Does age really matter when you are doing some business like designing or programing or hosting or anything else for that matter??

It really shouldn't matter, but some people (particularly in the slightly more 'aged' ranges) still tend to have annoying perceptions that age does matter.

It's not as prevalent in IT/Net related fields, as it's widely acknowledged that teens are part of the fundamental demographics that push the Net.

As they all say, I like to let my work speak for itself :D

Some of the other 15-20 year olds in hosting who hang around can comment.

I think that age does not matter IF you handle yourself professionally.

The major problem I have seen with younger people starting a business is that they do not have their bases covered, so when things go wrong (ie your support dindles or you miss your deadline) it becomes apparent that you are in school (or whatever) and that is when you get a "XXX business is run by kids...stay away" rep.

This is the bottom line, and I do not mean to sound harse here, but for most people, their web sites are their business. Your customers do not want to hear that you have exams, prom, a date, homecoming etc. when their site is down. We realize that you deserve to have a life, but business is business.

My advice: have your bases covered. If you are thinking about doing this (or any business) make sure you have enough people to cover your business at ALL times. If you are going to design, do not take on more business that you can handle. Be honest.

Also, keep in mind that people have been burnt in this area before, and it may leave a bad taste in their mouth about trying it again. Your professionalism will be the ONLY thing that can convince them that you were different from their past experience.

The other major hurdle you will have, if you are younger than 18, is legality. In my state, if I were to sign up with you you, and you are under 18, the contract would not be valid because you can not hold a minor to a contract. If you start a business and that is the law in your state, the promises you are making hold no water...so make sure an adult is behind the business...otherwise, you will lose business and legally you may face some problems.

Originally posted by BC

Some of the other 15-20 year olds in hosting who hang around can comment.


Ummm, why would you ask the young people to comment on it??!! Gee, I wonder what they will say?


It is a legal problem, plain and simple. If I was hosted on a kid's server, and he "disappeared" with my money, the courts would tell me "you shouldn't do business with minors, it's your own fault"...and for that reason many people will not do business with poeple who can't be held responsible in court.


When Bil Gates clients found out he was 15 when he made the traffic lights software, about 80% of his business left.

I must agree with Greg

I want to make something clear: In my post above, it was geared to the person 18-22 (college age - still in school). Then it dawned on me, after I typed all that out, is that the person may actually be under 18...which in my state, is illegal (so I rarely think of it). Minors can not enter into legal agreements, period, end of story. However, a law is trying to be passed making the parents responsible.

It blows my mind how there seems to be no age limitations to anything. As long as you have a credit card, you can do just about anything.

You should not be able to register a domain name, get hosting, set up credit cards with a company like InstaBill until you are 18, and just because you are 18 does not mean you are responsible enough to handle a business.

I assumed he was talking about a host like GX Hosting or ThinkHost, where the owners are legal, but young.

Well, see, I am 16, soon to be 17 [ and I mean really soon ], and I have worked on a few projects. For some, I have stayed awake for 4 days on a stretch and completed them to the level that the cleint wants. Thats not the point anyways, dunno why I thought I would put it in.

Anyways, the point is that, I spend all my time trying to put something together for the cleint. He gives me a deadline of say 5days, which is enough for the job discussed. Once he gives me the work, everyday he comes up with something new. And he needs the work done by the 5th day. And I couldnt cope with it. I mean, this guy wanted to make a guestbook originally, and then jumped to webhosting all of a sudden. Thats what I am talking about. Things totally different to each other. And then he blames my AGE for the work not being completed. I mean, explain this to me.

The above is a 100% accurate description of what happened to me. I aint making it up or anything.

So explain this to me.

Well, that's what happens when you don't get the particulars of an agreement in writing.

I know others that have made scripts, the client keeps adding functions, thinking it's no big deal, then complains when it takes longer than expected.

I no longer make websites or scripts for anyone unless I get something in writing, and i'm paid before I make it.

Sounds to me like your age has nothing to do with it, and he's using it as an excuse. In this case, I do not think age matters.

I just needed to vent. Feels much better now. :D

I do believe that age matters at a certain point. Of course, this is a huge generalization, which mean that there are exceptions (thats good).

I will take our company as an example.

When Can-Host was first planned, only my boss was in it, with a friend or 2 to dot he planning. None of them were over 25 years old.

The first guy that came in was 15-16 years old, and even though he did a great job, he was not dedicated enough, didn't care enough... He was just not yet ready and too young.

Then I came in, (I was 18, I'm now 19, near 20) and I believe that I did a good job... Most likely better than any 40 years old ol' timer out there.

I believe that you can't judge someone by its age. I was much more serious at 16 than some people are at 25 years old. What you can trust is the previous behavior. I might not be the most serious all the time guy, but I know that I am working well, on time and fast.

What else do you need?

One point though... I usually won't give out my age unless explicitely asked, because some people ar scared... and other are not at all. In fact, if it were so easy to start this company, it was because my boss and his friends were all young, and the popular view of a succesfull internet company include young adults in it.

So... Age does not matter. The way you handle things and react to the situations does.

Yes, age matters, dammit -- including the age of those who operate hosting and related businesses.

Age is the vehicle by which one gains experience.

Who would you rather have operating your server? Pick one:

A.)

An eighteen-year-old who has virtually no experience in running a business and keeping a server up

B.)

A seasoned veteran with solid skills in running a company and dealing well with clients, who's been actively and successfully surmounting the day-to-day technical problems of server administration for years

If you picked A.) you need your head examined.

Well..dare I say it? I'm 13.

etLux:

Why are you saying that an 18 year old has no experience in web hosting or managing a server? I run my own dedicated server..haven't messed up yet.

I find that extremly hard to believe..

Take Bill Gates for example.. ;) How old was he when he started - how much money does he have now? He knew how to deal with clients and run his business, Microsoft. Many other people aged under 18 do too.

Anybody can run a successful Web site. Mine has made $200+ some days from advertising etc.

Age doesn't matter, support, time and dedication matter.

WOAH THERE etLux.

I don't necessarily see age as the problem (aside from the legal aspect of it regarding contracts etc)

However, What should play a part in anything is professionalism and experience.

I might be 18, but I've been in webhosting in 1 form or another for the past 4 years.

I let my experience speak for its-self :).





[Edited by DanielP on 11-17-2000 at 04:18 PM]

mkaufman, DanielP...

You have just demonstrated one of the problems of youth.

You jumped the gun, impetuously responding to my post without reading exactly what it said:

To wit...

An eighteen-year-old who has virtually no experience in running a business and keeping a server up

As you both have experience, it plainly doesn't apply to you -- yet you assumed it did, anyway.

Ah okay..

I see what you mean now.

Sorry about that :)

LOL... mkaufman, being young is something of which we have all been guilty.

Not to worry. It doesn't last long.

I admire both your attitude and your industry.

well i finally registered... :)

when i first started reading the forum, i was suprised at the maturity level of a lot of people who use this board...

i was more suprised at the ages of some of them... unfortunately, i think age is a negative factor in a lot of decisions... as etLux points out, when you are given no more information than age for someone who could be responsible for the success or failure of your business, you do readily take that into account...

having said that, i know a few people on this board that i would trust with my business (well, if i ever graduate and spend time on it...) just from the fact that i've seen them respond to adversity with maturity and sense, even though they are young.

I beg to differ Et.

I interperated this entire statement

"Yes, age matters, dammit -- including the age of those who operate hosting and related businesses.

Age is the vehicle by which one gains experience.

Who would you rather have operating your server? Pick one:

A.)

An eighteen-year-old who has virtually no experience in running a business and keeping a server up "

As a generalization of 18 year olds.

I did not jump the gun as you say by responding to

"An eighteen-year-old who has virtually no experience in running a business and keeping a server up "

That catagory could EASILY apply to someone who is 40 years old and has no experience what so ever in running a company. However, you targeted it towards the younger audience.

A more approiate statement would have been

"An 18 year old who due to his age might not have any experience in running a company"

but then again "a person who does not have any experience running a company" can apply to any and every age group out there.

Originally posted by etLux
Who would you rather have operating your server? Pick one ...

Is this a remedial reading class?

It was a choice between two options.

Like so many things, the answer to this question is compound and complex. It depends as much on the service being sought as on the individual who might do it. For long term service like hosting, under age people are at a severe disadvantage. I would advise against hosting with any company where the principal as not legally an adult. It is an unbalanced situation as it is. Compounding it by dealing with minors only makes it worse.

As regards other matters, it is more an issue of emotional maturity than chronological age. There are responsible, mature young adults that handle business matters in a business like manner. Many advancements in various computer (and many other) fields have been made by such people.

There are also many young people to whom computer services are a hobby and of lesser importance in their lives. Raging hormones, emotional concerns, and many other things may play a greater role in their young lives than acting responsibly. Their response to problems faced by a customer might be "tough luck" (or a cruder alternative).

Experience alone means little (in general). In fields other than computers, some one with 20 years of experience may just have 1 year of experience they've repeated 19 times. They have stopped learning and rest on their laurels (aka knowledge base).

It all comes down to the individual and their own emotional maturity. Like some here, I was mature at an early age and I accomplished many things in business that old timers (people in their 30's to 60s) could only dream of, and most didn't have the imagination to dream of some of the things I did.

Age is the measure many people use to judge other attributes. It is more accurate to judge those attributes directly, not to mention fair.

I've gotta say that Age Does Matter - but not in the sense that most people like to say. There are upsides and downsides to any age.

For example, it seems to me that it's the young people (teens + ppl in early 20s) tend to have more creative ideas when it comes to working with other people (partners, etc), or their visitors/members. They haven't had the failures older people might have slung on their backs. Thus they are able to work on their projects with an optimistic view that everything will work out.

The older people (not sure exactly how old) however seem to like to stick to the security of convention. Sure, it might be safer (for a while) but unorthodox methods have a far greater potential for success. There are simply too many people all trying to grab one thing.

Anyway, that might seem a little biased towards the young'ns, but hey, I am one :) Seriously though, I don't know if things like this can be gauged. It really depends on what you're looking for.

jer

As a certain baseball player is reputed to have said...

If there wasn't any kids, everybody on the team'd be old guys.

May I ask how old you are, etLux? :)

Ancient.

Originally posted by etLux
Is this a remedial reading class?

It was a choice between two options.


No, i was replying to where you stated that

You have just demonstrated one of the problems of youth.

You jumped the gun, impetuously responding to my post without reading exactly what it said:


I responded explaining my reasonings for responding the way I did. You again generalized that because I responded the way I did I was jumping the gun etc.

=)

I urge you to read my post :)

It is not about age, it is about experience, which is offen referred as 'age'.

However, as some pointed before, young people learn faster and often have cool ideas. Older people are stable, serious, but usually learn slower and are less inovative.

I seriously that the fact that I am 19 years old had any quality impact on the service I give to my customer. I have about 5 years of experience with design, programmation, etc... and around 10 years+ with computers.

I believe that I am able to do the same job, if not more than any other adult with the same experience.

You have to consider the fact that computer is a pretty young science, thus one can't have 20 years of experience in running apache and linux... it simply wasn't possible.

I believe that later on it might be a factor... right now? no way.

I can do web pages, graphics, javascript, html, flash (web design), PHP, a bit of Perl, C, C++, Basic (yuk) (programmation), I understand fully apache, sendmail, bind, proftpd, ldap, amongst other linux related stuff (system admin).

What does a 40 years old can do better? Considering that I am also studying in my last year of science at school, working full time?
;)

I also can program in PHP & some C++.

I know A LOT about Apache, Linux etc also.

Laudable levels of achievement at a young age, all.

Now, to get to a more serious matter: Can any of you juggle?

I've been learning to juggle for almost forty years.





[Edited by etLux on 11-17-2000 at 06:04 PM]

Juggle..hmm sorta off topic but oh well :)

I can juggle two tennis balls, my hands work better on the keyboard though :D

Actually, my crack about juggling was on topic, in that it was leading to a point.

Learning is an ongoing process. No matter the caliber of your mind, it takes decades to become truly proficient and seasoned at any complex endeavor.

There is no short route to an integrated overview and full understanding... in fact, the longer one works at these things, the more completely one is convinced that there is no such route at all -- nor, perhaps, should there be.

What one learns instead is, that there is always vastly more to learn. It is solely the privilege of youth to think otherwise.

Hmmm. I think I have to agree with ALL the posts made. I kinda concluded one thing, its not experience, that matters so greatly. Simply because, some one might have the expierence of 40+yrs in system administration, BUT he/she might be used to the "old ways". There also, might be times when all one needs is experience, but there are times when one does not need the expierence, but the expertise. So it all boils down to "How good you are at what you do". Age, Sex, Name, Location, Religion, etc, none of that other stuff matters.

Yes, but you nobody has played with servers, linux, apache etc for "decades"

Originally posted by mkaufman
Yes, but you nobody has played with servers, linux, apache etc for "decades"

Speak for yourself, my friend.

UNIX goes back to 1969 -- and many of us AT&T'ers with it.

See: History of the UNIX Operating System

http://www.greenwich.ac.uk/~mi02/UNIXhelp1.3/Pages/concepts/history.html

Originally posted by etLux
Laudable levels of achievement at a young age, all.

Now, to get to a more serious matter: Can any of you juggle?

I've been learning to juggle for almost forty years.

YES!

I am only juggling for 2 months (you can search and see that I mentionned it before ;)

I am able to juggle with 3 balles and do about any figure... learning 4 balles now :)

Have you ever tried jugglign with flaming balls? It is _very_ nice :)

Flaming balls?

~shudders~

There are some things one hopes never to have lit on fire.

Even though unix has been around for a long time... No one can try and tell me he is a 20 years old web engineer! Web didn't exist by then.

Thus was my point about the relatively young nature of the Internet. Having 40 years of experience with unix is worthless against the new hack against a IIS server. It didn't exist then, and thus you need to learn it again.

Of course, old timer have more experience in that they've seen more... Does all they saw before still apply today? I doubt it ;)

Originally posted by etLux
Flaming balls?


Yes :)
1- I'm talking about the balls you juggle with.
2- You wear asbestos gloves. Try it, especially if you've been juggling for 40 years... you should be able to avoid burning yourself.

And that is a technology you should know, being old, because it existed in the king times. I am young, and I know how to use them.

:) Will I get my 'age does not matter' point through?

Experience matters, attitude matters, qualification matters. Age? nope.

Does all they saw before still apply today?[/B]

The fact that you ask such a question is telling. Those who do not study history, etc.

Just as long as you all realise that a discussion about age is all a huge generalisation then I'm happy :)

Remember too that "experienced" in net terms is considered about 3 years, and "expert" is considered 5+. That's conservative, last I read something about it it was 2 and 3 years respectively.

And just as not all 18+ year olds are capable of running a business, not all 18- year olds are incapable of running a business. The 18 year old mark is just a black and white border for legal purposes.

Originally posted by etLux
The fact that you ask such a question is telling. Those who do not study history, etc. [/B]

Will studying history help you to operate your computer in a good and serious manner?

Studying it will help you understand the past mistakes and avoid them again. When the past is only 10 years ago, knowing what happened 40 years ago... is useless :)

Agreed again... I will say it again, etLux: Age does not matter. What matter is the way that you re-act, what you know and what you don't know. Do you know what is important or do you know what is important as well as thousands of useless things?

Originally posted by Félix C.Courtemanche
Originally posted by etLux
The fact that you ask such a question is telling. Those who do not study history, etc.

Will studying history help you to operate your computer in a good and serious manner?[/B]

I don't know about studying the history so much; but living it surely has.

Very profound etLux.

You also have to look at sufficient experience. 40 years of experience, great, but 3 years experience is probably sufficient (for many people) to be delving into an online business.

Of course, personality is the big thing. Maturity and professionalism perhaps more so.

Originally posted by Lawrence
Of course, personality is the big thing.

You're absolutely right. And I've got just the thing to assist in this...

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03X0925921X6566992/qid=974515974/sr=1-1/ref=aps_sr_a_2_1/106-8153093-7108410

Originally posted by etLux
Originally posted by Lawrence
Of course, personality is the big thing.

You're absolutely right. And I've got just the thing to assist in this...

http://s1.amazon.com/exec/varzea/ts/exchange-glance/Y03X0925921X6566992/qid=974515974/sr=1-1/ref=aps_sr_a_2_1/106-8153093-7108410





A powerful book, but in the end, you can have all the knowledge in the world, but not know how to implement what you know. Thats the key to success is "to know how".

Geez... I feel so misunderstood... heheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

Originally posted by etLux
Geez... I feel so misunderstood... heheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee


Me is confused :confused:

Not to worry, kunal. I understand this confusion problem is almost certain to stop within the first hundred years or so.

I was hoping it would be solved in a decade or so.. hmm

etlux -

I can't believe you directed me to that godawful book...

Next you're going to start posting the merits of Rand or Machiavelli... or even http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0446602744/qid=974522092/sr=1-4/105-0299888-8721563

<shudder> :-)

I think to respond the initial question (about being blamed for one's age by a client) - your age has nothing to do with it in this situation, from what I can tell.

If there's one truism in the world of freelancing and consulting, it's this: Clients will always change their minds.

The secret is ensure that when they change their minds, you get paid for it. A contract is definitely crucial.

If you're working without a contract, it really depends how much you really want to keep the client happy - if they're making completely irrational and poorly thought out demands on you, though, and you want out - get the job finished as well as you can, get paid and leave.

Sometimes you just have to draw the line somewhere.

Neil

theNonsuch:

Geez. I really hate it when I have to explain my own jokes; as in the case of my link to that "godawful" book... lol.

As for your own link to "The Rules : Time Tested Secrets for Capturing the Heart of Mr. Right" -- well, hey, whatever works for you, Neil...

<rant>
Should age matter? no Does it matter is real life? yes. Most people in the industry really don't care too much about age. I for one could really care less. I don't have a problem working with someone classified as "very young" if they are responsible. In a perfect world people should be judged by their character. However in case you haven't noticed we don't live in a perfect world. Life isn't perfect.... deal with it
</rant>

Nick (cpanel guy)

etlux, I have some difficulties what you are tying to demonstrate.

I believe that the topic initially was about internet & computer related business. In this case, I lived it probably as much as you.

I had commodore 64 when it was THE computer... as well as 8083 then 386, then 486, then pentium and so on...

The poitn is not all the computers in themselves, but the fact that since I am 5 years old, computers have populated my living. You saw it coming a lot more than I did.

but the experience and what is required here is not about computer history, but about how you do in the current world. Currently, computers are not using 15 years old technology. It is always a few months old... and a year or 2 is really old.

Does it matter, I don't know. You seems to think that it does. I personally think that if you associate age with experience and quality of work, you are definately wrong. Yes, in some case (perhapse a good part), young people behave an expected way, old people behave another way. Are you behaving like everyone else the same age as you? Most likely many are stupid, some other are much more serious, polite, sage than you.

Generalization here is not good, simply because it's not true. We, here, have the opportunity of dealing with people that we don't know their age, sex, color, language. (I am definately not your usual US geek). Why trying to bind quality with age, when it is not true and when it can be avoided.

On one side, generalization tends to say that adults are serious, can be trusted, but are slow and not innovative.

On the other side, young people are not to be trusted, but work a lot, have a lot of ideas, are upgrading the internet, whatever.

These concepts are outdated. Judge someone by what he does and not what he is (???)

I don't know, it just seems better.

Originally posted by Félix C.Courtemanche
...young people are not to be trusted

Absolutely true! I agree with that completely. I was one, so I should know.

Look, seriously, I do not equate age with the automatic endowment upon its incumbent of quality (or quantity) of knowledge or experience. I never said that, anywhere.

You can be an old idiot very much as readily and spectacularly as you can be a young idiot; and even the briefest surveillance of the world around you will prove that in spades.

This all started (read back) when I suggested a choice between an administrator who is a young idiot and someone with experience and some maturity when choosing a hosting company.

Nowhere did I say, ever, in any way, that all young people are idiots. (I am, however, having second thoughts about that, as it appears absolutely every single young person here misread, didn't read, or misinterpreted what I did say.)

Still and all, I must admit it's great fun getting such a rise out of all of you... lol.

Ain't old folks fun?

Originally posted by etLux
Ain't old folks fun?

hmmm... generally, no :)

I agree that your first post didn't say that, but after some reply, your post left that impression, thus lead to these discussions.

It is easy to take only a part of one's speach and use that as an argument. It is harder to reply to a full argumentation and hide behind this fact: You seem to have a lot of fun in this, which is just why it is serious.

The general opinion that we gave here was that the age did not matter, that the work achieved did. Of course, a 9 years old kid can't do it. A 70 years old man mostly can't either.

Anyway, be glad that this in the 'General' forum, it surely slipped away :)

A.)
An eighteen-year-old who has virtually no experience in running a business and keeping a server up
B.)
A seasoned veteran with solid skills in running a company and dealing well with clients, who's been actively and successfully surmounting the day-to-day technical problems of server administration for years
If you picked A.) you need your head examined.
That implied that all kids were idiot and all adults good, to me. ???

There are laws against beating up on old people, you know.

Here. Take my wallet. You can even have my shoes. Just don't take my false teeth -- I hate having to gum my cereal in the morning.

etLux, I suspect that I am as crusty as you in terms of 'life experience'.

Being old means that your body continues to make promises that your body ceases to fulfil.

I actually agree with the kids *mistake #1* that the satisfactory execution of their duties in this "business" is more a personality trait, because they sure have a handle on the tecnology.

In fact the freshness of approach, in terms of the actual business, of our younger comrades probably helps the industry grow more effectively in tandem with the levels of new technology presented daily now.

Having said that, I have seen many things, as no doubt have you etLux, and that experience should be shared with the young 'uns for our mutual benefit.

I would be happy to judge a person on the face of their reaction to a situation, (as Felix (no relation) mentioned) as opposed to their age.

Us oldies should know what we don't know (as you pointed out more eloquently) and appeal to our juniors to accept counsel on matters where experience is required, certainly not the execution and application of the latest upgrade to an operating system.

You young guys must carry on with confidence that its how you do what you do that really matters, not your birthday.

Age doesn't matter, to some people. Age does matter, to some people. Experiance does matter, to some people, Experiance doesn't matter, to some people (although that wouldn't be good).

Although the older the person is, generally means more experiance, but like other people have said, the technology is out-dated in 2 years, sometimes even that day. My 550 is slow compared to other machines, but I have had it for a year.

Sorry about the OT, anywho, I would rather pick to host with someone who is 18 with lots of experiance than pick to host with someone who is 35 with no experiance.

Everyone is entitled to their opinions. If someone goes with a host with little experiance over the younger one with lots, then it is their choice.

Does that make any sense (my $0.02)

[Start OT]

All this age and experiance makes me remember something my mom told me. She said that she should have been suspicious of my computer capabilities when I was able to play a very simple game (pressing a button on the keyboard to change the screen colour) when I was 2 ;)

Oh yes, I am 14, and have been on the net for over 4 years, with about 3 1/2 web page experiance, although what that has to do with web hosting and that technology, I don't know ;)

[end OT]

Quotes originally posted by felix220
etLux, I suspect that I am as crusty as you in terms of 'life experience'.

Personally, I tend to have more of a problem with a moldy overgrowth than with encrustation.

I actually agree with the kids *mistake #1* that the satisfactory execution of their duties in this "business" is more a personality trait, because they sure have a handle on the tecnology.

I agree with that as well. Yet, learning to hold ones tongue and pause ones actions to think before impetuously reacting, as well as many other graces of conducting a business (or any other endeavor) well, tend to come with years... as amply demonstrated herein.

In fact the freshness of approach, in terms of the actual business, of our younger comrades probably helps the industry grow more effectively in tandem with the levels of new technology presented daily now.

Undoubtedly true! Among the primary values of youth is that it knows little fear and is unencumbered by preconceptions of what can or cannot be done.

My point, if you read early on in this post, though, was that I would really rather not be the subject of youthful experimentation when it comes to hiring a hosting company.

Having said that, I have seen many things, as no doubt have you etLux, and that experience should be shared with the young 'uns for our mutual benefit.

Don't call 'em young 'uns, Felix; they get all testy.

Us oldies should know what we don't know (as you pointed out more eloquently) and appeal to our juniors to accept counsel on matters where experience is required...

LOL... that'll be the day! Have you forgotten your own youth?

Originally posted by etLux
My point, if you read early on in this post, though, was that I would really rather not be the subject of youthful experimentation when it comes to hiring a hosting company.

You have no ideas of what you are missing my old friend.

I've seen more hosting company started by old timers going in the business because of the cash appeal than young ones. I've also seen more young succeded than old ones.

Of course, I am young, thus stupid, thus can't be trusted, thus incompetent.

right etLux? :)

anyway, I will hold to my position, age does not matter. Saying that it does is a sign that If you picked A.) you need your head examined.

I, as the young one, provide friendly technical support, never longer than 72 hours at the extremes, am designing a cable modem corporation web site and programming a control panel. But, sicne I am young, this is worthless?

I never speak before thinking. Why? Because I have to actually translate my thought into english, then written english. I obviously am not as fluent as you can be with over 40 years of english writting experience over my 5 years.

Does that have any effect on the quality of our company? Of course not.

etLux

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL... that'll be the day! Have you forgotten your own youth?
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No, I haven't (ha! ha! *squirm*).

I often wonder that I've made it this far :) (I have, haven't I?)

I have now taken the view that money is only the 'scorecard' and therefore if I should suffer at the hands of an 'irresponsible' youth with a hosting company, then I pray that both of us will learn yet another lesson from the experience (more so the 'youth')

etLux, there's no denying you counsel wisely, as I have pointed out before in this forum, I just hope that the 'others' (replaces young 'uns) can see through your dry humour to the substance of the comments.

It is also of great wonder to me that the philosophy underlying this should attract a quote from a 'Harry Potter' story....

quote:
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__________________
Allyn - http://www.galaxynetwork.net

Quote of the Month: After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure - Quote by Dumbledore from Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone
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Felix C, keep up the good work, you are going to remember this one day from on high and say "...see, I told you so"

You appear to have the committment to lead in your chosen field, so regardless of your age, I salute you as at least an equal (and probably a 'better') in this business of developing and selling cyber real estate.

As etLux says (I think) we were also where you are now (long ago) and remember (dimly) what happened when we did what you are doing now....

Originally posted by felix220
It is also of great wonder to me that the philosophy underlying this should attract a quote from a 'Harry Potter' story....

quote:
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__________________
Allyn - http://www.galaxynetwork.net

Quote of the Month: After all, to the well-organized mind, death is but the next great adventure - Quote by Dumbledore from Harry Potter and the Philosophers Stone
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What does my signature have to do with the topic of conversation here?? :confused:

I was merely quoting you, (in a favourable way, I might add) and the easiest way to do that while including your identity AND the quote was to cut and paste the whole thing.

Sorry if that doesn't suit, us old folks do tend to get lazy sometimes :)

By the way, I thought your quote was very relevant to the original subject re: does age matter?

I'm actually defending your right to do something well, regardless of age.

Originally posted by felix220
I was merely quoting you, (in a favourable way, I might add) and the easiest way to do that while including your identity AND the quote was to cut and paste the whole thing.

Sorry if that doesn't suit, us old folks do tend to get lazy sometimes :)

By the way, I thought your quote was very relevant to the original subject re: does age matter?

I'm actually defending your right to do something well, regardless of age.

ok, now I understand. The quote does sorta fit topic on age mattering.

See you around ;)

Originally posted by felix220
etLux, there's no denying you counsel wisely, as I have pointed out before in this forum, I just hope that the 'others' (replaces young 'uns) can see through your dry humour to the substance of the comments.

As to how wise my counsel -- I could not say.

(Ready for this... lol?)

However, everyone knows beyond all shadow of doubt or least taint of untruth that young people have no sense of humor whatsoever; most especially so when it comes to themselves. That they cannot perceive humor, having none, is thus unsurprising; and whence comes, indubitably, their complete misunderstanding of my posts.

(To wit and to watch... lol.)

Fortunately, I'm willing to take all the flack, here, because the backbone providers pay me by the hour to generate traffic like this.

etLux

(*snicker, gasp*)

Notwithstanding your obvious preference for Noel Coward (and cheques from the backbone provider:))over Homer Simpson, I believe that we should be assuring the younger entrepreneurs that they are perfectly justified in believing that they can provide service equal to or better than any 'older' operator, provided that they accept the rules that apply to all of us regarding ethical and professional business practice.

We have no compunction in sending 18 year olds out to our various politically motivated war efforts, so they should at least be given a clear shot at running a web hosting company, which frankly is a spurious concept anyway.

For example, I am 14,000 odd miles away from some of the equipment that I use to generate income. Would never have happened when I was a boy :)

The original question proposed by this posting was; does or should (I forget exactly, there are so many pages to this thread) age matter in this business.

(Did I hear a cash register?)Well I don't think it matters squat, provided everybody plays fairly by the same rules.

I'll be sueing for a commission shortly etLux.

Hello,

I'm not sure if I agree with your vote about how a "older" person has more experience. Correct me if I'm wrong, but this whole industry is relatively young. Therefore, a older person may not necessarily have greater experience then that of a younger 18 or 19 year old.

Now, I will use myself as an example. I have been working within the ISP and WebHosting industry for nearly 4 years now. I started off by pushing myself cold turkey into the UNIX Shell Industry(If you think webhosting is a hard industry, you haven't seen anything yet), I contended with "script kiddies" who had the sole intent of removing the services I offered from being available from the general Internet. If I had not been fast enough in patching security holes with my FreeBSD systems, they would have root access(Luckily, I became friends within a group which releases exploits to the general public so I could patch my systems before exploits were released). It was a tough market, but still I gained the reputation as one of the most friendly and professionally handled administrators within that market. At that point I was 15 years of age if I remember correctly. Eventually I realised that the market which I was in was not viable, and decided worked out a deal with another such company who purchased my equipment and customers.

After this, I moved into working with another company who did something similar to what I had been doing previously by myself(It always seems less stressful when you don't own it?). I did this for about 1 1/2 years, overlapping into a job I was working at a ISP.

I started working at a major Canadian ISP, doing Technical Support, and later Internet Security(Spammers, hackers, etc.). I quite often received comments on my professional behavior and friendly attitude.

Finally, I'm 18 now, almost 19, and I am a partial owner in a webhosting company, and sit on the board of directors for this company.

The moral of this rant which I have forced you to read through, age CAN matter, but it [DOESN'T] always. It is all in the maturity level of the induvidual person. Experience doesn't really matter a whole lot, as long as when there are problems, you know where to find the information necessary to SOLVE the problem in a timely manner, which is something I have found to be extremely important. No one person can be expected to know everything, but they can be expected to know where to FIND the answer.

In regards to the legal issues, I can agree with this; however, as long as the person in question has investigated properly and has the support of somebody who is of legal age there should not be a problem with this. (Who the heck can do these sorts of things simply on their own?? It is a LOT of work)


Best Regards,

Rory

[Edited by Rory on 11-19-2000 at 11:43 AM]

Age does NOT correspond with experience, especially in the 101110101010100 world. But it does correspond to to attitude+commitment. Personally, I wouldnt mind a kid doing web design for me, as it is a once off project, no commitment required. But hosting my website? No way. As someone mentioned before, they can just disappear with our money. They do not depend on the business for bread, and they have a lot to learn about responsibilities. Though many would beg to differ, cause they just dont know yet ;)

I effectively do not depend on web hosting alone for bread... I also depend on programming and design. Around here, over 18 years old, you are an adult, thus are responsible for your actions.

I notice that the majority of fraud are always caused by adults, not children.

Oh... when dry humor is too close to your actual opinion... is it humorous or is it what you really think? And if the people you are adressing think it is what you think... what is so funny when they try to argue... only to get laughed at?

I find the adult behavior to be the most disturbing. I for one am proud not to be an adult if that is the case :)

Most of your arguments for "age does matter" are based on a kid running away with your money. Can't this happen to an "adult"? Agreed, you cant take legal action against the kid, but then again, that doesnt mean you can take some against the adult. I mean, the "adult" can simply disapear and you would never know where he went. So I think the point made about a kid running away with your money is irrelevant.

Originally posted by felix220
I am 14,000 odd miles away from some of the equipment that I use...Try going in the opposite direction, Felix -- then it'll only be around 10,000 miles... should make your morning communte a little quicker.

Q has effectively summarized much of what I said earlier. Age is only an indicator many people use for more meaningful qualities, those that deal with the character of a person. Such things as attitude and committment are more important than skill. For business sites, having an exceptionally talented kid for web design or technical issues is worthless and costly is they fail to deliver because they are riddled with teen angst or just enjoying being a kid.

While there are some young individuals who act responsibly, there are many who don't. Unless a particular youngster is known to someone, and their responsible nature is known, it is quite reasonable to look for someone a bit more mature, certainly at least 18 years of age.

I understand why our younger members here are a bit bothered by the talk of age, and you should understand that it's not about you personally, but of the majority of youngsters. After all, at your age it's time to be a kid and have fun before the responsibilities of adulthood weigh heavily on your shoulders. This has been true for a very long time.

Felix, the majority of fraud is committed by adults, and that's largely because there are few minors in business and most adults won't deal with them. That renders your statement meaningless. Furthermore, one of the main concerns is not about fraud but about responsibility. It is probably true that there are more responsible adults in business than minors (see, that makes as little sense as your remark).

kunal,

I believe most of the talk about kids running away with the money were if a figurative sense, not a literal one. That makes the remark about age most relevant. It is risky and just plain stupid to enter into a long term business arrangement with minors. There is no legal recourse if they fail to honor their contract, implied or otherwise, as they cannot be held to any contract. That renders your statement without value, Rory.

In regards to the legal issues, I can agree with this; however, as long as the person in question has investigated properly and has the support of somebody who is of legal age there should not be a problem with this.
You have apparently missed the point. The customer does not care if a minor has support of an adult. The primary issue is the person responsible being held legally accountable.

If a web site for a business is not completed on time, the business has no recourse. It can only have someone else either continue or be a substitute and completely replace the uncompleted work. For longer term committments like hosting, it is ludicrous to deal with minors. If the minor wearies of his or her hobby and gives it up, the business site may be shut down without warning. Again, there is no legal recourse.

At least with adults, the option of a lawsuit is available to seek recompense.

Though it's been a while since I was 18, I remember what it was like with some adults thinking all young people were irresponsible. You can't change that perception. All you can do is show that you don't fit the sterotype and make your own mark.

Duster, the point I was trying to make, was that, you cant neceserarily take action against a adult in the hosting business simply because you dunno who you are dealing with on the other side. For eg. Annette might be a 60yrs old man? Have you met her personally to make sure she isnt?


P.S -> I dun mean to offen anyone.

I think when you ask the question does age matter you really should look at the law. We live, at least I do, in a country where my ideas matter but the final say so in most things is the law. If a person is under 18 or over 18 and he takes action based on the law then for the most part we have to accept that.

As far as someone running off with your money. Most of the time these people are going to incorporate. This means that you can not go after them personally anyway unless they do not know how to run a corp.


Just my .01 cents.

Originally posted by kunal
Annette might be a 60yrs old man?

In her absence, I feel compelled to valiantly attempt a defense of her honor. Although Annette is known not to dance an innuendo-filled samba (something we established with much certainty in another post), I feel sure she is an exemplary specimen of womankind.

I agree, but one would never know until one meets her right? I am just giving an example.

Originally posted by kunal
For eg. Annette might be a 60yrs old man? Have you met her personally to make sure she isnt?

While talking to her the other day, I did find it a *bit* odd that she started going on and on about how slow the post office is lately, which denture creme was the most adhesive, etc. I was just like, "Uhhh, I don't know..."

This explains things... :)

Lol :D

Originally posted by Duster
Felix, the majority of fraud is committed by adults, and that's largely because there are few minors in business and most adults won't deal with them. That renders your statement meaningless. Furthermore, one of the main concerns is not about fraud but about responsibility. It is probably true that there are more responsible adults in business than minors (see, that makes as little sense as your remark).
I must admit that this was not as precise as it should have been. Although I am 19 years old, I do not consider myself as an adult. Legally, I am. By adult, I had in mind 30+ years old, or after the first 1/3 or 1/2 of your life.

Originally posted by Duster
Though it's been a while since I was 18, I remember what it was like with some adults thinking all young people were irresponsible. You can't change that perception. All you can do is show that you don't fit the sterotype and make your own mark.
This is what I am trying to do, make my own mark. However, when downgraded immediately because you don't have 30 years of experience with internet (which is a blatan lie for anyone in the web hosting industry), it is hard to proove. I found out that the web hosting business is an ideal place to show what I am capable of doind and how well I'm doing it. Of course, some ol'crap will always say that since I'm young, I can't be trusted.

I will not make anyone's opinion change, but I find it hard to stay silent as well.

I don't think that because analysing someone purely on its age worked before that it should _always_ work. And as some said before, the 'legal' part of being an adult is not very helpfull on the internet anymore.

Ever tried to sue someone who kept your money that live in Koweit? (even if he is 55 years old)
:)

I will continue to do a good job, untill I have 20 years of experience in this field, then look back and spit on untrustable young ones.

Bah.

yes. In 20 years, the hosts which started now and are still around, can look down wisely on all the rest

Maybe trust is too strong a word. Let me explain it from my view, as a 30 year old. I remember when I was 17-18 years old, I had just gotten out of high school, and was about to enter college, since that time I have gone through 5 years of college (more to come), traveled across the U.S. by car three times, rode across Iowa on a bicycle (Iowa isn't flat by the way), and more things than I could possibly list.

I think the only disadvantage of your age is that older people know that...
1) they are much wiser than they themselves were at age 18.
2) they know how much they've experienced since they were 18.
3) they may have had a few businesses (and failed once already)
4) they've worked for other people which has given them experience.

All in all, it isn't so much that I don't trust an 18 year old. I really respect that drive. At the same time, I know they haven't put in a good 10 years of work, and had life experiences which helps in ways that are unexplainable sometimes (just as I recommend you go to college for if nothing else, the experience of going to college). It is a big world, and to just jump from high school to sitting in front of a computer the rest of your life, leads me to think that some of you guys are missing something.

Running a business is hard, it takes dedication, and it takes experience. Sometimes you are good enough to get by without much of this, but I can't say that every 18 year old who has enough money to buy a server would make a good host, nor owner of any business.

Anyone can lease a server but, young or old, it takes a good deal of something (for lack of a better word) to run a solid decent business (and that includes a hosting business).

The only thing I'd say is, if you are 18 and want to become a host, before you do it, be sure to do a few of the things you've always wanted to do, now that you're old enough to. You can do some of the things you want to do later, but it isn't the same. Drive around the country for a week/month. Go out and have fun. Then, start your business when you get back :)

I was going to make a very long post here but I would rather keep some of that to myself at the moment.

Do not under estimate the power of experience. If anyone has followed my career to any degree they will know I have been involved with allot and there is more to come. I have made choices that however I did not know were wrong turned out to be not the best thing.

Young people do bring fresh thoughts into the playing field but keep in mind those fresh minds can do things they never thought were wrong. Mostly they have not seen or been exposed to enough of the real world. Someone that is young has no way of knowing how to deal with everything that might pop up.

I think the real answer to this question is you can make a list of pro's and con's to being young and old.

Originally posted by Chicken
Older people know that...
1) they are much wiser than they themselves were at age 18.
2) they know how much they've experienced since they were 18.
3) they may have had a few businesses (and failed once already)
4) they've worked for other people which has given them experience.

Exceptionally well put, Chicken; and I thank you for it. As I said early in this thread, age *does* matter, and these (above) are amongst the most important reasons why it does.

You may be the most talented, able, brilliant young prodigy that ever walked the planet. But having walked the planet for a number of years is exactly what provides you with the crucial experience needed to work effectively with the horsepower you have.

I, too, started in business in the computer industry very, very young. This was quite a long time ago (few if any of you were even born yet), when it was almost impossible for an eighteen-year-old kid to do so.

And, yes, I did indeed succeed -- and even, for a while, prospered.

Nonetheless, in the clarity of retrospect, it was a drastic mistake. As Chicken outlined, I had not yet had the experience required to carry that endeavor forward well; and in the end, it was a near-catastrophic failure because of that, both for me and for many innocent others.

This is where the hazard lies. My technical acumen was unimpeachable. The rightness of my ideas was unmistakable. The drive I brought to the work was unparalleled.

But for the lack of experience in managing it -- simple mistakes that now, decades later, it wouldn't for a moment occur to me to make -- well, it crashed and burned wondrously; and my personal shame in it is now part of history.

And the most crucial mistake I made?

Not listening to older, grayer heads who were telling me exactly what I needed to know; but in the arrogance of youth, did not want to hear...



[Edited by etLux on 11-19-2000 at 10:22 PM]

A hypothetical etLux:

Would one learn more from going out and making the mistakes or listening to the experienced and never making them?

I quoted only some of what you said, Duster.

Originally posted by Duster

I believe most of the talk about kids running away with the money were if a figurative sense, not a literal one. That makes the remark about age most relevant. It is risky and just plain stupid to enter into a long term business arrangement with minors. There is no legal recourse if they fail to honor their contract, implied or otherwise, as they cannot be held to any contract. That renders your statement without value, Rory.

If a web site for a business is not completed on time, the business has no recourse. It can only have someone else either continue or be a substitute and completely replace the uncompleted work. For longer term committments like hosting, it is ludicrous to deal with minors. If the minor wearies of his or her hobby and gives it up, the business site may be shut down without warning. Again, there is no legal recourse.

At least with adults, the option of a lawsuit is available to seek recompense.


My statement was more along the lines that for legal reasons and for financial reason, if a minor is to enter into this business they generally would have the legal support of a person who is at least 18 years of age. Therefore, if you are to be "screwed around" you do have legal recourse. However, I must point out, if they are to "run off with your money" it is likely that they will do so no matter if they are young, old, green, purple, tall or short or whatever and you will likely have no legal recourse because you will be unable to locate them because of distance.

I will not defend all minors, but you must understand that marking all businesses you are run by minors are unviable and dangerous to deal with is arrogant and idiotic as far as I see. They are just as capable, if not more capable then some older people. This does of course only reference to a small portion of minors, the ones who are dedicated induviduals to the customers, as I would like to considered myself when I was younger and still even.

The moral, there are good and bad of both. Just because somebody is of legal age does not mean you can necessarily press charges, especially if they are incorporated. (As a side note, you do know that a minor can create an incorporated company, as I did when I first started in the UNIX Shell Industry).

Duster, I don't mean to target your comments specifically, I am kind of annoyed how if you are young you are all of the sudden "irresponsible" which I think is unfair as I've met far more older people who are less caring for their customers then many of the people I know who are younger.

I'm not sure if it came across, but if anyone is wondering(which would be doubtful) or cares, I am 18 years of age(which means I'm federally legal in Canada).


Best Regards,

Rory

Originally posted by Lawrence
A hypothetical etLux:

Would one learn more from going out and making the mistakes or listening to the experienced and never making them?


I believe one learns from either and both.

(An interesting aside: one theory of heuristics science (to which I very definitely do not subscribe) bluntly states that you learn only from mistakes.)

Although I admire the courage of conviction that carries one forward, willing to brunt the pain of error; the problem here arises not in the cost to you -- but in the cost to others.




[Edited by etLux on 11-19-2000 at 11:28 PM]

Originally posted by Chicken

I think the only disadvantage of your age is that older people know that...
1) they are much wiser than they themselves were at age 18.
2) they know how much they've experienced since they were 18.
3) they may have had a few businesses (and failed once already)
4) they've worked for other people which has given them experience.



Nicely put if I must say so myself, Chicken.

I would personally like to consider myself in a different position, since I am only one on our board of directors, meaning the work is split up to a reasonable level and we always have people with "experience" to discuss issues. Living your life before you settle down is a very important thing and I believe I am doing so in a proper manner while keeping professional things done at the same time, on time and done well. (Keeping a cell phone on you helps a whole lot I must say, except when you receive the $300 bill every month.. )


---
Rory

In brief, if you are young, go away, visit the wolrd... once you are 30 and have a lot of life experience, start a web hosting company.

You will succeede because you are 30 years old.

You will be trusted because you are 30 years old.

You will be good because you are 30 years old.

Is it me, or does this sound weird?

I am not discussing te fact that someone that lived around the wolrd and saw things is better or not than a young person. I am discussing the fact that young people can have the capabilities of running a web hosting company as well as any experienced 30 years old guy with the same computer experience.

Of course life brings more and more to an individual as time goes. But believe it or not, some are ready to take responsabilities sooner than other, some will be good before others.

Anyway, since I am 19 years old, I shouldn't be here talking this... I should be out cruising in a pub ;)

Don't take me bad, but associating age of the owner with the quality of their product is wrong. Terribly wrong.

<edit>
web hosting company is far from being that complex and that hard to run. I've had no real problems at all administering our servers, being a friendly senior tech support, designing, marketing. I believe that if I had been older, I would not have done this... simply because this industry is young and that it is evolving way too fast. I like this, but will I like it when I'll be 30, 40? I am far from sure.

I will be older, I will not look down on other, because I will most likely still be learning new area of knowledge.
</edit>

[Edited by Félix C.Courtemanche on 11-19-2000 at 11:21 PM]

It kind of feels like the stereotype of Surrey, BC, Canada(Where I live). The stereotype is that all the girls in Surrey are sluts. The idea which is being given off about the whole age issue kind of feels the same as branding all Surrey girls as slut-like.

One other thing. In the interest to not be called sexist, I must mention that there are women who have advanced computer knowledge just as their are men who have the same/more/less/whatever computer knowledge. :)


---
Rory

Originally posted by Félix C.Courtemanche
I am 19 years old, I shouldn't be here... I should be out cruising in a pub.

IMHO, you have got that exactly, precisely -- right.

Originally posted by etLux
IMHO, you have got that exactly, precisely -- right.


... been there, done that. I had enough life experience for a little while, believe me. which is why I'm now dedicating my time to this little company which can brin in some more life experience.

Yep! working for a company can effectively bring you that experience... to run around the country and party in pub ;)

Be careful out there, Felix, or this, too, could happen to you...

http://www.malepregnancy.com

Originally posted by etLux
Be careful out there, Felix, or this, too, could happen to you...

http://www.malepregnancy.com



Oh my gosh, that is freaky, but I guess we had it coming?

ehhhhhhhh.
no... I somewhat prefer the natural way of doing & having it :D

I just had a thought... Perhapse your life was different than my life. Perhapse we did not do the same thing before, thus did not reach the same 'levels' at the same time.

I mean... I've been paying for all my stuff including CEGEP (2 years before university) since I am late 16 years old. My own appartment, parents miles & miles away.

I have the feeling that this and other similar factors could have an impact on the way you are serious... and how fast you are.

Sure I could go out and spend all my cash on video games... but then I would live outdoor in Québec's winters (which are coming soon and are pretty cold), with no food. So, somehow, you learn not to do so, learn to be responsible.

I did not have to travel down to mexico back & forth to learn to respect people, to manage my stress, to release projects on time, to think before acting, to...

Who cares anyway.

Most people do not ask how old their sysadmin is. They do care that their designer release their design on time, with a good price and good quality. I offer them that, thus they are happy.

Felix, I didn't mean to say that all that applies to *every* 18 year old, just most 18 year olds. I'll give you the best example I can think of:

While I was in school (college), there were always a few people trying to rush through the whole thing and finish 6 months early. So they went to college for 3 1/2 years.

Now this is all wonderful, *but* what did this give them? In my view, the *only* thing that this did, was give that person an extra 6 months start on what they'll be doing for the remainder of their life. Working.

I don't disagree with your view Chicken. I am trying to say that... not for the best of the person itself, but for the client, the age does not matter.

I understand very well that I will do stuff that I never though I would do right now... that I will learn more, be even more responsible, etc.

But, RIGHT now, I feel that I defiantely have the competencies to do what I am doing... and to do it very well. Since that was the question at first, I was simply trying to keep the subject on track and argue that age effectively does not matter.

I know that some people are extremely stupid and irresponsible at 15, 18, 25, 35, 55 or 75 years old.

Usually ther are less as you grow older. However, this is not necessarily true for EVERYONE.

Generalization is a sign of weakness in my opinion. It is the easy path for those that effectively were included in this generalization.

I am just trying to point out that because you (anyone) did something does not mean that I did the same, act the same way, did the same mistake, took the same time to learn.

That's all.

Here's some food for thought, having tracked this thread from the start.

On Sunday night I was having a nice little conversation with my Mum about my plans for next year (move out of home, get the full Uni experience, etc.). In Chinese culture (yes, I'm Chinese for those wondering, even though I don't sound it :D) children aren't usually let off the leash until they're 21. I only turned 20 earlier this month, so you have to say my parents are giving me the benefit of the doubt.

She offered me some advice which has stuck in my head since : "Any child can act like an adult, but on the same token adults can act like children too easily".

And that sorta comes back to this conversation. It really depends on the maturity level of the person - age should not matter if you have the maturity to deal with situations. Yes, experience is paramount, but you need a starting point somewhere, and a high level of maturity is required to absorb all the experiences.

Besides, who amongst us haven't seen an adult act irrationally and end up in a heap? ;) (I could name a million examples off the top of my head...)

Just another 45.3 cents gone for the day...

Originally posted by kunal
Does age really matter when you are doing some business like designing or programing or hosting or anything else for that matter??

This is the first post of the thread. I'll answer it simply. Given the choice between a 30 year old and an 18 year old running similar hosting companies (similar reputation, quality, etc.), with about the same amount of experience, I'll take the 30 year old's hosting company.

If the younger host/designer/programmer is better than that's something to consider, but if they are dead even, younger will lose. That's about as general as you don't want me to be, but it is the truth (and I think it applies universally).

Originally posted by Chicken
That's about as general as you don't want me to be, but it is the truth (and I think it applies universally).

If you like generalization, you are right. I don't thus, I think you are not.

Perhapse that I am young & stupid... but I have the generalizational feeling that young people perform better in this type of industries than older ones.

We grew with it. you saw it comign and decided to addopt it. there is the major difference.

Anyone else has a 3 years old nephew that beats them everytime they play a video game against them? But you have so much more life experience than him ;)

Of course, he wouldn't run a company... but by 18 years old, you can be serious and be forever... or be loosy and be for a while... or forever. Wchich is why some adults are, they never stopped being.

<sigh> This thread is making me feel very old. :)

I have had my "own money making business" since I was 14. I did work for someone else for awhile (too long really) but there is nothing like having your own.

There was a group of us that decided to start whatever business young. While everyone else was doing what teenagers do, we were working.

Now we are adults, some with kids of our own, wondering why the heck we did that.

Because you can't get that time back.

But some try...

And that is why you see many irresponsible adults...trying to get their youth back.

The adults on this board know what I am talking about.

So we look at our younger generation, even admiring their sense of responsibility...

knowing that the day is going to come when you look back and wonder why you rushed it all.

When someone is looking for a host/designer, age is not what is on the person's mind. Their track record is what is on their mind. But the minute we find out that the owner is 18-23, we immediately begin to wonder if we made a mistake, or whether we should stay or chose your service. We remember what we were like at that age, and depending on the person, THAT is what is going to be a strike against you. Were we mature at that age? Most were. Are we more mature now? I would hope so. Can we handle it better now than we could then? Of course.

And unfortunately, there is nothing that you can say to change that. You can go on and on about how mature you are, etc. and that may work on someone your own age, but to someone who has lived it? Highly unlikely. Only your track record can.

Would I use the services of a young adult?

I would order a server from Jordan in a heartbeat.

I would hire Felix to design my site without a second thought.

But only because I have interacted with them on this board and I know there track record.

It takes alot to change the mind of a person who has "been there, done that".

Originally posted by Tyme
<sigh> This thread is making me feel very old. :)

I have had my "own money making business" since I was 14. I did work for someone else for awhile (too long really) but there is nothing like having your own.

There was a group of us that decided to start whatever business young. While everyone else was doing what teenagers do, we were working.

Now we are adults, some with kids of our own, wondering why the heck we did that.

Because you can't get that time back.

But some try...

And that is why you see many irresponsible adults...trying to get their youth back.

The adults on this board know what I am talking about.

So we look at our younger generation, even admiring their sense of responsibility...

knowing that the day is going to come when you look back and wonder why you rushed it all.

When someone is looking for a host/designer, age is not what is on the person's mind. Their track record is what is on their mind. But the minute we find out that the owner is 18-23, we immediately begin to wonder if we made a mistake, or whether we should stay or chose your service. We remember what we were like at that age, and depending on the person, THAT is what is going to be a strike against you. Were we mature at that age? Most were. Are we more mature now? I would hope so. Can we handle it better now than we could then? Of course.

And unfortunately, there is nothing that you can say to change that. You can go on and on about how mature you are, etc. and that may work on someone your own age, but to someone who has lived it? Highly unlikely. Only your track record can.

Would I use the services of a young adult?

I would order a server from Jordan in a heartbeat.

I would hire Felix to design my site without a second thought.

But only because I have interacted with them on this board and I know there track record.

It takes alot to change the mind of a person who has "been there, done that".


hmm.. I couldnt agree less with this. :)

And thus, you notice that the age of the owner of a company is never to be found unless explicitely asked. And it is asked only if the company is doing very weird stuff.

To my point... Age does not matter.
;)

Originally posted by Tyme
I would order a server from Jordan in a heartbeat.

I would hire Felix to design my site without a second thought.

But only because I have interacted with them on this board and I know there track record.

I agree with this as well. I don't mean you guys, I mean if I knew a company was run by an 18 year old that I didn't 'know'. You guys have grown up with this stuff. I don't question your ability. I'd still rather buy from a company owned by an adult, even if the employees are 21 years old. That way you get the best of both :)

Jeez this thread has a 102 posts, wonder if this is a record.

I think the alabanza crisis one is longer. :D

.... As well as the TH threads (of both descriptions, if you know what I'm getting at) ;)

You mean this one?

http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?threadid=3243

And they say us old people talk too much...

Uhm, that was one of about 4 or 5 I recall straight off the top of my head.... :)

Originally posted by Rory
My statement was more along the lines that for legal reasons and for financial reason, if a minor is to enter into this business they generally would have the legal support of a person who is at least 18 years of age. Therefore, if you are to be "screwed around" you do have legal recourse.
That is simply not true in many cases.

I repeat what I said earlier:
You have apparently missed the point. The customer does not care if a minor has support of an adult. The primary issue is the person responsible being held legally accountable. Unless a hosting business has incorporated (and many have not), there is no legal recourse if the person running the business is a minor. Frankly, I don't care if you're the most knowledgeable 15 year old in the business. I want to know if you treat me badly, that I might have legal recourse to seek redress or refunds. Frankly, I don't give a damn if you have an adult supporting you. I want an adult at your end supporting me, and accountable for what they do. Your dad or any other adult cannot be held as accountable if you default on your obligations.

I had a horrible experience with AIT. Because of my foresight in moving all the domains I hosted to my next host before I complained to them about their poor service, and they shut me down, none of them suffered for it. Otherwise, I most certainly would have sued AIT.

There is no guarantee that smaller hosts will be around to be sued, but it just doesn't make sense to go into a crucial business arrangement with someone who cannot be held accountable for their actions or inactions.

That makes it plain stupid to host with a minor.

Get it now?


I will not defend all minors, but you must understand that marking all businesses you are run by minors are unviable and dangerous to deal with is arrogant and idiotic as far as I see. They are just as capable, if not more capable then some older people.

You don't see much nor very far. I was referring to long term committments with things like web hosting, not every business with a minor. You also don't see that I'm not talking about their abilities but their accountability. It's the arrogance of youth that makes some believe that ability is all that is important. The arrogance, here Rory, is yours, not mine.


Duster, I don't mean to target your comments specifically, I am kind of annoyed how if you are young you are all of the sudden "irresponsible" which I think is unfair as I've met far more older people who are less caring for their customers then many of the people I know who are younger.
Go back and read my commetns and I think you'll find a fairness in them. You are being too hasty and reactive in your comments, a typical characteristic of the very young. ;-D (I was a bit like that myself when younger)




[Edited by Duster on 11-22-2000 at 09:32 AM]