Just heard on the news here (5:30pm EST Australia).

My condolences to the US people here... You got another Bush

Greg Moore

Bwahahahahahha..... Nader did enough damage to give Bush the win.

And I believe our Chicken has just scraped in to qualify for the 5% federal funding :D

You go *cluck cluck* boy!

Originally posted by BC
Bwahahahahahha..... Nader did enough damage to give Bush the win. Personally, I don't buy that at all, and I don't expect to hear much from Democratic insiders blaming it on Nader. It's still early, but most of the state-by-state results I've seen show Nader drawing less than was expected; generally 2-3%. Much of that, I think, is because of the Gore-supporter party line that "a vote for Nader is a vote for Bush." I suspect many people who said they would and thought they would vote for Nader changed their minds while standing in the booth.

Even at that, I really believe that a significant percentage of the people who voted for Nader were so disaffected with the two major party candidates that if there'd been no Nader candidacy they wouldn't have voted at all. It's not the case that if in a particular state 5% voted for Nader you could just give that 5% to Gore if Nader hadn't been there. More likely you'd give Gore 2%, Bush two tenths of a percent and the rest would have just skipped the presidential line entirely or just stayed home. Or written in Chicken.

Gore lost partly because of personality, or lack thereof. Partly because of disappointing performance in the last two debates. Partly because of questionable late-campaign decisions about allocation of resources and priorities. Partly because of anti-Clinton backlash. Ralph Nader injected a little excitement and interest into the race, but in terms of shifting electoral votes I don't think he made any difference at all.

--
JayC
reformed political operative


[Edited by JayC on 11-08-2000 at 02:57 AM]

libertarian in the presidential election. i live in cali and knew the state would go to gore.

and i don't need any condolenses. i like the idea of keeping a part of my social security money to privately invest. i like the end of the executive branch circumventing the legislature by brining lawsuits against private companies in order to extort them into doing things they couldn't legislate.

i'm not saying bush is the choice for me. but i'd rather have him then gore/lieberman/tipper any day. :)

Originally posted by JayC
Ralph Nader injected a little excitement and interest into the race, but in terms of shifting electoral votes I don't think he made any difference at all.Hmm... just looked at the current tally for the key swing state of Florida. OK, if Nader made a difference anywhere, maybe there. He only carried 95,000 votes, but the current difference between Gore and Bush is about 10,000.

But it's like blaming the loss of a football game on the outcome of one particular play. Coming out of the Democratic convention, Gore was in control. Missteps and poor debate performance are where the game was thrown; why it was close enough that it came down at 3 am eastern to which column Florida would end up in.

Actually, it is now down to 1200 votes and Florida is now too close to call. Bush has not won anything yet.

Looks like a recount and may be a few days to find out.

It is down to only 791 votes difference (Bush)

I went for Bush my gf went for Gore, Ive been heckling her non stop about how bush has won, no its a recount, if it comes out that Gore wins where do you all suggest I hide??

Originally posted by cbaker17
I went for Bush my gf went for Gore, Ive been heckling her non stop about how bush has won, no its a recount, if it comes out that Gore wins where do you all suggest I hide??

hehe, Australia is nice this time of year and it's close to as far as geographically possible from the USA. :)

Greg Moore

I was so sad yesterday knowing that Gore's lost, but later on things had changed that gave me the inspiration to sleep . The CNN this morning says that there has been a confusion in a voting card that made people voted for Green party but they actually voted for Gore (this number was about 3000 people, mostly seniors). Add up those number, FL surely in Gore's hand.

There will be another issue, popular nation vote might be considered in this case, which Gore has lead over Bush about one hundred thoundsand. Eventhough eletoral vote is more likely to be accepted.

Whatever happens, there will be a small chance for Gore, but I still believe on him. Bush far more worse than Gore. I don't understand why people believe in "fresh start" that he's claimed. Don't you all satisfy for the good economy in the last 8 years? That's called: "The grass is always greener in neighbor" but then when you have that grass, you relized they are ever worse. I hope people who vote for Bush is not because they've seen so many advertising, which Republican has much more money than Democrat in that matter, but because of their truly thought.

Good luck Gore, in case you won't get elected, I still admire you always. Don't worry, that Bush will be just like his father.

Don't you all satisfy for the good economy in the last 8 years?

*lol* they ought to be! The way the US dollar has been steam-rolling the rest of the world this past year (Aussie, and Euro etc). New Zealand's dollar went below (US)40c a while ago is still heading south. I'm just rather thankful most of my work is paid in US dollars :)


That's called: "The grass is always greener in neighbor"

Got a bit of a chuckle out of that. :) Not to be a smart-ass though Nam. I just love asian/english translations when they don't quite mesh. Kind of like "Happy, smiley, good time boy"

Greg Moore

Good for you, jonelin. I too voted libertarian, as I have for many years. Nothing much chnages if you vote for a Republicrat.

Any time an independent candidate draws wnough coverage to be even mentioned, one or both parties claim that a vote for that candidate is a vote for their primary opponent. It's just another way to discourage people from expanding their thinking and choosing an alternative to the two largest political parties.

The idea of that is terrifying to the Republicrats. They would lose their hold on the American political system and we would start seeing some real change on the national level. However, it will take enough Americans to vote their conscience and think differently instead of choosing the lesser of two evils. Unfortunately, that's not an easy thing to achieve. When you consider how much many of our founding fathers suffered to win us our liberties, it seems almost criminal for us to throw them away and contribute to the erosion of our civil liberties by limiting our choices.

Greg, don't make stupid comment about my English, everybody here knows me damn well (you did understand, didn't you?). If it's because of your different point of view on political issue, then just say it rather then mocking at no American's spelling/grammar mistake. Yet if I wasn't sure, I should not have said it, but I knew nobody cared about my damn English here. Oh, but I was wrong about some racists here, haha :D.

[Edited by Nam on 11-08-2000 at 10:55 AM]

I sat up all night until 8am in the morning watching the elections in the USA. I had my fingers crossed for Bush as theres something about him i like. Well done Bush.

Originally posted by Nam
Greg, don't make stupid comment about my English, everybody here knows me damn well (you did understand, didn't you?).

Yup, understood perfectly. Also understood you to have a sense of humor too.. Notice the :) faces all over my post?

As for being racist I'll have to remember to mention it to my 1/2 Thai, 1/4 white, 1/4 cherokee fiance, and my part Thai, English, Irish, Scottish, Cherokee, German daughter in the morning. :)

Greg Moore

Originally posted by Nam
The CNN this morning says that there has been a confusion in a voting card that made people voted for Green party but they actually voted for Gore (this number was about 3000 people, mostly seniors). Add up those number, FL surely in Gore's hand.

Nam, you're right here, except that they may have mistakingly voted for Buchanon on the Reform ticket, not the Green ticket. The Green party had Nader as their candidate.

TALLAHASSEE, FL.-- As of 6:00 a.m., Wednesday, November 8, 2000, the Florida election returns in the 2000 U.S. Presidential election were 2,909,135 for Republican candidate George W. Bush and 2,907,351 for Democratic candidate Albert Gore. These returns reflect all precinct ballots cast and all absentee ballots cast in all 67 Florida counties, with the sole exception of outstanding overseas absentee ballots.

The difference in votes cast is 1,784 in favor of Governor George W. Bush, which is less than one half of one percent of all votes cast. Under these circumstances, Florida law requires an automatic recount of all votes cast. The recount will be conducted in each county by the statutorily prescribed county canvassing board. It is expected that the recount will be completed by the close of business on Thursday, November 9, 2000.

Under Florida law, Secretary of State Katherine Harris is the constitutionally independent officer elected by the people of Florida as the chief election officer of the state. As such, it is her responsibility to obtain and maintain uniformity in the application, operation, and interpretation of the election laws. Florida law has rules and procedures to ensure the integrity and accuracy of the recount process. The Secretary of State has sworn to uphold the laws of the state to their fullest extent and will exercise her sworn duties with the utmost vigilance.

Does it matter who wins? Its still money that rules the world. All hail $$$ :D

A Snickers (candy bar) commercial showing a guy in a voting booth with cartoon representatives to the Democrats and Republicans on his shoulders is the funniest political
commentary I've seen in a long time. If you haven't seen it yet (and are in the U.S.) watch for it. It's hilarious.

The jackass (Democrat) makes remarks like "I invented the Internet" while the elephant (GOP) makes remarks about looking like his father and being like his father. When he
makes the remark that he and his father wear the same pants, the jackass says "I invented pants."

Hilarious!

i love that commercial! hee!

i'm a liberal libertarian. i agree about 95% on economic issues with the libertarians, and only decent slightly on social issues. where i really part grounds with libertarians is with their stand on the military. they would have us be like we were prior to WWII. while i don't like the use our military has been put to over the last eight years, i don't believe we have no place helping other countries when needed AND ASKED!

as for giving the clinton administration credit for the economy, i say phooey! it was two men appointed by the regan/bush administration who fixed up the banking fiasco, and regan who appointed greenspan. not to mention technology making the leaps and bounds it has. no one in government can take responsiblity for the ingenuity and hard work of people in the private sector.

i think where libertarians should focus most of their energy in upcoming years is on congress and senate seats. the presidency isn't as important. we need more diversity in the legislative branch. :)

Originally posted by Duster
A Snickers (candy bar) commercial showing a guy in a voting booth with cartoon representatives to the Democrats and Republicans on his shoulders is the funniest political
commentary I've seen in a long time. If you haven't seen it yet (and are in the U.S.) watch for it. It's hilarious.Or no matter where you live, check it out online at http://www.adcritic.com -- one of my favorite web resources, by the way.

Bush has it, both popular and elctoral my bet. But the econmy of the US is starting to slow down, called me parnoyed but CLinton got credit for the great job Reagan did in setting it up. so clinton didnt do that so bah on him. Bush is going to get bad for the econmy where he had jack to do with it. So i hope that there is a back up plan up cliton puts is cigars.

Well, I think you're right about Bush having the electoral, but that still has to be determined.

One thing is pretty sure, though, in that Gore took the popular vote..barring some extraordinary outcome that will not happen.

:D lol :D. I've read somewhere that if you go out for a date, do not discuss about religion or politic. It's just not that, politic and religion are two endless issues to talk about. And it's normal while half of people here go for Bush and the other half go for Gore, as it's just the same int the real life.

My point is, it's not fair for either one of them to win because the number tells us that this country has divided into two beliefs. But then we can't have 2 presidents and there will always be a loser and a winner in the race, that means neither of them is good enough to be a president. Correct me if I wrong, for other votes, I-751 for instance, is it has to be over 60% to get approved? that's what I called: fairness.

People vote for this and that mostly just because their own benefit, not because the good for the whole country. For example, you would vote for Mr. X if you believe that he will give you some tax cut more than Mr. Y despite the fact that you also believe Mr. Y will make the coutry better. Am I making any sense here? I don't know about you but I'm in that category.

Just wondering, is there any possibility that popular voting overrall win? Has it happened in the past? In cast the thing is very complicated (very, VERY close to call), who will decide whom to be president? the vote rule or the congress?

The president (any president) and his administration have very little to do with the overall economy of the nation. An economy has a life cycle all its own. It just so happened that we had the longest peace time expansionary period during Reagans's two terms. It was unfortunate timing for Vice President George Bush as that cycle was ending during his run for the presidency.

The fact that the economy took an upturn (once again) after Clinton was in office was nothing more than fortuitous timing for him. It had nothing to do with his huge tax hike and other policies.

The simple fact is presidents take credit for the economy when it is on the upswing, and candidates blame the incumbents when it is on the downside of a cycle. The truth is that they are not responsible in either case. Alan Greenspan, the chairman of the Federal Reserve Board, has a much greater impact on the economy than the president of the country.

A lot has been said about education in recent campaigns. I would like to see mandatory teaching of economics beginning at an early age. It would make it harder for politicians to tell lies as economics cuts through to the truth of things, such as why the current policies on drugs were doomed to failure, as are many other policies.

The Comments about racists will stop here or there will be some feather pluckin

Originally posted by Nam
Just wondering, is there any possibility that popular voting overrall win? Has it happened in the past? In cast the thing is very complicated (very, VERY close to call), who will decide whom to be president? the vote rule or the congress? In your first question, if you're asking if there's a possibility that because Gore won the popular vote he could be named president even if Bush wins the electoral vote, no. A qualified "no." There's no question that the electoral vote is what counts.

But the qualification is that there's no federal legal requirement that the electors (members of the electoral college) have to vote the way their state's popular vote went. They normally do, since they are selected by the parties so they have that loyalty. There have been tiems when they didn't, most recently when a Michael Dukakis elector switched the ticket, voting for Lloyd Bentsen, Dukakis' vice-presidential running mate for president and Dukakis for VP. It didn't really matter, since Dukakis was really out of the running anyway. In 1972 and again in 1976 electors had made votes that didn't reflect the popular vote. But there's never been such a "defection" that has affected the outcome of an election.

For your second question, it has happened in the past that the winner of the popular vote didn't win the electoral vote and so did not become president. The last time was in 1888; it happened a couple of times before that.

Another possible complication: in 1824 Andrew Jackson had more popular votes and more electoral votes than anyone else, but didn't have over 50% of the electoral votes, so wasn't declared the winner.

If that happens, the House of Representatives votes for president. Say Ralph Nader wins Florida instead of Bush or Gore... nobody would have the required 270 electoral votes, so there's no winner. The House decides. In the 1824 example, the House elected John Quincy Adams instead of Jackson.

Originally posted by Annette
...ability to handle something that should be as mundane as elections.

Really with what is a stake, I'm actually a bit surprised that there isn't more corruption and irregularities with the whole process.

Some interesting figures here....

an independent poll of Europeans over who they would prefer as US president...

GORE: 59.8%
BUSH: 40.2%

Quite a large preference for Gore, before election day Bush had about 32%. Hey, its only a poll, but I wonder why Europeans are so much in favour of Gore?

Originally posted by stu
but I wonder why Europeans are so much in favour of Gore?

My guess is because they like Cliton foreign's policy. Therefore, they believe Gore would do as good job as Clinton. I could be wrong, though.

I know this msg may offended some of you who support Bush, but hey, we're discuss about politic here, and this is freedom country. So just be easy on me. I know nobody is perfect, as I can find some ridiculous quotes from Gore, but I guess Bush is far more better on this.

"Many people who are now successful can remember how hard it was to save, but how important it was to start." George W. Bush
--George W. Bush is definitely talking about someone other than himself. Despite a Yale education, George needed his family's ties and a subsidy from taxpayers to become successful. The Philadelphia Inquirer (6/2/00) summed it up: "....the taxpayer-financed stadium [for the Texas Rangers] accounted for nearly two-thirds of the $162 million increase in the team's value by the time Bush and his partners sold it in 1998 .... that sale made Bush wealthy."

"I don't run polls to tell me what to think." George W. Bush

--George W. Bush wants us to believe that his positions are based on principle and not affected by polls. Yeah, right. It's interesting how the man who in early March questioned the wisdom of child-safety trigger locks for guns, changed course completely in May, announcing a plan to distribute trigger locks to families across the state. Could the polls (showing broad support for trigger locks) have had just a little to do with this?

"I did my duty. I was honorably discharged. I put in my time." George W. Bush

--George W. Bush gets defensive explaining his service in the Texas National Guard during the Vietnam War. In 1972 and '73, Bush was temporarily excused from his duties for several months to work on a political campaign.

"This is Preservation Month. I appreciate preservation. It's what you do when you run for president. You gotta preserve." George W. Bush

--Actually, it was "Perseverance Month" at Fairgrounds Elementary School in Nashua, N.H., but George W. Bush got rather confused. He never quite explained why or what a president has got to "preserve."

"At one of these governors' conferences, George [W. Bush] turns to me and says: 'What are they talking about?' I said: 'I don't know.' He said: 'You don't know anything, do you?' And I said: 'Not one thing.' [Bush] said: 'Neither do I.' And we kind of high-fived." Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico

--Republican Gov. Gary Johnson of New Mexico shares a verbal exchange that took place between him and George W. Bush.

"Is he [George W. Bush] comfortable with foreign policy? I would say not." Bent Scrowscroft

--Brent Scowcroft, who was National Security Advisor to Bush's father, offers a candid assessment of the Texas Governor's knowledge and understanding of critical world issues.

When Bush was asked to name the five leaders of countries that have nuclear weapons, he was clueless. No wonder why so many people consider Bush an intellectual lightweight.

Read the facts people!!!! It's going to be a scary four years if he's elected.
Remember George Bush Sr., "Read my Lips - No New Taxes". Maybe, his son should say "Know New Taxes".
____________________

If anybody wonder why I support Gore? here it is:

These are what Republican Presidents have done for Vietnamese people.

1. Withdraw US army from VN in 1973.
Nixon promised continue support South VN but...
Ford: ... No more war in VN (sic)
2. 1981, Reagan cut welfare benefit for Viet refugees from 5 years to 3 years...18 mon...6 mon...
and CETA program (get pay while in job training).
3. 1989, 1990, 1991... no more support for Viet refugees. Hong K, Thai, Malaysia... closed camps.

Compare with what Democrat President have done to VN:

1979, Carter supported VN "boat people". Malaysia, Thailand, Phi, Indo... had to accept Viet refugees.
Do you know how many our people were saved with this decision?
5 years welfare/foodstamp for Viet until they can support themselves. And other programs USCC service, CETA, job training..
That is reason what we have "Little Saigon" in CA.
_______________________

Sorry for endless post, if it's bother you, then don't reply.

I have to add some thing about what's going on in FL. How do they do the counting? computer? person? How the heck that Gore get more and more votes at recounting (www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/pres.htm)? Counting is doing math, there is ONE solution only.

Correct me if I'm wrong: Florida Governor Jeb Bush is George W. Bush's younger brother.

Originally posted by Nam
I have to add some thing about what's going on in FL. How do they do the counting? computer? person? How the heck that Gore get more and more votes at recounting (www.usatoday.com/news/vote2000/pres.htm)? Counting is doing math, there is ONE solution only.It does seem ridiculous that the count can vary so much (as of this writing, Bush's lead is down to 341 votes).

They are paper ballots with holes punched in them, and are counted first by machine. The recount is being done exactly the same way, but the Democrats are apparently asking that at least some counties be recounted again manually.

Apparently sometimes ballots are stuck together, and so two may be counted as one. And sometimes the flap of paper that was punched out isn't out completely, and might flip into the hole and prevent it from being recognized, while a person doing a manual count could recognize it. These are the explanations given by Florida election officials today.

And yes, Nam, Governor Jeb Bush is George W.'s brother.

In fact the Canvassing Board just announced that a manual recount will be done. Since that'll presumably take even longer than the machine recount did, it looks like it'll be at least a couple of days before there's a final count.

[Edited by JayC on 11-09-2000 at 06:05 PM]

Funny how some of us non-Americans are keeping a rabidly close eye on this..... ;)

I'm a Canadian, the only reason i follow this is because i trade US stocks and options, and the "Indecision 2000" wreaked havoc on the markets today and have impact on the markets.

greg:

i would suggest buying stocks now and selling them sometime after the 17th... :)

i'm from canada, and i just don't get all the fuss over such close votes... we have it all the time in british columbia, and frankly no one cares... :) our last premier didn't win the popular vote, but got enough people in to form the government...

i guess we're just too apathetic

Actually, BC, I should have given that post's credit to my friend, his nick is Poetlove, and he's 101% Vietnamese. I haven't been here long enough to know many that details, and my English is not that good also.

This morning, I saw the SeattleTimes newspaper, the frontpage printed the picture of 2 group of people, each carry the sign of Gore and Bush cursing at each other. It's so sad to see that as we're all American, and both party do their best for America. Either of them don't relly make a big impact on America (but yes for us :( ). So I don't see any reason why American people should curse (there will be more if it's still going on) at each other.

I think this problem is going to be crisis that might leads this country to politic civil war. The U.S economy is like a parabola, now it's time to go down because of this. I just hope one of them willing to step out (which is never happen) for America's sake.

Nam,

Ouch! I seriously hope it doesn't get to that because we all know what the ramifications for the economy worldwide would be.....

Remember this phrase?

"If Wall Street sneezes, the rest of the world catches a cold."

When they get all done with the various recounts, they're going to determine that Hubert Humphrey was the winner...

I guess I will have to add my opinion to this. If Gore would have won his own HOME state, Florida wouldnt even matter. As for the recent actions in Florida I have a friend who is on the Elections Board and the Re-vote in Palm Beach is very unlikely unless evidence is brought forth showing fraud. Otherwise the courts would be very reluctant to order a re-vote for a poorly designed ballot.

The real problem at hand is no matter which one wins with the split in congress will they even recognize whomever is declared the winner? If neither side will recognize Gore or Bush then this country is without a leader!!


Ps. Regardless who you voted for. Will either one of them be able to impliment any of their policies with Congress being split down the middle?

X-treme

Regardless of which candidate receives benefit or loss, the plain facts are that the votes were improperly counted.

The key issue, indeed, is not at all the rights of the candidates.

The central point is that American citizens have been denied their right to vote.

Based on this, I expect we will shortly rescind the rights of women to vote. And, of course, all those pesky minorities should be excluded as well.

Come to think of it, those who have less than a Harvard or Yale education? Well, they certainly don't have the intellectual or educational wherewithal to be voting; and, hence, should be disallowed from doing so.

And you know, old people sometimes don't think as clearly as they did when they were younger... maybe we should spare them the trouble of voting, too -- or, at the least, inspect their ballots, and if we think perhaps they were having a bad day, just correct their ballots for them so they register as we think they perhaps meant them to do.

Even better, why don't we spare everyone the trouble of voting -- and let the election officials, who are generally political hacks to begin with, make all the decisions.





[Edited by etLux on 11-11-2000 at 02:35 AM]

And the news reporting that 19 out of 24 first graders (was it first graders?), were able to find and mark 'GORE' on the ballot just cracks me up, heh.

Basically what it is going to come down to, is that a lawsuit will be filed if either candidate is announced the winner. And either way, it stinks. They announce the winner before all the votes are counted and we get New Mexico.

Ahhh well. If only it hadn't been so close as per usual. Dateline had a funny "Give Me A Break" commentary that was right on. Something about Visa being able to process 3,000 transactions a minute and Nasdaq being able to track 3,000,000 trades a day (something like that). The biggest problem with this is that it is still done too similar to how it was done in the 1800's. We need to get with the times.

I think we should computerize the whole process so that someone can break in and mess things up that way. At least a lot less paper involved.

*hugs a tree*

Keep your drumsticks off my Chinese Red Maple!

etLux, if I haven't mentioned it before, I really enjoy your sarcastic posts. Pretty much what I always post, but I have to cut back due to the mod. thing. You do it for me, which I appreciate. :)

Thank you, Chicken. You truly are a fowl of discernment, and the high caliber of both your erudition and your intellect show through in such thoughtful comments.

Excuse the sucking sounds in the background.