Hi Guyz...

Thank God that we have not seen such an offer till now in WHT. :stickout


HOW MUCH SPACE & TRAFFIC DO WE NEED?

Let's have a thumb rule, something like :

1 HTML file (2-3 scrolls) weighs : 5KB
1 button weighs : 2KB
1 image weighs : 15KB

Let's take an example of a corporate or small business site, which will have 10 pages.

So, that site needs :

10 HTML files = 50KB
10 buttons = 20KB (for 10 buttons)
30 images = 450KB (assuming 3 images/page)
-------
TOTAL = 520KB
=====

If we use MouseOver buttons, add 20KB for another set of 10 buttons. So, we require maximum 540KB space.

Keeping in mind about storage of emails, transferring files, fp extension files, pre-installed cgi scripts etc., a site with 10-20 HTML pages does not require more than 5MB space.

Now about traffic....

When a unique visitor visits all these 10 pages (which very rarely happens) a traffic of 520KB is generated according to the above example. Here by 'unique visitor' I mean the first time visitor. For repeat visitors, the traffic is not generated so much, as most of the files remain in the browser cache. However, let's assume that 50 first-time visitors are visiting our site everyday and visiting all the 10 pages (???), then the site generates 520KB x 50 = 26000KB = 25MB (approx) per day = 750MB per month....with some more cushion...1000MB traffic per month.

A 1000MB traffic/month web-host is available at $3 or so per month.

So, if you calculate the actual usage of your site following the above thumb rule, you know how much space and traffic do you require.

So, if you require 5MB space and 1000MB traffic per month, and go for an offer like 10GB space with 25GB Traffic/mo (which you never use) @ $7.99/mo, you waste $5 or $6 per month.

You should not calculate the price of web-hosting using simple arithmatic:

if a 5MB space with 250MB traffic costs $1/month, then an offer like 10GB space with 25GB traffic/mo at $7.99 is definitely cheaper.

NO. In web-hosting business, things do not work like that. If you go by that rule, you ultimately pay out more from your pocket.

If you don't believe me, just ask such a provider that you have 3 sites, which currently uses 15GB transfer/mo, and you want to shift to them.

Firstly, my guess, they won't answer at all.

Second, if they answer, they'll ask how do you have 'so much' of traffic?

If you say that you have 10 free software of 750K each, and people download it throughout the world, I bet, you wont receive any further response.

That's it.

Those providers also know that it's extremely hard to generate 15/25GB traffic/mo without downloading free files, which they normally don't allow you to. And what about using the 10GB space with these small HTML and image files? That's also very hard.

But, if someone really has that huge site, which generates such a huge traffic/mo, you bet, that's a BIG company. That will go for a dedicated server and not for a web-hosting account with someone else.

Hope this helps....

:beer:

I apologize in advance, but this most definately deserves a response to dispell the myths of heavy-load servers.

EssEss, offering a quarter of the server for a quarter of the price (as compared to average web hosts) seems like a great idea but is fundamentally flawed as a business plan. Here's why:

1- Too much bulk on a single server. Regardless of the control panel or server abilities loading down a web server with potentially thousands of domain names per IP address is a deadly combination. Apache comfortably holds 200-300 Domains per server (hence restrictions set by systems such as Cobalt RaQ, Plesk, etc.), IIS being very much the same.

2- Insane credit processing fees. The reason web hosts have established their prices in and around $8-$19 dollar per month is to sell their space with minimal middleman fees. Regardless of who your merchant provider is there will always be some kind of base transaction fee ($0.25 - $0.60 per transaction) which at the level you're operating at will increase your fees exponentially. Even with the yearly pre-paid registration (yes, I did check out the site) you're taking a serious cut in your profit margin.

Think about it. I'd love to see your business succeed but am concerned issues like this will not only hinder progress but also create alot of unhappy website-refugees if they are forced to leave your service.

Regards,

-Doc

Originally posted by EssEss
If you don't believe me, just ask such a provider that you have 3 sites, which currently uses 15GB transfer/mo, and you want to shift to them. Firstly, my guess, they won't answer at all.

If they don't answer they don't want your business and are a silly host. I only offer what I am able to deliver.

But, if someone really has that huge site, which generates such a huge traffic/mo, you bet, that's a BIG company.

No. There are many fan sites or forums using way more than your 1GB traffic/month.

I think we have to see this from other perspective. Actually, in the early days of web hosting, they charge more than $7.99 for 5MB space and 500KB traffic. However, the web hosting competition gets tougher, and price/value matters to attract customers, so the industry is willing to give more with the same price.

At the same time, there are some basic costs that need to be taken care of and some company cannot go lower than a certain price for their services. For some, it is better to provide larger space and bandwidth rather than lowering the cost. In this case, small amount of space and less bandwidth may cost more for the company. In other words, it's about finding the sweet spot.

:)

One thing I don't understand is the bandwidth game.

To me, I would not risk it. Just to dam dangerous.

The client is the one that get's burned at the end, because the hosting companies see this client using his 30 gigs, then they give the client the boot. I'm more comfortable pricing with profit built in and in the long run never having to loose the customer.

Now server resources is another matter. That I would watch like a hawk.

Mike from adehost

My company adehost.com

I agree with you Mike. Bandwidth game is dangerous. I've seen a lot of company are doing this though, and I saw 80-90% of them are in the winning side. I guess it's like stock market eh :) The higher the risk, the higher the return?

Rey

you're taking a serious cut in your profit margin.


Doc -- Profit Margin is a relative term. It depends upon your overhead values. It all depends upon how big your office is, how much rent do you pay for it, where do you live, what is the living cost of that place.....etc. etc. all these.

Think about it. I'd love to see your business succeed but am concerned issues like this will not only hinder progress but also create alot of unhappy website-refugees if they are forced to leave your service.

No, they do not leave. If they know the actual picture about how much space and traffic they 'really' can use, their is no chance to get unhappy. As you have mentioned about my business, I need to say here that I'm in web-hosting business since last 4 years (not with this domain name), and I have seen clients asking for lower space with lower traffic and naturally with lower price tag.

If they don't answer they don't want your business and are a silly host. I only offer what I am able to deliver.

Exactly. They're trying to show a rosy picture and trying to create some imaginary comfort, which they know that clients will never use it. They offer something, which they can't deliver. Their offers are game plans and not business plans.

No. There are many fan sites or forums using way more than your 1GB traffic/month.

I was talking about 15/25GB Traffic per month. ;)

it's about finding the sweet spot.

Yes. If one knows her space/traffic requirements, she should go for the right offer at the lowest possible price tag, considering other factors of the hosting company, like reputation, service standard etc. That should be the 'S-Spot'. ;)

The client is the one that get's burned at the end, because the hosting companies see this client using his 30 gigs, then they give the client the boot.

Doc -- this is *the* reason for getting the new term 'website-refugee'.

I guess it's like stock market eh The higher the risk, the higher the return?

May be true for the extra-large hosting providers. They afford to take this risk, with minimal damages to the clients' interests. Of course, their price tags are always above $10/mo. I was concerned about most of the clients who go for small hosting providers. Should they host with stock-market type hosting providers? What benefits do clients get? Ultimately happy or unhappy 'website-refugee'?

EssEss

I like to have a bandwidth cushion. My sites usually use around 15gb/month. I am allowed 30gb. The host I'm with has plans for both 15 and 30 gigs.

The reason I am with the 30 gigger is that if I were to burn 16 gigs on the 15gb plan, the overage charge for just that one gig would push the cost up and over that of the 30gb/month plan.

I'm with www.phenominet.com and when I emailed them before signing up, I told them how much transfer I needed and he said not a problem at all.

I guess what I am saying in all this rambling is that it's always nice to have extra transfer available, and not having it could end up costing you in the long run (if you go over the limit) :D

Hi Mester,

phenominet's own dedicate server plan says :

316 GB/mo costs $295 /mo.

Just guess, to meet this, if they put 10 30gb sites in a server, they get only $199.50 per month.

How long are you hosting with them? I've nothing against them though....

Regards

EssEss

Hi :)

I've been with them for about 4 months now. I assume they cram a lot of sites on a server, and they can do it (i think) because they don't provide an open cgi-bin - you need to check each script - (their only real downfall in my opinion). The servers also aren't quite as fast as others I've been hosted with, but its not noticable to me - I just use http://webservices.cnet.com/ping/

:D

At ridiculously low prices, but then they shut customers down, or use the customer's sites as an excuse to explain why their services are down instead of admitting it's their server issues. *cough* Liquidweb *cough* Not only does this hurt the customers but it hurts legitimate hosts too. If not for word of mouth, I personally wouldn't glance at a host that offered 15/25Gig at less than 30-40 bucks. And even then... I don't find them very trust worthy. It's unfair because other hosts *are* legitimate.

As a customer only, I'd say Mike is 100% right. Not only is loyality important, but word of mouth... I will tell everyone that while Liquidweb offers incredible features, they lie about their bandwidth... I've posted it on my website before, and all my visitors know about it, and I've posted it on non-webhosting related forums. You guys may call it the "bandwidth game" I call it fraud.

When I buy a gallon of milk I drink as much can, but inevitably it goes sour before I get to the end. However, the day a grocer tries to sell me a quart of milk in a gallon jug... I'm gonna raise holy hell, because there are those rare times when I *do* finish the gallon. I know that's a really stupid analogy, but I hope you can see what I'm talking about.

Don't sell what you can't offer. It may be hurting the customer now, but it will come back and bite you... hard. You may be able to sucker newbie customers, but eventually they wise up (like they did to that whole "unlimited" scheme) and then where does your company go? You've already got a bad rep in a very fickle and risky business market...

But hell, as long as you sales guys know how to say, "Would you like fries with that?" I'm sure you'll weather the impending storm just fine...


>:09
ochiba

bravo ociba bravo........we needed this voice in this jungle.....bravo....i'm proud of you.......

These ppl even never let u know u a reason....before u realize that u r a 'website refugee'....they don't give u a chance to change....they just ruin you.....

You should understand, my fellow domain owners, that, a web-host cannnot, i repat CANNOT, offer you 10 gigs below $10...

They are FRAUD...

Believe me, or experience it...the choice is yours....

Originally posted by EssEss
You should understand, my fellow domain owners, that, a web-host cannnot, i repat CANNOT, offer you 10 gigs below $10...

They are FRAUD...

Believe me, or experience it...the choice is yours....
Now I get on hosts as much as the next guy, but you can't make blanket statements like this. A host can offer you 10 gigs for $10, as they'll enter into the numbers game, which may, or may not work for them. If it doesn't, then unless something is changed (be it current/new packages/prices, etc.), then serious problems are on the horizon. 'They are FRAUD' simply isn't automatically true. Period.

I agree w/chicken :)

we have around 200 accounts on 1 server, 200 accounts that use approx. 100gb/month, but are in total selled for approx 1000gb/month; same thing for the webspace, people don't use it at all.

people just like big numbers, thats the secret.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Doc
1- Too much bulk on a single server. Regardless of the control panel or server abilities loading down a web server with potentially thousands of domain names per IP address is a deadly combination. Apache comfortably holds 200-300 Domains per server (hence restrictions set by systems such as Cobalt RaQ, Plesk, etc.), IIS being very much the same.


No restrictions from Plesk! We have clients with over 1000 domains on a single server - and we support more than the default 255 concurrent users too!

Let me know if anyone has any questions.

Tim O'Rourke

Originally posted by DeLaNo
we have around 200 accounts on 1 server, 200 accounts that use approx. 100gb/month, but are in total selled for approx 1000gb/month; same thing for the webspace, people don't use it at all.

people just like big numbers, thats the secret.

Hi DeLaNo,
You bring up a good point and let's push it a bit

you sold 1000gb/month on 1 server,
usage is 100 gb /month / server

you got one hell of a cushion, That real good.
now lets push it a bit.

can your server handle an increase to 500 gb per month, I without it showing to the client. Most people can't. but the safe thing is ( i have not see your pricing ) if you have a good margin from the purchase price of bandwidth to the selling price of bandwidth, then these clietns can be moved off a server and placed somewere else.

Not only don't you keep the account (and the gross revenue generated ), but you get the added advantage of splitting the laods up and increase the overal rate of return from each server.

Talk to you later

Mike from adehost

My Company adehost.com

Originally posted by ADEhost


Hi DeLaNo,
You bring up a good point and let's push it a bit

you sold 1000gb/month on 1 server,
usage is 100 gb /month / server

you got one hell of a cushion, That real good.
now lets push it a bit.

can your server handle an increase to 500 gb per month, I without it showing to the client. Most people can't. but the safe thing is ( i have not see your pricing ) if you have a good margin from the purchase price of bandwidth to the selling price of bandwidth, then these clietns can be moved off a server and placed somewere else.

Not only don't you keep the account (and the gross revenue generated ), but you get the added advantage of splitting the laods up and increase the overal rate of return from each server.

Talk to you later

Mike from adehost

My Company adehost.com

Hmmm i don't really understand your point; but if you mean it can cause some trouble if all those clients will use their total traffic and the server load will get high, then i can be short; we move then to a new or less-loaded server. :)

but you probably mean something else, can you explain :?

I'm sorry, My mind, it is on other problems.

but the point I'm trying to bring up using your example is, a well priced package to clients can give you growth with the least ammount of headaches.

Note : I have not seen your pricing so I'm not passing judgement of any sort, this is a general discusion of these ratios and applying them.

your ratio were real sweet, but I wonder if they can hold up to solid pricing ( bandwidth cost + margin ) when your client base expand it's growth.

see I look at alot of different plans out there and use ratio's like the one you mentioned, but the ratio does not hold for safe growth if your pricing within the "bandwidth game" ( cost of 1b/w unit is not equal or within the true cost )

What I'm saying does not apply when you have greater than 3000 accounts, then you can price based on other ratio's,
you offer accounts to sell 10 gigs of b/w for the price of 8 gigs .... leaving you with a risk of 2 gigs ...

just an observations that the smaller business should look at because the chances of someone comming in and eating bandwidth can happen. It's a risk I don't like to take.

Mike from adehost

Owner of adehost.com

Originally posted by ADEhost

well, we have more then 1 server and the ratio's are almost all the same, the 1:10 ratio example is extreme (but true). Our pricings aren't made on those ratio's. The ratio used for pricing (this is a complete guess because i don't do the financial stuff) would be something like 1:5 or even less

It's a risk I don't like to take

Mike: gone through your pricing, and I think those are really honest and practical, both in plan-wise and price-wise.

people just like big numbers, thats the secret.

Delano: That's not the secret. The secret is that the clients get a feel of getting 6-bedroom flat at 2-bedroomed's price, where they actually use one-room and will never use the other 5 rooms, but will pay little extra for that feeling.

I don't think, this is fair business...maybe I'm wrong...

EssEss

Originally posted by EssEss


Delano: That's not the secret. The secret is that the clients get a feel of getting 6-bedroom flat at 2-bedroomed's price, where they actually use one-room and will never use the other 5 rooms, but will pay little extra for that feeling.

I don't think, this is fair business...maybe I'm wrong...

EssEss

you're wrong ;) let me explain...

1: they DO get it, it's their own choice and they feel confortable with it. They may use the other rooms (in your example) anytime they like.

2: if they ask for advice we ALWAYS give them a fair advice. If they say they have around 10 visitors a day and a site with a few pages, we don't sell them a big professional account.

3: the're happy, we're happy, thats business, to make the client and the biz happy at the same time. Thats also the secret of creating an good running biz.... :)

Wow i'm revealing a lot of secrets today :stickout

Originally posted by EssEss




Delano: That's not the secret. The secret is that the clients get a feel of getting 6-bedroom flat at 2-bedroomed's price, where they actually use one-room and will never use the other 5 rooms, but will pay little extra for that feeling.

I don't think, this is fair business...maybe I'm wrong...
EssEss

Hmm, I am pretty sure that if I was offered a mansion with 6 bedrooms for a 2 bedroom price I would go for the mansion with the six bedrooms even if I never used the others. We all like some extra space because you never know.

Now if on the other hand I rented a six bedroom house for the price of a 2 bedroom house and when I moved in I discovered that in reality there were only 2 bedrooms and as soon as I wanted to move into the third then the landlord will kick me out of the house for ocupying to many rooms...then I'ld be pissed.

And that is what you are implying. That hosts offer 10 GB but don't want you to use it all and if you do they kick you out.
We all agree that this is true for hosts that offer unlimited bandwidth but your claim that hosts will also drop you like a brick because you use almost the maximum allowed datatransfer holds no ground. Sure there will always be the exception but in general selling 10 GB @ 7.99 is very well possible for some hosts.

Pilgrim : rent only. :)

as soon as I wanted to move into the third then the landlord will kick me out of the house for ocupying to many rooms...then I'ld be pissed.

Yes. And you become a 'website refugee'.

1: they DO get it, it's their own choice and they feel confortable with it. They may use the other rooms (in your example) anytime they like.

You know it well (or gamble on it) that they won't use. If all of them start to use even 60% of what you offer, you're going to be in problem.

2: if they ask for advice we ALWAYS give them a fair advice. If they say they have around 10 visitors a day and a site with a few pages, we don't sell them a big professional account.

Firstly, they very rarely seek advices. They use their own brain and arithmatic. That's why the traps are laid.

Secondly, if they ask you that they have a 10 pages site, which will fetch max 200MB traffic, will you send them to me? :) No. You'll talk about the cushion, the same arithmatic and maybe offer some discounts (because u r sure about the traffic generation), create a special plan for him and get his account.

the're happy, we're happy, thats business,

They become happy in the beginning, becomes unhappy at the end. It happens in two ways : (a) when the expand, get popular and start to generate lots of traffic or (b) when they come to know that same quality host is available at 1/3rd cost for the same usage level.

You remain happy, ofcourse.

Is that business? I don't know. Does anybody know here?

It's not that clients are not ready to pay some extra-bucks. But they don't like to be fooled. In fact, these create lots of confusion in clients' minds, and that hampers this business.

Originally posted by EssEss


You know it well (or gamble on it) that they won't use. If all of them start to use even 60% of what you offer, you're going to be in problem.


No... i was talking about my own biz and we don't gamble that much, probably if every client will use 100% we wouldn't have a big problem, however it will affect the sales ofcourse...



Firstly, they very rarely seek advices. They use their own brain and arithmatic. That's why the traps are laid.

Secondly, if they ask you that they have a 10 pages site, which will fetch max 200MB traffic, will you send them to me? :) No. You'll talk about the cushion, the same arithmatic and maybe offer some discounts (because u r sure about the traffic generation), create a special plan for him and get his account.



They become happy in the beginning, becomes unhappy at the end. It happens in two ways : (a) when the expand, get popular and start to generate lots of traffic or (b) when they come to know that same quality host is available at 1/3rd cost for the same usage level.

You remain happy, ofcourse.

Is that business? I don't know. Does anybody know here?

It's not that clients are not ready to pay some extra-bucks. But they don't like to be fooled. In fact, these create lots of confusion in clients' minds, and that hampers this business. [/B]

i don't think you understand, i do understand what you mean and you're completely right. But thats not how it works, well at least not how it works in our biz. All packages we offer are calculated execly on a worse-case-scenario (client uses 100% traffic, 100% space etc). IF every client would ne a worse-case-scenario then we don't have any profit (or at least not much), but we still can continu offering the same stuff without getting into problems.

But you're right with hosts that offer unlimited bandwidth etc, thats a trap yes :)