Hey

I just was on the internet and recieved a siteuptime message saying my server is down at angelnetworkz, i then talked to the people at tms, they are very nice, but said angelnetworkz didnt pay their bills, im now left with a server down due to angelnetworkz not paying, and i cant pay tms until angelnetworkz releases the server. :( So if your texas server is down from angelnetworkz you now know why.

Thanks

Oh boy that sucks :(

I hope they don't unplug ours too soon. Although it has already been unplugged once.

They are i believe, i think all are getting unplugged, just a bit of advice backup, i know i had a offsite backup atleast

I have the feeling that this isn't going to stop until ANz runs out of customers....

It's turning into an every day affair having something new go unpaid.

phew ... i've just finished all my transfer ...

We were lucky and only had one box caught up in this whole AN/Managed.com mess. If you have an AN box at TMS, I'd be backing it up onto another server ASAP.

swijaya, are (were?) you on a TMS server?

auction,

it was san jose server ...

So you got stuck paying the month in order to transfer your files then....

Trying to figure out which way has been quickest (Not that it matters to me so much, I jumped ship the day before the "fit hit the shan" over there)...Did you "stay" with ANz or go through Managed when you paid the extra month?

yeah ... i am stuck ... they put a gun on my head :)

i choose to stay ... i thought they would turn up my server faster ... in fact the server is up 50+ hours after they received my payment.

tomorrow i will try to do chargeback ... and case paypal dispute

Funny, everyone I've talked to about that (all of three people who have their servers back online) have said they stayed with ANz.....But an awful lot of people that chose to go with managed are screaming about still being locked out. I wonder if Kevin (or whatever name [s]he is using today) is intentionally withholding the release of those defecators....err....defectors.

i knew few friends who got their servers turn on 36 hours ealier then mine ...

This is bad.. is AN really going down with lots of debt?

I really wonder why so many people are still hanging out in AN. It is high time they realize that the ship has sunk and the cpatain escaped leaving passengers in lurch.

I was waiting for a few replys to my sales questions through a few companys and also was going to order a server this afternoon so i could transfer and now its down :(

Thatz bad. Somehow get the release order from Fraudsters and go direct with TMS. They are good.

San Jose is at Managed.

Originally posted by mcpaa
I was waiting for a few replys to my sales questions through a few companys and also was going to order a server this afternoon so i could transfer and now its down :(

It's clear that the company is going down since last month when they didn't pay for their cpanel license. if you guys dilly dally for so long, with so much warning and signs of impending doom (with all their servers getting unplug all over), I am not sure you shouldn't share some part of the responsibility. At the very least, you have an offsite backup... right?

That is unbelieveble. Having a big trouble all my clients are on the phone

Originally posted by swijaya0101
yeah ... i am stuck ... they put a gun on my head :)

i choose to stay ... i thought they would turn up my server faster ... in fact the server is up 50+ hours after they received my payment.

tomorrow i will try to do chargeback ... and case paypal dispute

U have to make a paypal dispute about that last payment. Because the way this was handled ... people were getting forced to pay or never see anything back, this is no choice. U have every right on ur server U payed for. They can't charge U again.

Paypal told us to file complaints about every transaction made with AN, Managed or TMS in case this turns out to be a very hughe fraud.

Originally posted by rishidude
I really wonder why so many people are still hanging out in AN. It is high time they realize that the ship has sunk and the cpatain escaped leaving passengers in lurch.

They still hope to get money or data back ... i think if they were sure that wasn't the case u should see another story :)

Well some people can not do a paypal chargeback due to the transaction happenign more than 30 days ago we will be forced to do a marstercard chargeback if neccassary i think, (if anyone wants to go down that path)

First
Managed.com

then
Cpanel.net

and now
TMS

what next ...

[i]Paypal told us to file complaints about every transaction made with AN, Managed or TMS in case this turns out to be a very hughe fraud. [/B]

Dispute payments made to Managed & TMS.. that does not make sense.

What have they done to you?

If people start acting the way you do, they (Managed / TMS) wont even turn on the servers (they are not obliged to, in any case).

Remember you are not their (Managed / TMS) customer & they owe you NOTHING!

Too bad you did not read the warning signals in time when others serviced by your provider were unplugged because your providers did not pay their bills (you had signals even before that though). But you cant blame TMS / Managed for your mess.

Believe me managed.com is only the tip of the iceberg. Think logically, if they owe one DC money they are going to owe all of the others they resell servers from.

Just that some seem to have more tolerance to non-payment than others.

I moved from them straight away. They have asked peopel to pay (and some have) toi get the data back and still not provided the data.

You work it out, if you stay with them you must deffinately take responsibilty when they finally disapeer (ehich will be soon).

Originally posted by p1az
I moved from them straight away. They have asked peopel to pay (and some have) toi get the data back and still not provided the data.

You work it out, if you stay with them you must deffinately take responsibilty when they finally disapeer (ehich will be soon).

I think at the current rate they appear to be loosing customers, I think they'll be gone by the end of September/ beginning of October.

Even if they do manage to pay their outstanding bills, they will be paying out a hell of a lot more in refunds to disgruntled customers.

Originally posted by On4Ever
Dispute payments made to Managed & TMS.. that does not make sense.

What have they done to you?

If people start acting the way you do, they (Managed / TMS) wont even turn on the servers (they are not obliged to, in any case).

Remember you are not their (Managed / TMS) customer & they owe you NOTHING!

Too bad you did not read the warning signals in time when others serviced by your provider were unplugged because your providers did not pay their bills (you had signals even before that though). But you cant blame TMS / Managed for your mess.

What did they do ? They are joining AN in letting continueing this fraud asking people to pay what they already payed for. Why else do u think u have to sign contracts. Paypal is reccommanding to file a dispute for every payment EVER made to AN or the construction they setup with Managed or TMS.

Originally posted by incript_services
First
Managed.com

then
Cpanel.net

and now
TMS

what next ...

WRONG .. it's this way ...

1) Softwareworks (cpanel)
2) TMS
3) again softwareworks
4) managed
5) again softwareworks
6) again TMS

and still people are asking theirselves .. will i ever get the rest of my payed months ...

Originally posted by mcpaa
Well some people can not do a paypal chargeback due to the transaction happenign more than 30 days ago we will be forced to do a marstercard chargeback if neccassary i think, (if anyone wants to go down that path)

In case of AN paypal does open complaint about these older transactions. just file the dispute and after it gets automaticly closed email them explaining. Lot's of disputes of older transactions are open.

If we don't get refunded before september 10 we will go the VISA way.

I don't think PayPal will rule in your favor if you file a complaint through them. I think buyer protection only protects against goods that are shipped. I've had that problem in the past, anyway. Maybe they make exceptions if they get a lot of complaints?

I'm surprised that TMS told some of you that AN had not released you yet; I sent in all the information that was requested, made payment, and was switched to their (TMS) care within a few hours. Perhaps Kevin has decided to take a nap instead of sending TMS an updated list of released customers :rolleyes:

Folks, I think some of you are aiming your anger at the wrong companies here. Managed & TMS had contracts with AN/"Donna". Any data on the servers leased through them would (in the DC's eyes) belong to AN, in the same way that your reseller customers are responsible for any data in their customers' hosting accounts (after all, when their customer violates the TOS you contact the reseller, not the end user). If your reseller did not pay their fees, you would give them so long and then suspend their entire account until payment was made. If they failed to make payment, you would terminate their account, including their customers' accounts. Any hosting company with a good TOS reserves this right.

It's no different here. You purchased a service from AN, who purchased the service from Managed/TMS. Managed/TMS provided that service to AN which AN did not pay for. Period.

I will personally be filing disputes against AN for the payments we made to them within the past month. We paid for a service that AN did not provide. If Paypal can't help us we'll be heading to the bank to see what our recourse is.

Originally posted by thefast
WRONG .. it's this way ...

1) Softwareworks (cpanel)
2) TMS
3) again softwareworks
4) managed
5) again softwareworks
6) again TMS

and still people are asking theirselves .. will i ever get the rest of my payed months ...

You forgot one....Burst/Nocster was first when AN pulled this same thing about a year ago. They didn't pay their bill....twice....and their customers got shut down because of it. They then begged...just as they did this time, for customers to pay in advance even if they were already paid up or "loan" them money.

This scenario is a perfect example of the short memories many in this industry seem to have (that's not directed at anyone in particular....just an observation). You have companies such as AN that repeatedly get shut down for lack of payment, a supposed "security" expert who uses his access to steal his customers domains and wreak havoc on them. When caught, he proceeds to act even more unprofessional and with complete disregard for those he damaged.

In both of those instances....some people have already forgot what has happened in the recent past...or they choose to ignore it thinking it won't happen to them or the lack of ethics does not bother them.

It serves as a sad example of some of the people involved in this industry with a lack of ethics and common business experience.

well you wrongly defend TMS.
actually what they did may be considered as knowlingly aid to a possible law violation.
this would make them solidary liable for all occured damages.
and if AN ran out of money in such case its easier to go after TMS.

Well some people can not do a paypal chargeback due to the transaction happenign more than 30 days ago we will be forced to do a marstercard chargeback if neccassary i think, (if anyone wants to go down that path)
If I remember corectly from another tread, PayPal is going to look into this due to the high numer of complaints.

I guess I were lucky. I checked Beachcomber.net, and they had a far better location for me beeing in Europe.
I ordered the server, and just got all the sites transfered before my TMS server were pulled. :)

I would higly recomend Beachcomber.net to everyone. Their support have been fantastic so far.
I even got a 3.0Ghz server when I ordered a 2,8. :D

Originally posted by svtVIB
I don't think PayPal will rule in your favor if you file a complaint through them. I think buyer protection only protects against goods that are shipped. I've had that problem in the past, anyway. Maybe they make exceptions if they get a lot of complaints?

True about the shipped and tangible goods. But in this case Paypal is indeed opening cases against AN. They will choose the buyer side in case of fraud.

Originally posted by Matt
You forgot one....Burst/Nocster was first when AN pulled this same thing about a year ago. They didn't pay their bill....twice....and their customers got shut down because of it. They then begged...just as they did this time, for customers to pay in advance even if they were already paid up or "loan" them money.



And what happened with the clients who payed up ?

Originally posted by alexmue
well you wrongly defend TMS.
actually what they did may be considered as knowlingly aid to a possible law violation.
this would make them solidary liable for all occured damages.
and if AN ran out of money in such case its easier to go after TMS.

That is totaly not true, TMS nor Managed are in no way responsible for this fiasco, your contracts were with AN, and as such the others are not liable, nor will they be seen as liable.

Wow, this is very interesting. It was the last thing to think that Donna would be shutting the entire network down. I think she bought a couple expensive shoes, a brand new Mercedes, got an RV for a couple $100,000's, then took a trip around the world :D. I mean this is really outragous, and to know that people are actually saying "AN is still cool! Although my server has been down for a week." Well good luck to those that are staying with them. I don't think AN will last through the year however. Maybe November. Plus, I hear that, they are taking AN to the courts to get their money back (or at least I think so :S)

Originally posted by TheNetway
Wow, this is very interesting. It was the last thing to think that Donna would be shutting the entire network down. I think she bought a couple expensive shoes, a brand new Mercedes, got an RV for a couple $100,000's, then took a trip around the world :D. I mean this is really outragous, and to know that people are actually saying "AN is still cool! Although my server has been down for a week." Well good luck to those that are staying with them. I don't think AN will last through the year however. Maybe November. Plus, I hear that, they are taking AN to the courts to get their money back (or at least I think so :S)

It's now debateable if "Donna' even exists... there is no doubt there is someone in canada but it appears that everyone in canada sends e-mail from the same machine... and your money goes to some 20 year old kid in New Jersey..... good luck getting your money people!

Originally posted by wiresix-Ryan
It's now debateable if "Donna' even exists... there is no doubt there is someone in canada but it appears that everyone in canada sends e-mail from the same machine... and your money goes to some 20 year old kid in New Jersey..... good luck getting your money people!

i think the DCs should be accepting some of the liability here if they didnt check these people out and require signed contracts and ID or some type of verification of who they are.

i also believe a lot of people would have been saved had teh DCs pulled the plug months ago when they first started having a problem, rather than keep it going and allowing angel to keep collecting money from unsuspecting clients.

Originally posted by Matt
You forgot one....Burst/Nocster was first when AN pulled this same thing about a year ago. They didn't pay their bill....twice....and their customers got shut down because of it. They then begged...just as they did this time, for customers to pay in advance even if they were already paid up or "loan" them money.

This scenario is a perfect example of the short memories many in this industry seem to have (that's not directed at anyone in particular....just an observation). You have companies such as AN that repeatedly get shut down for lack of payment, a supposed "security" expert who uses his access to steal his customers domains and wreak havoc on them. When caught, he proceeds to act even more unprofessional and with complete disregard for those he damaged.

In both of those instances....some people have already forgot what has happened in the recent past...or they choose to ignore it thinking it won't happen to them or the lack of ethics does not bother them.

It serves as a sad example of some of the people involved in this industry with a lack of ethics and common business experience.

Good post. I followed both events and am constantly amazed at the blinders people put on after stunts like those.

Originally posted by Naes
Good post. I followed both events and am constantly amazed at the blinders people put on after stunts like those. There are larger providers than AN who are still active on these forums who have had all kinds of issues people turn a blind eye to as well...

Originally posted by LaurenStephens
i think the DCs should be accepting some of the liability here if they didnt check these people out and require signed contracts and ID or some type of verification of who they are.

i also believe a lot of people would have been saved had teh DCs pulled the plug months ago when they first started having a problem, rather than keep it going and allowing angel to keep collecting money from unsuspecting clients.

Well, remember the DC's are out money owed to them. It isn't like all accounts were paid and then they shut the equipment off. The DC's did lose big time on the financial side.

It's a lose / lose. The DC's most likely wanted to work with AN on resolving their debt and keeping their customers on. If AN was making small payments toward their debt or "working" with the DC to pay their debt then on the DC's eyes AN was operating in good faith at the time. If the DC's had started to solicit AN's customers at the first sign of AN's financial issues the DC's would have been in a world of hurt. The proper thing (and I think this is happening now to some extent) is for AN to terminate their agreements with the DC's and allow the DC's to pursue individual contracts with their customers.

when you go to lease a car, do they ask for ID?

tell me one industry where it is standard to NOT get verified client information.

apples to oranges.

Leasing a $100 product isn't leasing a $25,000 car. You are also not given physical control off the machine. Like you are a car. I see what you are trying to say but car <-> server is apples <-> oranges.

And do you have first hand direct knowledge that Managed had no real information on AN? I haven't seen anything to that effect and if that was true I bet they wouldn't be showcasing that in a public forum. :)

Originally posted by Naes
apples to oranges.

Leasing a $100 product isn't leasing a $25,000 car. You are also not given physical control ffn the machine. Like you are a car. I see what you are trying to say but car <-> server is apples <-> oranges.

And do you have first hand direct knowledge that Managed had no real information on AN? I haven't seen anything to that effect and if that was true I bet they wouldn't be showcasing that in a public forum. :)

hmm, i didnt know you could buy a brand new server for $100.00???

i can tell you this, no one knows who angel is at this point and how would managed be any different?

i think it is time that DCs and hosts start getting verified info from their clients or expect to eat some liability. of course, that wont happen because there is too much doom and greed in this industry.

Originally posted by LaurenStephens
hmm, i didnt know you could buy a brand new server for $100.00???

i can tell you this, no one knows who angel is at this point and how would managed be any different?

i think it is time that DCs and hosts start getting verified info from their clients or expect to eat some liability. of course, that wont happen because there is too much doom and greed in this industry.

Leasing was the word used. Not 'buy.'

yes and you can lease a new car for 100.00 a month easily. am i right?

the point is, youre comparing the SALES price with a leased price and thats why it is apples and oranges.

a server, an OS, a cpanel and fantastico license, etc etc is NOT a $100.00 product

Originally posted by LaurenStephens
i think it is time that DCs and hosts start getting verified info from their clients or expect to eat some liability. of course, that wont happen because there is too much doom and greed in this industry.

I think because of situations like the AN fiasco they would be foolish not to. It's a shame when scam companies ruin it for the good guys.

thanks pnut, but lets examine this a lot more carefully. it isnt just ONE company. this has happened over and over again.

how many companies here have done this already. lots just in the year that ive been here.

yeah - caught that myself & edited :D

that may be one of the reasons why TP refused to do business with AN
and thats why AN went to TMS (which was in fact more expensive for AN than TP directly)

as I declared above if that what AN did is ileagal in the country effected, than TMS is solidary liable for all damages due of knowlingly aid.

huh?

With a leased car or sale you take physical delivery of the product and drive it away. When you lease a $100 server from a DC it sits in their DC under their ultimate control.

Leasing a $25000 car is leasing a $25000 car. Just because you took out a lease the value of the car doesn't drop to what you would pay over the 2 - 3 years you lease it. But again, with a car you take physical delivery and drive it away. That is the apples to oranges part.

If you lease a $10000 server for $100 a month from say EV1 you don't get to take the server home with you. So, if you fail to pay EV1 still has their property under their control and can re-lease it. With a car, you have to find the weasel who stopped paying and hope they didn't crash it, chop it etc...

That is why you won't see extensive credit checks when someone wants to lease a $100 product on a month to month basis with no physical delivery of the product. There is no real incentive.

Now, if managed truly failed to establish a proper business relationship with a customer that had such a huge mrc that is their fault. And if posts are to be believed they are out 70k for their mistake.

yes 70K is a lot more than a 25K car

an extensive credit check shouldnt be necessary but signed documents and valid ID should be.

i mean, what kind of businesses are these people running??

ack!

Originally posted by Mark_TVI
There are larger providers than AN who are still active on these forums who have had all kinds of issues people turn a blind eye to as well...

Examples, please?

We'd like to be forewarned!

good idea!

who has a list!

Originally posted by alexmue
..As I declared above if that what AN did is ileagal in the country effected, than TMS is solidary liable for all damages due of knowlingly aid.

Would my reseller's virtual hosting clients be able to sue me if I shut down the reseller for non-payment of dues?
As far as I am concerned, my client is the reseller whom I have every right to suspend if they dont pay up.

If they threatened a lawsuit, I'd welcome them to go ahead & fight them legally even if it would be far cheaper to turn them on than employ a lawyer to defend myself.

If I was staying at a hotel and the electric company cut off their electricity for non payments of bills, would they be liable for damages for knowingly not informing hotel quests & causing them much discomfort in the process?

You seem desperate to find someone to put blame on just because you cant go after your direct provider. If your claim against TMS doesn't stick, whom will you go after next - Yipes / He / TP?

Ok guys and gals,

How do you think this whole fiasco ranks alongside the Feature Price rip-off last year?

Originally posted by poolking
Ok guys and gals,

How do you think this whole fiasco ranks alongside the Feature Price rip-off last year?

Tell us more about it & we'll throw in our opinions / comments! :P

Originally posted by On4Ever
Tell us more about it & we'll throw in our opinions / comments! :P

Do I hint a bit of sarcasm there? :D

If not which rock have you been hiding under? :D

1. if the DC failed in their due diligence then yes they could legally be held accountable to an extent.

2. if the client/end user/whoever failed to take the proper precautions such as having backups (as ive seen MOST of you state on your websites that you do, but you obviously lied to your clients) if you dont mitigate your damages, then you are partially responsible

3. there are a LOT of people here responsible. first the DCs for not checking out who they do business with and for allowing angel to continue operations. then for the hosts/resellers/whatever for not having backups and NOT checking out angel (do a google, there is really old and bad stuff on there) and of course angel is ultimately responsible. but as the saying goes, you cant be a scam artist if there is no one willing to be scammed! hell, even paypal allowing them to keep their accounts open could get their share of justice! there is a LOT of blame to go around.

Originally posted by LaurenStephens
1. if the DC failed in their due diligence then yes they could legally be held accountable to an extent.

2. if the client/end user/whoever failed to take the proper precautions such as having backups (as ive seen MOST of you state on your websites that you do, but you obviously lied to your clients) if you dont mitigate your damages, then you are partially responsible

3. there are a LOT of people here responsible. first the DCs for not checking out who they do business with and for allowing angel to continue operations. then for the hosts/resellers/whatever for not having backups and NOT checking out angel (do a google, there is really old and bad stuff on there) and of course angel is ultimately responsible. but as the saying goes, you cant be a scam artist if there is no one willing to be scammed! hell, even paypal allowing them to keep their accounts open could get their share of justice! there is a LOT of blame to go around.

:agree: altrue I desliked much of your other posts, this one makes me happy, since it shows that there are also some intelligent people here, and not just people who just post crap about matters they have no idea about.

to point 1:
to clearify this further
when you have a gunshop and someone comes in and want to buy a gun you are normaly allowed to sell him a gun when leagal requirements are filled.
but when you know (i.e. based on his atitute or based on prior seen evidence) that he plans to use this gun for a crime then you are not allowed to sell the gun even when all legal requirements for selling are filled. If you do it anyway you are fully solidary liable for all damage resulting of the gun usage because you knowlingly aided that guy with doing this crime.

same here, when TMS knowlingly gives aid to ilegal usage of their servers it is fully solidary liable on all resulting damage.

to point 2:
these customers are also partially responsible due of their neglience in selecting the business partner and not researching about them.

I blame the naysayers ;)

Originally posted by LaurenStephens
2. if the client/end user/whoever failed to take the proper precautions such as having backups (as ive seen MOST of you state on your websites that you do, but you obviously lied to your clients) if you dont mitigate your damages, then you are partially responsible


What about the hosts who did do backups...to a secondary drive on the server? They fulfilled their promise but they still had no way to access those files when the server got pulled .

Lesson learned: Do remote backups :D

Although, even remote backups can fail. I was doing daily remote backups from my personal server (which was @ managed), and thought I'd not have to pay to 'reactivate' it (since I'd already signed up w/another company).
Turns out the company with whom I had the backup account accidentally deleted mine when doing a cleanup of old accounts. :blush:

Ultimate Lesson learned: Always have a local (on your computer, or CD) backup :D

I guess when it comes down to it it's everyone's (DC's, providers, hosts, customers) responsibility to be sure of whom they're doing business with.

Something that occured to me - it's crystal clear now just why AN never quite 'got around' to setting up a merchant account to accept CC payments ;). Probably best anyway - the thought of them having my CC info makes me :erm:

I rsync my backups to a local linux box, bit slow to restore since it's only 256k upstream adsl, but it works.

Who knew all of AN's documents were public and everyone can see the relationship they had with their DC's. Where are you seeing these documents? Or are you just guessing that the DCs in question were never given the proper information? That they never collected money and had a standard relationship?

Companies go under all the time sticking vendors and customers alike. All the time. From furniture stores to restaurants. Those industries just aren't filled with 15 year olds basing their company on those companies. There is no way the DCs can be held responsible, they are victims the same as anyone else. Everyone could have demanded "documentation" from AN, not just the DCs, it was everyone's job to do their due dilligence.

Chet

same here, when TMS knowlingly gives aid to ilegal usage of their servers it is fully solidary liable on all resulting damage.


Key words there being knowingly and (albeit mispelled) illegal.

How was their usage of our servers illegal?

JoseQ

Originally posted by TMS - JoseQ
Key words there being knowingly and (albeit mispelled) illegal.

How was their usage of our servers illegal?

JoseQ

Because all the lawyers, i mean webhosts, said so. :laugh:

Everyone here seems to forget TMS is a victim also. They are out alot of money.

i studied law in europe, so i am not sure about USA / canada

obviously AN ran a pyramid sheme (snowball system)
the servers were sold below AN's cost of the servers and this got financed by bigger and bigger sales so that new customers are finanzing the servers of old customers and so on.
and when the point came where the money from the new signups were now longer sufficent to pay the due bills of existing customers the system blew up.

in europe running such shems/systems is illegal.
can anyone with law skills in USA say how this is in us-law?

Just two small tidbits:

1) I do daily automated backups to a 2nd HDD on the server too, which wouldn't be much help in case of a hack or if I got a prob with the provider. OTOH I do a monthly backup of all accounts and important dirs/config files to my own PC here at home, push the stuff on a DVD-R in two copies, one stays here in a drawer for if I'd have to upload something from it, and the other copy goes to the underground vault of a large Swiss bank, for the ultimate desaster case. While it still means that in worst case my customers would lose up to 30 days' worth of website updates and might have to wait 1-2 days for backup restoration (uploading several gigs over a 128K upstream line is not exactly fast), still this is the worst thing that can happen to their data --- I'd risk the statement a 1000x better than what happened here to a huge number of end users who didn't keep backups because they trusted their hosting companies who also didn't keep any remote backups neither because they believed in AN being responsible for their data integrity.

2) Just checked out Angelnetworkz.net, it's crazy how the site is still up and running and doesn't say anything about all this. The only thing I could see to have changed is that now you can't view their forums without registering and logging in (I'm not curious enough to see what they have to hide to register though).

alexmue, it is illegal as well, but you are guessing and have no proof that is true. Such guessing going to far could be considered libel, so I will not make any statement of fact by saying "obviously" AN did this or that.

Chet

Originally posted by RambOrc
Just two small tidbits:
2) Just checked out Angelnetworkz.net, it's crazy how the site is still up and running and doesn't say anything about all this. The only thing I could see to have changed is that now you can't view their forums without registering and logging in (I'm not curious enough to see what they have to hide to register though).

Meanwhile on the AN Forum

- Rachel and Donna dissapeared completely
- A 'xMarcx' (who the hell is he) posted one reaction and acted like all servers must have been up now
- Surprisingly that wasn't the case ... except for about 5 people who's server came up they are comming more and more reaction of people who payed managed and servers are still not up.
- Meanwhile also Texas servers are down again, also a lot of postings about that.
- Not forgetting the fact a few people who get the managed server up, were surprised cPanel was down because of 'no payment'
- Also a lot of posting got closed or deleted bij Jon (and giving warningpoints), seems to be the only one left.
- Jon is making ANOTHER list of people who payed and server still isn't up .. altough KEVIN should have done this ...
- Jon couldn't reach managed ..
- And than the news came the sales people from managed who handle the payments are gone till tuesday
- Basicly ... it's a disaster.

Originally posted by chet
alexmue, it is illegal as well, but you are guessing and have no proof that is true. Such guessing going to far could be considered libel, so I will not make any statement of fact by saying "obviously" AN did this or that.

thanks for info

TMS JoseQ: Like I said, Donna was selling below cost even before the free months, so if you count that, she was selling at less than half her cost


AN sold the servers far below half of their cost!!! (considering additional cost for CPanel licenses and support its even more likly that servers got sold at a quater of the costs)
This can be only done with pyramid sheme.

as you just confirmed such sheme is illeagal in USA.

As above statement shows TMS was aware of that AN is using such practice and supported that by delivering servers.
This is knowlingly aid, so TMS is solidarly liable for all occourd damages.

Originally posted by alexmue
thanks for info


AN sold the servers far below half of their cost!!! (considering additional cost for CPanel licenses and support its even more likly that servers got sold at a quater of the costs)
This can be only done with pyramid sheme.

as you just confirmed such sheme is illeagal in USA.

As above statement shows TMS was aware of that AN is using such practice and supported that by delivering servers.
This is knowlingly aid, so TMS is solidarly liable for all occourd damages. It doesn't prove anything, especially some form of "aiding and abetting". Donna repeatedly stated that she was able to offer such low prices in an effort to increase the customer base because she wasn't relying on the income from the servers to cover the cost of them. She supposedly had numerous ventures with which to fund the server leases.

TMS is guilty of nothing, and for you to continually try and claim such is truly a sad thing. Jose has done as much to help stranded ANz customers as anyone else, and probably more.

It's time for you to back off a bit.

<edit>
Never mind....It's not important.
</edit>

You guys are wrongly mistaken if you think you can hold either TMS or Managed.com liable because you didn't do proper research before choosing your host.

Just as TMS/Managed should have done a more detailed lease process on "Donna Doe" before leasing her servers, you should have done better research before leasing servers from her. This happened last year, those of you with her, you choose to stay...those of you who weren't with her at that time, you didn't do proper research.

It's not going to do any good to try to lay blame anywhere outside of you <> AN. It was a very very unfortunate thing that happened to you, and Donna Doe should be shamed forever and hopefully removed from the hosting industry for it...but...it's definitely wasn't her providers fault.

It's been said dozens of times that selling a server for this cheap isn't a sustainable business plan. This is an example of what eventually happens...and will continue to happen to providers who sell servers for as cheap as they possibly can.

My question here is why are people pointing the finger at TMS? TMS is still in business, the servers that are paid for by other customers are up and operating. I have 3 servers there, all have operated smoothly for some time now (some for almost 2 years). Oh, I forgot, I pay my bills which allows Jose the luxury of not having to unplug my server.

The business plan for AN was clearly flawed. They sold servers for half their cost. One can only assume they intended to make up the costs of these servers by offering additional value added services such as management, design, etc....

This all goes back to "you get what you pay for", in most cases I don't always believe that but this is a stereotypical example that makes that a true statement today.

Why don't the AN customers give credit where credit is due...to the ownership/management for AngelNetworkz. They and they only are responsible for this fiasco.

As for the alleged "pyramid scheme", I can only say that is laughable.

I sincerely hope all the survivors of this AN scandall can find their way to a reliable reputable provider who isn't going to forget to send the payments.

Originally posted by alexmue
thanks for info


AN sold the servers far below half of their cost!!! (considering additional cost for CPanel licenses and support its even more likly that servers got sold at a quater of the costs)
This can be only done with pyramid sheme.

as you just confirmed such sheme is illeagal in USA.

As above statement shows TMS was aware of that AN is using such practice and supported that by delivering servers.
This is knowlingly aid, so TMS is solidarly liable for all occourd damages. Of course TMS and Managed.com were aware of Donna insane pricing - Jose was sceptical himself. However, Donna's response always explained how it was a loss-leader tactic, and that she was taking profits from other areas of her "business" and using it to pay for the servers. There's nothing illegal about what TMS or Managed.com did.

This posting came from xAngelx Mark (whoever he is) on the AN forum :

I havn't been speaking on AIM, or on the Forums in the past 2 days due to flooding an spam from Forums and On AIM. Seems like everything is cooled down agian.

Has anyone that said "switch to managed" had there server online yet?
People who are staying with AN most of you have got your server online by now I guess?


Are they just waiting on everything to cool down ?

Originally posted by incript_services
First
Managed.com

then
Cpanel.net

and now
TMS

what next ...

You forget, Burst.net cut them off back in Feb or March for apparently not paying their bill with burst so "First" would be Burst.net etc.

Originally posted by nickn
You guys are wrongly mistaken if you think you can hold either TMS or Managed.com liable because you didn't do proper research before choosing your host.

Just as TMS/Managed should have done a more detailed lease process on "Donna Doe" before leasing her servers, you should have done better research before leasing servers from her. This happened last year, those of you with her, you choose to stay...those of you who weren't with her at that time, you didn't do proper research.

Actually thats what i pointed out in the other thread, but AN-people wouldnt believe :)
When they buy something for a price which is obviously below cost, then something is wrong and most likely illegal. Espessially when additional there is no valid address available and the company has no phone and no fax. And furthermore the paypal money goes to a fancy emailaddress in a different country. All this lets all alarm clocks rings. Amazing that still so many people ordered.
When they bought anyway, than its their own fault.
Like the guy who buys the golden rolex at night on a street in harlem and next day crys around because he found out that its not an original.

But TMS is also guilty, since they should have noted too that there is something illeagal going on. but they had a "who cares? this brings me money so i dont care if customer act illeagal"-mentalaty which gets not covered by law. (just to point out again that TP didnt wanted to do business with AN, so not every company takes such kind of business)

Originally posted by Joshua
Of course TMS and Managed.com were aware of Donna insane pricing - Jose was sceptical himself. However, Donna's response always explained how it was a loss-leader tactic, and that she was taking profits from other areas of her "business" and using it to pay for the servers. There's nothing illegal about what TMS or Managed.com did.

yeahh, and donna is a proffessor who flys aircrafts and figthed in iraq.
please show me one single customer of donna out of her "other area of business where she made profit".
no, even when she said that, the fact that she has no own office, no own phone, no own fax and even no own paypal account (all these she borrowed from different other people) makes it somewhat obvious that this cant be correct. and TMS knew or should have knew that.

one more example to underline my point:
this John lapagapa or whatever borrowed donna his paypal account.
now people say he is responsible to get their money back.
but in fact he did exactly the same as TMS:
he borrowed her the paypal account, and TMS borrowed her servers. both she needed for her illeagal actions and these 2 helped her out.
so TMS is as moch responsible as this john, since more or less both did the same.

Originally posted by alexmue
yeahh, and donna is a proffessor who flys aircrafts and figthed in iraq.
please show me one single customer of donna out of her "other area of business where she made profit".
no, even when she said that, the fact that she has no own office, no own phone, no own fax and even no own paypal account (all these she borrowed from different other people) makes it somewhat obvious that this cant be correct. and TMS knew or should have knew that. [/B]

it's scary that people lease server from AN didn't notice Donna have no phone, fax, office, nor paypal account. all of them belong to someone else.

this is why i go with Servermatrix at least i know SM belong to the planet.

Originally posted by jt2377
it's scary that people lease server from AN didn't notice Donna have no phone, fax, office, nor paypal account. all of them belong to someone else.


This was a red flag for me too. One I overlooked in favor of price.

I kmust have had some karma credit because i was able to get out.

I had my server setup and after a short period of other negative things ( less than promised support, bad support answers, attitutde from staffetc ) I closed my account and asked for, and **GASP** actually go a refund.

Less than 2 weeks later the ship began to sink.

Lesson learned!

Chili

5 seconds ago I got this.

Michael there was an email sent out instructing clients to send payment to
payments@tailoredservers.com

Long story but paypal has stuck their nose into recent business and we
cannot use our own account anymore.

Donna

Are they freaking crazy? Im my home country some ANZ people wouldn't see sunshine agian.

I have almost 1000 euros in losses from the server being down and now they ask me to pay again? (I was DOWNLOADING my backups when they shut down the server)

Originally posted by ensermo
5 seconds ago I got this.

Michael there was an email sent out instructing clients to send payment to
payments@tailoredservers.com

Long story but paypal has stuck their nose into recent business and we
cannot use our own account anymore.

Donna

Yep. It's all PayPal's fault. :rolleyes:

At least they are consistent as of late.

Chili

Originally posted by ensermo
Im my home country some ANZ people wouldn't see sunshine agian.


And I don't mean The Netherlands! (South America / Caribbean!)

Originally posted by chili
Yep. It's all PayPal's fault. :rolleyes:

At least they are consistent as of late.

Chili

Yes I know. It's allways Paypals fault!
If they didn't exist I would't be able to press the
"Send money to a blackhole" button. :D

Evil people! Just taking my money and giving it to poor ANZ!:eek:

Do not send money to us (payments@tailoredservers.com) unless you've contacted us first. Before we can host your server directly for you, we need a release note from Angel Networkz, so please confirm that either via e-mail or Instant Messenger.

We cannot accept payment for single servers if they're staying with Angel Networkz. Those will need to be handled by AN somehow.

JoseQ

Thanks for the info Jose.

I wasn't planning on sending it anyway. If by some miracle you can have the server online again for 30 minutes so I finish the download I would be glad. If not I understand.

After that it's all yours again

Not that I don't trust you or any other company in the US (In fact I know a few that are the best) But I think having one around here (Holland) where I can drive to will be better!

here are some more links, hopefully these wont be removed

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:oD266I_aL-AJ:www.hosthideout.com/archive/topic/4382-1.html+%22donna+mercer%22+angelnetworkz&hl=en

http://www.askwebhosting.com/special/177/Angel_Networkz_Dedicated_servers.html

here is a classic ("she" runs her own computer store in toronto!)
http://forums.burst.net/showthread.php?postid=3581#post3581

and "she" is an ex airforce pilot!
http://forums.burst.net/showthread.php?postid=6893#post6893

http://forums.burst.net/showthread.php?postid=7280#post7280

this one is funny....
http://forums.burst.net/showthread.php?postid=10483#post10483

http://www.hosthideout.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4382

whahahahaha...


The only reason my clients are still with me is because I keep them informed, even if it's just an email to say the network is stuffed and I don't know why.


from http://forums.burst.net/showthread....d=3581#post3581

Yeah.. she's informing us allright!

you mean "he"

hehehe!

:)

Well, Rachel seems to be back spinning the web on the ANz forum. A few posts tonight. Most along the lines of 'emails from here to there' and 'there is no outstanding email forms' and my favorite... 'we paid all out money to Manages and TMS'

Also some pretty thick disregard for any thread on WHT and how it is all the inflamatory stuff about ANz that has caused the matter. Oh, that and their somehow impossiblly sudden, black-magical and unforseen loss of 80% of their managing clients.

You'd think thay would just call it endgame and move on....

Chili

holy cow chili

saw your site

me=unr 91 go wolfpack :)

Awwww....shucks. ANz suspended my forum account. I guess I can't any longer get my laugh for the day.

Darn.

Originally posted by LaurenStephens
http://forums.burst.net/showthread.php?postid=7280#post7280 Hmmm....Very interesting. In this thread she introduces "Aimee", a new staff member who lives in Thailand and gets paid half what another employee makes and does 20 times the work.

Wow.

But hold on now....Elsewhere (another forum) it's revealed that Aimee is in reality her sister! Err...That is, until someone pegs the pictures of "Aimee" as being those of the actress Elicia Cuthbert (not sure if that's correct or not).

Then there really is an Aimee, and she really is her sister, but she was just posting those pictures as a joke to see if anyone would catch it.

Uh.....huh. Right.

Anyone got any extra deep hip waders? The bull$#it is about to overflow the pair I have.

Originally posted by jt2377
it's scary that people lease server from AN didn't notice Donna have no phone, fax, office, nor paypal account. all of them belong to someone else.

this is why i go with Servermatrix at least i know SM belong to the planet. I signed up for one of her servers to check out the managed network and to play around with, so I was never overly concerned about it, but at the time of signing up you don't know that they have no phone, fax, office or PayPal account.

You're told that once you sign up you'll receive a phone number (you do. It's Kevin's cell phone), and you're told there is an office, and to be honest I can't even remember the last time I even used my fax so I never worry about a company having one.

And they do (or at least did) have a PayPal account that used the email address of 'billing@angelnetworkz.net'. At that point in time there's no way of knowing that it belongs to some kid in New Jersey...Even when it tells you that you've paid John LaGaipa such and such an ammount, it's pretty easy to assume that he's probably a partner in the company. One of my PayPal accounts, a commercial account with the company name, still has my name on it.

Originally posted by auctionSuite
Awwww....shucks. ANz suspended my forum account. I guess I can't any longer get my laugh for the day.

Darn.

I'll keep U informed cause I am still on it *to my big surprise* ...

It must have been my little story in which I parodied ANz' actions for the past few weeks. I'm sure that went over really well with them....Is it still there or did Rachel delete it?

Let's see .. meanwhile at AN's forum :

- Rachel closed a thread saying the following after xAngelx Brandon said he still got payed :

"Staff are paying for their servers too actually.
And nobody is getting a paycheck atm, not Brandon, nor myself, nor Kevin and not even Donna. Those are on hold till we deal with clients servers and refunds etc. "

Meanwhile on the AN forum ... Rachel closed another thread :

Donna :
"we're still waiting on hundreds of people to get back to us about what they want to do, until we've heard from everyone we can't set a schedule and atm less than a third of the people have contacted us."

Me :

"Well, in the letter was said refunds are gonna be paid back according to the first in, first out principal. Why dod they have to wait untill EVERYBODY has answered. They could start already with paybacks now.

Than the matter of the only a third have send their letter. Ofcourse if ur this well organised not everyone has gotten the letter. Maybe a part of them have just said 'screw them' and left without filing a refund or cancel because they have no hopes what so ever in seeing thei money back. Maybe some will not answer Donna's letter because they only made a complaint at paypel or VISA and waiting on that. If U have to wait till everybody has answered the letter it will be Xmas 2010 before U know it.

Or maybe they just wanna slow that part down and get some more money in first ? It's pretty expensive in paradise"

RACHEL :

"fast, we need to know who is staying and who is going. Then we'll know what monthly income will be coming in and then we can set the schedule to start sending refunds to people.

None of the money is even coming to us anymore, this ensures clients their payments go to their servers rather than having to trust us to send it. You can't accuse us of taking money we're not getting in the first place.

In the next few days we'll make attempts yet again to contact those that have not responded. If they still fail to respond we'll have to cancel their servers (and add them to the refund list if they have money coming to them).

Paypal can go over the account we were using, and if they do they'll see we kept none of the money paid into it. A few paychecks here and there were sent to a few staff (small amounts) and the rest went to the suppliers. There was no intention of fraud or anything of the sort we are being accused of. These are the rumours of ticked off clients and in some cases competitors.

They can't call it fraud when we kept none of the money for ourselves, we were all (with the exception of a few) paid via the management clients before, not out of the server money. If it were fraud we'd have to have kept the money but as paypal will notice when they go over the whole account, we didn't keep any of the money.

Think about it... the point of defrauding someone would be to get money from them and keep it. As the account will show, we did not keep any of it. Not a single penny.

People have taken a minor problem and turned it into a major one, mostly on lies and rumours posted by irate clients or competitors. I'm surprised WHT would let things get so far out of hand but they did allow it. Not much we can do there.

Within the next few days we'll have dealt with all servers. Then we'll know what sort of income we'll have and can then start contacting clients about getting their refunds paid back to them and make the needed arrangements.

*edit* forgot to add, for those who are cancelling and need their data we are working out something with managed to allow clients a window of opportunity to retrieve their data first. "

And i can't reply because YET ANOTHER CLOSED THREAD

I love these lines:

"If they still fail to respond we'll have to cancel their servers"
Too late! Someone already beat them to the punch!

"Then we'll know what sort of income we'll have and can then start contacting clients about getting their refunds paid back to them and make the needed arrangements."
If you're waiting on a refund, and it's going to be coming out of any income ANz generates now, you might be waiting awhile....

mine got unplugged last night as soon as I read this topic!

Will someone please show me what email AN supposedly sent out to their clients regarding transferring servers to Managed.com ?

People have taken a minor problem and turned it into a major one, mostly on lies and rumours posted by irate clients or competitors. I'm surprised WHT would let things get so far out of hand but they did allow it. Not much we can do there.

I have to love this one --- i wonder what she classes as a major problem

Originally posted by dab100
I have to love this one --- i wonder what she classes as a major problem

Apparently many many customer servers DEAD IN THE WATER is "not" a major problem.

I'm with you, wonder what IS a major problem?

This is smelling less like a "bad business booboo" and more like "outright scam" the more dirt that's dug up. Aimee who's a low paid asian tech, then a sister, then a famous actress pic used as a joke, haha funny? Yowza this is starting to make cyberwings look almost legit.

Selling servers below cost is always not a very good value proposition.

The interesting part in my email reply from donna is that no servers have been unpluged by tms and it must of crashed? I have requested to be transfered to tms lets see how that works out.

I guess when you lie enough, you would start believing in your own lies.

Let's revisit a quote for a moment here....

Originally posted by Rachel
People have taken a minor problem and turned it into a major one, mostly on lies and rumours posted by irate clients or competitors. I'm surprised WHT would let things get so far out of hand but they did allow it. Not much we can do there.

"I'm surprised WHT would let things get so far out of hand".....

As usual, blaming someone else for their screwups. If it's not WHT, it's PayPal. If not PayPal, it's managed. If not managed, it's their lousy customers for not paying them on time.

But in reality, she hit the nail on the head. "Irate customers". Had the ANz crew taken care of business and not allowed the customers to become irate in the first place there wouldn't be anything to complain about, would there?

I don't know if this is a scam or just an example of complete ineptitude in business. If it's not a scam, that's just pathetic.

For Sale: One server reseller business. We have hundreds of employees and data centers everywhere and we can buy more any time we want. Fantastic customer service by all sorts of imaginary friends. Currently operated by an air force pilot wounded in action. Must sell as vultures are closing in.

Love the sig who do we send enquires to donna@youvebeenscammed.com

Originally posted by ensermo
5 seconds ago I got this.

Michael there was an email sent out instructing clients to send payment to
payments@tailoredservers.com

Long story but paypal has stuck their nose into recent business and we
cannot use our own account anymore.

Donna

I don't think they were using their own account for a long time. :)

Originally posted by poolking
I don't think they were using their own account for a long time. :) Depends on the definition of "their own", I guess. Maybe "Donna" uses the same motto my ex-wife used to:

"What's mine is mine, and what's yours is mine."

Originally posted by dab100
Love the sig who do we send enquires to donna@youvebeenscammed.com :)

Anyway isn't it time to man the lifeboats. "The Good Ship Angel Networkz" is rapidly taking on water and sinking. :)

Sorry to be a little flippant, but do you really see them coming back after this fiasco?

Nope. Do you?

Of course, six months from now there'll be a new crop of consumers wanting cheap dedicated servers and ANz might be right there to deliver them into oblivion also.

One thing I still don't get... taking a look at angelnetworkz.net, I see dedicated servers starting at $90/month, didn't see anything below. After all this talk about cheapo servers, I was expecting something like P4 HT servers for 70 bucks and Celeron servers with 500 gigs/month for 50 bucks.

Well, not sure how long until the post I just made is deleted or my account at the AN forums is banned, but this was my response...

None of the money is even coming to us anymore, this ensures clients their payments go to their servers rather than having to trust us to send it. You can't accuse us of taking money we're not getting in the first place.
Rachel, with all due respect, people are pissed about the money they already sent you for services they did not receive. A few hundred dollars may not be much to AN or a DC but to a small business, or college students hosting sites for fun it is a LOT of money.

There was no intention of fraud or anything of the sort we are being accused of. These are the rumours of ticked off clients and in some cases competitors.
If a client pays for a service in advance and does not receive it, yes, they're going to get mad.

People have taken a minor problem and turned it into a major one, mostly on lies and rumours posted by irate clients or competitors. I'm surprised WHT would let things get so far out of hand but they did allow it. Not much we can do there.
Uh, wake up call - people having a server offline for what's going on a week now is not a "minor" problem, especially those who are running businesses. Paying for the same service twice within a one month span is not a "minor" problem.

Rachel, Donna, whoever - I have always defended you guys. There are (were) many others on here who did the same. I helped reassure your customers when the BOGO offers were suspended. I even helped reassure them when the cPanel issues started popping up. I had so much faith in AN that I turned a blind eye when those problems first appeared, even when my partner was urging me to move. I figured that every business hits rough spots and since you'd pulled out of the Burst episode last year so well, this should be a piece of cake.

Your #1 biggest mistake next to not having better financial planning is not informing your customers. I don't care how many phone calls Donna had to make or how busy Kevin was compiling lists. You should never, ever leave your customers in the dark the way you did. Add that to the fact that AN seems unable to apologize for any of this, and you wonder why there are multiple threads on WHT? You wonder why there are "irate" customers? :blink:

When I saw my business in jeopardy last week, I didn't wait around to see if everything would be stable. I made the needed arrangements, told our clients what was going on - the facts as we had them - and proceeded to move ~700 domains and 65GB+ of data over a 2 day span. We sent emails every few hours to keep them updated, and when a problem developed that delayed one of the server's move, we let them know about that as well.

I also had to be at the hospital for a day's worth of tests, take care of my daughter, take care of my husband, and try to find time to sleep in between all of that.

The point is, we kept our customers informed every step along the way, no matter what. This is an email we got from one of them yesterday:
I wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your tireless dedication to your clients. Once again you have gone above an beyond the call of duty. I am particularly pleased with your continuous email updates, as it allowed me to keep my own clients informed. With the internet mentality of "hit and run" it is my sincere pleasure to do business with a group who respects their clients as much as I respect my clients. Thank you for your professionalism, courtesy and most of all your integrity. You have my deepest gratitude.

Before you sit there blaming Paypal, Managed, TMS, your customers, and everyone but AN, take a look in the mirror. Ask yourselves why customers who adamantly defended you in the past are turning their backs on you now.


Probably won't make a speck of difference but I feel better :D

Probably won't make a difference, I doubt they even come on here anymore. :)

Originally posted by poolking
Probably won't make a difference, I doubt they even come on here anymore. :)

Oh, I made that post at their forums too ;)

Originally posted by P-nut
Oh, I made that post at their forums too ;)

Don't you mean Fort Knox or the secret society with the special handshake to gain access to the holy grail that is their forum? :)

Originally posted by poolking
Don't you mean Fort Knox or the secret society with the special handshake to gain access to the holy grail that is their forum? :)


rofl :D

Originally posted by poolking
Don't you mean Fort Knox or the secret society with the special handshake to gain access to the holy grail that is their forum? :)

:rofl: :rofl: Good one!

(Actually, it's a secret word that gets you in but shhhh...)

Originally posted by P-nut
:rofl: :rofl: Good one!

(Actually, it's a secret word that gets you in but shhhh...)

hahaha would that word be scam? fraud?

:D

cheers

Hi

I have not posted yet about all this AN stuff but this bugs me now what they have done to you all !

Its plain and simple they have done a runner with all the ££ or $$

Its not hard to work out ,

They have paid NO Server Rental Fees to any of the DC's thats why they have been cut off

They have paid NO CPanel fees

Where has all the ££ $$ gone paid in by customers ?

All money has been paid in by clients ( YOU ) they have paid none out to the DC's !!

Not hard to work out !

If they where in the UK they would have been contacted within days of reports by the Police for Fraud or taking money by deception.

Specialy as the truth has come out they have not payed bills for months to managed.com at least prob the same with all the DC's.

If it was me as soon as I found out they had not payed DC bills I would of filled for a refund direct to my credit card company or paypal I would not of waited.

I use a reseller now and that does not bother me as you cant tar everyone with the same brush however I would never pay more than 1 month at a time and I do a weekly backup of all my files and sites for the server direct to my home PC just incase of a server failure.

Just my 2 cents worth

Ian

Hrm no word from Donna yet, I wonder if she will stop by and chime in some words soon...

Originally posted by RambOrc
One thing I still don't get... taking a look at angelnetworkz.net, I see dedicated servers starting at $90/month, didn't see anything below. After all this talk about cheapo servers, I was expecting something like P4 HT servers for 70 bucks and Celeron servers with 500 gigs/month for 50 bucks. For the past several months they've been running "Buy One, Get One Free" offers every week, meaning if you pay for one month you get one for free.

At one point they were offering Celeron 2.4's for $60 a month (BOGOF = $30/mo) and AMD 2800s for $80 a month (BOGOF = $40/mo). All with 1000 gigs.

Is that cheap enough for you?

OK, now I see why they had to go belly up.

auctionSuite - I love your sig :)

Why, thank you....

:)

Just trying to add a bit of levity to a very un-funny situation.

Originally posted by RambOrc
One thing I still don't get... taking a look at angelnetworkz.net, I see dedicated servers starting at $90/month, didn't see anything below. After all this talk about cheapo servers, I was expecting something like P4 HT servers for 70 bucks and Celeron servers with 500 gigs/month for 50 bucks.

See their buy one get one free deals ;) - http://www.webhostingtalk.com/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=2809448&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Anyone have email headers from other AN "employees" that you had received ? example Rachel etc, I be interested in them

Originally posted by sprintserve
Anyone have email headers from other AN "employees" that you had received ? example Rachel etc, I be interested in them

Donna, Rachel, Tara, Kevin. Take your pick :P

The last 3 :)

I had one each from Tara and Samantha, but the headers were the same as those from Donna.

Yup. That's what I am trying to prove. Can you email them to me :) cm AT webhostingtalk.com

Originally posted by sprintserve
Yup. That's what I am trying to prove. Can you email them to me :) cm AT webhostingtalk.com Wish I could, but I lost them in a server crash 9 days ago (ValueWeb, not ANz).

When all the speculation about "multiple personalities" started surfacing, I did check the headers though.

I've seen a few people who have mentioned having them. A good place to look for Tara and Samantha would be the pre-welcome letter (i.e. the email sent advising you what steps to take for payment, nameservers, etc.), pre-sales communication, and then invoices and questions about invoices.

PS: The only one I ever got from Donna was the welcoming email.

I have emails from Donna. So I need others.

I believe I have an e-mail from Tara. Let me look it up. I might have erased it because it was from months ago, before this happened.

Originally posted by lifeinpoetry
I believe I have an e-mail from Tara. Let me look it up. I might have erased it because it was from months ago, before this happened. That's what I did....I only kept the two of them because they were related to setup and an issue I was having that they couldn't seem to resolve.

sprintserve, in one of these two outrageously long threads about ANz, the headers from several emails from a variety of "individuals" within the company were posted and almost all of them showed that they all came from a single computer on a Rogers cable connection in Canada.

Don't they have an office in Canada and I would assume if they had a few computer they would all be setup the same network using a router or something.

That would account for the isp.

Just pointing out what I have read.

At this point .. does it really matter? If its one, two or ten people working at ANZ. I mean I allready have accepted the fact that I'm not gonna see a penny back. Neither paypal nor mastercard can do something they told me. (in the Netherlands)

Ohhh wel... whats a few hundred bucks to a student trying to survive! Just two years of food .. lol...

I know that sucks... but hey look at it this way ensermo... these are lessons that you can't buy even if you wanted to pay.. LOL

Originally posted by x-2o
Don't they have an office in Canada and I would assume if they had a few computer they would all be setup the same network using a router or something.

That would account for the isp.

Just pointing out what I have read. Regarding the office in Canada, that's already been proven a falacy. No "AngelNetworkz" at 3400 whatever street....

And if you recall from the ANz forums, a lot of Donna's and Rachel's emails were sent from home.

I for one am curious as to why there is a flood of activitie on ANz's site from people who want to pay to get their servers back. Are they just desparate to get their data back and are keeping their cards close to the vest, or are they just dumb enough to keep throwing good money after bad?

can someone post or atleast PM me kevin's cell phone number? or post a reverse lookup of it?

Donna 1:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm00111ae5f4cc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([69.192.72.152] helo=angel7vnjidu13)by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.41)

Donna 2:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([69.192.72.152] helo=donna) by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34)

Rachel:
Received: from [69.192.72.152] (helo=angelbhgkf0mf5) by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.41)

Rachel 2 (Sales):
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([69.192.72.152] helo=angelbhgkf0mf5 by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34)

Tara 1:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([69.192.72.152] helo=donna) by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34)

Tara 2 (Sales):
Received: from [69.192.72.152] (helo=angelbhgkf0mf5) by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.41)

Kevin:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm00111ae5f4cc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com ([69.192.72.152] helo=Angelmobile) by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.41)

Tracy:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com
([69.192.72.152] helo=angelbhgkf0mf5)

Sarah:
Received: from [69.192.72.152] (helo=angelbhgkf0mf5) by angel10.angelnetworkz.net with asmtp (Exim 4.34)


Analysis:
1. All the emails came from the same connection at home cable in Rogers with an IP of 69.192.72.152 and a hostmask of cpe000795d8dc20-cm00111ae5f4cc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com

Traceroute and ping shows it live:

16 287 ms 301 ms 286 ms gw01.mtmc.phub.net.cable.rogers.com [66.185.81.1
69]
17 299 ms 309 ms 290 ms 66.185.82.73
18 291 ms 312 ms 296 ms 66.185.90.85
19 295 ms 303 ms 295 ms CPE000795d8dc20-CM00111ae5f4cc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com [69.192.72.152]

2. Matches in helo names of Tara with Donna. Matches of Rachel, Sarah and Tracy. This implies that it's the same machine.

3. At the least, it's all from the same location, at the most, it could just be the same person. It could be multiple machines or it could one machine with the Machine name changed now.


I know it doesn't really help anyone, but it's just an academic exercise. Just a quick and simple compilation. May not prove anything, but it gives you some information to understand and grabble with what kind of duplicity you may be facing.


[[Edited to add new information]]

at the minimum all this does is show that they all were atleast in the same location on a network sharing the same cable modem.


At the most it goes to show they are all the same person :)

Goodie, I love Bank of America, last week I sent the complain and now the funds are "on-hold" :)

I didn't recovered the $130 but atleast I got $64.56 back (or in the process to) :D

{sometimes having a CC on the PayPal account when you don't have enough money in it is nice, I choosed to change the method to credit card and not instant transfer, I'm glad I did :D }

Originally posted by Francisco
Goodie, I love Bank of America, last week I sent the complain and now the funds are "on-hold" :)

I didn't recovered the $130 but atleast I got $64.56 back (or in the process to) :D

{sometimes having a CC on the PayPal account when you don't have enough money in it is nice, I choosed to change the method to credit card and not instant transfer, I'm glad I did :D }

Where you within the 30 day period ?

Or it shows that they have a mail server at that location that they can log in to using a web interface. Not in the habit of defending ANz, but there are other reasons for what we're seeing than them being the same person or in the same place.

I also dug up some old emails exchanged with Kevin during the Nocster fiasco:

Received: from donna ([63.139.102.215]) by fep03-mail.bloor.is.net.cable.rogers.com (InterMail vM.5.01.05.12 201-253-122-126-112-20020820) with ESMTP

Different IP as that was a long time ago (and cable companies usually are dynamic IP and changes it every few months) but it's the same machine name. (i.e. donna)

Originally posted by Francisco
{sometimes having a CC on the PayPal account when you don't have enough money in it is nice, I choosed to change the method to credit card and not instant transfer, I'm glad I did :D } [/B]

We switched our account to where we added a credit card on PayPal too after the ANz thing. Bugs me how much work it requires to make a credit card purchase though, it won't let you select it as a default, you have to actually reselect it, then go through the ******** screen of how much more convenient it is to direct withdraw it from the bank FOR EVERY TRANSACTION.

I'm thinking of cancelling the link to the bank account on this and creating another account for receiving payments just because of how annoying this is.

Originally posted by MagiCat
Or it shows that they have a mail server at that location that they can log in to using a web interface. Not in the habit of defending ANz, but there are other reasons for what we're seeing than them being the same person or in the same place.

You can't run a mail server on home cable and if that's the case, the helo should be the same everytime .

Originally posted by MagiCat
Or it shows that they have a mail server at that location that they can log in to using a web interface. Not in the habit of defending ANz, but there are other reasons for what we're seeing than them being the same person or in the same place.

In Windows, the HELO name is the name of the computer sending it, not the server that it was sent through. For instance, if I send an email from my home computer through simpli.biz, the HELO name will show 'corkyserver' (that's the name I've given my desktop in Windows), not 'simpli.biz' or 'simpli' (the name of the mail server.)

HTH. Yes, I believe that all of the females (or most of them) working at ANz are the same person. But I also believe the person behind all of those names is a female.

-Erica

there are quite a few funny things out there if you google their name ie this comes up for "Rachel Marsden"

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_marsden20021121

I wonder if that is our Rachel? haha

Originally posted by Simpli-Erica
In Windows, the HELO name is the name of the computer sending it, not the server that it was sent through. For instance, if I send an email from my home computer through simpli.biz, the HELO name will show 'corkyserver' (that's the name I've given my desktop in Windows), not 'simpli.biz' or 'simpli' (the name of the mail server.)

HTH. Yes, I believe that all of the females (or most of them) working at ANz are the same person. But I also believe the person behind all of those names is a female.

-Erica

But if I've set my computer up as an outgoing mail server which forwards to another server to send the mail, then the HELO name would be the Windows one.

Yeah, the whole thing does sound fishy. Just that headers don't always tell the story.

Well like I said, then all the helo should be the same (And it isn't) Any good self-respecting mail server though would capture the helo of the sending machine even if you use webmail .

Originally posted by wiresix-Ryan
there are quite a few funny things out there if you google their name ie this comes up for "Rachel Marsden"

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_marsden20021121

I wonder if that is our Rachel? haha Ehh....Could be!

Crown counsel has requested an evaluation of her mental state.

"The owner is Donna Mercer, I (Kevin Johnstone) and Samantha Weston share the title of VP of Angel Networkz"

excerpt from another forum..... so who is this Samantha person?

Originally posted by wiresix-Ryan
"The owner is Donna Mercer, I (Kevin Johnstone) and Samantha Weston share the title of VP of Angel Networkz"

excerpt from another forum..... so who is this Samantha person?

Well i remember i used to receive emails from Samantha when i was memeber there.She used to send emails on anything where it is support or billing or anything.Earlier it looked that the company is really dedicated since we thought that company CEO's , VP's all take interest in interacting with clients.

We never knew what was hidden behind all of it.

Maybe it's a multiple personality syndrome thing. Rachel, Donna, and Tara all think they're 3 separate people who communication by voice mail and e-mail. Surprisingly, none of the 3 have really wondered why they have never spoke.

Here's a post by Samantha Weston for ANz on another forum....It does sound a lot like Donna.

And Rachel.

http://www.searchengines.pl/phpbb203/index.php?showtopic=14618

<edit>
After looking at it again, it's not a post, it's an email copied into a post. Nevertheless.....
</edit>

I may have to dig out the old CSDetector...

Many Uni's have cheat detection software. Some, in particular the Uni I attended, had a very nifty module which could detect to a very good % probability if a person writing an essay/email/whatever was posing as someone else. This was based around many criteria like spelling, misspelling consistancies, grammatical trends and even smiley inflexions (for newsgroups). The software was primarily used for discovering students who were copying other students software projects...

Something else - is AN a registered company in Canada with a list of officers etc? Or is really a self-employed venture...?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by biTe
When I wanted to make my first payment via WU to ANz, I was told to pay to Kelvin Johnston, instead of to a company. I asked why am I not paying to a company.... Donna told me its easier for them to collect if paid to an individual... and to put in a test question and answer in the WU payment note, and email same info to sales so Kelvin won't have to show any ID when collecting..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Anybody has a clue who KELVIN JOHNSTON is ?

Originally posted by TheDuke
Many Uni's have cheat detection software. Some, in particular the Uni I attended, had a very nifty module which could detect to a very good % probability if a person writing an essay/email/whatever was posing as someone else. This was based around many criteria like spelling, misspelling consistancies, grammatical trends and even smiley inflexions (for newsgroups). The software was primarily used for discovering students who were copying other students software projects...


Just playing devil's advocate again, a company might have standard replies to standard questions which would make everyone seem like the same person.

Originally posted by MagiCat
Just playing devil's advocate again, a company might have standard replies to standard questions which would make everyone seem like the same person.

The replies aren't standard replies if you had seen them. You need to play a better devil :P

A few more headers sent to me...

Kelly:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com
([69.192.72.152] helo=donna


Donna:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com
([69.192.72.152] helo=donna)


Tara:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com
([69.192.72.152] helo=donna)


Rachel:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com
([69.192.72.152] helo=donna)


Kevin:
Received: from cpe000795d8dc20-cm000a73995398.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com
([69.192.72.152] helo=donna)


Mmm. Looks like all 100 staff, all used the same machine.

I think sprintserver evidence says it all.

Originally posted by wiresix-Ryan
there are quite a few funny things out there if you google their name ie this comes up for "Rachel Marsden"

http://vancouver.cbc.ca/regional/servlet/View?filename=bc_marsden20021121

I wonder if that is our Rachel? haha

ROFL! hey dont that looks similar to Donna as posted here http://www.whtfaces.com/index.php?s=X

:stickout: :stickout:

Originally posted by thefast
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by biTe
When I wanted to make my first payment via WU to ANz, I was told to pay to Kelvin Johnston, instead of to a company. I asked why am I not paying to a company.... Donna told me its easier for them to collect if paid to an individual... and to put in a test question and answer in the WU payment note, and email same info to sales so Kelvin won't have to show any ID when collecting..

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Anybody has a clue who KELVIN JOHNSTON is ?

Sorry I typed it wrong... 2 places as well.. my bad.. I already posted an update on the other thread.. it's the same KEVIN JOHNSTONE.. :D

Mmm. Looks like all 100 staff, all used the same machine.

Could be a router and a cable line to a few computers using NAT.

Helo is the machine name.

Originally posted by xRachelx
Think about it... the point of defrauding someone would be to get money from them and keep it. As the account will show, we did not keep any of it. Not a single penny.

:eek3: I thought the whole point of running a business was not only getting money from clients, but keeping it as well?

Where was that posted?

Well I guess the money and prepayments just went into a void.

I haven't caught up with this thread yet, but look back at thefast's post on 9/6.
My impression is 'the void' is PayPal.

Originally posted by wiresix-Ryan
I wonder if that is our Rachel? haha

:eek: Looks like a real bunny-boiler! I feel sorry for the swim coach, though.

Originally posted by saj
ROFL! hey dont that looks similar to Donna as posted here http://www.whtfaces.com/index.php?s=X

Oh, That's the picture everyone's been talking about!

Now I'm caught up!

edit: guess not...
http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=316510
New to me...

I hadn't seen whtfaces previously, I clicked on the link and found the picture of the angelznetwork employee Jon even funnier. If I was 14 and worked for a webhosting company, I probably wouldn't upload a picture. I suppose it explains the maturity level of many of their staffers from what contact I saw.

Originally posted by BitError
I hadn't seen whtfaces previously, I clicked on the link and found the picture of the angelznetwork employee Jon even funnier. If I was 14 and worked for a webhosting company, I probably wouldn't upload a picture. I suppose it explains the maturity level of many of their staffers from what contact I saw.

Yeah, if I was 14 and worked for a webhosting company, I'd at least wytch a mustache onto my face ;-)

Originally posted by sprintserve
Where was that posted?

Well I guess the money and prepayments just went into a void.

It was posted on the AN forum.

Originally posted by BitError
I hadn't seen whtfaces previously, I clicked on the link and found the picture of the angelznetwork employee Jon even funnier. If I was 14 and worked for a webhosting company, I probably wouldn't upload a picture. I suppose it explains the maturity level of many of their staffers from what contact I saw.

I think their 'staff' were mostly kids getting free hosting and the kick calling themself support. Maybe they were promised BIG things for the future.

Can't understand why some of the kids are still trying to work things out altough they have no control about what is happening. Maybe it is all well meant but are they griving other graves again.

The one thing I am wondering was ... AN had hundreds of servers .. beside the few people (max. 5 or so) i have seen telling us their servers got up i havn't seen much other servers seen comming up. The whole forum on AN is about people telling they send the money and who's server isn't up yet.

Is this yet another scam ?

Originally posted by thefast
Is this yet another scam ?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all functional servers are now the result of payments which have been made to the PayPal accounts of TMS and Managed. I think those others have paid AN directly, (and into a locked account - can those still accept payments?) in some vain hope of collecting all those free months (plus some more for their patience) in the future. We'll see...

But on AN people were reporting the servers of TMS were comming down again ?

I am sure their paypal accounts have been locked up, so those who sent money probably lose it for good, as Paypal will be using whatever balance to settle the chargebacks and complains that are coming in . While there's sympathy for them at the start, if they still decided to pay AN, they deserve everything they got (which is nothing)

Originally posted by thefast
But on AN people were reporting the servers of TMS were comming down again ?

I don't know how anyone ever got the impression those servers coming back up was anything but a temporary emergency measure to allow people to grab their data and run, with the option to pay TMS directly to *keep* the servers on. So of course they're down again - but only for customers of AN, presumably.

It's all one big scam ...

Originally posted by thefast
It's all one big scam ...


heh indeed AN is a joke ;)

Originally posted by wiresix-Ryan
heh indeed AN is a joke ;) Yeah, unfortunately the joke turned out to be on everyone who trusted them as a provider.

Originally posted by sprintserve
I am sure their paypal accounts have been locked up, so those who sent money probably lose it for good, as Paypal will be using whatever balance to settle the chargebacks and complains that are coming in . While there's sympathy for them at the start, if they still decided to pay AN, they deserve everything they got (which is nothing)

I sent a 1 penny payment to the ANz account (the original one that they used) and it got returned saying that the account was no longer accepting payments.

Originally posted by BigBison
I don't know how anyone ever got the impression those servers coming back up was anything but a temporary emergency measure to allow people to grab their data and run, with the option to pay TMS directly to *keep* the servers on. So of course they're down again - but only for customers of AN, presumably.

Exactly, I mentioned earlier that I thought it was a cool gesture of TMS to make sure that ANz customers got their data and had a chance to make other arrangements. Too bad TMS probably couldn't overtly say this, but I thought it was pretty apparent what was happening.

I'd go with TMS if I could get one of their servers for a similar price as I was paying ANz (even without the BOGOF offer) :)

auctionsuite, may I suggest the following change to your siggie:

For Sale: One server reseller business. We have hundreds of employees and data centers everywhere and we can buy more any time we want. Fantastic customer service by all sorts of imaginary friends. Currently operated by an air force pilot wounded in action. Must sell as vultures are closing in. Does not include CPanel license.

Or, how about, "Includes cPanel reselling rights. cPanel licenses not included."

?