this type of behavior can only lead to the demise of WHT. At one time, I used to be a regular visitor at alt.webmaster. Look at them now. I took a look this past weekend, just to see if things had changed. I downloaded 300 posts, and only about 20 to 30 were actually useful. The rest were adds, flames, off-topic, or just plain weird.

I this were a perfect world, you wouldn't have the need to register. Of course, if this were a perfect world, you wouldn't need moderators either. This is really a decision for whoever owns this board and pays the bills. Decide where you want this board to go, and then implement rules to help it in that direction.

In a way, I hate to see guest posts turned off... though it's looking more and more like it may indeed be needful.

Would it be possible, perhaps, to specially route guest posts so that moderator approval of them prior to entry into the thread would be required?

Originally posted by Tyme
1) Get rid of the guest posting. If they can't register, they do not need to post.

2) What happened to the logged IPs? Turn it back on, visibly.

3) Have set rules on what posts should consist of when making a positive/negative post about a company.

4) Do not let posts veer off topic. If it does, move it to another thread. I absolutely agree with all of these. In reply to Nam's concern that someone might not know how to register, and that he wouldn't have, I'd say that he certainly would have -- because if the board had been set up that way he simply would have been prompted to register when he tried to post. There's nothing tricky or complicated about it.

I suppose the IP display was turned off because that information can be confusing and misinterpreted. True, but having it is still better than not, in my opinion.

Have a set of rules, and apply them similarly. Each moderator now sees things differently; they all should be on the same wavelength. I do think a lot of care has to be taken when a moderator makes a recommendation. Remember that especially for someone new to the forum, that "Moderator" next to your names means what you say has more weight than do the words of any other user.

Do not let posts veer off topic, and don't steer them off yourselves. All of the moderators here post a lot, which is good. But any of them are about as likely as anyone else to take a thread off topic.

I'd add another suggestion, though less important than those and I'm sure less likely to be popular: reduce the number of user categories. For too many people the raison d'etre on this forum is to post enough to "earn" the god rating. It encourages off-topic posts, it encourages "me too!" posts, it simply decreases the signal to noise ratio. Honestly, I read WHT now a lot less than I did a month or so ago because while the number of posts is probably about the same the number that have any value, or have anything to do with web hosting, has decreased. Hey, it can be fun reading, but it's becoming less valuable as a resource.

Deb made some good comments about moderating on this thread:

http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3439

I realize you were all chosen as moderators here because you were active on the board and posted a lot of messages.

That disturbs me...I hope the moderators were not chosen because they have a lot of posts. That is NOT the way to pick a moderator. On these forums, it is nothing to rake up several hundred posts saying nothing. It is NOT the amount of posts, but what is said in the posts they make.

OK here we go. Please bare with me as what is below is a copy and paste from the other thread and then I have some additional thoughts:

Hello,

This is a great Board with valuable and unique content. Iv'e been reading it for a few months and you all should be complimented. I would hate to see it quickly deteriate but in my view you have some issues to correct. I'm sure I may repeat some of the other thoughts in this thread but I think my perspective as a BB owner may help the talented team that runs this BB as well as the members.

I'm not a Host but I do run a Making Money Forum among others which has a huge potential for problems. Over the years Iv'e had to strugle with many of these similar problems and many folks have helped me impliment some "fixes" that work. I would respectfully suggest the following procedures:

1) Eliminate "Guest" posting privilages. That doesn't build Community and only encourages abuse

2) Display IPs. Members will help you catch abusers with this data. Train your Mods to trace these and flush abusers.

3) Eliminate/Ban Free email addresses in your reg procedures. Most of your abuse comes from these places.

4) Put some "teeth" in your TOS and vigirously enforce it.

5) Delay membership posting privileges for 3 to 7 days or review all posts before they go live for a new member.

All of these procedures work for me in one form or another. You will never eliminate abuse but you will dramatically lower it to an acceptable level with these procedures.

Your Community will stick with you. It's worth saving. It's the quality of the posts that matters and not the number of posts.

New thoughts: Running a BB like this is not a science. It's an art so these things work for me and given the fact that we share a lot of issues in common please let me try and answer your question. I don't mean to be harsh or disrispectfull. Just candid and helpfull.

Appropriate management starts with the Admin/Owner. He or she must set an outstanding example and also enforce your rules and guidelines. I have both posted on my BB and can tell you that what you read does happen. Call this "teeth" but a necessary evil to protect the integrity of your Community. I don't get any pleasure out of it. It just has to be done. Period. The Admin/Owner should surround themselves with the "best and brightest." Not only "knowledge" but how they act and exactly what and when they "talk" Everyone in "management" should strive to set an outstanding example with their actions. Very few people fit this description. All moderators should be driven by a passionate desire to help people and "pay back" the Community for all the help they recieved. This motivation is one of the keys to a well run BB.

If Management is percieved as having a "conflict" or biased view then you have a problem. A very serious problem. You can exspect a small number of folks to make this accusation but that's just part of the "culture" The net net is Management needs to "parse" their words very very carefully. Speak from first hand experience and point out the positives and negatives of a partiicular issue.

Please remember I also sell CPM adverts to affiliate companies who have competitors posting in the same thread. Very very volatile sometimes but you need to handle it with an "even hand" and make it crystal clear that sending me a check or joining will never influence the editorial content of the BB. Iv'e even been to court on this issue to defend a members rights in case you think I'm not absolutely 100% serious about this issue.

It's not easy and I often think about an issue before I take action. Generally, Management which includes the Admin and all the Mods should let the Community answer questions and give advice. Let it "run" as I say :) They do jump in to correct errors or speak from first hand experience. They "watch" threads rather then immediately jumping in. Exceptions would be no replies or content that needs another view or in some cases is false.

You need to "take the pulse" of your community. One sure way to do that and get responce is to immediately make your problem forums "read only" and direct the trafic to a thread where everyone can comment. Here is the link for the last time I did this:

http://geekvillage.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000116.html

It was very very helpfull. Painfull at times to see over 2 years of dedication and passion taken for granted but that is just a "culture" issue which doesn't bother me.

I hope this helps and again, my intention is not to be "harsh" but just speak from the heart. Best of luck and if you need my help on a confidential basis please don't hesitate to ask.

Well if someone is going to make an opinion then I would say they should register. I like that someone can't just get my ip like they used to be able to. I love WHT and I think its like a child in a way, you must first teach it displine at a yound age, or when it becomes a teenager and you try to displine it will do no good. Does anyone see where i am coming from. Mods on this posting site, great job all of you deserve a thanks from everyone here, because i dont think people realize the time it takes to be a Moderator.

Remember in the internet world, not eveybody is English speaker. It's your choice, to let this board becomes yahoo-like site or technical site (for webmaster only). For me, regardless the webhostingtalk name, I like to post any question about anything (computer, fun stuff) in general conversation, not just about host. Besides, there are many people who don't want register just to ask one simple question. That's my thought.

People keep arguing that many people don;t want to register for one simple post. Has anyone rememberd what they needed to do to register? They had to fill in their username, password, and e-mail. That's it.

Therefore I will put in a vote for banning guest posting ability.

Look, if you turn the IP's on, anyone who want to be a troll can easily do so by using an anonymizer service, so that point is moot.

Sorry, I should have read the Deb post in the other thread which Tyme referenced.

She said it much better than I ever could. Outstanding thoughts which I can tell you from first hand experience as the Head Geek are worth their weight in gold.

Moderators need training. And that's exactly what they get over in my neck of the woods. Lot's of private discussion on exactly what was done and why. Exstrapalating other cases from posts so the folks can anticipate the next issue. This takes time and patience. Sometimes we even have contrary views which is also healthy.

Yes, Iv'e had a few complaints on displaying IPs and not keeping them private but for gosh sakes, this is a Webmaster centric community and they should know that Ips are not secret and if you have a persistent connection you need a software or hardware firewall ASAP.

Members often use this data to flush imposters/shills which is a serious problem and will dilute the integrity of your Community very quickly. Owners have a powerfull "lever" to enforce your rules and a disuading influence to fight abuse.

Again, these are the necessary evils of running a quality Community like this. Not for everyone but just my views on what works.

Originally posted by Paul_Szymanski
People keep arguing that many people don;t want to register for one simple post. Has anyone rememberd what they needed to do to register? They had to fill in their username, password, and e-mail. That's it.

Therefore I will put in a vote for banning guest posting ability.

... and some people just don't know the difference between arguement and opinion :)

For God's sake, the moderator asked, I answered, what's so annoying about? Don't like it? that wasn't for you.

As I said in another post, we can turn on IPs and someone will request that we hide them, or we can leave them off and someone will want them on. We can also kill the guest posting, but it won't eliminate all the problems.

I would like to add to what The COnfused Moderator said though. I don't see a whole lot 'wrong' per se, but if you do feel free to let us know. What I'll add, is that if you have any suggestion what-so-ever as to any way this board could be better, please post or email a moderator. Things don't always have to be wrong to be better.

Since kunal has opened the door, please allow me to walk in with my arms full. ;)

I would like to point out that these comments refer and apply to Moderators in general. One is mentioned by name have particulars included.

Like most people, I belong to a few (lots?) of Bulletin Boards and notice how the Moderators do/don't Moderate. Just so you know where I'm coming from; I am currently a Moderator myself and have previously been nominated as a Moderator for a board with members in the 5 digits, I also provide Hosting services.

I have gone head-to-head before, with Moderators and sometimes the owner/operator of Bulletin Boards, over the duties and responsibilities of a Moderator. I have taken Moderators to task when they try to pass off things "as the visitors fault" for problems in a Bulletin Board, when in fact, it was lack of Moderation that caused a problem or allowed it to continue. I have also seen numerous Moderators add substantial amounts of "unnecessary verbiage" to postings, and not add anything useful - information wise.

IMHO I believe that Moderators are like Parents. They should be ready, willing and able, to step in "when necessary" but for the most part - to be mostly observers. Moderators can make or break a Bulletin Board and they need to remember that anything they post, is going to have a little more "oomph" than other postings. I also believe that regardless of position, people should be able to relate or describe, personal experiences. That is invaluable information to everyone and more than anything, what people look for.

Other than personal experience, I believe all Moderators should stay away from mentioning a company - for their product or service. Some Moderators defend their postings (referring a company) by saying there have already been lots of posting regarding them. Then why don't the Moderators refer people to the postings? Why do they have to say "I heard so and so about so and so?" People don't come to Bulletin Boards to hear/read what Moderators have to say. They come because they want to hear what other people have to say. Visitors come to Bulletin Boards to interact with "other" visitors and Moderators are not visitors.

Moderators should not be allowed to make postings under any other name than the one that describes them as Moderator! Taking the position of Moderator, means the person willing gives up the right to be treated as a regular Board Visitor. That is part of the drawback of being a Moderator and should be understood.

Many of us are not intimate with the Rules for each Board and should remember not to take it personally when a post is edited or deleted. I just went through this for example, just recently at another Board where BC is also a Moderator - unless of course there is another Moderator with the initials BC. My post was deleted because it contravened that Board's posting policy - it included a service/price I offer. On this board it would not have been deleted as this seems to be OK at WHT (see: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3438 ) I posted a follow up and stated I didn't have a problem with the deletion but felt it was a bit "overboard." (see: http://www.sitepointforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=12131 )

Moderators should all walk the same line. What I really object to, is when a Moderator sees "another" Moderator allowing things to slide, and doesn't step in! I have seen this go on at places and when I asked about it, was told that the other Moderator got there first, and apparently no other Moderators were going to take away control of the thread? Huh? Regardless of who gets there first, Moderators should do what is within their Mandate and if another Moderator has a problem with that, discuss it amongst themselves and in private.

No matter if a position is paid-for or on a Volunteer basis, when a "position" is taken, certain obligations and responsibilities come with that position. Certain rights and privileges extended to regular Visitors, no longer apply to Moderators. As for WHT specifically, it almost seems to be a rule that a Moderator "must" make a post in every thread. This seems very odd to me but maybe I'm the only one that noticed this, I dunno? What I do know is that I go to Bulletin Boards to read what other Visitors have to say - not what Moderators have to say.

Since I provide Web Hosting (among other services) I am not allowed to post certain "things." Moderators for any Bulletin Board should also not be allowed to post certain "things." This I believe, would be a good rule and keep things on the up & up with no appearence of preferentially. Moderators -- at all times -- must appear impartial.

Well said, Rob.

Sorry I didn't see this discussion before I made that long post in the one about Annette's departure (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?postid=28319#post28319). Anyway...

When I suggest to ignore certain posts, I guess the best way I can explain it is by example. Once you are popular enough to be talked about, people aren't always going to say nice things (any business).
The first rule on our MIMForum is: be nice. You moderators might consider making the first rule here: don't be rude. Define it (facts are OK, personal attacks are not, etc.), then enforce it, not by selectively editing messages but by deleting them entirely. Do that, and start acting like referees instead of like players on the field, and watch how quickly the general tone here improves.

If people do not like the rules, go somewhere else. That's all there is to it, cause you can't please everyone.
Amen, brother!

I see that type of mistake over and over...a moderator will say something that adds fuel to the fire instead of squelching it.
Happens here MUCH too often.

Do not let posts veer off topic. If it does, move it to another thread.
Essential! Most multi-page threads do not end up on the same topic they started on. Threads should also be renamed whenever necessary. Titles like "Help!!!!!!!!!!!!!" are truly useless.

I realize you were all chosen as moderators here because you were active on the board and posted a lot of messages.
That disturbs me...I hope the moderators were not chosen because they have a lot of posts.
That's not the ONLY reason, but all forums want to recruit for their staff active members of the community who exhibit some expertise in the area under discussion, and who have already proven they come across well in a written medium.

People keep arguing that many people don;t want to register for one simple post. Has anyone rememberd what they needed to do to register? They had to fill in their username, password, and e-mail. That's it.
As active as I am on a number of online forums, if I'm checking out some new ones and they require registration I generally pass them by. Why? Because I wonder if they're only interested in harvesting my e-mail address to use to spam me, or to sell to a third party. I'm sure I'm not the only one who is suspicious. Something to keep in mind.

Originally posted by Chicken
As I said in another post, we can turn on IPs and someone will request that we hide them, or we can leave them off and someone will want them on. We can also kill the guest posting, but it won't eliminate all the problems.

.....

Dr. Chicken :) You are a bright and intelligent person. Please permit me to clarify my thoughts in a rather direct manner. Again, I don't mean to be harsh or disrespectfull. Perhaps I'm reading more into your comment so please excuse me.

NEVER exspect to please everyone. NEVER try to please everyone. The operative word is "everyone" Just do it :) and live with it. The majority of your members will support you when you turn on the IPs and eliminate Guests that can post. THATS all you need. A clear explanation of why you are doing it and the benifits to the membership. The rest of the crew can point their browsers in another direction as I have often said :)

Was I not clear :) Did I not speak from first hand experience :) as an owner/operator.

You will NEVER elimnate abuse/problems. Idon't think I infered otherwise. You WILL dramatically reduce it with my procedures in place. Iv'e got battle scars and stats to prove it.

Have I mentioned that I just work here? :) Steve I don't own the board, nor do I make those decisions. IP addresses were on, (I didn't turn them off). You are free to make suggestions, just realize that all I'll do is pass them on and discuss it with the other moderators and the powers that be. Thanks for the input, you made some great points.

Point taken Dr. C :)

So where is the chief GEEK? The person that owns and operates this place? The person or persons that makes the final call?

This kind of Community requires the head Geek to show a presence of some sort. Yes, we are all busy as snot but if the Community "sees" the head honcho it means a lot. It meaans a great deal to members of all flavors. This kind of BB is not and never will be a "hands off" kinda deal. That's simply not the nature of the beast. Other types of Boards can go for weeks at a time and never see the chief geek and they are fine.

I handle it this way with this kind of thread:

Every so often after 5 or 10 posts I say: Thanks to all of you for your contributions. I'm still digesting the comments in this thread. <then I might insert a few questions or partial clarrifications>

What I never do is "take the bait" or treat members in a disresptfull manner. Providing they comply with the rules they can take me to task as long as they want. This is in fact part of the goal of the thread. Memebers need to blow off steam and know that the powers to be are listining. Iv'e also never used a "shill" to support a thread like this.

Again, no offence meant to anyone. You have a great deal at stake. A unique high quality Community and given the mainstream "culture" it's worth a few bruses and scars :)

I also don't mean to push all of this off on Matt either.

We're trying you know, and although this board might not be perfect, plenty of very good discussion and Q&A goes on here. I've posted links to other boards where every comment about web hosting is met with "you should check out my company ABCDjoehosting". Suggestions are good though, and we'd all like to hear and talk about anything that can be improved.

Everyone has made valid points here, but all of them will have their downsides:

1) Eliminating guest posting: This will help get rid of the one-visit flamers which will think it is funny to get 10 - 15 people telling them, then people correcting them, etc.

2) IP addresses: adding them back in will make people who don't like them complain, but people who would like to know what some others are.

3) Moderators: There are 2 different moderators IMO. One is like Chicken and BG, which will post and help people out a lot. There are also the ones which are there to post occasionally to charify something, delete a thread/lock, and other things.

Those are just my opinion.

Dr C and crew. Congrats and best wishes on the changes. I sence some "battle fatigue" so I want to encourage you, the crew, and Head Geek Matt to hang in their.

This bares repeating, the Board is worth a few bruses and is an outstanding resource. Some additional comments which I hope and pray everyone understands are meant to help.

1) Maybe you have done this so please excuse me, the changes with IPs and other stuff need an official announcement. I'm not very good at quick thoughts so I usually compose them, let my Mods help me edit same, sit on them for a day or two and then post. The thread is locked. Iv'e already had comments, made up my mind in concert with members and Mods. I have "spoken" in a polite and definitive manner. Respectfull of all members and the issue is closed. I always try and point out the benifits to the Community and then close with an encouraging and positive word.

2) I don't want to jump to conclusions but I noticed your tag no longer says "Moderator" If this is part of a new policy or procedure then I would be gratefull for an announcement.

3) I hope you and most of the members understand that changes of any nature don't happen in a second or two. The majority of your members will give you time to compose and plan your actions. I once spent 5 days on an issue about porno/adult links on my Board. I closed a Forum for 12 days while we figured out what to do. Sure, a few were chomping at the bit and beat me up and others just left. But the majority of members were outstanding and waited for the final word. They all know with absolute certainty that when I/we "speak" it's after a lot of thought, discussion, private edits, and obsessive behavior :)

Best of luck.

Thanx for the help and advice. Hope to see you around a lil more. ;)

So, what happened. Did all the moderators quit? Get fired?

I believe they all moderate under one username now. Though, I might be wrong

If it is the same people, then what was the purpose of changing it? And if it is different people, why not say so? What's to hide?

Just noticed something here and thought I'd make mention that it was not my idea (nor anyone else's I would think) to cause major site-wide changes. As it appears there are no longer any Moderators, I would think that's a very drastic move to solve any Moderator problems.

It was my understanding that Feedback was encouraged and welcomed, regarding how to make things better here. I presume discussions are currently underway, possible regarding the feedback, and we will soon see a new & improved situation. Critique is always hard to take when it appears negative but should not get anybody down - for long anyway.

I shall look forward to the new changes as hopefully they will make things better for everyone and allow the Community spirit to grow even more. :agree:

P.S. As long as changes are being made, is it possible to do away with the God/God(dess) thing? Maybe go for "All-Star" "SuperStar" "TopDog" or something?

Hi there,

Discussions are in place and we have taken some immediate actions.


Guest posting has been disabled.
Every registration requires e-mail verification.
Several IPs of known offenders have been banned, we will update this will more known offenders as time persists. We have taken great care to ensure we do not block anyone else's IP by doing this, checking if static etc...
All moderation actions to be justify.
Email moderators@webhostlink.com forwards to all moderators of WebHostLink
Moderators standard username/passwords do not have any special rights. Moderation performed under user account Administration.


We will not stop there there are several offer features that will be discussed shortly. Please bare with us. :)

Originally posted by MattF
Please bare with us. :)



You want us all to get naked? :)

I just noticed that kunal is now listed as Web Hosting Master


What makes you a "master" at web hosting?!


Is there something wrong with being listed as "Moderator" or something similar? All these tags like "god" and "master" are pretty obnoxious.


What does moderating have to do with web hosting?

From my understanding, the moderators have gone back to using the regular names based on the number of posts they have. The names BC, Chicken etc are normal names and have no special priviledges.

When they are moderating something, they login as Administrator, then do whatever it is they have to do.

Dumb idea. No other forum I know of works this way, and for very good reasons. All it will do is confuse your membership, and make it seem like the staff here is trying to avoid taking responsibility for their actions.

Congrats Matt on the changes :)

I certainly agree 100% with Deb's comments about "the voice of authority" speaking behind a single "name" which in your case is Administrator.

I would like to approach this issue from a different perspective. Isn't one of the purposes of a Community to network? Not the LAN we all use. The other kind :) Given the inherint elevated status and prestege of Joe Disk, Moderator, you are depriving your talented crew of significant benifits in their ability to network.

Nothing gives me more please in this short time on earth than to see my Moderators develop great contacts and make tons of money because everyone knowes who they are. Their name appears along with Moderator on all post which does include disciplinary action. I won't break out the tissues and waste bandwidth, but one of my roles as the Chief Geek is to insure this happens.

Next, how can you build "Community" with the same folks using "Administration" Please note I said Community and not a Board because in my view that's what it's all about. Think of it like this, trying to make friends with folks in the brick-and-mortar world without using their names. They won't give you their names. That's impossible to due.

Please consider this solution: Reinstate your Mods titles and insure their screen name is the same. Next, create a private Forum or use the Private Forum you have. Next as the case is justified, have your talented team of geeks immediately move threads with abuse into the Private Forum. This move deleates the original. Next you can clean them up or keep them their. This has several advantages: no more 15 minutes of fame, your attorney will love it as inflamatory legal issue kind of nasty posts immediately go away, fewer nasty flame wars will break out as you have immediately difused the issue, and finally, your Board will look much cleaner and more focused. Even if they aren't sure and need other views, just move it at once. You can always move it back. This plan is not perfect and sometimes it's very hard to decide if you edit a post and leave the thread. This happens on long ones with great content and a single "abuser" showes up. Also, when you immediately ban the abuser and the domain, block the IP if you can, and other "things" if warranted they sometimes write and can't "see" what they did wrong. Even with these negatives, the pluses make it a viable procedure.

Naturally, you need to announce this before you start it, make it crystal clear that you don't leave tracks behind as I don't think vB can do this.

Best of luck and hope this helps.

Springboarding off Steve's comments, I suggest a new category to which the inane, the insane, and the inurbane might be transferred... perhaps something along the line of "IDIOT POSTS".

Although the majority of my own posts may wind up there [ ~etLux acts plucky and noble, stiffens upper lip ], I am willing to make this sacrifice for the greater good of the board, the world, and the cosmos at large.

I'd like to thank everyone for their advice, support, criticisms, flames, etc. so far. I really have to say it's a rather intimidating learning experience and one I'm pretty sure will stick for quite a while.

Matt is currently in the process of making about 8-10 substantial changes that will affect how WHT is run. To be frankly honest I have no idea what they are and I'll be bugging him on ICQ as soon as he pops on again tonight.

I have had my own conversation with Annette and we have decided to move on in our own separate directions. I wish her the very best of luck with everything (having little doubt she'll succeed with HM).

I would like to ask everyone to keep posting what they want to see and feel will be beneficial to the board - let's clear it up now so that we can move on and get the board back to where it should be.

And Greg, consider this : no one can see you naked on the Net :D

Thanks everyone.

Originally posted by BC
...no one can see you naked on the Net

All things considered, that is perhaps a blessing.

ok i see tension, and kinda feel like a dork for asking this, why are so many people mad at Annette. And why are people saying that they hope they dont succeed. Thats like saying, i hope you dont make it through surgery. I have read throught the posts and dont see why? Can Someone wrap it up to me.

To the best of my knowledge, Annette's never once come here naked -- so I guess you can rule that out.

Originally posted by TheComputerGuy
ok i see tension, and kinda feel like a dork for asking this, why are so many people mad at Annette. And why are people saying that they hope they dont succeed. Thats like saying, i hope you dont make it through surgery. I have read throught the posts and dont see why? Can Someone wrap it up to me.

Maybe I haven't gotten to posts re: mad at or not succeeding, but I think it would be best to email her if you are interested in anything relating to this.


Originally posted by Greg
I just noticed that kunal is now listed as Web Hosting Master


What makes you a "master" at web hosting?!


Is there something wrong with being listed as "Moderator" or something similar? All these tags like "god" and "master" are pretty obnoxious.


What does moderating have to do with web hosting?

Greg, anything else? Are the colors of the forums ok? :rolleyes:


Everyone else,
Just hang in there a few days. Polite suggestions are appreciated.

hmm.. yes the colours... i was just about to mention that!

*plugs in beating stick*

It works better when it warms up :)

Per above, I've never objected much to being called Master or God... but hey, I've always had the foresight to train my lackeys properly to begin with.

Chicken, put that thing down until you learn how to use it. Last time you almost put out your own eye with it.

Is it true you can go blind wh....

*nevermind*

You almost put your eye out with that? Wow. I'm impressed.

True, people can use an anonymizer but it will deter the casual troll.

Chicken, and Matt, the last post in the discussion about why Annette left is an excellent example of how a poorly trained and unsupervised staff hurts a forum: http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3439&pagenumber=3

Matt, as I mentioned in an e-mail to Chicken, you are acting like an absentee landlord, letting your volunteer staff take the heat for policy decisions for which YOU, and ONLY YOU, as the owner of this board, bear FULL responsibility.

<b>I just happend to tell someone that in my opinion some of the posts were a bit harsh and maybe she might want to tone them down.</b>
Chicken, you are a staff member on this board, and a representative of the owner of this board. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS "JUST HAPPENED" WHEN YOU ARE ON THE STAFF!!!!

Your message is totally out of line, should never have been posted, and should be removed. Had you posted that message on a board of mine you would have been fired from the staff immediately, and I would be falling over myself apologizing to the membership about your poor judgement. The staff of a forum should be ABOVE the fray, not down in the mud. What were you thinking?! It was neither necessary nor fair to post a personal attack, then close the discussion. Anyone who's gotta have the last word should not be on the staff of any forum.

I hold Matt entirely responsible for not training his staff properly, if at all, and appearing to pay no attention to his forum and the way it is being run. The staff here is now in the position of having injured not only one member of the community, but the entire community, and making matters much worse than they were, or ever should have been.

I've emailed you Deb (sure you'll it it before reading this, but just in case).

I can not believe that this situation has snowballed like this. It's absolutely amazing...and it seems there is no end in sight.

These forums are suppose to be a place where people come to share/learn information. Lately, it is a soap opera.

There should be firm rules and the rules should be followed. Period. If you had sterner rules, no one could have a "bad day" on these forums...the post would have been removed, immediately. If someone is having a bad day, or is frustrated, whatever, this public forum is not the place it should be brought up.

Why was a personal email from someone placed on these forums? This is a personal issue between the person in question and WHT. The person in question made a decision to leave. That is their choice. The person in question is also very capable of speaking for themselves and has said all there is to say on the matter, so why is someone speaking for them? Again, it had no business being posted to this forum because it is personal in nature. Of course, this lead to a personal attack on the email from one of the moderators. What did you expect? For him to sit quiet and not respond? The guy is human. I am not saying the post was appropriate. I am saying the email should not have been posted in the first place, ergo, no need for a response.

If you are a moderator you are a moderator. What are you gonna do, be authoritative and slip into that nickname? Why sneak? If you are a moderator, have your title say moderator, moderate and let's move on. The title under your name is NOT what made things go bad. This board requires an element of trust. You can't be trustworthy sneaking around.
Plus it is confusing. You are going to have newbies coming in (I hope) that will have no idea what is going on.

Now a post I was just about to refer to just disappeared.

I need another cup of coffee. :)

Originally posted by Chicken
Greg, anything else? Are the colors of the forums ok? :rolleyes:



Geesh, first you guys ask for our opinions and comments, then you bloody whine and bitch about it when i make a small comment that "god" and "master" shouldn't be part of the nicks!


Fine, do whatever the hell you want.

Originally posted by Tyme
I can not believe that this situation has snowballed like this. It's absolutely amazing...and it seems there is no end in sight.

These forums are suppose to be a place where people come to share/learn information. Lately, it is a soap opera.

There should be firm rules and the rules should be followed. Period. If you had sterner rules, no one could have a "bad day" on these forums...the post would have been removed, immediately. If someone is having a bad day, or is frustrated, whatever, this public forum is not the place it should be brought up.

Why was a personal email from someone placed on these forums? This is a personal issue between the person in question and WHT. The person in question made a decision to leave. That is their choice. The person in question is also very capable of speaking for themselves and has said all there is to say on the matter, so why is someone speaking for them? Again, it had no business being posted to this forum because it is personal in nature. Of course, this lead to a personal attack on the email from one of the moderators. What did you expect? For him to sit quiet and not respond? The guy is human. I am not saying the post was appropriate. I am saying the email should not have been posted in the first place, ergo, no need for a response.

If you are a moderator you are a moderator. What are you gonna do, be authoritative and slip into that nickname? Why sneak? If you are a moderator, have your title say moderator, moderate and let's move on. The title under your name is NOT what made things go bad. This board requires an element of trust. You can't be trustworthy sneaking around.
Plus it is confusing. You are going to have newbies coming in (I hope) that will have no idea what is going on.

Now a post I was just about to refer to just disappeared.

I need another cup of coffee. :)

Some how everything on this post, makes perfect sense to me, even though he/she hasnt had his/her coffe ;). But seriously, I think we should put a stop to this discussion. The person who all these revolve around has made her choice and left. Whats the point on going on and on about something that isnt going to change?

Lets look at what can be done, rather then what had been done. Most of the inputs on how to improve, have been very good. And some have even been implemented, the rest need to be discused before the changes are implemented.

This is my last post, regarding this topic. I hope it was the last, of this thread.

I posted that message (in the thread that is gone). The person in question did not order me to do it. I asked if I could post all of it or part of it, and she said (quote)I don't care what you do with it, one way or another. The issue is dead, in my opinion, so I don't know what good it will do you or even if it is advisable at all.(endquote) BUT - some people don't go to hostcoalition. Some people don't know the reasons behind this. I thought it a very nice (eloquent, as I said) post that definitely didn't insult anyone like the response to it. I definitely don't think it was a personal attack on one of the mods, because as she pointed out it could have been any of them. If I had known that he would react so childishly I would never have posted it in the first place. Some people think this revolves all around her, and the moderators are guilty of making it seem that way. You mods are acting in a completely unfair manner. I take offense, too, at some of the stuff in the response by the mod in question because I'm offended by him trying to make those of us who care out to be stupid or calling all of it BS or that there can't possibly be any problems here because no one has told the mods about them. Mods are supposed to be PROactive in watching what goes on, not just REact (badly sometimes) when things start rolling as they always will. You mods should take some lessons from Deb and Tyme.

I want to post my feedback. I did in another thread and the thread has gone away. IN that thread mattf said they were going to discuss the issues tonight and that were conflicting opinions on everything, one person say ignore idiots/trolls, the other says immediately delete their posts, the other says move them to a special forum, shame them etc....



This could be part of the problem, that a moderator feels the need to publicly shame trolls and idiots. The mindset of the moderators should not be to publicly shame anyone. A forum has a set of rules and the moderators are there to enforce the rules of the forum: swiftly, consistently and equally - and that's it.

The moderators are not here to publicly shame anyone or go and talk behind people's backs or contact a business that posts here about the "tone" of their posts. If whoever the person is, isn't breaking the rules then leave them alone.

When I first started reading this forum I thought Duster was mean and curt. I have since learned that he is very insightful and he posts valuable information. But he is very direct and doesn't place a lot of smileys in his threads. I'm used to him now. Even if I wasn't used to him I wouldn't go whine to the moderators because his post hurt my feelings.

When you are dealing with email or posts like on these boards it can be difficult to sometimes determine how to take things that are being said. Maybe people worry too much about how something comes across instead of what is actually said.

As discussions are taking place and things still being worked out, there is something I'd like to point out.

Right now (and for however long) Moderators are not identified and do their dutities as just "Administration." I would sure hope things are not going to stay that way. Why? This is the exact inverse of "Guest posting has been disabled. " which Matt detailed yesterday. If Moderators are allowed to Moderate annonymously, that will create a "watch your back" attitude at WHT and constrain the freeflow of conversation/information.

Regulars at WHT know who the Moderators are - right now. At some point that is going to change. Will Moderators then make annoucements that they no longer Moderate, so anything that happens - don't blame them. Or will the changes be slient and exModerators will then have to constantly defend themselves by repeating over and over, they no longer Moderate. People (especially regulars) will then be wondering, who amongst them, is a Moderator. Who do I have to be careful with so they don't use the powers of a Moderator against me.

In most legal systems, a person has the right to face their accuser. In a Bulletin Board Community, people have the right to know who the Moderators are, as they are the Enforcers of the Board Policy. That not exactly written in stone somewhere but I'm sure it should be. Moderators should not be nameless, faceless, entities that wander around a Bulletin Board. Moderators should also, not be classified as regular visitor - to a Bulletin Board they Moderate at. They should always have the Title of Moderator attached to them, for as long as they are a Moderator.

I could be jumping the gun here, as I know discussions are in progress. Still, I just wanted to point out a bad direction to be headed in.

Originally posted by Greg
Geesh, first you guys ask for our opinions and comments, then you bloody whine and bitch about it when i make a small comment that "god" and "master" shouldn't be part of the nicks!

Sorry Greg, you're right. I think I just finished tracking down about 6 ads from the same person where you commented something about, "where are the mods?", and then saw your post about the titles. Please forgive the bitchy/sarcastic comment. Every little bit of feedback does help.

I think the titles were just to add a bit of fun (errr... maybe variety?) to the forums. As you've probably realized they are based on the total number of posts and nothing else, so no matter what is there it won't be all that relevant, heh. Any suggestions as to exactly what the titles could be? I'd like to have something more humourous, (can that be somehow balanced with something professional-ish?).

Should be interesting to see what some of the members suggest...

Any suggestions as to exactly what the titles could be? I'd like to have something more humourous, (can that be somehow balanced with something professional-ish?).


I don't think it really matters that much what the titles are. The quality of the posts are what's important, not the number of post, and the title that goes with it.

In the last 24 hours I have seen a vast improvement here. I know that it's a lot of work having to track down and delete the posts that you mentioned above. Too many people got used to just posting whatever they wanted, knowing that their post would probably not get deleted. It will take some time to get things back the way they should be, but once people realize that such behavior will not be tolerated they will either start contributing to the discussion in a meaningful way, or leave and find another board to spam. Either way, WebHosting Talk comes out ahead.

Any suggestions as to exactly what the titles could be?
They should be removed, or left to the individual members. All you, as staff, need to know is when someone makes his or her very first post, so they can be welcomed as a new member to the board. The titles you've been picking, as you may have noticed, have annoyed some people. Terms like "god" and "master," which have nothing at all to do with the content of the messages people post, are not only useless, but irritating. Just my opinion.

Deb, I don't think they can be left up to the individual poster, but I'll have to look if that's an option (unless you know it can). I've seen about 2 people (you included) that didn't like the titles. For the most part, people seem to get a little kick out of them. It would be good to know if the majority of the board didn't like them though.

James' comment (UnitedTec) that the titles weren't all that important was probably the main reson I jumped on Greg. I didn't think so either, but now I realize he was just trying to point out a suggestion. If members can come up with someting good, I'm sure it will be considered.

Although they may not be all that important, it does/could add a little touch to everything, even if it is fairly insignificant. It really just tells how many posts you've made. (Quantity not quality of those posts though).

Chicken, your right, the nicks are not a big deal, but I thought it would help a little, I just thought that maybe those words "god" and "master" might offend some people, not me, but others.

I would think that even "hostmaster" would be better than "hosting master", it's similar to webmaster. The word "god" beside our names will surely offend someone, someday.

How about doing away with the names altogether and replacing them with a set of small graphics. Maybe a graphic of a computer. Then once you've made 30 posts you get one computer below your name. Once you've made 100 posts you get a second one, and so on. I have seen that done on other vBulletin Boards. I don't know if it was a hack or not, but it is an idea.

Another suggestion is to use the military rankings

Use stars and stripes

I would be afraid that military rankings and expecially stars and stripes might be a bit too nationalistic expecially given the international clientel of this board. Though the concept may work if we were to come up with our own ranking system.

New Member
Web Guru Wannabe
Web Guru Apprentice
Web Guru
Webmaster Apprentice
Webmaster
Senior Webmaster
I post too much here

These would be fairly benign and in the end would add a little humor for those folks with over 1000 posts.

Marty

I think just do away with the rankings!.. NO RANKINGS...

:)

A few final thoughts in no particular order:

1) This Board belongs to Matt and thus he and only he is responsable for it's "sucess" by setting the tone, procedures and rules. I wish you all the very very best during these troubled times.

2) Why do Fireman and Police wear uniforms? I'm sure we all know the answers: authority, control, identity, role models, standards of behavior etc. Please get dressed :) Mods and put on your uniform with an appropriate tag that clearly identifies each one of YOU as a "Moderator"

3) Please don't ever ever loose site of that fact that "members" and only members make this place a hit (pun intended) They built it and a small number of them can tear it down if you let them. They will help you set the tone if they see leadership and examples/role models and you ask them and provide them with a confidential trouble report. Peer presure is a very powerfull force. Look to your members for direction when you aren't sure. They often tell you what to do and enjoy helping.

Management and this includes the owner and all the Admins/Mods is always "above the frey" They never take the bait. They never ever treat a member in a harsh and disrespectfull manner. When they do, that is a clear and absolute sign of "burn out" which is perfectly natural. An incredibly tough job can be very very "heavy" on the heart and mind. Respectfully, unless you have done it for a significant period of time you will have trouble understanding my words. I see "burn out" so maybe some should leave. Or take a few months off to recharge the batteries. Iv'e had a few burn out myself and I have been through some really challenging times as I tried to find my way. I'm still friends with my "retired" crew. They return to post on an intermittent basis and I will always be eternally gratefull for their direction and help.

In conclusion, I don't mean to be harsh or disrespectfull. Just candid and helpfull. Best of luck :)

Thanks for your valuable comments Steve. Matt and I will be discussing them in the very near future.

Just to let everyone know - as you may have noticed, we've decided to remove that single 'Administration' role, with the moderators returning to normal.

If you have more suggestions, keep them rolling. Ta.

Originally posted by Greg
...will surely offend someone, someday.

This is about the only thing I can guarentee, eh? :) I like hostmaster, or maybe something similar.

Originally posted by Marty
How about doing away with the names altogether and replacing them with a set of small graphics

The only potential problem I can see with the images is transfer amounts. I've seen that too, not sure if I've cared for it, but with a smaller board you can do just about anyting. Once it starts getting pageviews, I'd imagine that loading all of those graphics (even small ones), would significantly affect the cost of running the board. Yeah, I know, smilies add to it too, but we can't live without smilies right? Certain things I'm not willing to part with!!!