Do not use them. I originally met Chris West on this board and after a very clear discussion about my business model, full disclosure of my website, processes and methodologies, and his assurance that there would be no problems and he would take care of me, I decided to tranfer my services to them. Once I got set up (as many of you know, not an easy process and very time consuming while your business is in limbo) with them they decided they didn't like my business model so they cancelled my account and now they are holding our money. It's been over 90 days now and they refuse to release the cash or even return phone calls. They won't even disclose exactly how much they are holding.

I have tried to resolve this at so many levels with this company that I am completely frustrated.

Be warned, CDG Commerce is just a husband and wife "Independent Sales Office". They do not actually work for the company that controls your money. That is United Bank Card and they are located in New Jersey.

Right behind this company in poor service is Card Service International. You will find frequently that the Sales Department is just trying to close sales and they could care less what happens to you once you get sent to the MSP and the Acquiring Bank they all work for.

Ultimately I ended up at Bank of America. Employees actually answer the phone here. And if there is a problem on your account, they call you rather than suspending your account and sending you to the Risk Management Department.

This is the first bad thing I can remember hearing about cdgcommerece...

I've never had a problem with Chris, Laura, or Adam (those are the 3 that I've dealt with). CDG is very easy to work with, and is an authorized agent.

Once I got set up (as many of you know, not an easy process and very time consuming while your business is in limbo) with them they decided they didn't like my business model so they cancelled my account and now they are holding our money. It's been over 90 days now and they refuse to release the cash or even return phone calls. They won't even disclose exactly how much they are holding.They didn't like your business model? I think there's something that you're not telling us about this.

- Matt

Originally posted by mainarea
<snip>
They didn't like your business model? I think there's something that you're not telling us about this.

- Matt [/B] I fully agree with you Matt, I think there is a LOT more than they're telling us here.

I've been with CDG for a while now and any issue I had was solved quickly, some of the issues were from my own doing too. I have also had assistance from 4 different people at CDG so the Husband/Wife team are not the only people providing support there.

What is your business model? What are you selling?

I prefer to work with husband/wife teams and this is the first complaint ever about chris.

Chris has always been a stand up guy on this board. I too think there is more than meets the eye to this story. We'll have to see what Chris has to say as I'm sure he'll be replying soon enough.

Well, this is certainly a new experience. We've never, ever been publicly slandered before in nearly 6 years of doing business with many thousands of merchants... but I guess there is a first time for everything.

We hold our clients privacy in the utmost of confidence so I am certainly not going to violate this policy by disclosing any specifics pertaining to your organization, business issues or the reason(s) why you have had serious issues with more than one processor - both before, during, and after your tenure with us... per your own public admission above.

Frankly, I think that the vindictive and emotional way that you have lashed out at not only CDG but also CSI, UBC and the other businesses that you have mentioned in your post is by itself an unfavorable reflection on yourself and your own organization.

Anyone who has ever worked with CDGcommerce first hand can readily attest to the exact opposite of many of the comments that you have made. Some of them are so baseless as to not even merit a response.

Our staff has worked tirelessly to always put our merchant's first and to provide the very best possible service and support. We maintain a clear public presence and have worked exceptionally hard to build and maintain the excellent industry reputation that we have.

I don't know or understand what you hope to gain by committing a public act of libel against us, but I can assure you that it won't have any effect on the decision-making process related to your account, one way or the other.

Chris

Its only libel if his being untruefull, so is he lying or not? Without divulging any private information, why is the guy claiming no one is returning his calls, the merchant not telling him why his acct was closed and funds being held even after 90 days, why you signed him up when he was a risk...allot of valid questions he brought up, which you clearly ignored

The guy already lied once with the Be warned, CDG Commerce is just a husband and wife "Independent Sales Office". Why would you think Chris or anyone else should answer the guy?


Madmerch-" They don't return calls"

CDG-"We returned all calls"

I mean come on, what can be proven other than the fact the guy has not disclosed his site, or the type of business he was using to make money from? It seems to be a pretty clear attempt to slam CDG as well as United Bank. There also seems to be a pattern of this guy being shut down from various processors.

If someone posts a "This host sucks" thread the WHT members are usually calling on them to provide some proof of their claims. This guy hasn't provided proof of a single thing.

It looks like MadMerch acts as a credit card processing aggregator for other stores. Here's the link from MadMerch's profile: http://www.madmerch.com/

I've been with CDG Commerce for just over 3 months now and so far, no complaints.

Bah. Another baseless thread by another 1-post wonder. No details, no substantiated proof, no credibility. Just plain useless libelous drivel.

Man, I sure wish WHT had a better mechanism in place to prevent this type of crap from being spewed all over our community.

madmerch, next time you decide to smear someone's name in a public forum, come better prepared, OK? Present facts and proof and full disclosure. Otherwise, you end up with what is happening in this thread. You have zero credibility and it's very hard to take you seriously. Even for a second.

cdg has been a respected member and a valuable contributor to the community for some time, and he has earned a great reputation. It'll take a lot more than a few unsubstantiated cheap shots to convince us otherwise.

Vito

I just feel the need to add my comment here:

I have never used cdgcommerce, I use echo for my processing needs but if I ever needed to use a new company it would likely be cdg just based on the professional dealings I have seen him have over and over again even right here on this very forum.

Many companies come and go but I think cdg is here to stay and I've recommended more than a few people to head that direction and I don't even use them.

As for this, I agree with vito 100%, WHT needs something in place to filter this worthless type of post out of here.

Have a great day!

I decided to go with CDG because I saw Chris here on WHT as an active member. Contacted them with a few requirements, they were helpful the entire time. Added Discover card, Adam put that onto my account within about 15 minutes after confirmation of my merchant number. CDG is a great company, and I look forward to working with them for a long time. It took us a year to move from PayPal payments only to PayPal & CC, we're not moving things again ;)

- Matt

Originally posted by AlaskanWolf
Chris

Its only libel if his being untruefull, so is he lying or not? Without divulging any private information, why is the guy claiming no one is returning his calls, the merchant not telling him why his acct was closed and funds being held even after 90 days, why you signed him up when he was a risk...allot of valid questions he brought up, which you clearly ignored

It sounds to me like he knows WHY his account was closed, apparently his type of business or web site did not satisfy the merchant account TOS/AUP whatever. I mean he even admits himself that he's had no less than 2 merchant providers toss him out at this point, that's enough information to figure this guy's business model/type is WHY they tossed him.

CDG doesn't wish to divulge details about the customer, that's their business, if CDG didn't return calls and acted as this person claims then I'm sure there'd be more than one bad thread about them by now.

I would be curious to know if the customer did in fact make it VERY clear about his site/business/etc so that it can be determined if CDG really did know that the customer was likely to get tossed or if the guy kinda "glossed over" the details to try and get the account when he really hadn't been clear. One person's "clear explanation" is another person's "muddy details".

If the agreements he signed didn't stipulate that setup fees/etc are non refundable then I'd suppose he's owed a refund but if they clearly stated no refunds then I suppose he's SOL.

Originally posted by tpt
It looks like MadMerch acts as a credit card processing aggregator for other stores. Here's the link from MadMerch's profile: http://www.madmerch.com/

I've been with CDG Commerce for just over 3 months now and so far, no complaints.
It is usually something with the merchant that causes some problems. That is usually the case. And then the other people that are a little difficult to deal with are the risk analysis people.

Unfortunately most people think that if they are bringing a company $100K or more in processing, the processor should bend over backwards to do anything possible to get the account. A lot of the times, it happens, but when the business model does not meet with Visa / MasterCard rules & regulations, there is very little you can do about it.

It sounds like Chris might have treid to help him & it could not work out. 10 to 1 he even told MadMerch that it probably was not possible, but a lot of new merchants tend to have selective hearing.

If the agreements he signed didn't stipulate that setup fees/etc are non refundable then I'd suppose he's owed a refund but if they clearly stated no refunds then I suppose he's SOL.
No setup fees at CDG if you use their normal promotions :)

- Matt

Originally posted by cdgcommerce
Our staff has worked tirelessly to always put our merchant's first and to provide the very best possible service and support.

I have to state that I for one have never met a better company to deal with. I have referred many clients to CDG and will continue. I had switched from my previous processor which was ripping me off to CDG and I have never looked back. They are great!!! Husband/Wife who cares! As long as my needs were taken care of, which they were 100% +.

CDG is a husband/wife/other staff company :D Chris and Laura are NOT the only people working there or running things. There's also Adam and Prasad, not sure who else though. I sure can't complain about the level of service that we've seen from them.

- Matt

As with everyone else who has experience with Chris and CDGCommerce - I see no basis for claims of poor customer service, etc...

My experience with Chris has been simply outstanding and their support is second to none...

My gut tells me theres alot more going on here and good on Chris not to air publicly...

His reputation justifiably preceeds him....

There's also Jerry, Kathy, Sue, Ann, to name a couple. :)

While our company was indeed founded by Laura and myself back in '98, our dedicated team is truly what makes it all work smoothly on a daily basis.

And... thank you to everyone here for your kind words about our company, it is sincerely appreciated.

Originally posted by mainarea
No setup fees at CDG if you use their normal promotions :)

- Matt

Oh duh yeah I should know that I got a merchant account through them MYSELF, so wonder what money he was screwed out of then?

Well I am not part of CDG yet but their prompt answers to all of my noob questions was very impressive.

It's interesting (and predictable) how the original poster is nowhere to be found, isn't it?

Vito

Originally posted by vito
It's interesting (and predictable) how the original poster is nowhere to be found, isn't it?

Vito

I meant to add that to my last post but hit the submit too fast and couldn't be bothered to edit but now that you mention it :)

Who were we talking about again?

:D

I'm currently looking for a good merchant account provider, any suggestions?










/sarcasm

Originally posted by Dixiesys
Oh duh yeah I should know that I got a merchant account through them MYSELF, so wonder what money he was screwed out of then?
It seems as if they may be holding some of the processed money? I have no clue though, and it's doubtful that this guy will be back to clarify or explain things... :rolleyes:

- Matt

Originally posted by cdgcommerce
There's also Jerry, Kathy, Sue, Ann, to name a couple. :)

While our company was indeed founded by Laura and myself back in '98, our dedicated team is truly what makes it all work smoothly on a daily basis.

And... thank you to everyone here for your kind words about our company, it is sincerely appreciated.

He mentioned my name :D

I have known Chris for a couple years. Even before working for him. To me it is an honor to work for CDG Commerce. He does take his customers interests at heart. Customer service is forefront in all our minds. I think he is only a small handfull of people I have ever known that works harder and puts more hours in than I do.

CDG is definately more then just one husband and one wife.

Jerry
CDG Commerce
Project Development, IT

I would like to ad my experiences with CDG Commerce. When I setup my hosting account and needed merchant services they were very helpful. My merchant account was setup within days. They also offered me all of the assistance that I needed to interface with the WhoisCart shopping cart. I highly recommend this company.

Originally posted by vito
It's interesting (and predictable) how the original poster is nowhere to be found, isn't it?

Vito
Hm, methinks y'all scared him away :stickout:

Well, from all of the posts I have seen over the last year here CDG would be our processor if we needed to move. We will most likely move to them at the end of this year when our contract ends with our current.

Please back up your post if you are going to bash people here, especially with someone that is so established.

Originally posted by madmerch
Do not use them. Well, I guess you have failed drastically in your effort to discredit a professional service provider. Furthermore, you have disappeared, and, I suspect strongly, have more than one id here as you admit to being here a long time and meeting him here, so I doubt this is suddenly your first post. I hope, however, it is your last under any id.

Hey this is like a game now.. I can see the cheer leaders now..

Give me a "C" Give me "G" .........

Funny side away... If the poster really felt that they had be conned then they would have posted back here...Wouldnt you if you really had been duped out of your hard earned cash!

Originally posted by 74s3
If the poster really felt that they had be conned then they would have posted back here...Wouldnt you if you really had been duped out of your hard earned cash! [/B]


I would if I had made a post like this. I intern would have left more information.

BTW you forgot Give me a "D" between the C and G :D

Don't know what to say that hasn't already been said. I don't think that it is disputed that Chris and Co. are a great bunch, but I do want to commend Chris' first response in this thread. Your professionalism truely shined through and I give you full credit for never letting us (your supporters) down.

As many people have noticed, I have fully recommended CDG in MANY MANY MANY threads. I don't recommend services I don't believe in 100% because when I refer people, I see it as a reflection of my own services. If they fail, so have I. If they succeed, well, you get the idea.

As already stated, I do believe your one-post thread has failed miserably in discreditting CDG. Ironically, all of the kind words have probably landed him a few new clients :) So, nice work :agree:

Well after reading all these posts...


I'M SOLD ON CDG!!

There is no such thing as bad publisity :)

Sorry.. yes i'm now holding a baord with "D" on it.. I'm also wearing a short skit :)

Originally posted by 74s3
Sorry.. yes i'm now holding a baord with "D" on it.. I'm also wearing a short skit :) Ah, I love these cryptic messages so early in the morning. :D

Don't tell me, I'll figure it out...

Vito

I don't think Chris could have asked for a better forum. Somebody posts an unfounded charge against the company. For the next 3 pages CDG gets nothing but praise for their service.

I signed up last month, and have only good experiences with them.

Originally posted by vito
<snip>

Don't tell me, I'll figure it out...

Vito You didn't see the picture? :rofl:

Originally posted by Watcher_TVI
You didn't see the picture? :rofl: What picture? :dunce:

Vito

You guys are certianly NOT getting a picture of me in a short shirt :)

well i suppose everything has a price...

Originally posted by Dacsoft
I don't think Chris could have asked for a better forum. Somebody posts an unfounded charge against the company. For the next 3 pages CDG gets nothing but praise for their service.

I signed up last month, and have only good experiences with them.

Not only that, i just signed up with them because of this thread!!

Maybe i should have put the thread starter down as a reference on my application!!

I think this thread has lived out its life, one fool tries to bad mouth a great company and gets 3 pages of hell for it....

Yeah really can't help but notice the thread starter hasn't been back, pretty obvious what this thread was all about. Glad to see I'm not the only one who had a awesome experience getting a merchant account with CDG :D

Well, I've got to say this: For customer service, they are absolutely great:

Took a couple times getting ahold of someone on the phone (all reps were busy, might want to look at that :P), but when I did, all questions were answered 100% thoroughly. If the guy I talked to wasn't 1000% sure, he looked it up so that he COULD be sure!

Application submitted last night (6pm)

Had a few problems getting submitted (for some reason fdf isn't a registered extension, ya'll might want to look at that, or see if there's another way to handle that :)), but I emailed and got a response back within 2 hours (after hours response = GREAT), got all the data submitted.

Got a call this afternoon verifying everything, asking me to verify this and that. THIS is a step that most people skip, they just process it all. To me, this adds a bit of a human touch.

Still waiting on the app results, but I don't expect immediate decisions on that, 24-48 hours is very reasonable ;)

Had a few problems getting submitted (for some reason fdf isn't a registered extension, ya'll might want to look at that, or see if there's another way to handle that ),

:( Sorry to here you had a few problems. FDF should have opened up your adobe.

but I emailed and got a response back within 2 hours (after hours response = GREAT), got all the data submitted.

:stickout: Yeah someof us are work aholics. Checking email while watching TV etc.

I went to CDG being totally inexperienced with merchant accounts, and although we had a few bumps getting going, I've been very happy with them. The other thing I am impressed with is that the owner will post helpful information here in the forum regularly.. to everyone, not just to his customers, and not just to promote his company. I'm sure there is a reason why the thread starter had a problem, and I'm sure he is very upset about it... but often the answers lie in the fine print and details which we will never know.

I have a CDG for when I visit asia, it works.

Originally posted by Incognito
Well, I guess you have failed drastically in your effort to discredit a professional service provider. Furthermore, you have disappeared, and, I suspect strongly, have more than one id here as you admit to being here a long time and meeting him here, so I doubt this is suddenly your first post. I hope, however, it is your last under any id.

Totally agreed! I am NOT a customer with CDG (as yet), although I have had preliminary discussions with Chris, who I might add, has been nothing but gracious and helpful, regarding my few issues.
After reading this thread, I am now also 100% sure that CDG is one of the best around, if not number one and I for one will NOT be looking any further for my business needs!

-Shareef

okay people, here are some details. I am not a raving lunatic with an axe to grind.

my original business model was providing e-commerce services, including the shopping cart, payment processing, inventory, shipping, etc. A one stop shop model similiar to companies like CDBaby, Merchdirect, Merchline, and so on. We also make merch for people. Our business model is clearly outlined on our website.

We have been with BofA Merchant Services since the business opened 2 years ago. I also used them for the hosting company I co-owned which processed over $350K per month with them. In December of 2003 we received a ton of fraudulant orders through our MadMerch account. We didn't know how to handle it so we called around to everyone from AuthNet, to BofA, to Visa to the FBI. We couldn't get a clear answer how to handle this situation. This type of thing was new to us. All we wanted was a clear procedure to follow. We never shipped the suspicious orders so most of these people didn't care. The FBI told us that they were swamped with Credit Card Fraud and so unless we actually lost money, they weren't in a position to do an investigation.

What BofA was not clear on was the chargeback handling procedure. Basically we allowed the chargebacks to go undisputed rather than refunding or crediting the fraudulant orders back immediately. There was absolutely no issue of any customer not receiving the products that they ordered or any other dispute of any kind.

BofA didn't notice right away so around March of 2004, they placed our Account on ACH hold. Actually, they placed both of my companies accounts on hold. The hosting company had about a 1% chargeback rate and also never had any disputes. I got a call from Risk Management and they wanted to know what the deal was with the chargebacks. We explained the situation, and he told us that we should have been refunding the money immediately. Okay well, that info would have been good back then.

Anyways, so he told me that he will release the hosting account but wanted to establish a reserve on the merch account. He told me he would be holding 50% of our transactions. I told him we could not afford to have that money held, we are a small company and we have a thin margin. He then reduced that amount to 25%.

We continued to use BofA and we implemented the refund immediately policy. In addition we added Fraudscreen to AuthNet and created a form for suspicious orders, asking them for a copy of their ID, a copy of the credit card used in the transaction and a signature.

When BofA initially contacted us our chargeback rate was 18%. All due to the December fraud we originally called about. Over the next three months we reduced the number to less than 2%.

BofA was still holding our money and we wanted it released and their Risk Mananagement Department was not returning our calls and not releasing the money, even though our chargeback rate was improving.

At this time, I started shopping around. I just couldn't afford to have any of our money held for any reason. That's when I met Chris. And yes, he was very helpful and friendly. That is why I chose him. And I apologize for the "husband wife company" comment. I really don't care about that as long as I am getting good service.

So the situation I explained to Chris was the above. I explained our business, provided all of our information, I completed the application, it was approved and we transferred our services to CDG.

As soon as BofA realized we were leaving, they immediately refunded our reserve account. We did not close the BofA account, mostly out of laziness and this saves us later.

What was not made clear to me at the time was that CDG was not the company holding my money, United Bank Card is. And they are in turn owned by Provident. CDG was like the customer service/ sales department but ultimately have no real say so about your account. United Bank Card, especially the Risk Management Department have multiple layers of workers, supervisors and managers. None of whom can approve or make a decision on anything. And if all else fails for them, they pass the buck to Provident and you get to start all over again.

With BofA, it was just BofA.

We processed with CDG for about 4 or 5 months and had a pleasant relationship. Our account was without incident. Our chargeback rate remained between 1% and 2%. We were a good customer.

I then entered into negotiations to purchase the merch company from my partners and during the transition, the bank accounts were on hold. Money was depositing but could not be withdrawn. United tried to deduct their monthly fee and when they couldn't, they placed our account on hold. They asked us to explain, we provided a letter, and they released the money.

A few days later, our account was placed on hold again. Risk Management contacted me and started asking questions about our business model. He told me that what I was doing was "factoring". I told him that factoring is completly different from what we are doing and cited the other companies already in this business. He told me that the account would be on hold until they investigate.

Once again our money was on hold. None of our good customer relationship mattered now. Risk Management must hire from Collection Departments because these people just don't care about you or your business and are not nice people. And they don't return phone calls.

So let me be clear, I would call Chris, he was friendly and would say he has to call United and I just would not get any answers. The buck just kept getting passed.

Then I got the call that my account was being closed.

I was told that my money would be refunded once I moved to the new processor. I did not doubt them, since they released it the last time.

So we called Card Service International. We explained all of the above to their sales department. We disclosed all fo the above to them as well. No problem they said, collected their $500 setup fee, 5 days of switching everything over.

I ask CDG/United for my money back. They tell me that they have decided to hold the money for 180 days. Why, I ask? Because you might be a risk. But you saw my record of low chargebacks. Sorry. and then the buck passing would commence.

Chris suggested I refund all of the money United was holding back to the cards using their merch settings and then rebill it on the new account. I followed his advice and not only did it create a customer service and accounting nightmare, it alerted Risk Management at Card Service International.

It also did not work and more money was processed and collected by United when we tried this illadvised manuever.

Card Service wanted to know why we had this transaction. I explained all of the above again. Well, we have to place your account on hold while we investigate. Fax us all of your order receipts for this batch.

I complied immediately but could not get through to anyone once I sent everything in. This went on for weeks.

We decided to immediately switch our settings back to BofA, because we didn't want to have any downtime.

So now our money is held at both United and Card Service.

Card Service has since refunded all of our money but United refuses. Card Service even had less processing history to base their decision on.

Their policy of 180 days is ridiculous. You can't return products to the store after 30 days and can't dispute charges on your credit card after 60 to 90 days. What is the extra 90 days for?

So I am still waiting to get my money back from United Bank Card and Chris and CDG aren't willing to take responsiblity for the fact that I was honest with them and if I was in violation of some rule they had, why was I approved? Worse yet, if I press them on returning the money, they tell me that I am lucky they don't put me on a TMF/Match list, which is the equivalent of an industry blacklist. They never actually threaten to put me on it but they make reference to it when I ask for the money.

Sure, Chris is a nice guy but he is a guy who sold me accountability and can not and has not delivered. He gave me the impression that he was the guy I could go to. Well now quite a few of our customers, who the money these companies are holding really belongs to, have left us and they want their money.

I had to invest a great deal of my own money because during these holds, there was no cash coming in to operate my business. I have to ship every day or I go out of business.

I explained all of this to Chris and United and Card Service and they didn't care or couldn't help.

So now I am with BoA and I am working with them to redevelop our business model to be compliant with their policies and Visa/Mastercard rules. They have been very helpful and have never had a problem with our business model. A good thing for BofA because we refer our customers to them for Processing Services.

I should have just stuck with them from the beginning.

So that's my reply people. Flame On.

Firstly let me say it sounds like you have had a hard time and I wish you best of luck with your business in the future.
Secondly:
Originally posted by madmerch

Their policy of 180 days is ridiculous. You can't return products to the store after 30 days and can't dispute charges on your credit card after 60 to 90 days. What is the extra 90 days for?

A consumer can issue a charge back up to six months after the intial charge.

I've used CDG for about 3 months and have never had problems with them. They have great support and for a "wife/husband" team they sure have great support.

This section is pulled from BofA's Visa Credit Card FAQ, regarding disputing charges on your card:

The Link: (evidentally I can't post the link until after 5 posts)

What if I think my credit card number is being fraudulently used?

Many times a single unauthorized charge is found to be a merchant error. Simply contacting the merchant might resolve the error quickly. However, if you think your credit card number is being fraudulently used, call customer service at 1.800.848.6090 as soon as possible. If you're calling from outside the U.S., call us collect at 1.757.677.4701. We'll cancel your card and issue a replacement immediately. You won't be liable for any unauthorized purchases or withdrawals from your account when you notify us promptly. If it's found that previous transactions were also fraudulent, you will not be liable for any of those purchases.

What's the claims process for fraudulent or unauthorized use?

In order to preserve your rights, we must receive a written notification from you within 60 days after Bank of America mailed you the first bill containing the error. This written request must include your signature. In your letter to us, document your contact with the merchant and include your name, address, account number, a description of the unauthorized charge(s) and copies of any documents supporting your position. Fax us at 1.800.290.9217 or mail your request to:

_____Bank of America
_____Consumer Claims Department
_____PO Box 1390
_____Norfolk, VA. 23501-1390

What do I do if I don't recognize the merchant listed on my statement?

Some merchants may bill under a name other than their operating name or in a different state. A copy of the sales slip may assist you in recognizing the charge as one that you authorized. If you still have questions about the transaction, please contact the merchant directly.

What's a credit card dispute?

A credit card dispute occurs when you question a particular transaction that you may believe is an error. Examples may include:

Charges that list the wrong date or amount
Duplicate charges
Charges for goods and services you didn't accept or weren't delivered as agreed
Failure to post credits, such as returns
Charges for which you ask for an explanation or written proof of purchase

You can submit a credit card dispute to us online. We'll research the transaction and contact you with a resolution. When you dispute a credit card transaction, no fees or interest will be incurred on the item. If a transaction has been posted to your account in error, we'll correct your account. If the transaction has not been posted in error, we'll inform you and any interest or fees occurring during the period will be charged to your account.

Note: Unauthorized transactions cannot be processed over the phone or online. We must have your signature before processing. See the process for claiming fraudulent or unauthorized use of your card.

Here is Amex: (ditto for the link here)

Q: What should I do if there is an error on my card statement?


A: You should notify the card issuer immediately, in writing, within 60 days after the first bill containing the error was mailed to you. In your letter include your name; account number; the type, date and amount of the error; and the reason why you believe the bill contains an error. In return, the card issuer must investigate the problem and either correct the error or explain to you why the bill is correct within two billing cycles and not later than 90 days after the issuer receives your notice of the billing error. You do not have to pay the amount in question during the investigation.

I believe you gonna get ur money back. just need to wait 6 months. you didnt do anything wrong.

and nothing wrong wiht ur biz model, dont understand why they ask you those stuff.

In general, cardholders have up to 180 days in most cases to issue a chargeback. In certain cases less, and in certain cases more as there can be variances from one issuer to another as well as the circumstances of a given situation.

But as a general rule of thumb - 180 days (6 months) is the norm and accepted as a standard for the industry.

It is important to keep in mind that the above is strictly speaking about Visa and MasterCard transactions... not Amex, Discover or any other non-bankcard transactions as the same rules do not apply to them.

To further correct & clarify on a few items... CDGcommerce is a registered ISO/MSP with Provident Bank. We have our own BIN heirarchy of merchant numbers that we deploy and service - this includes merchant, customer, technical and risk support.

Certain back office functions and certain accounts are handled on a shared-risk basis between our sponsor bank and back-end processor (UBC and Cardsystems, our settlement network).

Our many merchants can certainly attest to the fact that we have a very direct role in the handling of these matters and we are the source that they turn to for prompt help and resolution.

It is only in certain very extreme cases - such as a VISA/MC rules violation or significant loss situation - that the overriding authority can become that of the sponsoring bank / processor... and this was clearly one such case.

It is certainly very good to hear that MadMerch will be re-developing their business model to properly follow the Visa/MasterCard guidelines as this will enable them to grow and continue processing without these kinds of issues in the future.

If anything, this should serve as an example of the risks posed by any business that acts as a 3rd party processor or operates in a manner that could be subject to interpretation by a bank or processor as factoring.

Factoring is a serious violation of VISA/MC rules and regulations. Member Banks have a strict responsibility to adhere to these rules as do ISO/MSP's such as CDGcommerce and other merchant processors.

In fact, even some of the largest and most established 3PP's such as PaySystems have been asked to move away from their third party business model and to become direct merchant acquirers.

The fact that MadMerch has made the decision to adapt its business model in a similiar manner is certainly commendable and I think that it will serve them well moving forward with any processor(s) that they work with and avoid any further violations of MC/VISA operating rules & regulations on their part.

I sincerely wish them the best of success with their business moving forward.

After more research today, I still can not find any credit cards, VISA, MasterCard or otherwise, that allow for more than 60 days for a dispute. I would love to see an example so if one can be provided, that would be great but it is apparently not common. It would have to be an EXTREME case for a credit card to allow you to dispute anything beyond 90 days. I have tried and checked all of my credit cards and none of them were more than 60 days.

American Express and Discover, I also use for processing and I have NEVER had an issue with them. Once again, as with BofA, I deal direct with both Amex and Discover.

All of these problems seem to be with resellers of Visa/MasterCard establishing their own rules, with the ability to completely lock up a companies cash flow for just about any reason. If you happen to process double your normal volume in one day, you can bet you will get a call from Risk Management.

The only shared risk I have seen is between me and my customers. You control the money so there is not much chance of risk to you or United or Provident.

"Our many merchants can certainly attest to the fact that we have a very direct role in the handling of these matters and we are the source that they turn to for prompt help and resolution."

I'm sure that is true and you have had lots of defense on this board, which is admirable but my case is unique. I have always made every effort to follow all the rules. I would like to stay in business. I am not running a shady operation. I won't even accept sign ups for our service if I suspect that a company is violating any laws or may cause my company to be in violation of any laws. I accept full responsibility for my business and it's transactions as my low chargeback rates and no disputes can demonstrate.

If my business model was a Visa/MasterCard rules violator then who approved my account and why was it approved? If you approved the account, then you should take responsibility.

And when it was discovered that my account was in violation, how about some help in becoming compliant? After all, I was a good customer and I have over 100 accounts that could have potantially been customers of yours. Instead, my account was shut off, my money was held and I was treated very poorly, especially by United Bank Card.

My company does not factor. UBC's problem was we don't own the merch since we are shipping it for someone else but we hold the merch, we process the payment, we handle all customer service, including returns and credits and our bank account is the one that your company has the ability to debit, if there was ever a problem. In other words, I am assuming all of the risk and this should be no different than my corporate bank account. If a customer leaves, we do not release their product to them until all accounting has been recconciled.

So this commentis not fair:

"It is only in certain very extreme cases - such as a VISA/MC rules violation or significant loss situation - that the overriding authority can become that of the sponsoring bank / processor... and this was clearly one such case."

You state significant loss with VISA/MC rules violation as if I committed both. How could I be in violation, when I was approved? and there was no significant loss.

Becoming compliant meant word soup for the attorneys. Now we buy the products from our customers on terms and pay them back on a monthly basis as apposed to holding their merch, selling it for them and paying them on a monthly basis. Now we "own" the merch and everyone is happy. For our larger customers, we establish a merchant account for them and manage it on their behalf. It's the same thing people!

"If anything, this should serve as an example of the risks posed by any business that acts as a 3rd party processor or operates in a manner that could be subject to interpretation by a bank or processor as factoring."

Subject to Interpretation is the key statement here. Who's interpretation? And is that in the rule book? Someone might interpret my business model to not be in compliance while someone else, like you, felt that it was in compliance. Ultimately I paid the price because of your interpretation skills.

Our service is popular because e-commerce is complicated and Merchant Processors are a nightmare to deal with. Besides the fact that there are examples of our business model all over the internet. Are all of them in violation or did their MSP's "make an exception"?

You can bet that I will continue to press this issue. It appears to me that there is no regulation in this industry yet as it pertains to e-commerce transactions and that type of environment leads to corruption and misuse and it is always the little guy that suffers. I can clearly see that there is no effort or it is too overwhelming for credit card companies to deal with fraud and credit card misuse so they pass it on to businesses and consumers to bear the expense and risk. That information is courtesy of the FBI. Maybe this is a RICO issue?

I can understand holding a businesses money to ensure that the funds are good, similiar to a checking account but 180 days? How many businesses can afford to have their funds held for 180 days? And sure you CAN hold the money for 180 days but as Card Service International and BofA have demonstrated, it is a case by case basis and it is based on your record. Mine is clean so once again, what is the reason for the hold?

I guess time will tell how this works out.

Originally posted by madmerch
After more research today, I still can not find any credit cards, VISA, MasterCard or otherwise, that allow for more than 60 days for a dispute. I would love to see an example so if one can be provided, that would be great but it is apparently not common. It would have to be an EXTREME case for a credit card to allow you to dispute anything beyond 90 days. I have tried and checked all of my credit cards and none of them were more than 60 days.

American Express and Discover, I also use for processing and I have NEVER had an issue with them. Once again, as with BofA, I deal direct with both Amex and Discover.

All of these problems seem to be with resellers of Visa/MasterCard establishing their own rules, with the ability to completely lock up a companies cash flow for just about any reason. If you happen to process double your normal volume in one day, you can bet you will get a call from Risk Management.

The only shared risk I have seen is between me and my customers. You control the money so there is not much chance of risk to you or United or Provident.

"Our many merchants can certainly attest to the fact that we have a very direct role in the handling of these matters and we are the source that they turn to for prompt help and resolution."

I'm sure that is true and you have had lots of defense on this board, which is admirable but my case is unique. I have always made every effort to follow all the rules. I would like to stay in business. I am not running a shady operation. I won't even accept sign ups for our service if I suspect that a company is violating any laws or may cause my company to be in violation of any laws. I accept full responsibility for my business and it's transactions as my low chargeback rates and no disputes can demonstrate.

If my business model was a Visa/MasterCard rules violator then who approved my account and why was it approved? If you approved the account, then you should take responsibility.

And when it was discovered that my account was in violation, how about some help in becoming compliant? After all, I was a good customer and I have over 100 accounts that could have potantially been customers of yours. Instead, my account was shut off, my money was held and I was treated very poorly, especially by United Bank Card.

My company does not factor. UBC's problem was we don't own the merch since we are shipping it for someone else but we hold the merch, we process the payment, we handle all customer service, including returns and credits and our bank account is the one that your company has the ability to debit, if there was ever a problem. In other words, I am assuming all of the risk and this should be no different than my corporate bank account. If a customer leaves, we do not release their product to them until all accounting has been recconciled.

So this commentis not fair:

"It is only in certain very extreme cases - such as a VISA/MC rules violation or significant loss situation - that the overriding authority can become that of the sponsoring bank / processor... and this was clearly one such case."

You state significant loss with VISA/MC rules violation as if I committed both. How could I be in violation, when I was approved? and there was no significant loss.

Becoming compliant meant word soup for the attorneys. Now we buy the products from our customers on terms and pay them back on a monthly basis as apposed to holding their merch, selling it for them and paying them on a monthly basis. Now we "own" the merch and everyone is happy. For our larger customers, we establish a merchant account for them and manage it on their behalf. It's the same thing people!

"If anything, this should serve as an example of the risks posed by any business that acts as a 3rd party processor or operates in a manner that could be subject to interpretation by a bank or processor as factoring."

Subject to Interpretation is the key statement here. Who's interpretation? And is that in the rule book? Someone might interpret my business model to not be in compliance while someone else, like you, felt that it was in compliance. Ultimately I paid the price because of your interpretation skills.

Our service is popular because e-commerce is complicated and Merchant Processors are a nightmare to deal with. Besides the fact that there are examples of our business model all over the internet. Are all of them in violation or did their MSP's "make an exception"?

You can bet that I will continue to press this issue. It appears to me that there is no regulation in this industry yet as it pertains to e-commerce transactions and that type of environment leads to corruption and misuse and it is always the little guy that suffers. I can clearly see that there is no effort or it is too overwhelming for credit card companies to deal with fraud and credit card misuse so they pass it on to businesses and consumers to bear the expense and risk. That information is courtesy of the FBI. Maybe this is a RICO issue?

I can understand holding a businesses money to ensure that the funds are good, similiar to a checking account but 180 days? How many businesses can afford to have their funds held for 180 days? And sure you CAN hold the money for 180 days but as Card Service International and BofA have demonstrated, it is a case by case basis and it is based on your record. Mine is clean so once again, what is the reason for the hold?

I guess time will tell how this works out. 180 days is an industry standard for holding money to deal with chargebacks after an account has been closed with the merchant provider. A user on these boards had an issue with PayPal, as they insisted on holding the funds for 180 days to deal with chargebacks. It's not just a CDG/UBC issue. We've never had any issues

-Josh

You probably won't find it online madmerch. That is not a selling point for consumers. But as many people have already stated - 180 days IS the industry standard. And just because it is standard - that does not mean that some issuers have different rules.

Check out: http://www.i4commerce.com/faq_exceptions.html#q4 as one website that cites the chargeback rule. 180 days is usually the maximum that some issuing banks have on deciding whether or not to issue a chargeback.

It is not the CC processor's responsibility to maintain a database of each issuing bank & their rules as far as chargebacks. It is hard enough to keep up with just the BIN numbers.

Okay, but my questions is: Why 180 days if I can not dispute charges on my own credit cards after 60 days?

Also, there is this taken from the link provided by coreybryant:

"Generally, about 1 in 200 to 1 in 500 approvals are found to be fraudulent after the initial approval."

That means that if I ship my average orders of about 600 per month, there is a possibility that 1 or two are fraudulent. Our average transaction is $45. UBC is holding $8,000. That means that 177 orders would have to be returned to justify that hold.

Well with your type of business, your fraud rate is higher. You also stated yourself that you had a number of transactions which raised red flags. There is a lot of money lost every year because merchants set up an account to process a lot of fradulent cards. The processors are going to take care of themselves.

And once again, it depends on the issuing bank to determine what they want to do on handling chargebacks. You cannot just go by your own credit card.

Originally posted by madmerch
Okay, but my questions is: Why 180 days if I can not dispute charges on my own credit cards after 60 days?


While 60 days may be mentioned in your credit card issuers terms, that does not mean it is only restricted by that. Depending on the transaction type, you in some cases have more than 60 (or even 180) days to file a dispute.

Likewise, there are some transactions certain banks will not allow you to dispute, such as "quasi-cash" transactions. Those are transactions that are equivelant to cash advances, but are not taken from an ATM. Certain gift-cards and wire services such as western union can fall under this. One particular issuer will not dispute hotel charges if you were dissatisfied with the room unless you checked out within 30 minutes of checkin. Little things like this make the dispute process a variable one.

Banks are required to adhere to a certain level of disute procedures per their agreements with Visa/MC, but many actually offer more than the minimum guidelines.

To further clarify on a few points:

It would have to be an EXTREME case for a credit card to allow you to dispute anything beyond 90 days.

That is not correct. This kind of chargeback happens EACH and EVERY day. I personally look at our daily risk reports and try to look over the chargeback reports and there are chargebacks on merchants that stem back 2,3,4,5 and 6 months.

The mere fact that one particular issuer doesn't extend your chargeback privileges/protection for more than 60 days certainly doesn't mean that ALL others follow the same - this is simply not the case.

American Express and Discover, I also use for processing and I have NEVER had an issue with them. Once again, as with BofA, I deal direct with both Amex and Discover.

As I mentioned earlier, Amex and Discover always work directly with merchants. They fund directly, they deal directly and they have entirely different rules and regulations pertaining to their operations.

None of what we are discussing here has any bearing or anything to do with Amex & Discover, but rather just Visa/MC and solely Visa/MC.

All of these problems seem to be with resellers of Visa/MasterCard establishing their own rules, with the ability to completely lock up a companies cash flow for just about any reason.

Visa/MasterCard are associations of Member Banks. Visa/MC is not a "service" that is "resold" but rather the entire nature of it is distributed over Member Banks that issue cards under the Visa/MC brand names... and Member Banks that acquire transactions on behalf of merchants who accept the card.

Member Banks contract with registered ISO/MSP's like CDGcommerce who register with Visa, MasterCard and a sponsor bank and who are subjected to a detailed financial audit and comprehensive registration process.

Both Member Banks and ISO/MSP's are required to follow very specific Visa/MC guidelines and rules with respect to how accounts are handled. Companies do not "make up their own rules" although specific policies on certain areas may vary from one to another.

The only shared risk I have seen is between me and my customers. You control the money so there is not much chance of risk to you or United or Provident.

This is absolutely and entirely incorrect. There is substantial risk that exists to acquirers like CDGcommerce, Provident, etc. and that is inherent to the merchant processing business.

Any sales that are charged back and not covered by a merchant or collected from any guarantor(s)... must be paid by the ISO and/or the Member Bank. And this exact kind of loss situation happens on a daily basis, across the country.

More than a few ISO's in the past have gone out of business and lost millions of dollars in the merchant processing industry. Every ISO runs into the occasional risk situation and everyone tries to mitigate that risk as best they can.

The goal is to try to first mitigate the risk due to merchant fraud on the front-end by screening merchants carefully. Then, on the back-end it is important to monitor merchant's processing activity and to flag suspicious or potentially problematic activity when it does incur. Often times, these types of risk issues are resolved very quickly with simple clarifications.

Sometimes, they represent more serious situations. I've seen many, many examples first hand over the years. Fraudulent merchants who steal people's identities, merchants who sign up for one service and then offer an entirely different one, merchants who start off fine and then turn into 100% chargebacks (fraud) after 60-90 days after running through a load of stolen cards. We had one merchant recently who turned out to be fraudulent after nearly 4 months of a clean track record, as just one example of many.

Sometimes it isn't even that "high risk" merchant... but the local furniture store that has been in the neighborhood for 20 years that goes belly up. Or the high flying business that is just cruising at full speed - only to have the owner tragically killed in a car accident or another situation like that and then the business folds.

Thus, there is very real and very tangible risk that exists in merchant processing. Anyone who argues that this is not the case would be well advised to talk to some of the former owners of ISO's that went belly up due to taking too many losses and not monitoring their risk closely enough.

Originally posted by cdgcommerce
To further clarify on a few points:

It would have to be an EXTREME case for a credit card to allow you to dispute anything beyond 90 days.

That is not correct. This kind of chargeback happens EACH and EVERY day. I personally look at our daily risk reports and try to look over the chargeback reports and there are chargebacks on merchants that stem back 2,3,4,5 and 6 months.

The mere fact that one particular issuer doesn't extend your chargeback privileges/protection for more than 60 days certainly doesn't mean that ALL others follow the same - this is simply not the case.


I just ate a chargeback this morning from 2checkout that went back 5 months for 4 monthly payments those $29 fees hurt :( Wish we'da been given an option to just issue a refund but nope, chargeback with no warning.

Looks like you taken a hit from both PaySystems and 2CO recently, Gary. Hopefully your transfer to your merchant account is going well. It was the best thing I ever did....moving away from 2CO that is.

And here we are talking about 180 day risks - some types of transactions are even longer, I believe. I.e. travel.

ddent is correct. I was in a meeting this past week with one of the founders of Echo-Inc. He was telling me about some issuing banks & some circumstances in which the chargeback period is 365 days.