Over the past few years I have talked with a lot of web designers and programmers. Now the two that I used lately were rude to me. Called me old fashioned but if I am paying for a service then I want to tell them how I want it. For example the first designer I said no I don't like that and chage that and fix that, you know all the little things. Eventually he got fed up and said he wouldn't do anymore and for me to get someone else.

Well I know I might be a little pickey about my site but who isn't. I mean we all want it to be good right? If we are paying don't we have the right to tell the designer what to do?

I understand where you are coming from, but you also have to think how some designers (and sometimes myself) think. We get a vision for a site, a look, a feel, etc. all that artsy and then the client asks for changes...but when more and more changes happen, it kind of ruines what the artist had envisioned...

I'm guilty of this, I think a lot of people are...we just have to learn how to hide it...

As a web designer myself, I've dealt with clients who have been extremely picky about their site, and also those who wanted to leave everything up to me. It's important for a designer to know which category a client falls into BEFORE he/she starts work on the web site. For example, a designer might want to charge a little more for a picky client than a client who would allow you to use your creative judgement.

This designer might be feeling like he gave you a fixed price quote for a certain amount of work, but that through all the changes he's had to make to the site, he's actually getting the bad end of the deal. I always like working with picky clients more when I'm getting paid by the hour- that way, they can nitpick as much as they want, and I am happy to change whatever they need changed until they are perfectly happy. Sometimes, this even ends up being less than what I would have quoted in the first place -- but I bet I would still feel better being paid hourly.

Another thing I've learned is that some clients know EXACTLY how they want their site to look, down to the very last detail... and sometimes the client's vision is not concurrent with the designer's. That is to say, some changes the client requests may make the designer feel like he is detracting from the quality of the web site. In these cases, I always advise the client of my opinion, but the client is the boss- if he/she still wants the change to be done, then I will do it without a second thought. This may very well be an issue for your designer, as well- he wants to be able to take pride in his work, and feels that you're not making decisions that are helpful to your web site. Unfortunately, a lot of designers can forget who's paying them - and the fact that YOU are the boss, and not THEM.

In response to your particular situation... I might be able to see where your designer is coming from, but just giving up is really the easy way out. YOU are the paying customer, and you do deserve to get what you pay for.

One tip, though, for both designers and clients... if at all possible, have a personal meeting instead of doing it all through the Internet. I've found this makes the process more enjoyable both for the client and myself, because we both get to connect on a personal level. It's a lot easier to get mad at someone you've never met, and who is only represented by words on your screen than it is to get mad at someone you know to be trying his or her hardest.

In any event, best of luck in your search for a designer, and hopefully your next selection will act in a more professional manner.

Brian Farkas

I come from a webdesign background, and have dealt with clients who are picky about their site. Although at times frustrating, I found it best to listen to their needs, and make changes as they requested - after all, the end product will be theirs, so your views on it are less important.

Originally posted by netsolutions
Over the past few years I have talked with a lot of web designers and programmers. Now the two that I used lately were rude to me. Called me old fashioned..

There are also allot of "new" designers out there at the moment (mmm..ok I'm one too :D) and some of them just don't have the experience to deal properly with clients.

For me, I will design a site with the client in mind first, but trying to put in my own ideas about what I would want a site to look like if I was, say looking for hosting myself..if (s)he doen't like it, I'll do a design more closley related to thier ideas, and if I don't like it..it doen't get put into my portfolio :D Simple as that.

hth,
Douglas

To a certain extent I've experienced the same sorts of issues and generally I avoid most of them by discussing options, designs, etc... at each stage of the process.

However there have been a few situations where I've been unwilling to make changes requested by a client when the following things occur:

1. They insist that I stick to my original quote but want "extra" features added.

2. They want certain things to be possible eg: accessibility, ease of navigation/use, etc... BUT at the same time don't understand (or won't listen!) why cutting edge technology would completely deep six those requirements.

3. They insist they know more about the web, users, etc... based on the experience they have built up in the past 3 months on AOL, as opposed to my 5 years. Not to say that their views are useless but I'm talking about their 3 months being everything! ;)

You get the idea... ;)

Note; I'm not saying you are like that at all... but there are definitely situations where the customer is perhaps not so much picky as uninformed and to go down the route they're requesting would leave me wide open to either "it doesn't do what I asked" or demands for yet more "freebies" in the future.

Just my 10 penneth worth...

I as a designer tend to do as the customer wants even if it means it will be a crappy site.

I just offer suggestions as I go along, try to make them understand some of the things they want are not feasable or not the right choice. Now if they persist in it I will try to accomodate.

Pretty simple stuff. I once learned "The customer is always right".


Sam

Originally posted by ProSam
I as a designer tend to do as the customer wants even if it means it will be a crappy site.

I just offer suggestions as I go along, try to make them understand some of the things they want are not feasable or not the right choice. Now if they persist in it I will try to accomodate.

Pretty simple stuff. I once learned "The customer is always right".I used to do that but I suffered from a customer who had terminal lack of memory when it came to his insistence that I do something that ruined the site... All sorts of nasty threats and I ended up losing him as a customer anyway... A real no win situation.

Each to their own though.

Originally posted by WebSnail.net
I used to do that but I suffered from a customer who had terminal lack of memory when it came to his insistence that I do something that ruined the site... All sorts of nasty threats and I ended up losing him as a customer anyway... A real no win situation.

Each to their own though.

Thank God I have not run into a situation like, yet.:rolleyes:

Why don't you make contracts? Why don't you get a set of specifications? If the client does not give you specifications then you should write up everything and get it in writing before you start the work and make a commitment. Of course, visual design has to be tweaked, but most of this including layout, could be agreed upon (may be mockups) before you start working on a project. If the client says (being happy is another thing) that he is not getting what was expected the you have most of it in writing to prove otherwise. I hope that makes sense.

Hello!

I think this is the case where the "customer is" (indeed) "always right".

As a web design company, we have a concept of what the site should look like basing from our initial gathering of details from the client. We present the concept and if the client is not satisfied, we listen to what he/she wants. He/she can even suggest his own envisioned design at this stage. Of course, we can always see how clever the design can be. What we will do is to simply comment and suggest and present some "compromising alternatives."

As a web design company however, it is always satisfying if your conceptual design is well-taken and "respected" by your client as it is. But, there should always be a sense of openness. Otherwise, the profits gained from the free flow of ideas will not be enjoyed.


:)

Originally posted by Gurudev
Why don't you make contracts? Why don't you get a set of specificationsExactly. Basically, these kinds of situations are the terrain of low-cost webdesign, freelance individual designers who are doing sites for a couple of hundred dollars. And I don't mean to belittle or in general criticize the lone freelancer; many people do great work this way. I've hired a few myself. What I'm critical of is the mindset of many customers that the cheapest bid is usually the right choice, and of the marketplace that has people selling web design services at a price too low to allow them to take the time to do it right -- and that allows or even encourages inexperienced beginners to undercut experienced designers who might be more likely to get it right.

In those situations it's not even practical to take the time to produce complete page-by-page specifications, asset lists, storyboards, mockups, etc. And, since it's one designer working alone, there's not even collaboration that might suggest that the design isn't as universally appealing as the designer might think it is.

It's a tradeoff for the customer like netsolutions. Take the cheapest approach and you get an amateurish -- or at best, simplistic -- approach both to design and production and to customer relations. Pay more, and you get better service.

Just another way of saying "You get what you pay for."

I agree. Sometimes, the cheapest may not be the best choice. But, for all you know sometimes (too) the cheapest may surprise you! Quality need not be expensive. You may need to risk a little to find out.


Originally posted by JayC
...What I'm critical of is the mindset of many customers that the cheapest bid is usually the right choice, and of the marketplace that has people selling web design services at a price too low to allow them to take the time to do it right -- and that allows or even encourages inexperienced beginners to undercut experienced designers who might be more likely to get it right. ...


:)

Originally posted by consul
I agree. Sometimes, the cheapest may not be the best choice. But, for all you know sometimes (too) the cheapest may surprise you! Quality need not be expensive. You may need to risk a little to find out.

Sometimes it also takes a lot of time to design a layout. If someone just wants a template design, that's fine. If they want an original non "cookie cutter" site it'll cost in time, service/pay (no way around all the time and fast food/colas consumed!) .

I do like the exchange for services going on here. A host doesn't have to have cash upfront for a site design; a designer has an incentive to create and get compensated (bandwidth, bandwidth, bandwidth). This type of exchange also has an additional insurance for both: for if the designer doesn't come up with agreed to design the designer is out of his/her prize; if the host isn't honest s/he'll take a rep hit on the forum. So both parties are compensated.

Chris

I have found that often as a designer you can get caught between the fire of office politics.

I recently did a site for a telecommunications company. The CEO was happy with my design proposals, but his head of I.T. liked to mess around with Front Page and considered himself 'web design savvy' he wanted to included all kinds of scrolling, crap animations and flashing lights, where as I wanted good clean web design and functionality.

So I was faced with the situation where I had to defeat the I.T. manager without offending him or the CEO. Not an easy task, but I did it.

So I was faced with the situation where I had to defeat the I.T. manager without offending him or the CEO. Not an easy task, but I did it.


Howd you pull that off? LOL, sounds interesting.

As far as netsol's situation goes.. I think the bases have been covered. The buyer should either have a good idea of what they want and let it be known beforehand, or be willing to pay extra. It's too hard to communicate through words how you want something to look. I've never designed someone elses site for money, but if I ever do I would require them to have sites with styles similair to what they want available for me to look at. And as said previously, when it comes to this, the customer IS always right.

Im currently looking for someone to design a template for me if someone on this board could suggest one to me.

Ive visited all those $20 template sites, but they dont measure up to what im looking for, but it seems most of the good designers normally wont take a project unless its a $2,000.00+ site.

Im looking for a great designer thats willing to do just a one page template, any suggestions?

Originally posted by JDF


Howd you pull that off? LOL, sounds interesting.



It was a process of education and sales ability. I had to sell the benefits of clear, clean web design. Point out the difference to what the IT guy was suggesting, without in any way denegrating his suggestions. Eventually, by implying that his suggestion would be FANTASTIC if used on another type of site, I gave him a way out without any loss of face.

Hi!
I have two ways of working.
1) The customer is always right .... after all he pays for my bread and butter and I really appriciate it.
2) When he keeps changing the design I charge him. If its small cosmetic changes fine, it's done free other wise the customer is charged.
This is a must otherwise there are many who go on. You can't pay for a car and expect and aircraft. If you want to upgrade to your own aircraft then pay for it....
On the other hand understanding the clients needs is a must too.. If his demands are valid then I would always do the work for him (mostly free of any extra charge)

The ultimate aim for a designer/developer is to have the client make money out of the site otherwise even the desinger/developer is a failiure.

Have a great day :)

regards
amar

Originally posted by bobcares
1) The customer is always right .... after all he pays for my bread and butter and I really appriciate it.


I don't buy this "customer is always right" crap. Where is your integrity as a professional? You are being employed for your ability as a designer. If the customer is always right, you may as well let him design the site.

Hello again!

You have a good point there privatebox. There has to be something left with professionalism. The reality however, is the client hires you to design his/her site and he/she is paying you for that. Somehow, you have to satisfy him/her. And if you feel that your professionalism has been "trampled" upon due to some "useless" change requests, there is always a way to refund the client.

It is encouraged however that you attempt to explain to your client the implications of his/her requests so that he/she will understand your point and a possible misunderstanding will be prevented.

We suggest you issue a 30-day guarantee. If the client doesn't like your design after say one(1) or the most three(3) minor revisions, then he/she can request for a refund without questions asked.

However, there has to be a clear cut line between what you consider minor revisions and major revisions --any ideas on these?

Of course you keep the rights to your original design in case of a refund. If after 30 days there is no refund request, then the agreement is deemed binding and you get to keep the pay. This way the client will also have the pressure to make up his/her mind of what he/she really wants. What do you think?


:)

Originally posted by consul
We suggest you issue a 30-day guarantee. If the client doesn't like your design after say one(1) or the most three(3) minor revisions, then he/she can request for a refund without questions asked.
[...]
What do you think?I think you'd be risking doing a lot of work for no compensation, and you'd accomplish the same goal just by spending a few additional hours at the beginning of the project preparing and presenting a detailed site plan.

What you're suggesting is basically like doing spec work: essentially you're completing a design and letting the client decide after you've done that whether they want it or not. In a way, the 30-day guarantee plan is worse, because you've let the client have the design for 30 days. What's to stop them from saying they don't want it -- after they've saved a copy. Then, a few changes and they have their own design, "inspired" by yours.

Don't tell me that will never happen!

Web design is devalued enough already. Don't devalue your work more by working for free.

Well, What we can do is to issue an agreement that all design copyrights belong to us before or within the guarantee period. Technically, they don't own the design yet. I don't know if that will solve the issue. Will it? Forgive us if that is how we want to deal with our clients. But, do feel free to suggest better alternatives. We are open. Ok? Thanks in advance.

Working for free. Hehe. We will only do that for a worthy not-for-profit organization on a case to case basis. But essentially you have the point there.

Quoted from JayC:

Web design is devalued enough already. Don't devalue your work more by working for free.

:)

No. That is not how I work.

When I pitch for a job, I will usually create up to three non functioning mock-ups as part of the proposal following a fact finding meeting or meetings. I will create these mock-ups in Photoshop.

At the next meeting, I will present these to the client and obtain his or her reaction. 9/10 times they will like one of the designs or part of one and some of the others. I'll go away and incorporate their suggestions into the plan.

At the third meeting we'll look at the new designs and I will attempt to obtain their approval and and one third of the fee.

I will then build the site adding functionality and they will be involved throughout this process.

The second third is payable upon completion, the final payment after debugging. I am not saying that this is the right way, just my way.

I have been doing this now for almost 5 years and have never offered or been asked for a refund.

Originally posted by privatebox


I don't buy this "customer is always right" crap. Where is your integrity as a professional? You are being employed for your ability as a designer. If the customer is always right, you may as well let him design the site.

Tell this to your customers and see what he says...
I guess professionalism is how well you can handle work and a designers work is to design a site that the client wants...
I don't say beg to them. I say give them the money worth they have paid for. If they ask for more charge them more that is understandable but telling them that there is something wrong with them does not solve the issue. You win the argument but loose the customer....

Have a great day :)

regards
Amar

Originally posted by privatebox

I will then build the site adding functionality and they will be involved throughout this process.
A sound approach. The point is that the client is involved in the process all the way so any of their suggestions can either be implemented or advised against before you've gotten beyond the point where making the changes is practical. If they don't like any of your original mockups, you find out some of their thinking and produce another one, before you've invested a lot time in heavy work. The client feels that they are having their say, and since the client is seeing the work progressing, they have a sense of how much is being done and so why major changes are a big deal -- and would have to be charged for.

Something too, for anyone considering this kind of approach to keep in mind, is that those Photoshop mockups can be the source of some of the actual images you'll use in the site -- so in that way some work is already done.

Biggest plus for the designer is that you're getting paid as the work progresses, so you're never caught with having done a lot of work and not being paid (the 50% deposit and balance upon delivery approach works well, too).

Originally posted by bobcares
You win the argument but loose the customer....


The thing is this, I get all of my work from recommendation. Customers expect a strong design input from me, that's why they come.

Before I entered this business, my background was in sales/design so I probably have a little more chutzpah than the the average pixel monkey. It's just the way I am.....

PB

Originally posted by privatebox


The thing is this, I get all of my work from recommendation. Customers expect a strong design input from me, that's why they come.

Before I entered this business, my background was in sales/design so I probably have a little more chutzpah than the the average pixel monkey. It's just the way I am.....

PB

I guess you felt offended. I'm sorry if I did offend you. My only aim was to say that we must really look into the customer satisfaction and if it has failed we must learn why...
In software engineering we have a concept of postmortem which is very similar to what doctors do to the dead.
Study the reasons for success or failiure and improve our working methods...
This really helps in being more professional too...


Anyway I did not mean to offend anyone...
Have a great day :)

regards
amar

Originally posted by bobcares
I guess professionalism is how well you can handle work and a designers work is to design a site that the client wants... A designers work is to design.

I think I'm agreeing with privatebox when I say if a potential client has some shaky design ideas, explain to him what is wrong with the idea and offer your suggestion of what approach to take. If he won't listen to you, yep, lose the customer.

Any other approach is going to come back and haunt you. Either the client himself will come back after several months and say "this site you made for me isn't as cool as my competitor's site," or your own reputation as a designer will suffer when people connect you to your customers wrongheaded design.

Or the flawed design will simply mean a failing site -- few repeat visitors, sluggish sales, whatever. As privatebox implied when referring to "your integrity as a professional," you should take responsibility for giving your client the best site you can design. If you take the client's design and specs and produce a site to them, you're not a designer... you're a coder. Not that there's anything wrong with that. :)

Of course there's gray area in practice; rarely will a client give you a complete and concrete design. But the existence of gray area also prevents the statement "the customer is always right" from always being right.

Offended? Me? I don't think so.

Originally posted by privatebox


I don't buy this "customer is always right" crap. Where is your integrity as a professional? You are being employed for your ability as a designer. If the customer is always right, you may as well let him design the site.

true, but you should not tell them this on there face :blush:

My company also use to design for people some time back but we stop doing that because of crap kind of customer who don't know anything about internet yet they suggest funny things never apply with there web sites. like they want us to put movies on there web site in place of animation. :laugh:

some client want us to make animation like start TV and cnn on there web site and yet the price they was paying us was dirt less then anyone will pay for simple html web site.

Actually we never got this custom kind design so I closed the design department because it wasn't generating good revenues.

Well, please tell me one thing how you guys (designers) go for making contract with your clients?

What things your write on that contract?.

Are there any issues considered, like if you made design 1 and client didn't like it, then you made design 2 client didn't like it, how long this will go on !!.

Is any time period written in contract?

What about flash web sites? How you guys calculate cost of animation, do you write script for it before it is created? something like sound director who creates a raw theme for movie director?

Please flash some light on this.