There seems to be no marketing forum, so I think my worry would fit in here. What is it with this obsession about "PR" ranks when it comes to link-exchanges, advertising, selling, promoting businesses? Where did the basics as "traffic", "targeting", "targeted leads" go? It seems like people would care about a high PR, but no actual advertising worth nowadays. Did people forget that PR is just 1 element of 1 search engine? The core marketing theories have been shifting to some unexplainable to me tendencies.

To give you an example, assuming that ad rates are about the same, people would rather market their products and services on turn-key sites with 50 visitors a day and PR7, than on InfoWorld magazine web site with PR5 and 50,000 visitors a day.

So tell me why would YOU (if you are that someone) value a PR rank more than (for example) the exposure your company gets? And if I'm the only one who thinks this is ridiculous.

Best,

Originally posted by Artashes
Did people forget that PR is just 1 element of 1 search engine?

The largest one in the world. :D


Originally posted by Artashes
To give you an example, assuming that ad rates are about the same, people would rather market their products and services on turn-key sites with 50 visitors a day and PR7, than on InfoWorld magazine web site with PR5 and 50,000 visitors a day.

So tell me why would YOU (if you are that someone) value a PR rank more than (for example) the exposure your company gets? And if I'm the only one who thinks this is ridiculous.

Well in my opinion, being listed on page 1 for popular keywords on google would get you a lot more traffic then a small ad on a magazine site, and would cost a crapload less. You can get PR6 and PR7 text links for $5-$30/month, whereas an ad on a magazine site could run several thousand. Increasing your site's PR if done correctly is the most beneficial and cost effective method of online advertising.

Originally posted by Amdac
The largest one in the world. :D
Not the only one. Yahoo!, AllTheWeb, Lycos, MSN, AOL are still out there. Can you focus on your business only partially?

Originally posted by Amdac
Well in my opinion, being listed on page 1 for popular keywords on google would get you a lot more traffic then a small ad on a magazine site, and would cost a crapload less. You can get PR6 and PR7 text links for $5-$30/month, whereas an ad on a magazine site could run several thousand. Increasing your site's PR if done correctly is the most beneficial and cost effective method of online advertising.
I assumed ad rates being about the same (or at least traffic-wise unproportionally fair).

I do not agree that increasing your site's PR is the most beneficial and cost effective method of advertising. Not convinced at all. Thousands of your competitors are trying to do the same thing, so what are the chances you'll be in Top 10 results?

Best,

Originally posted by Artashes
Not the only one. Yahoo!, AllTheWeb, Lycos, MSN, AOL are still out there. Can you focus on your business only partially?


If you ignore google and PRs, you too are only focusing on partial opportunity.


Originally posted by Artashes
I assumed ad rates being about the same (or at least traffic-wise unproportionally fair).

I do not agree that increasing your site's PR is the most beneficial and cost effective method of advertising. Not convinced at all. Thousands of your competitors are trying to do the same thing, so what are the chances you'll be in Top 10 results?

That's why I said "if done properly". ;) Thousands of my competitors are also advertising on magazine sites, etc.

I have banner ads all over the place, as well as many text links to try and boost PR. Why ignore the leading search engine?

Dave, I'm not suggesting that people should completely ignore Google. I'm just commenting how obsessed they got with it. Often to insanity. They would walk away from a clearly better deal from a branding, reach and traffic point of view just to have their site on a higher PR site. That is not right and will eventually backfire on their businesses.

Best,

Speaking of PR's -- how often does Google update PR's anyway? Is it sporadic, or does it happen during predictable time periods?


JP

Originally posted by johnder
Speaking of PR's -- how often does Google update PR's anyway? Is it sporadic, or does it happen during predictable time periods?
I don't really know... I have never really cared for PR to study it that closely.

If I didn't have this Google search bar installed, I wouldn't even know about PR ratings -- but I don't have enough of an understanding about the wonderful world of Google PR to discount it completely.


JP

JP, same here. I never really understood people when they were talking about some "PR" or where do you find it, etc. Then installed a toolbar, which seemed like a cool feature anyway - gives you faster access to search.

The PageRank (PR) of your site determines where it gets listed on google. For people that care about site traffic and popularity, it's something that's worth learning as it could have a huge impact on your business. Why pay for AdWords when you could be on the first google page to start with? ;)

That's true. Though I've never tried pushing for PR, my major concern is the sheer number of people doing the same thing. So instead, I believe in simply building links from other web sites to my own, which ironically enough should increase my PR, right?


JP

Actually, Yahoo is still the largest search engine, since more people have yahoo set as their homepage due to their portal with all other non-search related features. Google just happens to have the best searching algorithms, and is still growing fast, but is not yet the largest. It may be the most popular in the tech-crowds, but Jane & John Doe and Suzie Homemaker who don't know much about computers, other than you can get email and find movie listings prefer to use Yahoo.

There are different strategies that you can use to market your site, playing with PR is one of them. It also happens to be one of the cheapest ways, thus adding to its popularity, and somewhat obsession. Just remember the phrase "Don't put all your eggs into one basket". You shouldn't have all of your marketing efforts be for PR/Link exchanges, but at the same time, you shouldn't ignore them.

Originally posted by johnder
That's true. Though I've never tried pushing for PR, my major concern is the sheer number of people doing the same thing. So instead, I believe in simply building links from other web sites to my own, which ironically enough should increase my PR, right?


JP

It depends on the PR and topic of the site linking to you. However, if you're attempting to gain links from other sites, why not go for a PR increase at the same time? ;) Just target sites with a relatively high PR relating to the same types of topics as yours.

In terms of the sheer number, keep in mind that there's an unlimited number of keywords and search terms. You're building your PR around your chosen keywords and if chosen well, you could end up with very little competition. It works the similar to AdWords.

Originally posted by amish_geek
Actually, Yahoo is still the largest search engine

Incorrect. Yahoo is more popular as a website due to email accounts and the abundance of other features, however google receives more searches daily.

Additionally, Google also has a much larger website database.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Yahoo also run a Google engine, or is it just their advertising that's similar, or the way they look?

I haven't used Yahoo in a very long time, ever since I started using Google, so please... educate me. =)


JP

Originally posted by johnder
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't Yahoo also run a Google engine, or is it just their advertising that's similar, or the way they look?

I haven't used Yahoo in a very long time, ever since I started using Google, so please... educate me. =)


JP

No, Google and Yahoo are serious competitors. Google used to use Yahoo's database until they broke off and went their own way several years ago.

Yahoo used to have powered by Google on there search engine a ways back im pretty sure. Also I think its something like 80% of the searches done online are through google, so Id say it is pretty important.

I can't find the official stats I came across a few weeks ago, however these numbers seem pretty close.

http://www.searchutilities.com/news/1763.html

Compare the global marketshare as well as growth rate. ;)

Google is roughly 250% larger and growing at an enormous rate.

Since Yahoo wont release the number of indexed pages it's hard to get accurate stats that way. However, if you do a search in both for the word "the", Yahoo has 1.9 billion matches, Google has 5.9 billion matches. This should give a rough idea of the differences in database size.

"It is clear that Google still dominates the search engine market"

Back on topic, this is why people are "obsessed" about page ranks and google listings. ;)

I remember back in the day (heh) when a friend told me to use Google. I used Yahoo religiously, though I had that "something's gotta be better" feeling.

Then I used Google. And never used any other search engine since then. I was amazed at how everything I looked for always resulted in being on the first few result listings -- and how relevant they were. But now we can take that for granted.

Share your first Google memory. =P


JP

i.t class. thought the name was naff.

unless you want to spend countless $'s in getting on top of all the search's and countless $'s in getting a ad in every mag out there. you can't target the "whole" market anyways

It is best to pick the best way for YOU to advertise as closely to the market YOU are trying to reach than go after "everyone" IMHO

Google does not have 80% of the worlds searches. Google does not even have 50%, Google has about a 40% market share of the worlds searches.

MSN, Yahoo, Altavista, and the other Major search engines make up a good chunk. Thats why Overture works so well.

As someone correctly noted above, do not put all your eggs in one basket. Google, if you look at it closer, has NOTHING to keep customers coming back, except for love toward their search results. Yahoo!, in a span of 2-3 years will not only beat them (btw, they ARE still the largest engine), but hurt the Google machine. Google has no idea who their "customers" are. They have no means to learn and retain their users, yet. I really hope things are going to change, because from an investor standpoint they are walking on the cliff. And Yahoo! has the content, they have all the variety of information they can quickly expand to or use to power up their business.

I have no particular priority. I still use both Google and Yahoo! for searches and when I need content/information, I always go to Yahoo! But if MSN, AOL or some guy from Mongolia creates a better search engine than Google tomorrow - I will switch to it without thinking.

That's why all this obsession with PR ranking doesn't make sense to me - people are not thinking long-term, thus putting their businesses in danger.

Best,

Originally posted by amish_geek
Google does not have 80% of the worlds searches. Google does not even have 50%,

I just pasted a link with actual stats proving a 53.2% marketshare as of 2 months ago and increasing quickly at that time. How can you sit here and say it's wrong without any form of backup whatsoever?

Originally posted by Artashes
That's why all this obsession with PR ranking doesn't make sense to me - people are not thinking long-term, thus putting their businesses in danger.


How does PR based advertising campaigns put a company in danger if it brings clients? Is this just a google bashing thread or do you have a valid point to argue? I've proven statistics, you're doing nothing but flaming google and any person or company that bases their advertising around google results. Just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean nobody else can achieve effective results from PR campaigns.

Dave, I am not bashing Google, nor do I advice against using PR to pump up your business - jeez, do as your please, especially if it works for you, who am I to tell you not to.

This thread, if you haven't noticed, is a QUESTION, not a statement, so I do not have to back it up with facts - its the job of someone who has done wonders with PR marketing to prove me otherwise. However, it does have an existing valid point - of not heavily relying and focusing on PR-mastering as most people do today, as there are thousands of people and businesses who do just the same - trying to get into that Top 10 or 20 results. Especially that you are the one who brought up interesting fact that Google owns only 53% of the marketshare.

Personally I have been somewhat successful to have top positions on many keywords and have a maximum of PR 8. However, I did not put it as my priority, nor invested any efforts or time into doing it. I was just doing my job and whatever happened - happened.

People at WHT tend to get disappointed or mad (can't say exactly what it is - not a doctor) rather quick when it comes to other people asking questions that might not be likable to them.

Best,

Originally posted by Amdac
How does PR based advertising campaigns put a company in danger if it brings clients?
Oh, by the way, to answer your question - obviously when you put it this way - if it brings you clients it does not put your company in danger.

However, long-term (as what I specifically mentioned) it puts the company in danger if Google goes out of business or loses significant market share, which I see happening personally (information courtesy of Nielsen NetRatings Vice President who I heard speaking on TV).

Originally posted by Artashes
However, long-term (as what I specifically mentioned) it puts the company in danger if Google goes out of business or loses significant market share, which I see happening personally (information courtesy of Nielsen NetRatings Vice President who I heard speaking on TV).

The company would NOT be in danger if it builds a client base based on PR campaigns, I'm not seeing your logic. If I build up a client base and google "somehow" disappears, how is my business in danger?

Originally posted by Artashes
Especially that you are the one who brought up interesting fact that Google owns only 53% of the marketshare.

Yes, Google is ONLY the most used search engine in the world, and ONLY more than double the size of the next leading competitor. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Amdac
The company would NOT be in danger if it builds a client base based on PR campaigns, I'm not seeing your logic. If I build up a client base and google "somehow" disappears, how is my business in danger?
Clearly your current clients and your current revenue stream would not be affected at all, but your positioning in regard to future cash flow might be in danger. What if you get all your clients off being listed highly at Google (and the chances of that happening are practically nil) and then when it goes offline - you'll have to let the world know about your company and build that marketing campaign from scratch. While if you were busy doing so before, people would have already started recognizing the name. It just feels that those companies who heavily rely on PR and nothing else are putting themselves in a position of high dependence. And is that how you would choose to run your company as in being dependent on someone elses' success? I don't.

Best,

I think that the most ironic aspect of all of this is that high PR doesn't guarantee you a good listing for popular keywords.

It partially increases your chances, but it doesn't do the entire job alone.

I do agree that buying tiny text links on PR7-8 sites for $500/month just doesn't make any sense.

Boris

Thank you, Boris. Finally one person coming through to realize what I'm trying to figure out myself.

As you said, from a marketing standpoint a high PR has no value to end customers, nor does it even guarantee anything because there are still thousands of same PR-minded folks who try to get into one of those Top 10 search result listings.

I would personally rather spend those $500 on Fortune Magazine web site and get the exposure I'll be proud for instead of killing the amount on PR building.

Best,

Originally posted by Artashes
What if you get all your clients off being listed highly at Google (and the chances of that happening are practically nil)...

You're basing your argument off the assumption you can't hit page 1 on your chosen keywords. As I said earlier, just because it doesn't work for you doesn't mean others can't be successful. I own 21 websites/domains, my last check at least 4 of those were on page 1 for the selected keywords with very little effort. All it takes is a little research and trial and error, it's NOT a difficult task if you actually put a little effort into it. In terms of google listings, you're not competing against the global market. You're only competing for your chosen keywords.

It works for me, that's why I do it.

Originally posted by hvoice-boris
I think that the most ironic aspect of all of this is that high PR doesn't guarantee you a good listing for popular keywords.

It partially increases your chances, but it doesn't do the entire job alone.

I do agree that buying tiny text links on PR7-8 sites for $500/month just doesn't make any sense.

Boris

Then why do you buy text links? :confused:

Originally posted by Amdac
Then why do you buy text links? :confused:
I don't think he does. He just uses it as example. :)

Originally posted by Artashes
I don't think he does. He just uses it as example. :)

He's bought some from me previously.