http://www.moremotion.com/

I've been learning how to use this WYSIWYG XML/XSLT editor. I think it's fantastic, but I can also see it will take me several months to figure out how to use it. The tech support is excellent and quite responsive, however there is a bit of a language barrier, as they are located in Istanbul. This has not been a problem, but the learning curve is a bit steep. I'm wondering if anyone else is using it? Although not proficient with it yet, I'm recommending it, with a warning that the mid-range product I mention here cost me $400.00. There's a free trial version. I've committed to MM now for better or for worse. It would help to make contact with anyone else committed to using it!

:gthumb: so far!

It looks very interesting...too bad I don't have that kind of money to blow on an editor :( Spent all my funds on 7 other programs! Ahhh!!

I will try out the free version though...and I hope that you will post some links to what you've done with this editor in the near future :)

Good luck with it!

My first effort was the domain parking and error pages I've linked to with www.ericjbowman.com. I was suitably impressed that making those pages took a small fraction of the time the image editing did, maybe 30 minutes from start to upload - pretty easy to use. I'm also a sucker for an editor that spits out good table-based sites, I should've mentioned that. I don't consider my money 'blown' at all! :)

My other site linked to from there is the one to keep an eye on in the upcoming days. Getting spiffy effects like rollovers, etc. isn't a priority, nor is that site open for business, so no comments yet please!

I approach WYSIWYG editors with a great deal of caution, only because I have yet to see one that properly understood the relationship between HTML and CSS, coded validly and understood the nuances of accessibility/usability to an adequate degree.

Of course XML/XSLT is a slightly different beast, but similar relationships exist. I would love to hear back on how well this application "gets it." The "big three" (FP, GoLive, DW) are probably the worst at getting it right. I understand there's a Moz-based editor that comes pretty close, but I haven't researched it myself.

I've posted some of my ancient work in this thread (http://www.webhostingtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=289368). All my work posted there was hand-coded using notepad. In 1998, I wrote my own CMS - hand coded in notepad - in SSJS no less! I actually used to host dreamweaver.com. Really. I've been dinking around with this new editor long enough to stand behind the code it generates, table-wise. I just don't know much CSS, but the software comes with plenty of sample apps which demonstrate it well. I limit my CSS to the basics, and forgo positioning.

I have never seen such clean (x)html output from a WYSIWYG editor, again with the table qualifier. I do firmly believe this is the result of this software being XSLT-based. You do have to make absolutely sure to get your page elements aligned properly, but the toolbar makes this almost fun. It can also output as xml/xslt, but I prefer doing my sites with tables -- I don't want to spend all my time on compatability. I like that this editor leaves those choices to me.

As to accessibility/usability, I presume you mean in the IDE as opposed to the website itself? That's what makes me think it'll take a while to figure out. It's got way more features staring me in the face than I can begin to understand. Pretty strong endorsement, eh? Maybe they'll give me a discount on their unaffordably-priced suite! :)

Oh, they've also informed me that one of my ideas will be included in the next release. The company stands behind its product, I've been corresponding with them for months, and you're dealing with the team that's developing the product. Nice touch.

Well, I might just have to suspend disbelief long enough to give this a proper evaluation. IMHO, nothing will ever entirely replace handcoding for the control you get over the output, but given the circumstances in which a WYSIWYG editor is necessary (customer maintained sites, for example), it would be nice having an editor I could feel reasonably comfortable recommending. Thanks for bringing this to light!

Paul H

Did you know XML / XSLT before using this product?

I've past the age where hand-coding has appeal - particularly if it means learning xslt from the ground-up. The key thing I forgot to mention is the template system. That's why my practice sites have come together quickly - change an image dimension in Photoshop, a few mouse clicks, it's updated site-wide. Unfortunately, this feature has triggered quite a few support messages, as it throws the current version a bit.

Originally posted by pmoduk2
Did you know XML / XSLT before using this product?

Who says I know it now? ;)

I'm in the middle of my second allnighter in a row. There's a timezone disadvantage, but only if I look at it from a half-empty perspective. But during these wee hours (here) is when I'm most productive with web work anyway - it's quiet. 9-5 here, I don't get the response from Turkey until next day, if you follow. However, last night and tonight I've sent them over a dozen emails. Each has been replied to within 15 minutes!

So, I've been picking their brains because I need to include my wiki and forums inside the pages I'm developing in their editor. So I'm staring the classic IFRAMES vs. PHP INCLUDES thing right in the face. I'm going to start a whole new (and fresh, yes I've searched here) thread about that soon, possibly, as I've chosen wiki and forum software which stores in flat files not mySQL and my concerns are performance and searches.

Anyway, here's the very last paragraph (I'm not expecting to need to contact them again until next week, they've provided me with three different possibilities here) from their last email to me on the issue, (edit: several issues) with my response:

____________________________
<snip />
I'll get there, I'm just sticking with what I know how to do right now. My purchase decision was actually based on how impressed I was with the html it generates, particularly tables. What can I say, I started doing this in 1993! The other factor in purchasing, was knowing I won't have to change editors as I change my ways. :)

-Eric

>
>Although mmwd gives you such flexibilities we should remember the primary
>concern of the mmwd is generating XSLT style sheets.
>
_____________________________

The third way is XSLT, but I'm a babe in the woods! I will post again soon with the fresh project upload, without any includes. There are two different page styles derived from the same template. I will also post a .txt file with some of the XML output, again the project currently outputs as xhtml.

edit: The frilly rollover effects turned out to be cake.

Originally posted by BigBison
I will also post a .txt file with some of the XML output, again the project currently outputs as xhtml.

...err... make that html4. You want doctypes this baby gives you xml/xslt, skips xhtml altogether I think.

Bit of a miscommunication. Presuming the wiki I wish to include were also xml-based, I could use xsl to include the files. A bit beyond me at this point. As this isn't the case, I'm back to iframe vs. php include.

XML files can be included in other XML files, not a problem.

The issue here will be that if you chose to develop your site as XML, ie, your links are foo.xml -- then you will run into rendering issues with most browsers (because they go into quirks mode with the xml declaration).

You have a fourth(?) option -- you can read the XML files in PHP and then render them from there -- leaving your site as foo.php, and also eliminating the quirks mode issue because you won't need the xml declaration.

Keep in mind that proper xhtml documents also need the xml declaration, but there is no xml police that will come arrest you if you don't include the declaration in a xhtml file.

I didn't mean to imply my links/files would be .xml on the server. The editor would allow me to do this if I so chose, but I'd use a script to detect browser, serve up xml or html based on that, or use moremotion's advanced suite which has a server-side component. Currently, the pages are all .html. I'm working on it, but you'll understand why I'm doing it the way I am once my site's up. What xslt does, and why I like this editor, is it takes the xml (which are the raw files the editor saves locally) and translates it to the html (or php) pages which I then upload to my website. I'm generating html w/ css, but I'm not editing any html or css - any code view I get in the editor is either script, css or raw xml. Aside from the script editor, I've done everything in wysiwyg mode which is why I'm impressed.