The title of this discussion got truncated. It should have read: ThinkHost has complained about being placed on the ForumHosts.com "avoid" list

Vladislav S. Davidzon of ThinkHost has sent me the following two e-mails regarding my webpage on finding a webhost at http://www.forumhosts.com/hosts.htm, in which I wrote: "We also recommend against ThinkHost, which is run by an 18-year old with more ego than sense. Although ThinkHost is popular on a few boards, the owner's unprofessional behavior led to his being banned from one forum, and is a cause for concern."

I had no intention of bringing the original e-mail here, but I believe any threat of a lawsuit by a host, express or implied, should be made public. At least this one knows the difference between slander and libel.


Dear Ms. Suran,

My name is Vladislav Davidzon, I am a Senior Network Engineer with ThinkHost, and I am writing to you regarding your "Finding a Web Host: ***** / ***** and other providers." web site, located at the URL of "http://www.forumhosts.com/hosts.htm". I ran across the mention of ThinkHost the other day, and I wanted to discuss this unfortunate situation with you, in hopes of getting your support for our company, but at the very least in hopes of gaining your understanding of our sitiation.

Look, the reason I am a little upset about the way things worked out is because my team and I work very hard every day to do our absolute best to provide a level of service above and beyond that offered by other companies, and I can honestly state today that we've done everything in our power to be different, to provide better support and service. I hope that you can understand my frustration when I say that its very hard to take (sometimes undeserved) criticism when you're working 10-12 hour days, answering support, trying to suit every client to the best of our abilities.

Our goal when we started out was to be different -- we were hoping to provide a superb level of support, service, and reliability that would truly make a difference. I guess I have almost a religious belief that my place in this world is to make a difference, and to set wrong right, and even though things just do not quite always work out that way, I can assure you that we've tried our absolute best, and will continue to try.

A lot of mistakes were made, mistakes which I have admitted to both in public forums as well as to our clients and staff in private conversations. I posted a fairly extensive thread explaining the mistake of being far too forceful with competitors, and not affording them the respect they deserved as fellow human beings. However, all things done to this point have been done in what I considered to be the best interest of our clients, the stability and integrity of our network, as well as best interest of the future of our company. We did not come here out of the idea of basic profit, like many of our competitors, but we came here because we wanted to really build a different breed of web hosting company, based around service and support. I give you my word that we will continue to strive towards that goal, but the only way for us to succeed is if we can gain the advice and perhaps support of people like yourself, people who have been hurt by our competitors, people who really know what hell we can go through.

As far as your comment about my ego, you're absolutely right in the fact that I have acted in ways that were unbecoming of the position of responsibility, respect, to our competitors, and some previous clients, and I'm specifically referring to the incident that occurred when one of our free account holders made a huge deal out of the fact that our board was missing the Bigtalker copyright notice. The incident blew out of proportion as a result of my inability to properly handle things, after I took personal offense at this. I think the best equivalent here could be your own backyard -- you wouldn't like someone trespassing on your property, at your cost, and then picking apples off your apple tree. Same idea more or less, as for awhile I was unable to see ThinkHost as anything less than my own second home, house, back yard, especially given the fact that at the time, I wrongfully thought that the copyright statement could apply to the messages posted on the site, and I mistrusted the creator of the board.

We hoped to get support from our free accounts, by actually picking up a really hefty tab for the bandwidth, support time, and server space required to host some of these sites -- many of which use up quite a bit more resources than even our heaviest paying clients. However, the exact opposite happened, and while we got a lot of short-term support, it seems that the most complaints have been made by these same people whose bills we were picking up. Surely I won't disagree with the fact that they have every reason to complain when things go awry, but when those complaints are far more frequent than any paying client, I have to wonder what the problem is here, especially when you are doing the absolutely best job you can possibly do.

We now have a team of five running things here -- two junior support consultants, a marketing genie, and two senior engineers. That means that four out of five people here are dedicated towards support -- although Jeff and I also do system administration / management work, we also do a lot of the advanced support queries. Our marketing genie also handles all affiliate support, so basically our entire company is dedicated mostly to support -- over 85% of what we do on a day to day basis is make sure that all clients are happy. You get the idea -- we really do try our absolute best. However, we're far from perfect, and that's exactly what I am e-mailing you today -- I want your advice, your support, and any other assistance you can provide.

I hope that you can recognize that while some of my actions were improper and out of place, throughout the life of this company, our intents were only the best, and I am very interested in building a working relationship with you, as you can clearly offer our company really invaluable advice and guidance. I want to take the time and listen if you have any advice, suggestions, ideas and ways that we can improve, and ways that we can evolve. I ask that you give us a chance to prove that the company here is worth a second look. I'd like to build a working relationship with you, and see where things might end up. I'm open to all options here, but most importantly I am looking for ideas and feedback as to how we can improve, and ideas for gaining ground. I honestly want to correct anything we've done wrong to this day, and push forward, and the only way to do that right is to get opinions and ideas from people like yourself.

I look forward to hearing your thoughts and feedback.

Thanks and best regards,

Vladislav

-----------------------------------------------------------
Vladislav S. Davidzon davidzon@thinkhost.com
Sr. Network Engineer, ThinkHost http://www.thinkhost.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


I replied: "I am not interested in hearing from hosts who try to justify their actions, past and present. I rely on the reports of customers, and currently the ones about ThinkHost are not favorable. Please do not contact me again." I got this in response.


Deb,

Does it not bother you one bit that you're posting libelous information, which is often biased due to the fact that some of our competitors are *paying* clients to badmouth us?

Look, I value your freedom of speech, and thats the only reason I haven't had the page yanked by our attorneys, and will continue to let it be, but at the same time it seems as if you're being absolutely unfair to us.

Thanks and best regards,

Vladislav

-----------------------------------------------------------
Vladislav S. Davidzon davidzon@thinkhost.com
Sr. Network Engineer, ThinkHost http://www.thinkhost.com
-----------------------------------------------------------


I had the webpage in question reviewed by an attorney after several threats from hosts, so this threat, like the others, rings quite hollow. If you couldn't recommend against something without the threat of a lawsuit, movie and restaurant reviewers would all be put out of business. In addition, I rather doubt Vladislav was banned from a forum because of the "paid" activites of his competitors. I read many of his messages on forums before I formed an opinion.

If you want to form your own opinion on ThinkHost, do a search on several forums. Current discussions include the following:
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3221
http://www.sitepointforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=9725
http://www.sitepointforums.com/showthread.php?threadid=11647

People keep posting more and more reasons to back my fact i choose tera-byte over that shambles they call a company. I think that is some funny reading :).

"Deb,

Does it not bother you one bit that you're posting libelous information, which is often biased due to the fact that some of our competitors are *paying* clients to badmouth us? "

How ironic - in one sentence, he is engaging in the very same libel of which he claims he is the victim, by making baseless claims to try and neutralize commentary of current and former clients. This is not surprising to anyone who has witnessed the activity surrounding this, nor is the sales pitch tone of the original email, which matches identically all the self-important blustering of the sitepoint threads in particular.

Deb, I believe that you were right to post this publicly. Only by scrutinizing the actions of hosts can this industry even try to clean up its act. Threats of lawsuits (thinly veiled or not) to try and limit peoples' ability to express or relate opinions do not deserve to cower away in dark recesses. They should be pulled, kicking and screaming, if necessary, into the sunlight where they can wither and die for the enjoyment of all.

I think once I have a big enough collection of threats, we can put a site up dedicated to it. It would be very funny, believe me. :)

What's funny is the fact that when a company write this, it just get worst and worst for them... About everyone would make such a letter available to the public :)

I very strongly support Ms. Suran's posting of this material, and applaud the responsible manner in which she has handled it.

As I re-read various posts in this forum, there are a variety of instances of certain hosts devoting extensive effort to apologies and excuses; explanations of why they screwed up, what they screwed up, and how they'll never do it again (but they do); and tortured pleas for understanding as to why they ignore their support mail or answer it in a year subsequent to its receipt.

These are inevitably followed by admonishments from the hosts themselves or their minions when justifiably disgruntled customers complain -- or, as I did in one case, just vote with their feet and leave the offending host.

Every last bit of this behavior on the part of such hosts is unprofessional; and, often, I suspect, the result of management by the immature and the unseasoned.

This is what is expected of a good host: Keep the servers running, and answer your support mail promptly and intelligently.

Do that, and you'll never hear anything but praise out of any of us who patronize your businesses.

Thank you, Deb, for posting that. Any time I read any of Vlad's postings I am reminded of a saying attibuted to Mark Twain. He didn't say it, but it does sound like something he might have said; "When I was 16, I thought my father was the dumbest man alive. When I turned 21, I was amazed at how much he had learned in the last 5 years."

There are too many hosts, including some more mature in years (though not temperament) than Vlad, who throw temper tantrums and shut down business sites out of spite, even if they are paid up. I've experienced that personally and have at least 3 customers who have experienced something similar with their previous hosts.

There's a well known saying that attitude is 80% of anything you do in life. I happen to agree with it. Web sites, especially for businesses, are far too important to trust to any company, regardless of size, which is immature in its regard for people. All the technical skills in the world cannot compensate for a poor attitude.

The flammability and intemperance of youth is certainly not an asset in business. Cartooney threats don't help either.

Amen.

First of all, I'd like to ask you all to not trash me on the basis that I support ThinkHost. I'm fairly new here, so I'm hoping this post won't be my last :)

Deb: What good does posting this here do? Honestly? Sure you're bashing up ThinkHost quite a lot, but for what purpose? How have they offended you? I just really don't understand what posessed you to post this, other than that you might have taken his request as a personal insult.

I read through his email and it looks pretty civil, he even went so far as to ask your opinion on what he could do to improve! If you know Vlad at all, you know it probably took something out of him to do that. An email such as this seems to me to be a private matter, not a public one. I understand he loses his cool a little in the second reply, but that's understandable.

Of those links you posted, only one of them actually reflects any sort of valid information to people. The other two are people who had FREE hosting complaining about the crackdown on freeloaders. While I too really didn't like the first email, the followups were much more useful and civil.

To be blunt, I cannot see any possible reason to post this email other than to be a "jerk". Take that as you will, I don't know you so obviously I could be wrong. However this is how I see it.

For the rest of you, I don't want you to take this personally, but WHY is this behaviour applauded? The email did not seem too entirely comical to me, perhaps it is because I understand that it is coming from a young man trying his best. Other hosts have had trouble (don't want to mention any names..) with unsatisfied clients, and that has been posted. That is fine, however in a recent post it seemed to say that it can be forgiven since "they're trying their best".

So if the employee's at ThinkHost are trying their best as well, and really trying to satisfy their customers needs, why is everyone so relentless towards them while they can be so forgiving towards others? Threads like this bear a likeness to tabloid television - which I can't stand. Maybe there are more fans of that kind of entertainment than I thought..

Ok, I just had to vent that. I'm sorry if I've offended you, and I hope we can talk through this rationally... rather than with name calling and insults as I've seen on other forums :)

jer

Originally posted by jer
Sure you're bashing up ThinkHost quite a lot, but for what purpose?

Just for starters, it might help protect others from being subjected to unprofessional behavior and unsatisfactory service.

jer:

i think you make some good points, but the problem is you and i (for example) don't know the extent to which other users or deb have dealt with thinkhost. if i was basing a decision on who to "support" in this issue, just based on this thread and the links to the three other threads, it would lean towards vlad... but at the same time, people whose opinions i have come to respect, such as annette, have also made me believe that there is more going on than has been presented here...

deb:

a minor point of contention (for me, at least) is your response to vlad's first e.mail. without sounding like an arbitrator, perhaps it would have been better to say something along the lines of:

"i have always believed that the true test of any webhost is their former and current client's opinions of them. although i appreciate your attempt to facilitate understanding between us, until i begin seeing a change in your client's opinions of you, i believe it is important to continue posting reviews of problem webhosts."

or something like that... :)

then again, i readily admit that i don't understand the full extent of the issue with thinkhost, etc... but just from a professional appearance point of view, i can see how people who are unfamliar with this board may take the view that you are just bashing thinkhost... :)

although i will add that vlad's second e.mail gave me a lot more insight into his true nature... :)

Deb: What good does posting this here do? Honestly? Sure you're bashing up ThinkHost quite a lot, but for what purpose? How have they offended you? I just really don't understand what posessed you to post this, other than that you might have taken his request as a personal insult.

It lets people see how hosts respond to negative reviews. As I said, I had no intention of posting the original e-mail. It was only the second one with it's implied threat of a lawsuit that made me decide to post it in public. Not an insult, but a threat. After being threatened over a dozen times by various hosts over the contents of that page, I have come to believe that posting their threats in public is the best way to expose their true natures. If you don't see his second e-mail as a threat, that's your interpretation, and that's fine. As I said in my first message, do your own research and form your own opinion.

And as for my reply to Vladislav, I don't believe I'm under any obligation to sugarcoat my response. I have little patience for hosts who waste everyone's time arguing with reviewers and current or former customers, trying to justify poor service instead of improving their service. Those of us who've followed these forums for a while have seen this type of behavior before. Let him spend his time improving his service rather than trying to change my mind. I only report based on what I observe, and what I observe has done nothing to change my review.

I know public support has dropped considerably for Thinkhost the past few months, but I've been perfectly happy with them since last June.

Originally posted by cisites
I know public support has dropped considerably for Thinkhost the past few months, but I've been perfectly happy with them since last June.


Somebody help me, here. I'm old, and sometimes I grow forgetful. I was going to say something or other about ostriches and sand or some such -- but I just can't recollect what it was...

The discussion at http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=1290 demonstrates part of the problem with ThinkHost and Vlad.

Even lousy hosts can have satisfied customers. Some customers have simple needs, make few changes (if any), get little traffic, and may even be oblivious if their site is down for any length of time. It's the busier, more active and popular sites that are the test of a host's mettle.

Originally posted by Deb Suran

I replied: "I am not interested in hearing from hosts who try to justify their actions, past and present. I rely on the reports of customers, and currently the ones about ThinkHost are not favorable. Please do not contact me again."


Deb, I think you sounded a little bit harsh when replied that way to thinkhost. I've heard a lot of bad, and good things about him, but let's put that away. Talking about thinkhost's letter only, I think he was truly cared about his company's reputation. His tone seemed honest and nothing was wrong with that email. Sure you can say that I don't know nothing about him (that's true) for shutting down some other websites, but for this time, I admire him.

Btw, I've known thinkhost since the date I saw http://www.lissaexplains.com on Headline news. That's a good strategy for site promotion :).

[Edited by Nam on 11-17-2000 at 07:06 PM]

Ew... I just love it when we get all touchy-feely. It's such a warm feeling.

If a host behaves like an idiot, he or she deserves to get it right between the eyes.

Based on the correspondence -- which may well barely scratch the surface of the ugly truth -- this one should have a hole the size of Jupiter there.

I must agree with Nam on this one.

Deb, I like your site because it's very honest, but I think that he probably took personal offence to your comment:

"We also recommend against ThinkHost, which is run by an 18-year old with more ego than sense. Although ThinkHost is popular on a few boards, the owner's unprofessional behavior led to his being banned from one forum, and is a cause for concern.

I think you should focus more on the service and support of ThinkHost rather than making a personal attack on the owner. Also, using the mere fact that he is 18 years old to criticise him is perhaps a form of discrimination based on age. I think you should be careful.

I do not, however, have any experience with ThinkHost, it just seems to me that the tone of that comment isn't quite appropriate. His e-mail seemed fine to me. There's a reason behind everything, and you should probably try opening some communication channels rather than just saying "Don't e-mail me again". He offered his lengthy side of the story, perhaps you should offer him yours?

deb:

i'm sorry, i think i owe you an apology... in my time spent procrastinating studying, i read through a few of thinkhosts previous messages in this forum, as well as other boards...

hmm, no comment on that, but i do feel i owe you an apology, you can say anything you want to about him... :)

There is great virtue in brevity. It tends to limit all the whining.

Originally posted by etLux
There is great virtue in brevity. It tends to limit all the whining.

Very true. But I still think Deb should do some more explaining to him rather than just discard his reply.

"i am a", thanks, but no need for an apology.

Lawrence, I call them as I see them. I don't owe anyone any explanation. I neither need nor want to develop a "working relationship" with any host except the one hosting my websites. I don't want to open any lines of communication -- what would be the point? So Vladislav can e-mail me endlessly about how hard he's working? Working hard isn't worth sh*t if you can't keep your customers happy. "But I did the work" is the battle cry of the incompetent.

I monitor a number of forums for comments about hosts, and posts by hosts themselves, and update my webpage accordingly. Vladislav's posts in this discussion say it better than I could (thanks, Duster!): http://webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=1290

And if you don't think after reading Vladislav's posts in the discussion linked to above that he has more ego than sense, well, you're entitled to your opinion.

Deb,

I think by posting such content on your site, you DO have an obligation to get all the facts first not after and if a host in question contacts you then you need to hear them out and not just say don't email me.

I have never dealt with thinkhost but you need to be fair if you are going to post such content on a web site for public display. Your attitude towards this issue is to be desired. I would suggest you investigate all contacts and issues before posting such content on a web site. That is your obligation while having a site like yours so take responsibility for your site and content.

I would like to know how many "former customers" of thinkhost contacted "you personally" with there problems, how you investigated "each" of those contacts and did you contact thinkhost on "each" issue for there side of the issues? If not then your site is just a personal opinion site and not that of fact which is what your site applies when visiting that site. If you are not investigating "each" issue and complaint then you are know better then the host you post about. You are misleading people.

In short I would like to know how many people need to complain before you post something negative or a warning? but more important the questions above on how you investigate each issue?

I personally would not use your site as a reference to finding a host, at least YOUR reviews on hosts. I see two hosts on that site that are awesome yet you post bad about. My opinion.


my 43 cents.

Yeah okay, I read the posts and he's got a bit of an ego going there... no, a pretty big ego going there. I wonder how much can change in 3 months of the web though? Just a hypothetical question.

Deb, The big comment I have about yout site is that you should make you "last updated" message far more prominent. A week is a long time on the web, and I'm sure you're aware that everything is changing constantly. A comment from a year ago means very little in my books, it may mean a lot in other people's books, but let them make up their own mind.

Also, I don't like the way you seem to personally attack people rather than businesses. I emphasise seem because that's the way it comes across to me, even though it may be intended that way.

But with that said, your site is a valuable resource, I use it myself. The only big problem I see is that some, perhaps many, of your opinions may be based on outdated information and presenting a bias that would not exist if reviewed. Maybe, anyway.

Originally posted by Xswap
Deb,

I think by posting such content on your site, you DO have an obligation to get all the facts first not after and if a host in question contacts you then you need to hear them out and not just say don't email me.

I have never dealt with thinkhost but you need to be fair if you are going to post such content on a web site for public display. Your attitude towards this issue is to be desired. I would suggest you investigate all contacts and issues before posting such content on a web site. That is your obligation while having a site like yours so take responsibility for your site and content.

I would like to know how many "former customers" of thinkhost contacted "you personally" with there problems, how you investigated "each" of those contacts and did you contact thinkhost on "each" issue for there side of the issues? If not then your site is just a personal opinion site and not that of fact which is what your site applies when visiting that site. If you are not investigating "each" issue and complaint then you are know better then the host you post about. You are misleading people.

In short I would like to know how many people need to complain before you post something negative or a warning? but more important the questions above on how you investigate each issue?

Did I miss something or is *this* the total content regarding thinkhost on Deb's site?

We also recommend against ThinkHost, which is run by an 18-year old with more ego than sense. Although ThinkHost is popular on a few boards, the owner's unprofessional behavior led to his being banned from one forum, and is a cause for concern.

If so, this is merely an observation of one person of another person's actions. I don't see anything about past customer's views, or anything that has to be investigated. It is a personal opinion site, but those opinions are based on certain issues that Deb has seen. Nothing more, nothing less.

I see two hosts on that site that are awesome yet you post bad about.

Just curious as to which two you think are awesome. Although the site is opinionated, I don't think most of the information is off the mark. Not attacking you, just curious...

Side Note: I somehow missed that Vlad was 18. It explains a bit of the posts (in the past mind you), though it's not an excuse. If Vlad is in fact 18, then a lawyer would laugh if he was asked to "yank the page". There is nothing libelous about giving an opinion.

[Edited by Chicken on 11-17-2000 at 09:10 PM]

XSwap,

Whoa there! Deb does state very clearly that she has not had personal experience with them, thus people should make their own conclusions. That said, you must remember that some hosts will deliberately mis-represent themselves (and we've all seen plenty of instances in these forums) in order to maintain a 'good PR image'.

Would you perhaps like to name the two hosts you have been satisfied with?

Deb : FYI, SitePoint has switched from DN to RackSpace.

Originally posted by Lawrence
I must agree with Nam on this one.

Deb, I like your site because it's very honest, but I think that he probably took personal offence to your comment:

"We also recommend against ThinkHost, which is run by an 18-year old with more ego than sense. Although ThinkHost is popular on a few boards, the owner's unprofessional behavior led to his being banned from one forum, and is a cause for concern.

I think you should focus more on the service and support of ThinkHost rather than making a personal attack on the owner. Also, using the mere fact that he is 18 years old to criticise him is perhaps a form of discrimination based on age. I think you should be careful.

I do not, however, have any experience with ThinkHost, it just seems to me that the tone of that comment isn't quite appropriate. His e-mail seemed fine to me. There's a reason behind everything, and you should probably try opening some communication channels rather than just saying "Don't e-mail me again". He offered his lengthy side of the story, perhaps you should offer him yours?

LAWRENCE!!
Travel all the forums....do a search...thinkhost.com
Read the posts..over and again okay? You obviously have no clue how this person has represented himself and his co. over the last several months----Quite a shocker! Im all for younger folk being in business and know some that are quite talented..IN THIS SAME TOKEN..I have kids older than Vlad, and some are involved in internet biz too--BUT--if they EVER came across AS arrogant as this person, well they wouldnt have an ass left

You must understand and ultimately remember that a site will be biased in some small way, no matter who writes it. This applies to almost any 'advice' site on the Net. It is up to you, the consumer, to make judgements on whether you follow the advice or you go against it at your own peril.

I say on my webpage, "Hosts about which people frequently post complaints on the forums and newsgroups we monitor, but with which we do not have any personal experience, include..."


I would like to know how many "former customers" of thinkhost contacted "you personally" with there problems, how you investigated "each" of those contacts and did you contact thinkhost on "each" issue for there side of the issues? If not then your site is just a personal opinion site and not that of fact which is what your site applies when visiting that site. If you are not investigating "each" issue and complaint then you are know better then the host you post about. You are misleading people.

I monitor. I do not investigate, nor do I claim to. Please do not put words in my mouth. I didn't say any of the words you quoted above.

I do not accept personal complaints via e-mail from individuals because they may be out to hurt a host on the sly. Nor am I interested in hearing hosts praise or excuse themselves via e-mail. I look at what is being posted in public. Often other forum regulars see things that I miss when comments are posted in public, and I rely on those additional eyes and minds. When complaints are made in public other people will come out of the woodwork to join in on the complaints, or to defend a host they're happy with. It's important to see where the weight of opinion falls. I'm willing to bet most of us had never heard of GX Hosting before September, when a discussion by unhappy customers on another forum grew to over 100 messages.


Deb, The big comment I have about yout site is that you should make you "last updated" message far more prominent. A week is a long time on the web, and I'm sure you're aware that everything is changing constantly. A comment from a year ago means very little in my books, it may mean a lot in other people's books, but let them make up their own mind.

That's the date of the last major update (usually a re-write). The original draft was only one paragraph. Minor updates are made at least weekly. If you check the date, in fact, you'll see it was last updated this evening.


Deb : FYI, SitePoint has switched from DN to RackSpace.

Thanks, BC.

Yes, Chicken, that's right. But the large number of web hosts out there really allows you to get a list and chop hosts from it with one bad comment - like one on forumhosts.com. As such, a personal opinion like that has a lot more weight behind it than it really deserves.

With that said, as long as Deb keeps the page up to date, it's not a problem. As the media presumption goes - if you get one bad comment, you can safely assume that 500 other customers weren't satisfied. The only problem comes when the comment is "incorrect" for lack of a better word, where the host is being punished in a big way (chop chop chop) for such a little thing that has been quelled by the sands of time.

This guy obviously went overboard a bit with that long thread in this board. Perhaps that won't heal over for months yet - but others might be suffering from outdated information on host-comment sites.

That's a fairly long ramble, but the main point is: [b]just keep the comments up to date[\b]. If you do, then I'm at least happy on that point.

Lawrence,

Well, let's just say Vlad hasn't made an appearance on any forum since those long threads and apologies he's made. And that was a few months ago. Unfortunately they're encountering new problems with downtime and problems with their free web dev sites not posting the appropriate banners - check out http://www.sitepointforums.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=10 and you'll find plenty of Thinkhost threads (including more Thinkhost flames).

That said, business attitude doesn't take as long to remedy as personal attitude does (which takes a life time...)

LAWRENCE!!
Travel all the forums....do a search...thinkhost.com
Read the posts..over and again okay? You obviously have no clue how this person has represented himself and his co. over the last several months----Quite a shocker! Im all for younger folk being in business and know some that are quite talented..IN THIS SAME TOKEN..I have kids older than Vlad, and some are involved in internet biz too--BUT--if they EVER came across AS arrogant as this person, well they wouldnt have an ass left

Yes Martie, you must have missed my posts a bit later. I read that stuff, yes he appears to be arrogant, yes he's got an ego, yes he's misrepresenting his company. I still don't think personal attacks are appropriate. Attack his business, it will reflect on him.

Easy, Martie..... Take a chill pill :)

Vlad is permanently banned from SP, and he can't see any threads in the forums. He's not banned here, but let's just say he wouldn't be exactly welcomed back here with open arms...

Which reminds me : why has a certain (currently active) user recently modified his 'WWW' url from ThinkHost to GlobalReaction? Does this user have a connection to TH? Curious to know....

Quaaludes and Prozac are available in the lobby.

And now, please continue to enjoy the entertainment...

Chicken, my post is on the whole site not just thinkhost.

Anyway i like the stuff on the traceroute topic.

Chicken:

Concentric
Hurricane Electric


my 44 cents.

Indeed this has been entertaining, but I'm off until Sunday. G'nite, and enjoy your weekend, everyone.

Originally posted by Xswap
...my 44 cents.

Inflation at work.

You're welcome, Deb. While I didn't post much in that particular discussion, I do recall an unwarranted arrogance and a glaring inability to understand and respect basic tenets of copyrights. I also recall a ludicrous statement to the effect that Vlad believed honoring the copyright notice would give the creators of the discussion program copyrights over messages posted by his site's visitors. Instead of acknowledging that he made a huge mistake in interpretation, he continued with his assertion that he was justified in his actions.

Whether you want to attribute it to his age or immaturity, clearly he needs to grow up in either or both ways. His immaturity and attitude, as well as actions, are hardly likely to inspire confidence in hosting with him and his company, despite his protestations of excellence and being better than everyone else.

He does not play the role of martyr well, though he has made himself out to be one on mumerous occasions. He does excel, however, in the role of pariah. He's a natural.

Don't get me wrong here Martie, I know what you're saying and it's all possible. The guys obviously a bit of a $%#@*.

I'm just concerned about misinformation and comments on hosts being unfair. Even if it is personal opinion. Basically, I'd like to promote some more objective rather than subjective comment. Sounds like ThinkHost got it's fair share, however, I'm not arguing that they didn't.

Duster: I never thought something so funny could be so true :)

Lawrence,

As someone quite knowledgeable about humor, I can assure you that some of the funniest stories are drawn from real life. Some of those comments could appear in a "stupid things that people say" comedy show.

It's only funny if you don't have to rely on people like that, especially with a business concern.

Originally posted by Lawrence
Don't get me wrong here Martie, I know what you're saying and it's all possible. The guys obviously a bit of a $%#@*.

I'm just concerned about misinformation and comments on hosts being unfair. Even if it is personal opinion. Basically, I'd like to promote some more objective rather than subjective comment. Sounds like ThinkHost got it's fair share, however, I'm not arguing that they didn't.


The problem is Deb is exactly correct--Thost is a BIG jerk, an arrogant one at that, and many othet things that I dont care to comment on---having said that and I wil defend Vlad's age here cause I know another host that has a string of about 100 resellers that CLAIM to be all that and more...and really its all very SAD indeed....really is!!
BC--> I just love Aussies, always have always will--but really I dont need a chill pill!! Im speakin my opinion just like Annette or any other regular would here..and Ive been gone for over a month....have a good one!!
Lawrence---if ya are looking for hosting I really recommend one of the 2----Vlad, at thinkpost (oops---thinkhost) or Steve at super.nu---depends on what kind of plan ya need :))

Originally posted by Martie
...and really its all very SAD

*Sniff* Personally, I just can't stop weeping. Somebody pass the tissues... *sniff*.

Originally posted by Xswap
Concentric
Hurricane Electric

Had a friend who worked at concentric. She seem s to like them as her site is still there, but they are expensive, and I don't think what she is getting is worth the price she's paying. I always thought of them as like getting webhosting from Earthlink or AOL.

Hurriacan Electric is a place I considered a long time ago. I think I sent them emails that were never returned.

Re: Thinkhost, I don't really have much of an opinion. The posts made were quite sickening to read, and that hurt the image of the company (something Vlad claimed he didn't care about at the time). I've seen the apology, and since it really doesn't affect me either way, I don't really care. But I know many people use their services, so hopefully it is all good for them.

BC: to answer your question, I recently took over support over at globalreaction.com . A personal site of mine i made ages ago is hosted by ThinkHost, however since it sucks (seriously, it's *that* bad) i didn't keep it as my http://www. Now that im helping with globalreaction it'll be my WWW :)

just 2 clear things up...

Originally posted by etLux
Originally posted by Martie
...and really its all very SAD

*Sniff* Personally, I just can't stop weeping. Somebody pass the tissues... *sniff*.

Here is your tissue----etLux---sob sob!

Thanks, Martie. Yer a pal.

I think I'll be able to go on now. It'll be tough -- but I think I can do it.

good for you-----have fun

Martie : heheehheeh. Don't you worry : I was just trying to inject some sense into the thread (of which it needed a fraction more to keep it on keel).

Jer : thanks for the clarification. Case closed.

What was this thread about, anyway? Anyone remember that far back?

Wow, I don't look at a thread for a couple of hours and it goes from 4 posts to 4 pages.

I have to say that Vlad did react in a bad way over the copyright issue and should have admited defeat - but I guess like most people at the time he didn't want to give up the fight and admit he was wrong. In some ways this would be a good sign to me if I were looking for hosting - I mean someone who likes to keep on fighting, getting your point across, getting things done and not giving up until they are done.

If you ask me (You didn't but your going to get my opinion anyway :)) age has nothing to do with things and posting that Vlad is only 18 is a bit bad if you ask me, people should not be judged by age no matter how young or old - I hope that we live in a society where actions count (OK so in this case the actions were a bit off as well).

Also most of the people having a go at TH now are people who were given free accounts and were not keeping their end of the bargain (Which would get me pretty mad to), the poeple who kept their end of the bargain get to keep their accounts.

I think the one thing we have to remember before we go around people :smash: people is how we would feel and react if people started having a go at our business (I know hostmatters have been through it - but that was different because nearly everybody knows the history of the person having a go at their business).

So everyone stop the :bash: and :beer:.

As far as I know, the people complaining about TH are a mix of free and paid clients, not just people who have been accused of "freeloading", to use a term from another forum.

Hurricane Electric
I hosted with HE. Can you say slooooooooooooowww? If I wanted to update my site I had to do it before 7:00 am because later in the day I couldn't connect via FTP. The poor speed at which pages loaded was totally unacceptable as well. I've never been on a server that overcrowded, and can't imagine trying to run a forum there. Tech support, once they actually got back to you, was fine.

Concentric
I have complained repeatedly to Concentric about spam originating from their servers, with no response. That makes them a spam haven in my book.

using the mere fact that he is 18 years old to criticise him is perhaps a form of discrimination based on age.
ThinkHost is run by an 18-year-old. That's a fact. I don't believe it can be construed as a "form of discrimination based on age" to make that fact public.

"Does it not bother you one bit that you're posting libelous information, which is often biased due to the fact that some of our competitors are *paying* clients to badmouth us? "

Annette, have you really came across this?

That was thinkhost's quote to Deb, not mine. I have no idea what he's talking about - I consider it just another indication that while he continually claims to be the victim (even though everthing he's done or that has happened is the consequence of his own action) that he doesn't hesitate to make the same kind of baseless, libellous claims he's crying about. It's a rather self-serving hypocrisy.

The thought that companies would pay their clients to badmouth other companies makes my stomach turn.

David, part of your .sig is not coming through - might want to check that.

Ever hear of Occam's (Ockham's) Razor? What is more likely? That companies are paying their clients to badmouth other companies - or that someone is just offering that up as an excuse to explain away concerns that people have? In this specific instance, there is absolutely no indication that what thinkhost claims is valid. In the broader arena, no one has ever suggested or found evidence that any company has engaged in such activity.

Have nothing really to add, just wanted to post somthing

David? Is that for me....

The fact that he's 18 should not even be an issue here. It surprises me that some have made that a big issue. It's simply discrinatory to accuse him of incompetence base wholey or partially on his age. It's like the leaders of our country who prevented women and black from voting untill the 20's just because of their race and gender. Maybe people like Bill Gate or Tiger Woods will be no where today if people had told them that there where too young to achieve their dreams!

Yannick Bandy
http://www.hosting24-7.com
Reseller Plans Starting at$3.95
No Set Fees

Sorry, Derrick, I was typing an email response to a client of ours named David and then replied to you....need caffeine....neeeed caffeine.. :)

Ah Its ok. I thought to myself...surely she remembers my name and would not call me David :-)

*chicken runs tube from his Mr. Coffee down to Florida*

The fact that he's 18 should not even be an issue here.
I disagree. His age, coupled with his obvious immaturity and poor communication skills, evidenced in his own messages posted on various forums, say much too much about him to ignore.

Originally posted by Deb Suran
The fact that he's 18 should not even be an issue here.
I disagree. His age, coupled with his obvious immaturity and poor communication skills, evidenced in his own messages posted on various forums, say much too much about him to ignore.

I don't understand how his age comes into play here. I know many who are as old as I who are very immature and on the other hand many youngsters that are great at showing age does not equal maturity. I may be wrong, but isn't the owner of UltraSpeedUSA 18? I might have my companies mixed here, but I know of one host that just turned 18 and has great reviews on his company. :stickout

I believe that Vlad does display poor communication skills, but that can be overcome with experience in the future. His personality shows that he will not quit no matter how many try to make his company out to be bad, that to me is a good sign of character.

His email to you was strange, if I were a host I wouldn't spend my time trying to gain the loyalty of someone who isn't concerned. He shouldn't have even replied to you and respected that request in the first place.

I am not defending ThinkHost, I have never even used their services. I was just agreeing that his age should not be of concern. I think it is good that the boy is willing to keep going and to try to get better. There is nothing wrong with that.

I have also read the posts made by Vlad and found them quite amusing and sometimes frightening. I would not use his services because of the fact he soiled his own reputation (IMHO) and really in this case wasn't anyone elses fault but his own. I know there are people right now using ThinkHost who wouldn't agree with me, just how I didn't agree that True Hosting was a bad host to my website. We should hope that he learns from these mistakes and grows as a person.

:sleeping: Now I'm really going because my husband is giving me the evil eye!

Originally posted by Annette
Why is it always someone else's fault? People should know that they have to take responsibility for their actions.

Although certainly not the exclusive province of the young, this seems to be a chronic problem with the rash of infants who've jumped into the hosting industry lately.

They whine, they dodge, and they blame absolutely everyone for their problems but the people truly responsible -- themselves. Then when called on their immature, irresponsible behavior, they scream bloodly murder like the callow children they are, again trying to shift all blame to those justly chastising them.

Look, if you haven't got the experience and maturity yet to run a business, go work for someone who does until you, yourself, acquire that experience and maturity.

In the meantime, purporting to provide a business service and failing to deliver it is fraud.

[Edited by etLux on 11-19-2000 at 10:53 PM]

However there is one thing you need to think about.

**
The moment you think you know everything you might want to sit back and find out what you are doing wrong :-)


In the world of self-employment there is nothing as safe as being able to handle everything. Every day is a learning adventure :-)

[Edited by Broadreach on 11-19-2000 at 10:35 PM]

Btw, I've known thinkhost since the date I saw http://www.lissaexplains.com on Headline news. That's a good strategy for site promotion .

Just something you might be interested in...I'm no longer hosted by StinkHost.

[Edited by Lissa on 02-22-2001 at 11:43 AM]

I don't see myself on either side of this issue but I do not like any trends toward just hearing from one side. So, I am interested in hearing from hosts as well as clients. Negative issues are sometimes resolved that way and it is one reason I really like this discussion forum where within the boundaries of reasonable rules all parties may be heard. As long as someone is civil in their tone I don't mind reading the post. I really don't like those flames we get into, but, it is not my intent to point any un-civil finger.

Regardless of what any of you say or how you say it, it is all a learning experience for me. Thanks.

Gary