OC3=155Mbps, right?
Is 1000$/month a reasonable price?

$1000 a month, is definetly not the right price! If you could get that kind of pricing, I would go for it in a second!!! An OC-3 at Level 3 costs around $37,000 a month with a $8,000 set up fee. You can go to http://www.ispworld.com/isp/bb/n_america.htm to check out backbone pricing.

~ $45,000.00 / MO

Anything that some of the time will involve actually trenching fiber. Installation fees could be high, but you could get a price like that with loop from a Tier One provider, I would be most impressed. What are you doing anyway that needs so much pipe?

Also me working for Sprint I can assure you that the prices on this page http://www.ispworld.com/isp/bb/n_america.htm are not accurate at all.

Originally posted by brently27
Anything that some of the time will involve actually trenching fiber. Installation fees could be high, but you could get a price like that with loop from a Tier One provider, I would be most impressed. What are you doing anyway that needs so much pipe?

Also me working for Sprint I can assure you that the prices on this page http://www.ispworld.com/isp/bb/n_america.htm are not accurate at all.

really? You work for Sprint??

Yeah, the prices on that page seem very high from what I've received in quotes lately.

Originally posted by astra4
OC3=155Mbps, right?
Is 1000$/month a reasonable price?

I assume you're referring to Cogent's 100Mbit dedicated connection (which is roughly 2/3's of an OC-3's connectivity). I've never used them, but Rackshack does and they have an incredibly low ping from me, so I'd say go for it.

Originally posted by bombino


I assume you're referring to Cogent's 100Mbit dedicated connection (which is roughly 2/3's of an OC-3's connectivity). I've never used them, but Rackshack does and they have an incredibly low ping from me, so I'd say go for it.

It's $3000 a month for transit.

It works well for me but as some will tell you, they are not a tier-1 provider. I no longer hype them as I've noticed they have dropped two routes they used to take between two of my boxes which has resulted in about a 40ms increase in ping time. (matters when you are gaming)

-davidu

I think someone at band-x.com is selling a OC3 for 23K. I think you have to colo with them

"If you have to ask, it's too expensive."

Actually it's a host where I have an account, they now have an 1.5Mbps line which is saturated and now they announced to move to a new Datacenter where they will have 155Mbps and I was told it's gona cost 1k USD / month. I guess either they're sharing the line with others (I was told not, though)... Anyway, I was just curious...

Brently, you say the way to get lowest cost connections is to make an investment in construction and install fibre from my place to where the internet is? Cool Idea :)

Yes I do work for Sprint in the Data Center.

Originally posted by brently27
Yes I do work for Sprint in the Data Center.


Brent care to post the current price of a OC3 line at sprint?

Originally posted by ClusterMania
Brent care to post the current price of a OC3 line at sprint?

Getting pricing for circuits that large generally requires NDA's. I'd contact a Sprint sales rep for more information.

How much would a T3 cost? (Approx.)

btw, what is a NDA?

Non-disclosure Agreement. Meaning, the pricing they provide you with is confidential, and can't be given to anyone else without permission.

I'm not sure that any provider sells T3 circuits anymore... I think most people sell DS3's. DS3's typically cost less than $15,000 per month.

Originally posted by 311
How much would a T3 cost? (Approx.)

btw, what is a NDA?

NDA:

Non-Disclosure Agreement

In my experience I've found that if you need to sign one you probably are about to be shown either a) hype b) vaporware c) something so outrageous no one would buy it or d) something totally boring that the world already could have guessed or knows about.

Totally useless outside of a lawyers realm.

-davidu

I always thought T3's and DS-3's were the same... What's the difference?

t3 = 45mbit
oc3 = 155mbit

Originally posted by 311
I always thought T3's and DS-3's were the same... What's the difference?

T3 = copper line
DS3 = fiber line

Obviously, fiber is the preferred method of delivery for reliability.

Originally posted by 311
How much would a T3 cost? (Approx.)

btw, what is a NDA? '

If you sign a contract promising not to tell anyone what an NDA is, then I can tell you what an NDA is. :D

Take care,

Brian

In order to quote an OC 3 or higher you got to fill out some paper work. No serious provider would quote something that big on the internet of via email. Sorry but my rule of thumb is if you have to ask, then you either can't aford it or you aren't serious about getting one. I can tell you they can be very expensive.

Brently might I ask how are you supposed to know if you can or cannot afford it, or even know which provider has the lowest prices if you do not ask?

Originally posted by Tetraboy
Brently might I ask how are you supposed to know if you can or cannot afford it, or even know which provider has the lowest prices if you do not ask?

I would have to agree with brently27 -- you know if you're in the market for one.

There is not simply a monthly cost with getting a high-speed link.

You frequently need expensive hardware on each end to carry the signal as well as routers to move the bits.

On top of that you often need to bring in the line to your office, your phone company won't simply string it along the telephone poll. ;-)

How do you know? Because you've asked? Or did you telepathically probe someone who knows brain?

Originally posted by DavidU


I would have to agree with brently27 -- you know if you're in the market for one.

There is not simply a monthly cost with getting a high-speed link.

You frequently need expensive hardware on each end to carry the signal as well as routers to move the bits.

On top of that you often need to bring in the line to your office, your phone company won't simply string it along the telephone poll. ;-)

You could always colocate at a carrier neutral facility and get a OC3 that way. No need to have the carrier dig up your front lawn and crunch your tulips. I know you have to buy equipment and most serious people have no problems with that. Most importantly is finding out who offers the most affordable OC3 or bandwidth other than Cogent, Yipes, Level 3, Telseon and maybe a few others I don't know about.

Cogent doesn't sell full oc3 but will sell in 100mbit increments.

I even signed a non disclosure form for a quote for a 10mb/s connection with a company and it came out to 6K a month. LoL I was like WOAH! Talk to ya latter!!! Too bad you can't price compare bandwidth like you can with networking equipment at pricewatch.com or nextag.com =(

Originally posted by Tetraboy
How do you know? Because you've asked? Or did you telepathically probe someone who knows brain?

Like I said, if you are looking to buy one, you know.

Otherwise you don't.

Are you looking to buy one? If so, email me and I'll send you some contacts.

Please don't email me if you aren't looking to spend at least $100,000 upfront or if you don't have any CIDR address space thats already globally routable. Then again, you knew that.

-davidu

If you're looking to buy one how do you magically know the price without asking someone who does? Please inform me.

Originally posted by Tetraboy
If you're looking to buy one how do you magically know the price without asking someone who does? Please inform me.

You call your ISP. Most people don't just "up and buy one" they usually are upgrading or replicating a service they already have.

-davidu

What if you don't have an isp, and are just starting a new company up and need pricing? I mean if most upgrade then I guess most also at one time had to start by buying a connection am I correct? Somehow they had to get pricing then I doubt they just called up worldcom and said install me an OC3 without knowing the price....

Originally posted by Tetraboy
What if you don't have an isp, and are just starting a new company up and need pricing? I mean if most upgrade then I guess most also at one time had to start by buying a connection am I correct? Somehow they had to get pricing then I doubt they just called up worldcom and said install me an OC3 without knowing the price....

Wow, you're persistent.

If you were a new company you better hire a compentent network engineer quickly. Don't worry, any competent engineer would already have established contacts at various ISPs and would be able to get you setup in about four-eight weeks.

-davidu

True, but still you're admitting you must ask you're network engineer how much it costs? So you do have to ask to find out....

NDA - Non Disclosure Agreement...

Something you sign so that they make sure you shut up, but if you talk about it, they'll slap you with a big lawsuit :D

Originally posted by Tetraboy
True, but still you're admitting you must ask you're network engineer how much it costs? So you do have to ask to find out....

What's your point man? You aren't buying an OC-3 are you?

Here's some pricing so you go away:
(This is all ATM, non-IP transit)


OC-3c
50Mbps = $6000 per month plus one-time installation of $3000
100Mbps = $6500 per month plus one-time installation of $3000
148Mbps = $7000 per month plus one-time installation of $3000


At least double the price for IP transit.

-davidu

Something I find funny. CLusterMania said something of the sort " I had to sign a NDA for a 10MBit pipe that ended up being 6k!! " What good did that NDA do? lol

Originally posted by Tetraboy
Something I find funny. CLusterMania said something of the sort " I had to sign a NDA for a 10MBit pipe that ended up being 6k!! " What good did that NDA do? lol

Like I said before, NDA's are pretty much worthless.

-davidu

Originally posted by DavidU


Like I said before, NDA's are pretty much worthless.

-davidu

I never named the company.

Am I or Am I not. Does it matter. The point of this whole elitist " You know if you're in the in crowd, if you're not then you don't" disgusts me. The attitude I get is that these companies dont want to sell you their product unless you're "in". Why should you have to already have Big net access to order it... If you don't have it, it seems as you never will if thats true. But I think if you have to ask you can't afford it is stupid. Point in case, I asked at walmart what the price was as I couldn't find it and yes I did buy it...... Was I gonna buy it if it was too expensive? No. But if I hadn't have found out the price would I have bought it? Nope. Get my point here?

Originally posted by Tetraboy
Am I or Am I not. Does it matter. The point of this whole elitist " You know if you're in the in crowd, if you're not then you don't" disgusts me. The attitude I get is that these companies dont want to sell you their product unless you're "in". Why should you have to already have Big net access to order it... If you don't have it, it seems as you never will if thats true. But I think if you have to ask you can't afford it is stupid. Point in case, I asked at walmart what the price was as I couldn't find it and yes I did buy it...... Was I gonna buy it if it was too expensive? No. But if I hadn't have found out the price would I have bought it? Nope. Get my point here?

Uhh no. This is the way things work in the world.

You make a _REALLY_ dumb analogy because you can't just walk into a store and buy an OC3. On top of that, lets say I can get an OC3c from Pacbell for half the price of one from WorldCom. I might still get it from WorldCom because I KNOW their peering is far better or their third-tier NOC admins are top notch, etc, etc.

This is not like buying some piece of crap from walmart, son.

-davidu

Originally posted by DavidU


What's your point man? You aren't buying an OC-3 are you?

Here's some pricing so you go away:
(This is all ATM, non-IP transit)


OC-3c
50Mbps = $6000 per month plus one-time installation of $3000
100Mbps = $6500 per month plus one-time installation of $3000
148Mbps = $7000 per month plus one-time installation of $3000


At least double the price for IP transit.

-davidu

How much is transit? =)

Originally posted by ClusterMania


How much is transit? =)

contact sales@pacbell.com, sales@sprint.com, sales@uu.net, sales@yipes.com, sales@xo.com ... you get the idea.

-davidu

Maybe its between equal providers? ATT/Sprint for example. It doesnt matter... Besides you most likely will need atleast 2 lines so they're is some price shopping to do.

To: ClusterMania
From what I see a DS-3 is about $10-15k
And OC-3 around $45k

( per month, no loop )

Goign to bed now.

Originally posted by brently27
In order to quote an OC 3 or higher you got to fill out some paper work. No serious provider would quote something that big on the internet of via email. Sorry but my rule of thumb is if you have to ask, then you either can't aford it or you aren't serious about getting one. I can tell you they can be very expensive.

Actually, Genuity mentions pricing on their Web site right now, for DS-3, OC-3, and OC-12. It's per Mbps, but just multiply by 45, 155, and 622 respectively.

http://www.genuity.com/dmail/wholesale/promo.htm

Naturally, you can do best by building relationships with multiple providers, negotiating long-term discounts, etc.

Kevin

When I worked for a UK research establishment we were paying about £40,000 per year for an OC3 (about $5000 per month).
That was cost price through their own network ja.net
So there must be a lot of profit in it for the commercial carriers.

The down side was we had to pay £250,000 to have several miles of road dug up to lay the cables..........

Gordon

Look no offense, but there is not enough info on the table for anybody to even think about quoting you. First off what do you have currently? Unless I hear multi DS3's you don't need it. What are you using it for? If you are at home you don't need it. It is nothing about who's in the "in crowd" it is just good business. Also the first thing most people do after the NDA is signed is get a credit application. The serious players don't mind this because they know the drill. So if somebody keeps on wanting pricing on a internet site and will not contact an ISP to go through the process, then I got to ask myself, "why waste my time?" Like I said before if you got to ask how much you can't afford it. I will say they can range anywhere from They can cost up to 5 times the price of a full DS3 depending on how far the fiber has to be trenched.

Let me get this right. To get an OC3 from you, someone would need to signup for an T1, Then upgrade to DS-3 and get another DS-3 before you would even consider letting them have the honor of buying an OC3? Thats a lot of hassle to BUY something.

Originally posted by Tetraboy
Let me get this right. To get an OC3 from you, someone would need to signup for an T1, Then upgrade to DS-3 and get another DS-3 before you would even consider letting them have the honor of buying an OC3? Thats a lot of hassle to BUY something.

I think what he means is that a company that needs OC-3c level connectivity will typically already have existing DS-3 circuits in use. It's rare that you just magically need between 45Mbps and 155Mbps of bandwidth to start with.

Unless you can eliminate the local loop, it's going to be more cost-effective to start with smaller circuits in most cases.

Kevin

Most datacenters that start need atleast 2 DS3s to begin with. I think VDI had an OC3 and DS3 to start with. Burst had to go out and buy 2 DS3s. ( Wow they did a good job to win the prize of getting to pay sprint for a DS3. ) So whats so unusual. If you start a webhosting company on T1s you will most likely be critisized. ( Remember Secured-Net )

Originally posted by jkehe
I'm not sure that any provider sells T3 circuits anymore... I think most people sell DS3's.

Err... what carrier do they run DS3 over if not a T3?

OK Teraboy, are you starting a webhosting business? Great, who are your capital investors? How many clients do you have? Can you afford about 25K-35K in hardwarejust to run the circuit? Do you have your own building for fiber to the door? If not will your landlord let us tear up his sidewalk. Is this a multi tennant building? (This always helps you out) I am not putting you down, but to start off with an OC3 would be like having a $300,000 Ferarri for a first car. Yes it has been done, but you'll always get in trouble. Most hosts I know of started with one T1, then move to a multi Meg, then frac DS3, full DS3, multi DS3 (which most are at the level right there) and then the OC level. Nobody ever starts out with an OC level device from the get go. Oc level circuits are mostly used (in my experience) for internet connection for a large frame for Fortune 500 companies and higher. As a matter of fact I can not think of one host that has a dedicated OC anything to their NOC. They say "we got OC 12" "we are on a gigabit network". Well that is misleading if you don't know this industry. First off they might have a mux of the fiber for something that big, but I bet it is dark fiber. Gigabit network? Sure internally. I mean of backbones of some providers are not even that big.

In closing I think you are just jumping the gun a little to fast and want to play with the big boys before you pay your dues. Now if you are Bill Gate's kid and want one for a home. I'll install it myself, but you're not, so work your way up like everybody else.

Originally posted by Tetraboy
Most datacenters that start need atleast 2 DS3s to begin with. I think VDI had an OC3 and DS3 to start with. Burst had to go out and buy 2 DS3s. ( Wow they did a good job to win the prize of getting to pay sprint for a DS3. ) So whats so unusual. If you start a webhosting company on T1s you will most likely be critisized. ( Remember Secured-Net )

In Brently's defense, he works in a datacenter, and is probably not a sales engineer. You can find some very pleasant people working in sales at Sprint (although they are hampered by bureaucracy in many ways).

T-1's are really a thing of the past except in remote areas.

To repeat the answer to another question posed here, DS-3 means fiber, T-3 means copper.

Kevin

Originally posted by brently27
OK Teraboy, are you starting a webhosting business? Great, who are your capital investors? How many clients do you have? Can you afford about 25K-35K in hardwarejust to run the circuit? Do you have your own building for fiber to the door? If not will your landlord let us tear up his sidewalk. Is this a multi tennant building? (This always helps you out) I am not putting you down, but to start off with an OC3 would be like having a $300,000 Ferarri for a first car. Yes it has been done, but you'll always get in trouble. Most hosts I know of started with one T1, then move to a multi Meg, then frac DS3, full DS3, multi DS3 (which most are at the level right there) and then the OC level. Nobody ever starts out with an OC level device from the get go. Oc level circuits are mostly used (in my experience) for internet connection for a large frame for Fortune 500 companies and higher. As a matter of fact I can not think of one host that has a dedicated OC anything to their NOC. They say "we got OC 12" "we are on a gigabit network". Well that is misleading if you don't know this industry. First off they might have a mux of the fiber for something that big, but I bet it is dark fiber. Gigabit network? Sure internally. I mean of backbones of some providers are not even that big.

In closing I think you are just jumping the gun a little to fast and want to play with the big boys before you pay your dues. Now if you are Bill Gate's kid and want one for a home. I'll install it myself, but you're not, so work your way up like everybody else.

Actually, he merely asked a curious question. There's no real harm in that. Why assume too much about his motives?

These days, a host might be best served to go with a colocation datacenter before striking out on their own. T-1's don't cut it anymore, and it's expensive getting that first DS-3 before you have many clients.

Of course, some hosts do use OC-3 and OC-12 circuits for connectivity, although usually when you see it mentioned, they are merely referring to the mux capacity, not paid circuits. For example, pair is an OC-3c customer of Sprint and has been for a while. We have OC-12c proposals lined up from Sprint and other companies, as well.

I mention Sprint since you work there :)

Kevin

I totally understand where you are coming from. I am just explaining why nobody will give this guy a price. I mean you got to understand why nobody will just say, "Oh yeah an OC3 will be $$$$$$$ today." I was just trying to show Teraboy that there is a process involved.

Originally posted by sigma
To repeat the answer to another question posed here, DS-3 means fiber, T-3 means copper.

:confused:

Let me rephrase my question then: What do people run over a T3 other than a DS3?

Originally posted by cperciva


:confused:

Let me rephrase my question then: What do people run over a T3 other than a DS3?

That's like asking what kind of apple an orange is :) If your 44.736Mbps circuit is running point-to-point over copper lines, it's a T-3. If it's running point-to-point over fiber lines, it's a DS-3. The first is electrical on coax usually; the second is light on multimode.

Kevin

Originally posted by brently27
I totally understand where you are coming from. I am just explaining why nobody will give this guy a price. I mean you got to understand why nobody will just say, "Oh yeah an OC3 will be $$$$$$$ today." I was just trying to show Teraboy that there is a process involved.

Usually, yes.

As I mentioned, Genuity is offering something like $34,100 for 155Mbps OC-3c port charge. That's plus a local loop, which could be anywhere from $4K to $12K, depending on mileage, fiber provider, existing facilities, etc. Monthly, of course.

You can get cheaper, either by negotiating longer terms, playing hardball, or going with certain providers who tend to be cheaper.

Kevin

First off if you are talking about the US copper vs. fiber is right. If you are in Europe then a DS3 does not exist. It is all T3 and can go over either. Now since we know that, why would some people go with copper vs cable. Well location plays a big roll. If you are in a huge city with tons of fiber in the ground, then it is a no brainer. Now let's say you are out in BFE in North Dakota. There is copper in the ground, but to get fiber would require trenshing fiber to your location. So instalation is a pretty penny, you got to wait for the ground to thaw out, etc. I my opinion that is the main reason.

Originally posted by brently27
First off if you are talking about the US copper vs. fiber is right. If you are in Europe then a DS3 does not exist. It is all T3 and can go over either.

Not to be picky, but in Europe, it's E-3 and it delivers 51.84Mbps instead of 44.736Mbps.

Kevin

Originally posted by sigma

That's like asking what kind of apple an orange is :)


:confused:

ITU-T G.704 defines DS3 as a format for interleaving 28 DS1 signals, with a T3 (as defined in ITU-T G.703) as the intended carrier.

Oc level circuits are mostly used (in my experience) for internet connection for a large frame for Fortune 500 companies and higher.

Might amuse you ...........

me: why are we ordering an OC3 to run e-mail for 120 work stations?

my ex boss: because thats what the University has and I have to sit in meetings with them.

me: OK


Very Dilbert-esque (he even looked like the spiky haired boss).

Gordon

I got a chuckle out of that one.

I find this thread most instructive...
Originally posted by ClusterMania

You could always colocate at a carrier neutral facility and get a OC3 that way. No need to have the carrier dig up your front lawn and crunch your tulips.
That's exactly what my former host 34sp.com has done. They started end of last year and I must say they did very well. They are in UK but started with a RaQ3 at CobaltRacks, then moved to Catalog and finally, recently, moved everything to UK, a place called Interxion IEC in London, where they get connectivity from Level3. See 34sp.com/facilities.html (http://www.34sp.com/facilities.html) This is just to congratulate Daniel and Stuart who made an increddible job with 34sp I think :) Too bad my account expired, I should renew it, just waiting the JSP/Servlet stuff to arrive :cool:
I know you have to buy equipment and most serious people have no problems with that.
I guess a router and power control thingys and that kind of stuff...
Most importantly is finding out who offers the most affordable OC3 or bandwidth other than Cogent, Yipes, Level 3, Telseon and maybe a few others I don't know about.
Why other than those, aren't they ok?

Some of those companies are in serious money trouble. Remember @home? Windstar? Covad (not dead yet, but almost there), etc.

... and PSINet... I was wondering if the issue with @home would also affect the excite.com website, but seems like not

Cogent is private, but I can assure you that by mine and other industry analysts calculations, you have nothing more than 18 months until they are Ch. 11. (That's U.S. Bankruptcy Protection Law to you International readers.)

Of COURSE I may be wrong.

But consider that they run an OC-48 per 24 end users (sans SONET but still expensive) and then rely on expensive AboveNet paid transit or peering. The peering is working WELL for now, as is the AboveNet, but it will not last as clients suck up more than 20 Mbps or so. This is a tangent, Yes. But I've done a lot of research and that's my view.

Drew

I know we got rid of a lot of jobs on the ION side. (ION was a joke from the get go), but what do you see for Sprint?

Originally posted by drewnick
But consider that they run an OC-48 per 24 end users

Except that they don't. All of these Tier 1s racked up major bills laying cable all over the place; Cogent doesn't have to, because they're leasing dark fibre at a fraction of the cost it took to lay it all.

Cogent still has to buy the equipment, but they have a major advantage over the companies which are still ammortizing their fibre runs.

I'm asking myself about some specific vocabulary, maybe one of you knows... ?

Abreviations: There's T1, DS3, OC3...

T1 I understand T is for "Twisted Pair" (copper)
DS3 I guess DS is Digital Subscriber Line, right?
OC3 No idea...

The other thing I wonder is about the expression "local loop". Loop sounds like circle, a ring network, makes me think of Token Ring or maybe good old Current Loop which uses not voltage levels but rather electric current to carry the signal... But then, with optical connections I gues that doesn't make sense... In this thread I understood "local loop" as a link, a connection between the provider and a "consumer", a leased (or owned) line... But why is this called a loop?

OC stands for Optical Carrier I think.
I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.
It was brought in to distinguish it from copper wire type connections when fibre optics came into common use.

These terms are not used much in the UK.
Leased lines tend to be classified by throughput in MB.
(certainly thats the case when you contact a company for a quote)

Gordon

Originally posted by astra4
The other thing I wonder is about the expression "local loop". Loop sounds like circle, a ring network, makes me think of Token Ring or maybe good old Current Loop which uses not voltage levels but rather electric current to carry the signal... But then, with optical connections I gues that doesn't make sense... In this thread I understood "local loop" as a link, a connection between the provider and a "consumer", a leased (or owned) line... But why is this called a loop?

You need "transmit" and "receive", whether it's copper, fiber, whatever. So it does create a loop of sorts.

Kevin

I don't think anyone knows what the T in T1 stands for. It's just a designation. But I'm guessing that since it was originally used for voice communications and considered a trunk with 24 TDM channels, that it might have at one time stood for trunk.

The data stream that you get over a T1 is supposed to meet a certain signal level known as DS1, where DS stands for Digital Signal.

The signal level over a T3 is supposed to be a DS3. Now when someone says that they have a DS3, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're getting that signal level over a T3. They may be reaching that signal level over some other type of carrier.

SONET standards cover the base rate of a data stream over optical media. An Optical Carrier level of OC-1 just means that it's 1Xbase rate. An OC-3 is 3Xbase rate.

I know that Cogent claims to save by not using SONET. Can anyone comment on why this is so? I'm guessing reading an online tutorial of SONET will answer the question, but I thought someone may know offhand. Google->Sonet search started.

Originally posted by drewnick
I know that Cogent claims to save by not using SONET. Can anyone comment on why this is so?

SONET equipment is expensive. ;)

Seriously, that's about it. If all you're going to do is route IP packets, it doesn't matter if you use IP-over-sonet, IP-over-ethernet, or IP-over-PPP. The only difference is that ethernet equipment is incredibly cheap because it is in ubiquitous use.

The main reason that IP was ever routed over sonet was because the early ISPs didn't want to dedicate lines to their small IP business. In the beginning, all the IPv4 providers were also telcos, and were using bandwidth from their designed-for-voice-traffic networks -- which all ran SONET. With SONET it was easy to interleave voice and data traffic over the same optical fiber.

IP-only carriers don't have to worry about mixing with voice traffic, however; they have a raw fiber down which they can send whatever they like, in whatever format is convinient. So they use ethernet, because it is cheap, reliable, easily replaceable, and well understood.

That makes sense. So to clarify, the likes of UUNET and AT&T use the same network for their IP and voice traffic?

I still stand beside my assertation that Cogent can't last at the prices it is charging.

Regards,
Drew

Originally posted by drewnick
That makes sense. So to clarify, the likes of UUNET and AT&T use the same network for their IP and voice traffic?

I'm not sure if they *still* use the same network, but they did in the beginning, and once you've made a major investment in hardware it's not easy to throw it out the window and start over. Unless you're a government and the investment was made by the previous administration, of course.


I still stand beside my assertation that Cogent can't last at the prices it is charging.

You may well be right. It is clear to me that Cogent could profitably offer IP access at a lower cost than other carriers... whether they can profitably operate at the prices they are presently offering is quite another matter.

I was just reading your posts and figured I could give a little insight to alot of these questions that were raised. First of all The reason why I generally won't quote a price directly for a pipe larger than a few T-1's without a NDA is because (at least in my case) people like to know an exact price MRC and Install and 95% of the time if I quoted a price off the top of my head they will try to hold me to it (I would rather do it officially in writing). Also I like to make sure that the Lec who is installing the loop has the capability to handle an OC (Optical Circuit) or a DS (Digital Signal) pipe before moving forward with pricing. In addition to that you have to realize that maybe the ( using the OC3 example) OC3 they are looking for might not be the best solution to what the customer is trying to do. Alot of times customers with a need for a large amout of bandwidth like to use Multiple DS3's running BGP4 over them for added network redundancy and diverse routing especially in the case for DataCenters. So in turn we just don't run out and sell bandwidth and run away, we generally like to take the part of more a consultant rather than a salesman.
I'd be glad to answer any other questions you guys have.........I kinda owe it to the board after all the info I have gathered from it over the past year.

let's not forget that Cogent isn't overly truthfull about their prices ;). Cogent's 100 MBPS plan for $1,000/month is obviously a great price, but the fact is that ecommerce doesn't qualify for this rate. Cogent's rate for 100 MBPS for a regular person is around $3,000 (still amazing, to say the least)

Originally posted by drewnick
That makes sense. So to clarify, the likes of UUNET and AT&T use the same network for their IP and voice traffic?

I still stand beside my assertation that Cogent can't last at the prices it is charging.

Regards,
Drew

No I don't agree with you.

my reasons:

1) they won't give you a line untill there is a minimum purchase gross of 1000mps going into a building. that a min. gross of 10K per month or 120k per year.

2) the buildings that I found in NY that has cogent, used upwards of 10000mps

3) long term lease rates are cheap.

4) the pipes run along the sewer / electrical tunnels so they don't have to rip up the street. and these go right into the buildings. I bet they break even after 6 months.

mike

I talked to a cogent guy when I was thinking of buying their bandwidth. I don't know if they have a minimum other than the 100 MBPS that's their minimum charge.

Where is your information from, ADEhost? (I could be wrong, as I didn't exactly ask for the details ;))

Originally posted by ADEhost


No I don't agree with you.

my reasons:

1) they won't give you a line untill there is a minimum purchase gross of 1000mps going into a building. that a min. gross of 10K per month or 120k per year.

2) the buildings that I found in NY that has cogent, used upwards of 10000mps

3) long term lease rates are cheap.

4) the pipes run along the sewer / electrical tunnels so they don't have to rip up the street. and these go right into the buildings. I bet they break even after 6 months.

mike

Quick "burning the midnight oil" rebuttal:

1. This (1 Gbps per building requirement) will limit them greatly to just a few buildings with mostly ISP's primarily doing outbound traffic. What end user uses an average of more than 100 kbps? I surf the net all day, and today my average IN was 7.5 kbps. Out was 2.6 kbps. I'd say the average user in a high-rise tower may use this much or slightly more. Perhaps less.
[Tangent: 1,000 Mbps requires 10,000+ users/building @ my liberal estimate above. At my usage, you're looking at 100,000 users/building. That's twice the WTC's former user base per tower. Clearly the only buildings that qualify are ISP-laden towers. Read on for why ISP-only towers are bad.]

<opinion> Their (Cogent's) nationwide optical network needs as much bandwidth passing across it as possible to succeed.</opinion>

What good are the plethora of buildings they bought through aquisitions in fire sales (Allied Riser & NetRail) if they require such a high utilization? Where are you getting this data? Why do they trumpet these aquisitions if, according to you, they are wrong?


2. Again, please document your sources. How many buildings? This may well be true, but I'd like to see your sources. If this is the case, what is the balance in incoming and outgoing traffic? An inblance is trouble. New York would be a nice sample of Cogent's traffic to analyze if you do indeed have credible sources.

3. True.

4. They use "dark fiber" for their MAN rings. This is of course cheap. It's the Internet transit and peering that gets them, in **addition** to the high cost they're paying the local monopolies for access to the dark fiber. Fiber is never cheap, ever.

I hope others will add to this discusssion. It can only strengthen our realistic view of a true pioneer (albeit good or bad) in the industry. Please prove me dead wrong. I will thank you. I hope Cogent makes it, but I'm skeptical.

Cheers,
Drew

Sorry there were some aras of missunderstanding. this is of course my fault. plase let me clarify.

Cogent sells the 100mbps line (1k or 3k per month) or the 1000mbps line (10k or 30K per month). they don't care how much you use on it.

the building must have a demand to purchase 10 x 100mbps lines so that they can install it. The usage has nothing to do with it( that's where you and me had our mis-understanding.)

in NYC and in certain parts of NJ. T-1'a run about equal price ( or just a few dollars less ) to the 100mbps line that cogent offers.

If I was Cogent I would offer this service to the new york film companies. this way they could upload and down load there projects nation wide.

I spoke to a cogent rep. ( i said i had a business not a web hosting company ) I ask about getting the 100 mbps line for my office. the first thing he said was " what's your address" then I told him. he said that building was not good and advised me of what buildings were near by that already had cogent installed.

I then asked him what would it take to get cogent into my building. He said about 10k monthly billing, but the install time would be about 4 months wait. Again he told me of the building nearby that had it. If you call your cogent rep, they will gladly tell you what building are installed and what buildings are in line for instalation.

I do have a problem with the #4 statement.
I think that those cost are minimal (local monopolies) for local access. but I have no proof of that. It's just that with the overage of bandwidth they want to get any funds they can. and just might be giving it away.

Michael