I am currently the owner of a DSL company here in Kingwood, TX and moving north to New Caney, TX, we have over 5,000 clients and growing and we are going into the hosting bandwagon.

Our new DataCenter is not completely built and is about 50% done and I made the blue prints and help from an architect to achieve this and it is going to look good :) Will post pictures when it is completely done by February 2002.

Ok, I am here with my budget book and I took out a sheet a paper and looked out to see all the cheapest webhost I can find. Like

valuablehost.com
hostyard.com
hostiva.com
and webstrikesolutions.com and I was amazed at the prices they put down.

I set apart the prices on how much I waste per customer per year if at mininum if I offered them this:

100MB SPACE
5 GIG TRANSFER
5 SUBDOMAINS
1 mySQL
Plesk 2.0 and all of its little features
15 e-mail accounts

---on this I calculated on a 1Ghz server with 1 Gig RAM with a 20 Gig HD
---added also the cost of merchant fees
---cost of scripts we buy for automation and such other goodies

I say we waste $9.625/year per customer. This is if we do not pay our tech support representatives. Now we all gotta make a buck here, and I just can't fit in my head how people are giving hosting for $20-$30-$40/year!
And I can afford to loose 10 bucks a year per customer, but this is just IF we can keep our DSL customers and Hosting subscribers EVEN. Maybe getting 200 new hosting-clients a month, we can survive with 10 bucks from the customer, but this is bare mininum!!!

How does webstrike soultions give free hosting for 12 months? Are they FastHosts or DonHosts reselllers that soon they will screw their poor customers, this is not right! Argh, my head hurts......

How do you all do this? How?!

Well back to the paperwork, I wonder if I did this math correct.

my question to you is how do you get all your numbers? Don't forget, when people sign up for 3gb plan, they may only use 200mb transfer, (like me). Let's take $36 per year for example. 200 3gb plan users, you get about $400 per month, but you are not paying 600GB transfer. It may only need 50GB in total.

Yap, thats correct..
Like me, I move from free to pay hosting and i purchased 10G transfer coz i thought my heavy traffics site will reach 10-15G a month.. but when i found out, its only 1.5G.
Dang! I should get the cheapest package then :(

Thats called playing the numbers game and, unfortunately, is used too often in the hosting biz.

What happens if most of the 200 customers do use their 3Gb?

You haven't paid for the 600Gb, so you're screwed. If you are using this kind of business plan, maybe its working for you just now, but trust me, sometime in the future, you'll wish that you hadn't. This is one of the reasons why the hosting biz turnaround is so great - all these new companies that want to make a quick buck by offering something that they can't provide and end up screwing the customers.

A business model based on the numbers game is not sound at all.

Just my tupence worth :)

Originally posted by Locutus
Thats called playing the numbers game and, unfortunately, is used too often in the hosting biz.

What happens if most of the 200 customers do use their 3Gb?

You haven't paid for the 600Gb, so you're screwed. If you are using this kind of business plan, maybe its working for you just now, but trust me, sometime in the future, you'll wish that you hadn't. This is one of the reasons why the hosting biz turnaround is so great - all these new companies that want to make a quick buck by offering something that they can't provide and end up screwing the customers.

A business model based on the numbers game is not sound at all.

Just my tupence worth :)


I agree. However, there is room for a bit of "overselling". Its when the hosting companies oversell TOO much is when they run into trouble.

--Tina

The theory of very cheap web hosting is this:

Lose a little on each customer, get many customers. Thru the magic of addition, first thing you know, you've turned a small loss into a very substantial one.

For further details of this method, study the recent practices of some U.S. industries, like airlines and farming.

I want to make sure that we're all talking about the same thing.

We have hosting packages starting at $25 per year - but we do NOT oversell our resources. We offer a decent amount, but not an insane amount of space/bandwidth.

When you say "cheap" - I take that to mean a company that offers 100 MB of space and 5 GB bandwidth per month...for $25 per year.

Our business plan has worked very well for the past several years and our reputation is very much intact.

This is not a pat on the back for me...I'm just saying that be careful when you lump all "cheap" hosts into the same pile.

--Tina

Power is in numbers. Offering discounted rates say at $4.95 per account and having 250 - 500 of those types of accounts per box works. Here we have divide our hosting accounts per, not the type of account, but the content type. If you have 500 accounts, all with < 25 html pages then putting 500 accounts is nothing for the web server. On the other hand if you have 250 accounts all using things like ASP or CF or PHP then placing and proportioning those accounts will better drive your cost to profit range. Having software like we do helps this process and reduces our costs for billing and technical support. Since everything is really automated we can spend less on a physical hands and more on important things like customer support.

Not all profit is made in hosting either. I would say the best way to lower your cost on cheep hosting is to do stuff like value-add services and add some type of relationship to all of your clients. It's not the usual "today's" tactics if you will but I think in the long run people will recognize that the hosts that take the time to work on simple basic client needs will by far succeed.

Just my 2¢.

One Dollar Hosting has a great way make money, offering cheap hosting at 1 dollar a month.

They turn off half of there servers every other day to preserve bandwidth.

Oh and you have to pay in full for the year with no refunds. The 12 bucks was not hard to loose its the $50 or $75 setup fee.

Mike

well i guess if you have no over head and manage everything by yourself then you can afford to offer cheap hosting

I understand everything you all said, but I can't just give 10/year to a customer for webhosting, as I do see some people do.
I mean bandwith is no problem, we need something to fill in these gaps and it seems our DSL customers aren't filling up the whole pipe. But we only have 9 people employed and our Data Center is almost finished which this is suppose to be a 2 million dollar project and we still have alot of money left over. Right now we are recieving all the PC parts and we are going to set this saturday to start building the servers. I am going right now trying the most cheapest and most efficient way as possible for the customer and us. But I still have to argue about what the pricing is going to be set. I should do it the scientifical way, toss a coin.

If you are overselling, make sure you do the calculations right so that in case *all* of your customers use *all* of your bandwidth, you still cover your expenses and have some income.

hum, i dont see what you mean

yes what i provide for 8 dollars does'nt leave much margin up for tons of profits

but i figure if i offer at such a good deal i can get lots of customers and more servers and the more customers you have a only a few dollars profit a month the more make and the bigger customer database you have :)

and if you really provide what you say you will and not some scheme like most of the big company's do then your whole operation shouldn't turn sour.

the only problem i have is i have spent the money on this server and the monthly fee

now i'm in debt, and i dont have all the big bucks for advertising, so i have to wait get some customers then maybe i will be able to advertise.

oh and if you do host make sure you offer a 30 day money back guarantee lots of customers want somthing to rely on if they dont like your service for some reason :)

i offer this because i can offer good service, therefore if they are'nt happy then its some reason i would'nt know about lol

anyhow nuff said

from, Zac Holley

btw if you own a big pipe already you have the bandwidth price covered, so basically you have the price of a server and you are talking about 500-1000 dollars for a topend server , harddrive, case, cpu, mobo, ram, linux free hehe

so i dont understand how you can't make a profit off of this.

I know I can make easy profit of this easy. But I want to be well, seems a little bad, the cheapest and best hosting company right now out there....I can hold that medal :)

The heat is on :)

(I am just trying to be sarcastic, hope you get that poing, I do not want to bet bashed right away, heh)

Man I had a big long drawn out schematic and excel spreadsheet for how I'm gonna retire in 3 months, and I clicked a link in Outlook Express and it went away and I don't wanna retype it.

So.. I sell cheap, I keep over head cheap, my servers, my phone lines, uhm, that's about it.

Home office, county address (no business license needed for "services") though I will incorporate soon, it's the smart thing to do, I won't make enough profits to have a huge tax burden (doubt I'll even see much past the high side of the poverty line hehe).

Monthly expenses are around $300-$400 for 3 full servers, assuming 150 sites per server (I hear of people shoving 300-500 per server, with what, a CROWBAR?) then for 3 full servers I'll make about 1200-1400 after expenses a month.

The best part is, I can wear my underwear to work, nap between tech support calls, and shave once a week, watch cartoons with my son, actually be there for his firsts (first step was not long ago), take the cordless phone out to the pool and lounge during the summers (wireless lan + laptop + cordless phone = tech support anywhere in the yard or pool area and a good portion of the block).

It's all about priorities :)

That is sweet stuff there Dixiesys....the Utopian-Life

(no business license needed for "services")??????!?

Really? I thought you did....

Originally posted by zdwebhosting
hum, i dont see what you mean

yes what i provide for 8 dollars does'nt leave much margin up for tons of profits

but i figure if i offer at such a good deal i can get lots of customers and more servers and the more customers you have a only a few dollars profit a month the more make and the bigger customer database you have :) ...


zdwebhosting... read my sig

yea priorites are good,

i am young, still in highschool know more than all the computer teachers hehe

but anyhow i am on the computer all the time after school

i'm in cisco networking at the tech school near by to get my ccna and i would like to get my cwa or whatever the certified webmaster one is ,

but, seems my dad does'nt want me to get an after school job and i love computers so much i figured i could provide awesome tech support being online so much

and make a great business :)

the only prob is advertising , so many hosts most of them are fakes that just resell accounts and there is no way to tell , somone asks if i'm a reseller i say no, but i'm sure lots of resellers lie but anyhow

from, Zac Holley

one_web

i read your post

but what exactly are you meaning by it?

and i dont plan to put 200 users on one of my servers :)

No this is what I mean.

but i figure if i offer at such a good deal i can get lots of customers and more servers and the more customers you have a only a few dollars profit a month the more make and the bigger customer database you have

You say that you would like a big customer database even if it means to make less money.

Now what I say (well chicken really said it) is that if you have 200 customers charging them $2 per month you will have the same revenue if you have 20 customers paying $20 per month. So it will be better and safer for you to deal with 20 people then to deal with 200 just to say I have 200 customers. You will not have that many customers as the "el cheapo" host but you will have the same revenue with fewer headaches.

I fully agree with one_web on that one (actually with the almighty Chicken).

It is much easier to support 25 people paying $20/mo than it is 100 people paying $5/mo. And even better: your chances of getting hassle-free customers is much greater with the more expensive plan than with the cheaper plan. Host-Hoppers go from cheap host to cheap host. People who go for the more expensive route tend to stick around and understand more. Kinda funny how that works. :)

Originally posted by one_web
No this is what I mean.



You say that you would like a big customer database even if it means to make less money.

Now what I say (well chicken really said it) is that if you have 200 customers charging them $2 per month you will have the same revenue if you have 20 customers paying $20 per month. So it will be better and safer for you to deal with 20 people then to deal with 200 just to say I have 200 customers. You will not have that many customers as the "el cheapo" host but you will have the same revenue with fewer headaches.


Love your, I mean Chickens theory....we should make that a law, like Mole's Law

Originally posted by Shiekron
That is sweet stuff there Dixiesys....the Utopian-Life

(no business license needed for "services")??????!?

Really? I thought you did....

Well I live in the city limits, called the (heck who is it,license commissioner? heck can't remember) and they wanted like $400 for a license and since it was " a business in my home " (my servers are at Rackshack in Texas, it's not like I have a big banner in the trees in my front yard advertising hosting) that I'd have to come to the city clerk and ask for a zoning approval ($110 petition fee) to get permission to run a business in my home and that they're not guaranteed to give me approval. (wtf so I can sit at my computer and talk on my phone all day?).

So.. I have a county address too, with an honest to goodness office, lights and everything! Called the county office said "I'm starting a web hosting and internet access company, what license do I need" they said "uhm, is that a service or are you selling tangible goods" I said "I guess that's a service" so they said "dont' need no license for services" I said "I LOVE YOU" and hung up, or something like that.

So I work from home :) it's called telecommuting, no license needed for that!

In response to the thread topic, why are you worried that people have hosting for under $10/year? I'm not.

If you can't compete with that price, why even try?

You should figure out a plan where you make a decent profit.

There will always be something cheaper and there will always be something more expensive. Look for weakness in those cheaper plans and provide added value to your offerings and become a better host.

Well you have to remember, that right now, i'd say 80-90% of those cheap hosts are still a one man operation, with a very cheap dedicated server and one phone line.

Now, lets take Dixiesys, not to criticise his life, which yes, its a good life when you have a few hundred customers and its just you running it and you only have a few hundred customers.

Ok so lets use the math that Dixiesys gave us..

Monthly expenses are around $300-$400 for 3 full servers, assuming 150 sites per server (I hear of people shoving 300-500 per server, with what, a CROWBAR?) then for 3 full servers I'll make about 1200-1400 after expenses a month.

Ok , 150 sites per server, for 3 servers thats 450 sites, and for all intensive purposes 450 clients, now, He probabbly gets a decent amount of support queries from them, but now lets double that, we go from 450 clients to 900 clients, across 6 servers with a revenue of only 2400 - 2800 a month, ok thats not a bad income, but lets triple the origional number, 1,350 clients, across 9 servers thats an income of 3,600 a month to 4200 a month.
Now we've just lost all our free time, stuck at the computer for 18 hours a day , getting woke up with support emergencies having a hard time keeping up with billing, maybe having a few issues with one of the servers.... so now you decide to go hire extra help. Well then you realize that extra help is not going to work as hard as you did nor work as many hours as you did but you still feel the need to have that extra help.

Well now we've got to get a business liscense and make sure were all a-ok because we've got to hire people now....
So you go find a decent support tech which will run you about 2000 to 2500 a month, so now your back down to 1600 - 1700 a month income after expenses. But now we forgot to factor in the cost of offering phone support to our customers... so we've got to add a several hundred dollar a month phone support bill on there, considering your hired help is not going to pay their phone bill, so lets just say the hired help is on the phone with customers half of his day, so thats 4 hours a day, 5 days a week , 4 weeks a month, so 80 hours a month, now lets figure relatively cheap at 5cents a min (were assuming you provide an 800#, if not these figures could be removed) so now you (and your tech) each rack up a 240 dollar phone bill. (remember your still working the 10 or so hours that he doesn't) so thats another 480 a month to remove from revenue. down to 1,120 - 1,220 a month income after expenses.....

I'm not saying a business modle like that won't work. But your still in the early stages of a very long game soto speak. I've ran and built or helped to build 6 seperate webhosting companies over the past 6 years, so i've seen it all, even helped run one of those unlimited companies, but that changed :).

So in the beginning yes, it seems like your doing pretty good and making ok money, but factor in additional support and extra clients needs. Now this of course won't happen over night (althou if you get popular it very well can happen quickly).

You also have to figure in training your new help in how you do things as well, and the potential of having to replace that new help because they don't work out very well........

Thinking of a buisness without really planning its future itns't very good...... well at least in my opinion anyway :)

Why do most hosts just think throwing up a dedicated server and slapping on customers is going to work? I mean get real it takes time effort and putting yourself back into the company. Hell I've been working on our iControl product for two years. It OUR OWN CONTROL PANEL built from scratch. It handles all of our billing, tech support, account activations, and advanced control panel settings.

Now tell me that's why we can't remain a 'low cost' host, hell we hardly have any technical support issues comming in and account issues we don't have to worry about practically EVERYTHING is automated ... thus removing human error. Hell, we've got guys playing video games in the game room most of the time.

Arggg, just letting of a little steam. It seems that small time hosts create larger problems for the industry. Of course this isn't directed to anyone on this thread. Make assumptions like we're a one man company because we offer hosting under $5 bucks is hardly the truth but for some I guess it is.

Sometimes it makes sense to not grow as big... bigger is definitely not always better.

If somebody is working a daytime job making $2500 a month and can covert this to working at home making $2500, that is not a bad idea.

So if they can maintain (not grow) their client base, and don't get greedy, they should be OK, even when charging low monthly fees.

I guess there are two type of companies that can charge low fees. They are either very small or very big ;)

Yes there are tons of "cheap hosts" out there. There were even more last month. These "cheap hosts" are dropping from the face of the Earth one by one. Same thing in the ISP market. You get what you pay for.

i am young, still in highschool know more than all the computer teachers hehe

When you are young and still highschool, is exactly the time you know more than everyone else. That is the law of the nature!

I mean no disrespect to young people :stickout but nowadays, it seems most new "cheap hosts" that are created without a sound business plan and offer the world for nothing are owned by these school kids. Apart from the rare few that are good, the rest of these webhost wannabes are the ones that are ruining this business for the rest of us. This, imho, totally sux. There should be a law or something in the US stating that you have to be a certain age to do business.

In the UK, if you aren't over 18, you're not going to get very far i.e No business bank account, no credit or debit card, can't register your company, no support from business enterprises etc Everything would have to be done through your parents. Not very professional is it :D

Whats the age in the US to have all this though? 13? 14? sheesh :(

I highly doubt you could get by creating a host by that age. Or if you do the service would be actually terrible. I think of those hosts as the ones that still use PayPal for credit card processing, give me a break! Although these hosts can be weeded out easily there are still some that are ran by very young persons using their partners credit to get by, or at least I would think.

Simple things to help rule out these types of hosts are how the business is built, meaning do they a corporate standing or just some cheep DBA sole proprietorship license as well as location and type of persons on the team.

Even said though I'm sure some people finds whys to get around the system but as one person posted on this forum they won't survive long.

<rant>
I do not see why 13/14 year olds are getting such bad rap around here. Why should we be forced to wait untill we're 18 to start a business. It really just steams me up when 14 year old becomes a derogatory term. I know of a web hosting company that was started by a 14 year old and is close to being they're 2nd year in business. Also when a 14 year old trys to help out people by telling info, they are looked at as "know it alls", but when an adult does it, they're being helpful and sharing knowledge. Alot of people do not give Teenagers the respect they should be given. Why does age matter so much, when maturity matters more. And I've seen some 13 year olds more mature than 21 year olds..... And now adays with the pc teenagers ARE getting smarter than they're computer teachers at school, or maybe its just the school teachers are getting less smart and knowledgeable about the field they teach, I don't know. Teenagers may not have the business experience but you have to start somewhere, they may very well have the technical knowledge. Truth is teenagers should be give more rights, and make it easier for teenagers to make money. Alot of businesses require you to be over 18 to work their and to start you're own business it takes a lot of parental involvement. Teenagers should have the right to start a business or be employeed to make money so they can have a jumpstart into the real world.
</rant>

That concludes my rant...

I don't think anyone is putting a bad rap on 13/14 years necessarily but the fact that companies that are ran by persons of such age USUALLY don't have the knowledge to do such. Sure they may be technically inclined but I highly doubt their business skills are as such.

Take your care for instance, how many of you would trust a tune up on your car with a person of such age, say he came to your door one day with that offer? Now I'm sure that a lot of persons that age can do that, hell maybe even better and faster than some older persons but still the fact remains that most will not trust their company website to such a person let alone their car.

Again though this all depends on the person or client. Let them do what they want. If a kid of that age is doing well who here has the right to say otherwise.

If you don't let a teenager fix you're car, purely because hes a teenager, is that nothing more than discrimination. What is the difference in that than turning down a black person because he's black, or a islamic person because of their religion?

Originally posted by Tetraboy
If you don't let a teenager fix you're car, purely because hes a teenager, is that nothing more than discrimination. What is the difference in that than turning down a black person because he's black, or a islamic person because of their religion? Because I can't sue that kid if he destroys my car:rolleyes:

SoftWareRevue :stickout.

Come on people this thread is loosing focus. Didn't you read the last of my post Tetraboy ... if someone wants to host with a younger person ... who cares! The point was that a kid of that age PROBABLY can't run a business as someone with more experience ... those who reply to this as descrimination or such are just plain missing the point!

Go ahead let your car be fixed by some 13/14 hell why not have them employeed in the hospitals ... geeez :eek:

I think the hospital reference is a better choice. You have to be 18 before you can enter med school :D

I certainly wouldn't want a teenage GP. Hell, I wouldn't even like a 25 year old (unless their female :D ). One word comes to mind in this profession, the webhosting profession and probably any other profession - EXPERIENCE. It doesn't matter how good you think you are, or probably are, it means nothing in the real world if you don't have experience, and a teenager most definetely won't have business experience. I'm doing a Masters in business management just now as I want to have a sound business background.

Originally posted by Locutus
I think the hospital reference is a better choice. You have to be 18 before you can enter med school :D


Did you never watch the show dougie houser? That kid doctor? :D

TV...

Originally posted by Tetraboy
or maybe its just the school teachers are getting dummer
No comment. Chances are, students will know more about one thing or another than a teacher, but you only think you are smarter, trust me. When you get to be 30, you won't share the opinion that 13 year olds are the brilliant minds you think they are.

I don't know. Teenagers may not have the business experience but you have to start somewhere, they may very well have the technical knowledge. Truth is teenagers should be give more rights, and make it easier for teenagers to make money. Alot of businesses require you to be over 18 to work their and to start you're own business it takes a lot of parental involvement. Teenagers should have the right to start a business or be employeed to make money so they can have a jumpstart into the real world.
And what age should this be? You see, the same argument can be made for getting you driver's license. Truth be told, on your 16th birthday, you are not magically able to drive a car better than when you were 15 and 363 days. But there has to be a cut-off date somewhere and it has been decided. Are there 14 year olds who could drive better than a 25 year old, if given the chance? Most likely.

You can say teenagers should be given a chance... -but they are, at age 18.

What happened to this being about those lousy stinking good for nothing two dollar whores.

A lot of the "lousy stinking good for nothing two dollar whores" are these exact ppl. Not all, but a lot of them are :)

Originally posted by Locutus
A lot of the "lousy stinking good for nothing two dollar whores" are these exact ppl. Not all, but a lot of them are :)
Yeah, but how many of them are damn proud of it like me? *ring* 'scuse me, I gots to go, dat wuz mine's pimp

:pimp: < BC

Originally posted by Tetraboy
maybe its just the school teachers are getting dummer

Ignoring the self-inconsistent nature of that final word (a word of which OED suggests deprecating[1] in favour of of "speach-impaired"), I think you'll find that it is more properly spelt with a "b" in place of the second "m".

Originally posted by Chicken
Chances are, students will know more about one thing or another than a teacher, but you only think you are smarter, trust me.

Usage and spelling aside, however, I must agree with Tetraboy that some (most?) teachers are not exactly paragons of intellect (present company excepted, of course). Having been in the odd position of taking high school courses in some fields while simultaneously teaching high school teachers in a different field, I must say that many teachers demonstrably lack an understanding of the material which they are expected to teach, even when they are only teaching 8th or 9th grade courses.
I think that if teachers were required to, every few years, write an examination in the course(s) they were teaching, the results would be quite frightening, while the standard of teaching would improve immeasurably.

[1] OED doesn't seem to include the modern usage of "deprecated". How odd. Oh well, it should be in when the next edition comes out in 2010.

Well imho the do-it-yourselvers with their $ 2.- hosting didn't exactly ruin the market. They made us more sharper and competitive.

Bigger companies now have to look at their prices and can no longer charge $ 19.95 per month for a small site as they used to do some years ago.

Compare it with domainnames if you want. Can you get away with charging $ 35.- per year for a domainname these days?

So in the end it is in the consumers interest. It made prices go down.

As for hosting companies run by children (yes, hate me for it, but if you are 12/13 yrs old you are a child) you can't blame them. If people want to be hosted by them that is their decision. I wouldn't, but that is personal.

I remember seeing an add banner once for a hosting company. There was a picture on it of this happy 9-10 yr old kid and the text beside it was something like "would you have your company run by this guy?" Pointing ofcourse to the fact that websites are an important part of each business these days and how well it looks/performs does rub off on your company. Yet some companies choose to let that part of their business be run by a 10 year old. Kinda like hiring a ten yr old systems administrator...

One last comment. I read some remarks about 12-14 yr olds having the knowledge to run a hosting company. Probably. But knowledge doesn't get you much. Life experience is something you gain over the years and is more important then anything you learn in school. At the age of 12 you don't even know what real life is. Enjoy it while it lasts :D

Flame me now ;)

I can understand where Chicken and Tetraboy are coming from. In someways teachers can be a little rusty or not as knowledgable on something that the student has spent 6 hours straight on for months. But overall the teacher usually knows more... I have had some teachers who really didn't fully comprehend things related to that subject but I've also had pretty smart teachers.

As far as computing goes, I've also has ultra smart ones and some just teaching without a great interest in computers and therefore less knowledgable. For the most part teens don't have nealy the knowledge of computers that professionals in the business do. Some may get the false impression that they do because of their ability to use ordinary pc's with ease and the fact that they are infact 10-20x better then there parents.

In actuality both of the popular home/school platforms are created by the average technically inept user. Using them with seemingly high expertise is nothing special. Ask one of those kids to configure bind for example without all those X config utilities :).

Usually around when they are 17-19 they realize, OH I'm such and idiot, I don't know ANYTHING! I'm in actuality only 17 years old and I have a web class where there are all these confident freshmens come in and by the time they're through with the week they realize that they're really not that "smart." Mostly because they see me :). I wonder what would happen when they see even more experienced people (i'm still an amateur, possibly sub-amateur if there is such a thing)...

The medical thing is a good example... Getting the knowledge to operate on someone is a lot different than learning to run linux. You cant just say "oops I let you bleed to death let me reinstall and try again", most 14 year olds probably dont have access to whats required to learn medicene.

eek: It's not just about learning software or learning how to cut people open and operate them correctly. It's all about running a business... sure if they screw up their system my fellow "younger" teens will be fine.

BUT if they do this on a server that is used for business and somehow get 100 of their clients down for a couple of hours it can be just as painful.

Originally posted by cperciva
Usage and spelling aside, however, I must agree with Tetraboy that some (most?) teachers are not exactly paragons of intellect (present company excepted, of course). Having been in the odd position of taking high school courses in some fields while simultaneously teaching high school teachers in a different field, I must say that many teachers demonstrably lack an understanding of the material which they are expected to teach, even when they are only teaching 8th or 9th grade courses.
I think that if teachers were required to, every few years, write an examination in the course(s) they were teaching, the results would be quite frightening, while the standard of teaching would improve immeasurably.[/B]
I can't really go into this without throwing the thread into a complete tangent, but I will say that perceived lack of understanding of the material, may be attributed to factors such as untrained teachers, unhelpful administration, lack of prep time, new programs introduced on a whim by the district, etc., etc. There are a lot of politics in teaching, and much of it boils down to money, just like anything else. Sadly, I can tell you first hand that the, "We want the best for the kids" motto shouted by everyone is akin to politicians promising to lower your taxes, if you vote for them.

As I said, I couldn't even begin to tell you what goes on. It could very well be a forum in itself, and we're just lucky that most of our parents aren't all that interested. If they were, and they asked questions, we'd be in big trouble.

I don't doubt that most people's philosophy of education differs from what they are experiencing or have experienced. I know I don't teach what/how I want to teach. I also don't doubt that there are people who shouldn't be the classroom, as even if they are intelligent, they are unable to convey the information they know, and the concepts that student 'must' (questionable) know. There are lots of (put nicely) not so intelligent seeming people in the world. Some of them are police officers who carry guns. Some of them are doctors, some of them are grocery clerks. Some of them are web hosts. Moral: Be thankful web hosts don't carry guns. :D

Chicken, I read there was a forum like that just for 1 school that was created by a student. It boomed, and the teachers got extremely pissed off. They were threatened that the whole high school would not receive college recommendations if the site wasn't taken down.

BTW, it was ON magazine by Time

I'm sure one for teachers about the administration and district policies wouldn't go over all that well either, heh.

Well i've been doing this since I was 13, i'm now 19, I worked in a lot of other stuff before I got into webhosting 6 years ago. Let me tell you, i'm still dumb compared to some of the sysadmins I hired. but then again thats why I hired them :).

Nothing can replace experience and no book, webpage, or person can explain or prepare you for situations you will encounter. In my 6 years i've encountered so much stuff I could probabbly write a book on *Unusual things webhosts will encounter while doing business* .

Age doesn't necessarily matter, but the experience does, althou generally experience only comes with age. So its not that being young isn't good, its that being young usually means little experiences and thus the likleness that your not going to know the ins and outs of what your currently doing.

Originally posted by cperciva

I think that if teachers were required to, every few years, write an examination in the course(s) they were teaching, the results would be quite frightening, while the standard of teaching would improve immeasurably.


I don't see that happening. First off, students should have quality text books. I have seen many examples in the New Jersey educational system with bad ( or need's updating ) facts in science and history.

Second, teachers that care about the pride and quality of their work. My hobby is fishing, I take great pride in heaving a lure to go distance on a cast or laying the line out perfectly. There have been times when I was the only one reeling anything in while others were just sitting there. Teachers should do the same, practice their speaches, sell the text, give out that KNOWLEDGE.

Teachers currently write their own exams every year. I don't recall if the standards improved over time ( certain types of test seemed easy to me ). What is needed is Peer review from an outside source.

Third, parents that make their kids study and learn.

-Michael / sqposter

Whoa, I think this thread got a little carried away from there.

I am only 19, graduated HS when I was 16, and when I left HS I wanted to be something real quick because I know after I leave home I will have nothing. So I started fixing computers around my town and made pertty damm good money to start my DSL buisness. I guess these people want to do the same, want to be somebody real quick. But I feel anger for those who are just there for the money, not for the fun and a choice of success. These people are the ones who make the hosting industry in ruins, and yet still needs to be fixed.

You just have to ask yourself how much you want to support. If you are an ISP you should look at a business model like rackshacks or someplace. Selling bandwidth you have to balance your pipes. Shoot I still don't get how cheap they are.

Originally posted by ************

yes what i provide for 8 dollars does'nt leave much margin up for tons of profits

but i figure if i offer at such a good deal i can get lots of customers and more servers and the more customers you have a only a few dollars profit a month the more make and the bigger customer database you have :)



Yes, that's all good and everything but you are very much mistaken if you think it's that easy. I hope you don't think that every hosting customer you get will be self maintained and they will never need support. Yes, you can give great, fast, instant support when you have 100 people or less. What happens if you had 1000 customers? And you started getting 50 calls a day for support? What about 100 calls a day? Add that to the email support requests. Ok, so now you hire someone because you're making a lot of money at $5 or so profit per customer but you have to have another phone line because one line can't support 100 calls... 2 can't handle 100 or more calls. Then customers start leaving because of taking longer than they are used to for support. Then they start telling their friends support takes too long don't go with this company. But yes you can make a profit... about the kind of profit you make working at McDonalds.... because I'm sure you haven't figured in taxes. Yes you can get by without taxes for awhile but as soon as some business customers start writing their hosting off on taxes and the IRS contacts you 3-4 years down the road and wants tax money for an entire worths or more of business then that sucks.

I'm not bashing your plan but you don't find many dirt cheap hosts that have been around for MORE than a year. There are exceptions in the $8+range (which you said you're doing so good) but it's not many out of the thousands of hosts that try it. Me.... I'm content with my 400+ customers.. out of which about 20% pay $10/month for 3 gigs of traffic, about 60% pay $25/month for 8gigs of traffic and about 20% that pay $45/month for 15 gigs of traffic. Compare that to each customer paying $8/month

My main question is though... why charge so little when you don't have to?

Originally posted by rastoma


My main question is though... why charge so little when you don't have to?

Thank YOU. Incase anybody doesn't tell you, YOU are justified in those nice prices.

You can cover most of your business when the margins are thicker. And give the customer Kick ass service.

I think that the pricing you place into the market has greatr room to work with and not giving away the store.

15megs = $ 45.00 I like that. I like that a lot. That's almost the perfect number I had at that bandwidth range ( I came up with 38.75 as the nice price).

I think I'm going to up it to your number, and discount it down for the 1 year contract people.

-Sqposter / Michael

Originally posted by sqposter

15megs = $ 45.00 I like that. I like that a lot. That's almost the perfect number I had at that bandwidth range ( I came up with 38.75 as the nice price).

I think I'm going to up it to your number, and discount it down for the 1 year contract people.

Glad to hear somebody agrees with me :)
Trust me, for as many people out there that don't care about service just because they don't want to pay over $3 for hosting, there are just as many customers if not more that WANT to pay more for hosting because of the quality of the hosting they receive. And if someone has 15 gigs of bandwidth already or close to it, their site USUALLY is generating some income so $45 is nothing to them.

That's also 'classified' as the ecommerce plan (yes they can use a shopping cart with any plan) but being classfied as ecommerce I go out of my way a little more than usual helping them setup the shopping cart and I also don't have to nitpick about bandwidth. If they go over a couple of gigs I always let them know and say something like "normally there is a charge for overage but we like to give our customers a little room to breath so we are giving you the extra bandwidth for free this month... but do remember to keep an eye on it and if/when it starts to significantly increase then we'll work out a plan that's acceptible with you".

That way they feel special and appreciate you even more.

Plus from time to time since I have some nice cusion there I can afford to add a few cheap $5/month plans as a promotion like on the boards here and stuff.

Robin

Originally posted by sqposte:
Chicken, I read there was a forum like that just for 1 school that was created by a student. It boomed, and the teachers got extremely pissed off. They were threatened that the whole high school would not receive college recommendations if the site wasn't taken down.

BTW, it was ON magazine by Time

I think your talking about my school, Stuyvesant High School.

The site is Stuynet.com. Gary He (the webmaster) created a student review of various teachers. The teachers, of course, couldn't maintain a sense of professionalism and threatened him with libel suits and withholding recommendations

[WARNING RANT!! WARNING RANT!!]
The funny thing is, many colleges have booklets which describe each teachers' quirks, grading style, and has basically a complete review on them, yet you dont see it making the newspapers. If only the teachers at my school could get their head out of their arse. They need to improve their teaching or hit the road.

The teachers at my school are horrible. I calculated I have 15 minutes for each subject's HW if I want to get the proper 9 and 1/4 hours of sleep. The avg HW time for each subject is 1.33 hours. I'm up until 1am every damn morning doing homework and then the teachers wonder why half the class is asleep and the other half brain dead. The lack of sleep probably explains why everyone in school is short and why I've stopped growing. We cannot even maintain a minimal social life on the weekdays. I've met alumni who've said Stuy was harder than college. All this work is for what? There are too many qualified applicants in my school. A 95 average doesn't even place in the top decile. I wish I lived in some farm town in Iowa or some hick town in Western Virginia. Or maybe I should write down I'm from across the border.

Almost every teacher gives TWO EXAMS A WEEK WITH HOMEWORK THE NIGHT BEFORE! I have 8 plus exams every week. Today they handed a sheet out about academic honesty. LMFAO. Academic honesty? There is no way in hell you're getting through Stuy without cheating, unless you can live with 1 hour of sleep a night and 0 social life.

We have a saying, choose 2 of 3, friend/social life, grades, sleep.

Maybe it should be changed to choose 1 of 3.
[End Rant]

Regards,
Eugene



P.S. Don't you think Gary's bleached hair makes him resemble a pineapple?

Originally posted by Chicken

You can say teenagers should be given a chance... -but they are, at age 18.

I think there should be some exams (even psychological exams) which if you pass them you have that chance.

I think age is not a major criterion for this.

About teachers: if people are good in some field, they work in that field, they doesn't teach in that field. Especially true for CS.

I'm glad i moved out of New York like 4.5 years ago. They put me in this annoying A.C.E. program for middle school (Junior High) and it was almost the same deal... Damn crazy teachers... I am now in Dublin, OH and we get alot of homework but we manage to finish it very fast.

BTW, I'm in Dublin Scioto High School so we get a 32 in TV in every room (two for the lunch room) including pointless places like the art room. We get cable in those TV's... We are forced to use mac's but they're like high powered g4's for all the computer classes (Computer Graphics, intro+advanced c++, etc...). The non computer classes are filled with imacs...

Also about the cheap hosts thing. How about shoving 300 little websites (like those 20 meg ones with only 300 mb transfer per month) in a 1 ghz amd duron and 512-1024 megs of memory rackshack.net server and charging $34.95 with a hidden service charge of $5.95?

That's about $12,000 a year with rackshack.net costing $1500 for first year (including the $299 setup fee).

Also a cheap 4.95 per month extra for "premium" aka normal support.

Sure it sounds annoying to the customer, someone's gotta start it right? In a couple of years when you guys are at your throats (let's hope this doesn't happen and the number of website keep on increasing like it has) you might have to employ these seeming deceptive methods.

Okay this is getting annoying I am like 23, am I the oldest person in this forum or what. Snot nose kids should not be running a webhosting biz. They can not be held legally responsible if they do something that seriously hurts a client. They are leading to the distruction of this business. I may get some flame for this, but I do not care. Kiddies go to school read about edison, schwartz and do your homework. When you dry off behind the ears, then come in. Webhosting is still going to be around for years to come.
There should be a cutoff age of at least 18 years old. :cool:

Originally posted by hostgold
Okay this is getting annoying I am like 23, am I the oldest person in this forum or what. Snot nose kids should not be running a webhosting biz. They can not be held legally responsible if they do something that seriously hurts a client. They are leading to the distruction of this business. I may get some flame for this, but I do not care. Kiddies go to school read about edison, schwartz and do your homework. When you dry off behind the ears, then come in. Webhosting is still going to be around for years to come.
There should be a cutoff age of at least 18 years old. :cool:

I totally agree with this! :mad:

I don't like the way that hostgold said it, but I have to agree with his point too. In the United States anyway, a minor's contracts are voidable (except for necessary food, clothing, shelter, or medical care). Which means at any time before the age of majority, the minor can void the contract. But only the minor has the right to void the contract, and not the other party. And often times the minor can void the contract without having to return any consideration that the minor received, if the minor no longer has possesion of the consideration.

If you're a minor and doing business, you should definitely let your clients know, even if you're just sticking with lemonade stands.

Or better yet, involve your parents in your life for a change. Let them own the business, and you can manage it for them. IMHO.

Just to let you know that im only 17 and doing better than a lot of other hosts ran by people over 18. So you think i shouldnt of started Splash Host just because im not 18?

Umm... just so you know that suggestion I made isn't something I expect people to actually do. I wouldn't do it myself... Just a scenario I thought up that may work. Basically charge extra for premium support. That way most people who signs up for the ultra cheap service won't expect top of the line support and won't think negatively for it.

I don't see any major problems with those under 18 for hosting... But if I were to do it (planning on doing a little hosting on the side to cover costs) in the future it won't be a large thing until after I finish college.

Hostgold, you are out of line and you need to be tarred and feathered, I am six years old and am snarter than any gownup, i may had only just this year made it to frst great butt, i have ben runnin host company tree yeers. Me daddy gave me asses two his cretit cart bye leeving dem on de bed. I ordered surfer from rackhack and I have 289 cus cus cusomer cutsomer... clients. It is not fair dat you judge us by our age. same on you, i am going to tell me mommy and shee goin to beet u up.

While I am not a teenager but am 29, I just want to put my 2 cents into this thread.

On the note someone made about having to be a larger company
to provide quality service. I disagree with this completely.

We are just no embarking on web hosting, but have been in business for over 2 years
offerring web development, programming and merchant services.

We are a small company, if ran properly and planeed right you can
provide a HIGHER level of support than a larger coorperation.

MORE PERSONAL ATTENTION. Which as many know is important to most of us.

Larger coorperations do not nessarily mean better support or that
you will not have any problems. Example: ***** large company
terrible support with tons of problems. Just to list one.

And for errors in spelling and grammer. HA, I am not very good at
spelling but that is what a copy editor is for.

Just my 2 cents there is more I scould add but I need to get back to work.

Regards,
Ray

Originally posted by jeremiah23
Hostgold, you are out of line and you need to be tarred and feathered, I am six years old and am snarter than any gownup, i may had only just this year made it to frst great butt, i have ben runnin host company tree yeers. Me daddy gave me asses two his cretit cart bye leeving dem on de bed. I ordered surfer from rackhack and I have 289 cus cus cusomer cutsomer... clients. It is not fair dat you judge us by our age. same on you, i am going to tell me mommy and shee goin to beet u up.

OMG... tell me your joking

Very cute... maybe you should read this article Randy Sofia - Freehostin.com (http://www.rockawave.com/news/2000/0819/Society&Community/Teen_Entreprenuer0819.html)
Don't assume because a person is young he doesn't know what he's doing. M$, Yahoo, and many other companies were started by relatively young entrepreneurs. I especially dislike hypocrites who say they know a young person and he/she can do amazing things on the pc but then they turn around and say a teenager can't run a business relating to pcs.

Then again some ideas are so far fetched you have to wonder what the creator was thinking. Take a business plan competition I won at Goldman Sachs. One group had a plan for a multimillion dollar sports complex (not unlike Chelsea Piers) yet they had done no research on possible locations and their pricing agreement was garbage.

I know Randy personally, he sold his company to NoMonthlyFees for a large 6 digit sum. His new company is GradePal.com His work has always been nothing short of amazing, and he provided top notch support. I was greatly saddened when he sold his company to NMF as they suck derriere.
He was 17.


Regards,

Hello all-

I was going to stay out of this, but the more I read those "teachers are getting dumber"--or is that dummer?-- and "most teenagers know more than the teacher" posts, the more amused I become. Speaking as a certified computer/tech teacher, I see this all the time. Yes, there are some teachers that should not be teaching the subject, (and I am sorry if you go to a school where this is happening), but do not assume you know more than all. If some were to visit my school district, it wouldn't take long for most students with this attitude to re-access their evaluation. We have constant, on-going training--however, it is unfortunately in Windoze networks. We even have one guy retired from the Pentagon, which specialized in computer security. And yes, we do have some duds--those which haven't attended training in 15 years. We are quickly moving those people.

99% of all students I teach come in with this attitude. They feel that because they can send email, use instant messenger, chat, and download mp3's, there is nothing they can be taught. They know it all already.

Oh, then there are the "hackers". You know, the ones that visit hacker.com and download programs which "bust" passwords. These are the most cocky ones. Just enough knowledge to be dangerous.

Or, how about the ones that "have an uncle that builds computers. He taught me everything there is to know"? I ask them to check out a computer to tell me if the video card is bad, and they reply, "Ummmmmmmm. How do I do that?"
Well, I thought you knew everything (although I never say it aloud).

How about the ones that can't get Windoze to start and can't check out the problem because the Norton's Utility cd won't work. "What's DOS? You can do that?"

Or the hotshot that found the "secret" to keeping his computer from crashing? His solution was to format the hard-drive every 2 days.

Most with "the attitude" ask, within a week of using a common browser for the internet, "Why can't we just use AOL?"

Sheesh, give me a break.

The students in this forum, such as the gentleman from SplashHost (which I have heard nothing but great things about), are most probably exceptions to the rule, not the rule, itself. This is based on my experience teaching thousands of students.

Oh, and that nasty little shot at resellers...many of the webhosts in this forum started out as resellers.

Okay, back to the subject.

-Lamar

That attitude is exactly why all these kids in some of my classes can really piss me off. My first post in the thread (or second) mentions the false beliefs of many teens that they are really good with computers.

I think it's partially because of the reaction we get from adults who really um don't know how to operate even the easiest os's (Win, Mac, etc.) very well.

Edit: When I said adults it's non computer subject related teachers. Except for my computer graphics teacher. :)

Originally posted by hostgold
Okay this is getting annoying I am like 23, am I the oldest person in this forum or what. Snot nose kids should not be running a webhosting biz. They can not be held legally responsible if they do something that seriously hurts a client. They are leading to the distruction of this business. I may get some flame for this, but I do not care. Kiddies go to school read about edison, schwartz and do your homework. When you dry off behind the ears, then come in. Webhosting is still going to be around for years to come.
There should be a cutoff age of at least 18 years old. :cool:

If the company is a corporation, the President, Treas.., Sec, and Vice Pres, can be held liable for the actions of the firm. Most people are not fully skilled at correctly setting up there corporate minutes.

At this point I think if the law let's a minor ( under the age of 18 ) create an .inc firm then the minor will be subject to those rules and be bound under the contracts they sign ( good enough to create an Inc. then good enough to make sure they can pay the pipers tune )

Also there is not enough case law ( that I know of ) to state a minor whom is a business owner, can not be taken to court. I'm seeing children tried as adults for crimes, why not for business crimes.

There might be cases ( I'm almost sure there is ) that A minor can sign a contract for themselves if they have representation.
Ever notice that young actors get sued and sometimes sue the studios. They get there own representation on the table to protect their interest.

oh by the way I've got a few more years on you, I still recall the c-64 at a bargin price of $ 896.00
- Sqposter / Michael

A few things you have to realize...

Teaching, in general, is a high burnout profession. Expectations of teachers are high, lots of pressure, lots of paperwork, politics, lots of on-going education (for teachers), they constantly have to keep up with the flavor of the month (district, gov. programs, etc. programs), all for less pay than you'd expect for having to deal with this.

Most days, I get about 1/2 hour break, if I'm lucky, and breaks are often thought of as time to fill out some document that the administration or coordinators need, etc., or go to a meeting. We also have to be 'on' all day, every day, without fail. This isn't a job where if you feel sick or tired, you can just hide in the corner until the day is over. It doesn't happen.

As I said, the burnout rate is high. Many crappy teachers were probably good, but you really can't do this job for more than 10 years. You teach the same thing over and over and just when you finally get everyone to understand even 1/2 of the information, the year ends and you start back at square one.

Add disipline problems, gangs, teacher as a replacement parent, and a host of other unrelated duties, and impossible to meet expectations from everyone, and you really have an interesting job that truthfully, not many people can do well.

If your job is to collect the garbage and drive the truck around the neighborhood, you will find that either people are able, or are not able to do it. With teaching, this is not the case. Day to day, year to year, your job changes dramatically, while staying the exact same. Ohhh, and the garbage man gets paid more.

By the way, its by far the best job I've ever had. :D

Chicken,

I didn't know you were a teacher that is great, need a teachers assistant :D still trying to get my masters myself. Having no luck with school work to much. Oh my the way my major isn't english or any field dealing with grammer.